it excuse it from being a libell being not orderly in Parliament propounded but disorderedly I might say seditiously spread abroade in corners to the defamation of thys whole state and Church of England not to any reformation But to satisfye your desire that would so gladly know what a libell is I will tell A libell what it is you in few words An infamous libell is that that is written in verse or in prose to y t infamy slander of any man to y ◠which the author dare not set his name This is an infamous libel it most aptly agréeth to y ◠booke called an Admonition to y e Parliamēt So that by this definition your obiectiō also of y e booke of y e Apocalips of the epistle to the Hebrues is soone answered for al those bookes are not libells which are published without the authours name but those whiche are published to the infamy or slander of others to the which the authors dare not set their names An ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets The third commeth of the same spirit that the secōd doth that is The libellers fitly compared to the Pharisies of the spirit of arrogancie and malice for it compareth godly wise zelous learned bishops to idolatrous Priestes to Pharisies but indeede the conditions qualities of the Phariseis do most aptly agree with y e authors of these Libels their adherēts for the Pharisies did al that they did to be seene of men sought the commēdation Description of a Pharisie of the common people as appeareth Math. 6. 23. so do they The Pharisies when they fasted disfigured their faces these walking in the streates hang downe their heads looke austerely and in company sigh muche and seldome or neuer laugh the Pharisies strayned out a gnat and swallowed downe a camell And these men think it an heynous offence to weare a cap or a surplisse but in slaundering and backbyting their brethren in rayling on them by libels in contemning of superiors and discrediting such as be in authoritie to be short in disquieting the Churche and state they haue no conscience The Phariseis separated themselues from the common sort of men as more holy and contemned the poore Publicanes as sinners And therefore some learned interpreters thinke that they be called Pharisaei quasi segregati quòd vitae sanctimonia à vulgi moribus vita separati essent non aliter Fost rus in dictionar hebraico atque monachi quos Chartusianos vocant They be called Phariseis as separated and deuided from the commō sort in holynes of life much like vnto the Monkes which be called Carthusians And Iosephus saith that they were called Phariseis bycause they seemed to be more holy than other and more Lib. 1 cap. 2. de bello iudaico Lib. antiquit Tom. 2. lib. 18. cap. 2. Tom. 2. lib. 17. cap. 3. cunningly to expound the law Also he saythe thys to be one propertie of theirs that whatsoeuer their owne reason perswadeth them Id sequuntur pertinaciter that they stubbornly follow Agayne he sayth that they be astutum hominum genus arrogans interdum Regibus quoque infestum c. A subtile kynde of men arrogant and sometimes enimies to kings and rulers These men separate themselues also from the congregation and will communicate with vs neither in prayers hearing the word nor sacraments they contemne and despise all those that be not of their sect as polluted and not worthy to be saluted or kept company with and therefore some of them meeting their old acquaintance being godly preachers haue not only refused to salute them but spit in their faces wishing the plague of God to light vpon them and saying that they were damned and that God had taken his spirit from them and all this bycause they did weare a cappe wherefore when they talke of Phariseis they plucke themselues by the noses But Lord what a straunge time is this when such as they be dare thus boldly publish libells against their superiours for mainteining and executing good and godly lawes The conclusion of this preface is a stoute presumptuous and malapert threatning in my opinion not to be suffered But howsoeuer your pen and tongue walketh yet I pray you holde your handes or else c. T. C. Pag. 177. Sect. 1. 2. Whereas M. Doctor compareth vs with the Phariseys and saythe we do all to be seene of men and that we hold downe our heads in the streates and straine at a gn t swallowing downe a Camell bycause they are in all mens knowledge I will leaue it to them to iudge of the truthe of those things Where he saith we seldome or neuer laugh it is not therefore that we thinke that it is not lawfull to laugh but that the considerations of the calamities of other churches and of the ruines of ours with the heauie iudgements of the Lord which hang ouer vs ought to turne our laughing into weeping besides that a man may laugh although he shew not his teeth And so Ierome Ierome ad Marcell ▪ in effect answereth in an epistle which he wrote where vpon occasion that certaine vsed the same accusation that M. Doctor doth he saith bycause we do not laugh with open mouth therefore we are counted sadde And where he saith we separate our selues from all congregations and are ennimies to prince and that we would seeme to be holyer thā other these and such like slaunders are answered before And if there be any that refuse to salute godly preachers or spit in any mans face or wish the plague of God to light vpon them or say that they be damned we defend not nor allow of any such behauioure And it is vnreasonable that the fault of one should be imputed to so many and to those which do as much mislike of it as M. Doctor himselfe And what needed M. Doctor to bid the authors of these exhortations to hold their hands where do they in a worde offer to strike Belike hys tongue is his owne and therefore he speaketh whatsoeuer he listeth Io. Whitgifte I shewe how much more aptely the qualities and conditions of the Phariseys agrée to you and to your sect than they can doe to suche as the authors of those pamplets call phariseys I know you can both laugh iest and give when you are among your selues and so coulde the Phariseys doo but I speake of youre behauior in open places and before suche as do not so well know you It is vnlyke that you mourne for the ruines or calamities of any Churches séeing that you séeke with might and mayne the confusion of this by stirring vp schismes and contentions in it That which I speake of separating your selues from the congregation c. is well knowne to be true in a number of you and the contemptuous behauiour of some of you pretending moste zeale towardes some of vs argueth what spirite you are of and what your
peruerting of the words and meaning of the Epistle vnlearned tonges we had rather a great deale they were vnlearned than they should be as theirs * which haue taught their tonges to speake falsly And how vnlearned soeuer Ierem. 9. 5 you would make the world beleeue that we and our tongs be I hope through the goodnesse of God they shall be learned ynough to defend the truth against all the learning that you shall be able to assault it with If those be (b) Slaunderous and cursed speakers be not the generation of Christe the generation of Christe whiche you cal viperouse kinde of men Esay 53. 8. knowe you that you haue not opened your mouth against earth but you haue set it agaynst heauen and for all indifferent iudgement it will easily perceiue that you are as farre from the spirit of * John Baptist as you are neere to his manner of speach which you vse whither it be affection Math. 3. 7 or blind zeale that we follow and are driuen by it will then appeare when the reasons of both sides being laid out shal be wayed indifferently Wheras you say that your dutie towards God the Queene hir Maiesty moued you to take this labour in hād it will fall out vpon the discourse that as you haue not serued the Lord God in this enterprise and work of yours so haue you done nothing lesse than any godly dutie which you owe vnto hir Maiestie so that the best that can be thought of you herein is that where in an euill matter you could yeld no dutie yet now you haue done that which you thoughte a duetie which iudgement we will so long keepe of you vntil you shall by oppugmng of a knowne truth declare the contrary which we hope will not be What truth it is that we impugne and you defēd let it in the name of God appeare by our seueral proofs and answers of both sides And as for the slanderous surmises wherby in your third and last consideration you set the Papists of the one side of vs and the Anabaptists of the other and vs in the middest reaching out our hands as it were to them both first it ought not to be straunge vnto vs myserable sinners seeing that the Lord hunselfe without all sinne was placed in the middest of two greeuous malefactours as though he had bin worse than they both Then for answer of these slanderous speaches I will referre the Reader to those places where these generall charges are giuen out in more particular manner Io. Whitgifte It is well that you are content to rest in his iudgement vntill the time come for so indéed ought we to do as the Apostle admonisheth 1. Cor. 4. Nolite ante tempus quicquam 1. Cor. 4 ▪ iudicare Iudge not before the time vntill the Lord come c. Your coniecture is a méere coniecture in déede for vndoubtedly these so many harde words of mine bitter reproches c. would not haue bin kept so secret of you if you coulde haue had them foorthcomming But be it so as you will néedes haue it yet haue I not in like bitternesse of speach spoken against them as Zuinglius Bucer Caluine Bullinger Gualter c. haue done against the like troublers of the Church who had notwithstanding all these pretences and clokes to shadow their contentions with which either you or the Authours of the Admonition do alleadge for they pretende the Glory of God the Puritie of Religion the safetie of the Church as Master Bucer witnesseth in his Coment ▪ vpon the Ephe. Cap. 4. Master Caluine in his booke aduersus Anabap. Gastius in his booke de exordio erroribus catabaptist Zuinglius in his booke called Ecclesi And Bullinger in his booke aduersus Anabaptist as I haue by setting downe their very wordes more at large declared in the second edition of my answere to the Admonition But graunt that for the loue of peace and hatred of contention and earnest zeale that I beare to this Church of Christ in England and dutifull affection to my souerayne I haue sometimes passed the bounds of modestie wherein I wil neyther accuse nor excuse my selfe yet are my speaches in bitternesse farre inferiour to those opprobries slanders and disdainefull words vttered either in the first or second Admonition or in your Replie And where haue you learned to espie a mote in another mans eye and not to sée the beame that is in your owne or what poynte of Rhetoricke do you call it to charge me in the beginning of your booke with that that you yourselfe most outrageously fall into sundry times almost in euery leafe or how vnwise are you to giue vnto me that councell which you yourselfe in no respect obserue But of both our modesties and manners of writing we must be contente that other men iudge which shall reade our bookes and therefore it is but in vaine either for you to accuse or me to excuse God graunt vs both the spirit of modestie and humilitie In my fourth reason by backbiters I meane all such as are ready to heare euill and speake euill of all men that be not of their iudgement and such as cease not continually to depraue those especially that be of any countenance and calling the which vice doth aboundantly reigne I will not say in all but in a great sort of your sect and those learned also I could name some which go from place to place for that purpose especially although vnder other pretences and in this qualitie they agrée with the Anabaptists as may appeare more plainly in the notes of the Anabaptists qualities conteined in the seconde edition of my answere to the Admonition to the which for breuities sake I referre you By vnlerned tongues I meane such of the common people as you haue deluded who in déede are caried away by a blinde and preposterous zeale and therefore the rather to be excused I know there be some both of the learned vnlearned sorte among you that haue milder spirites than the rest such I do not blante in this point I would other would follow their modestie As for the good that you and other woulde so gladly speake of me it euill appeareth in this booke where you do but deuise how possibly you may deface me in déede bothe you and some others if you considered your duties towardes mée and my dealings towardes you whilest you kepte your selues within your bondes haue small occasion to whisper of me in corners as you do or otherwise to deale so vnchristianly with me The euill that you know by me vtter it and spare not I desire no silence so that it be done where I may come to the answering of it And surely he that shall reade this your booke cannot but conceiue that if you knew any euill thing by me it would not be concealed But to all reproches I will answere as they come in order and proclayme defyance againste you for
it abroade gather disciples and make a new secte in shorte time we shal haue so many sectes and factions that Christe which scarce with greate payne and labor is brought to vnitie in euery church should be deuided againe into many partes VVherefore as you haue singularelie and vvith greate vvisdome and labour alreadie restored the true religion of Christe and banished all superstition and erroneous doctrine So likewise as the same Zuinglius sayeth in those perillous times wherein Satan seketh so busilie to In his epistle before his book de Baptismo entrap vs so that with newe cōtentions about external thinges he goeth about to trouble those whome the sworde of persecution eyther moued not or terrified not look well about you note the craftes and subtilties of them take hede of the pestilent windes of diuers doctrine let none trouble the gospell amongst you or set you at strife and variaunce And remember that as the streame that commeth dovvne from the highe mountaines being caused by much rayne and snovve taking eueriething that it meteth vvith before it the further it goeth the greater strengthe and the more aboundance of vvater it gathereth and first remoueth out of their places small stones after vvith greater violence casteth dovvne strong bridges yea huge and mightie rockes and encreaseth to that strength that nothing be it of neuer so greate force can resist or vvithstand it and in the end leueth nothing else behinde it quà m inutilem luctum quaerelas inanes miseram vastatorum agrorum segetum formam but vnprofitable mourning vaine complaintes and a miserable forme of the spoiled fieldes euen so contentionum pestis impia haeresis eodem modo progrediens non quicquam aliud quà m turpem calamito sam rerum faciem in florentissimo antè ecclesiae agro post se relinquit The plague of contention and wicked heresie proceding in like manner leaueth nothing after it but a miserable and pitifull face and shew of thinges in that place which was before the flourishing fielde of the church Consider vvhat the vviseman sayeth Prouerb 17. the beginning of stryfe is as one that openeth the waters It had bene vvell if the beginning had bene vvithstanded but seing that vvas neglected and rather by some furthered than stopped Yet novv it is time to make vp the breache This is sufficiēt to you vvhose vvisdome and carefulnesse is vvell knovvne to all those that be not vvith sinister affection blinded Those that be in the Ecclesiasticall state and desirous to kepe the peace of the Churche I haue onlie to admonishe that they be not discouraged from doing their duties bicause of the slaunderous reportes and vnchristian tauntes and contumelies that our vnquiet brethren lade them vvith knovving that it hath bene the vsuall practise of all sectaries and especiallie of Anabaptistes vvho counte them all as vvicked and vngodlie as vvorldlinges and men pleasers as idle and slouthfull that conspire not vvith them in their confused platforme I maye vse the same exhortation to you that M. Zuinglius vsed in the like time Nec quicquam vos moueant atroces illaecalumniae c. Let not those bitter reproches Zuinglius 〈◊〉 Ecclesiast and cauilling speaches wherewith the Anabaptistes and others studious of contention and discorde oppresse you moue you any thing at all bicause you rather followe Christ than them for although they call you wicked and infidels yet your selues best know what your cōfidence in God is and what is your meaning and purpose so that so often as they accuse you of impietie or of infidelitie so ofte do they minister manifest proofes vnto you that their spirite procedeth from the father of lyes And marueile not at those bitter contentions you knovve it to be true that the same Zuinglius also sayeth Nec enim aliud est communis illius hostis nostri ingenium c. This is the subtil e of our common enimie this is his manner herevnto doth he bend him selfe whollie and sleepeth not that as sone as the lord hath reuealed the light of his worde he also by and by soweth darnell this do almost all the epistles of S. Paule teach vs wherein it is manifestlie declared that there hath bene alwayes some men Pietatis simulatores potiùs quà m cultores rather feyners of holynes than embracers of it who for certaine externall and vnprofitable thinges doubt not to laye as it were greuous stumbling blockes to the doctrine of the gospell Onlie let vs be diligent in our vocation earnest against all kinde of enimies feruent in prayers for the preseruation of the Queenes maiestie and for the peace of the Church vvith the good successe of the Gospell and vigilant that errors be not published vvithout controlement and God vvill ere it be long if our sinnes deserue not the contrarie giue peace to this Church as he hath done to other disturbed in like manner To conclude I do charge all men before God and his Angells as they vvil ansvvere at the daye of iudgement that vnder the pretence of zeale they seeke not the spoyle of the Church vnder the colour of perfection they vvorke not confusion vnder the cloake of simplicitie they couer not pride ambition vayneglorie arrogancie vnder the outvvarde shevve of godlinesse they nourish not contempt of magistrates popularitie Anabaptistrie and sundrie others pernicious and pestilent errors The Lord make vs thankful for his infinite mercies and singular goodnesse bestovved vpon vs in thus long continuing his gospell preseruing our most gracious and louing Queene and ouerthrovving all the conspiracies and deuises that the diuell hath hetherto inuented to molest this state and Church ¶ A note of such dangerous pointes of doctrine as are auouched by T. C. in his Replie and quoted as they are to be founde in this Booke HE sayth that Certeine of the things which we stande vpon are suche as if euery heare of out heade were a life we ought to aforde them for the defense of them whereby he woulde insinuate that this Church of England doth mainteine some dānable doctrine pag. 44. 2 He sayth that if the Church be considered in the whole and generall gouernment and outwarde pollicie of it it may be pure and vnspotted whiche smelleth of an Anabaptisticall fansie pag. 50. 3 He affirmeth that many things are both commaunded and forbidden of which there is no expresse mention in the word which are as necessarily to be followed or auoyded as those whereof expresse mention is made which soundeth to the confirmation of the very foundation of all Papistrie pag. 77. 4 He holdeth that the doctrine of free will is not repugnant to saluation and yet is it a doctrine cleane contrarie to frée iustification by Christe pag. 82. 5 He saythe that all the commaundements of God and of the Apostles are needefull for our saluation which is a notorious error pag. 103. 6 He vtterly denyeth that any magistrate can faue the life of blasphemers contemptuous and stubborne I dolaters
ministers which caused it to bee celebrated when the people returned out of their captiuitie for it appeareth in the booke of Nehemias that the feast of Tabernacles which was commaunded of 8. Chap. the Lorde to be celebrated euery yeare was * This is a manifest vntruth as shall appeare not celebrated from the days of Iosua the sonne of Nun vntill the returne of the people from their captiuitie And yet were there in this space dysiers both iudges and kings both priests and Prophets singularly zealous and learned If therefore the omitting of so necessary a thing so many hundreth yeares by such godly zelous learned persons could not bring any prescription against the truth the lacke of this necessary discipline by the space of 30. yeares through the ouersight of a fewe if they be compared with that multitude ought not to be alleadged to keepe it out of the Church Io. Whitgifte Surely the inequalitie of the persons and great difference betwixt them both in godlynesse zeale learning experience and age though it séeme a small matter too some yet it ought to be well considered for it is well knowne that the firste sorte of men here mentioned did excell in all those forenamed qualities and haue continued in the same euen to the death and the latter sort many of them singular in learning zeale wisedome experience hauing also knowledge of other Churches refourmed more than you howsoeuer it pleaseth you and some of your companions vndutifully to contemne them wherefore as I saide this comparison is something and not so lightly to be estéemed as you would make the reader beléeue For my part I thinke the worse of you bycause you thinke so well of your selues that you dare be so bolde as not onely to compare your selues with them but to preferre your selues before them As for this Humilitie and abasing your selfe in saying that you cōfesse your selfe to be a great deale inferioure to the least of them He that will take paynes but to peruse your booke shall easly vnderstand that you thinke nothing lesse For truly your stile is so bigge and loftie and your tauntes such towards them and others that a man would thinke you not only to haue cast off all modestie but vtterly to haue forgotten all good manners ciuilitie and duetie But it is Rhetoricke common to you with other of your companions as appeareth in diuers places of the first Admonition and in the second throughout the whole which I would wish the reader to consider that he may thereby partly know and discerne your spirit But say you the omitting of these necessarie things ought to be no more preiudice agaynste them c. Surely if you can proue that they haue omitted any thing expressely against the commaundement of God then is it true that you say but if you cannot do so then do you vniustly charge these learned and godly martyrs But what if you haue abused the place in the. 8. Chapter of Nehemias What if you vnderstand it not truely The feast of Tabernacles was not so lōg omitted What if there can be no suche thing gathered of it as you woulde make the reader beléeue Shall I triumph ouer you and say that eyther you haue not read it or you do not vnderstand it or that you willingly and wittingly abuse it or that you receiued it in some notes from others as it pleaseth you to deale with me when no such occasion is offered vnto you I will not so requite you But this only I say that you haue not set downe the true sense of that place For the meaning is not that the feasts of Tabernacles was The true interpretation of the place alleadged out of the 8. of Nehemias not celebrated from the time of Iosua the sonne of Nun vnto that day which was almost a thousand yeares but that it was not celebrated in that manner that is with such solemnitie so great reioycing and gladnesse as the very wordes them selues declare both in the Hebrue text and in the best translations And so dothe Pellicane expounde that place who saith that these words since the time of Iosua the sonne of Nun. c. be spoken Pellican in 8. Nebe in the respect of the greatnesse of the ioy whiche then happened to the people Lyra also expoundeth the same place much after the same sort and presupposeth nothyng lesse than that the feasts were omitted all this time for he affirmeth that they were much more solemnly and with greater cost celebrated in the times of Dauid and Salomon Lyra in 8. Nebe therefore saith he the comparison is secundum quid proportionaliter for I vse hys words bycause in all this time sithence Iosua it is not read that the people were so generallie gathered togither in Hierusalem as we reade in the beginning of this Chapter that they were at this time and againe he saith that it was more for the people newly returned frō captiuitie to celebrate suche a feast with that solemnitie than it was to mightie kings and people being in prosperitie and setled in a kingdome to celebrate the same day with much more cost and solemnitie I might alledge other expositiors to the same effect neyther haue I read any that doth expound that place otherwise The like kind of speach we haue 2. Reg. 23. where it is said That there was no passouer 2. Reg. 23. holden like that which Iosias helde from the dayes of the Iudges that iudged Israell nor in all the days of the kings of Israell and the kings of Iuda whiche is only spoken in respect of the multitude and zeale of the people with the great preparation and not bycause the passouer was not all this time celebrated The like is also vsed 2. Chro. 2. Chro. 30. 26. 30. vers 26. euen so it is in this place for there is no doubt but that the feast of Tabernacles was celebrated both in Dauid and Salomons time and it is manifest that it was celebrated not long before this time as it is in plaine words expressed 1. Esdras 1. Esra cap. 3. vers 4. Ca. 3. vers 4. wherefore I might make much ado at this ouersight of yours or rather wilfull deprauing of the scriptures if I were delighted with that kind of confuting But though my learning be small and that I am ignoraunt both of Logicke and Philosophie and haue read so little in Diuinitie and you so mightie a man in the Scriptures and so profound in all kind of knowledge as you perswade your selfe to be yet you must be content here to be admonished of me that you haue abused this place and that it serueth not for your turne to proue those godly men which suffered martyrdome in Duéene Maries time to haue permitted any thing in this Churche of Englande after it was reformed expressely contrary to the commaundemente and word of God as you vntruly report So many good high priestes in the reygnes
the booke is not the cause of it neither yet a prescript forme of prayer but either the parties them selues that be vnlearned or they that do admitte them or else both This kinde of argument is vsuall in the Admonition There be other vnlearned and vnskilfull reasons vsed in thys booke which may easily be discerned euen of children And therfore I heere omit them Thus muche I thought good generally to write whiche beeing duly considered the booke it selfe needeth no other kind of coÌ„futation Io. Whitgifte To all this T. C. answereth nothing but onely to that of negatiues by comparison wherof I haue spoken before T. C. Fol. 1. Sect. 1. And to the ende the pithe and waight of M. Doctors arguments may be the better scene I will likewise giue the reader a say of them noting the places of the fallacions wherevnto they be referred Whiche I do agaynst my wil and compelled for that M. Doctor to discredite the truth would make his reader beleeue that those which thinke not as he dothe in these matters are not onely vnlearned but contemners of good learning In deede there is no great learning in these small things and they are of that sorte which although it be a great shame not to knowe yet it is no great commendation to haue knowledge of them Io. Whitgifte It had bin playne dealing to haue set downe M. Doctors argumentes in the same forme that he hath written them then might the reader better haue iudged of your collections but you were to wise for that for then should either your forgerie haue béene manyfest or else your booke should haue bin lesse by all this portion I séeke to discredite errors and contentious doctrine and not the truthe Suche learning there is euen in those small things that who so is ignorant of them may easily be deceyued bothe in speaking writing and reasoning T. C. Fol. 1. Sect. 2. In the. 40. page he reasoneth thus * An vntrue collection The ministers muste learne therefore they muste learne Cathechismes which is a fallacion of the consequent For although he that must learne a Cathechisme must learne yet it followeth not that whosoeuer must learne must byandby learne a Cathechisme Io. Whitgifte My words in that place be these If they that finde some want of learning in them selues or that be crepte into the ministerie vnlearned ither of their owne accorde or by commaundement of their ordinary reade and learne godly and learned Cathechismes they are to be commended and so is he that prouoketh them therevnto That Cathechisme which you in derision quote in the margent is a booke fit for you to learne also and I knowe no man so well learned but it may become him to read and learne that necessarie booke But some arrogant spirites there be that thinke them selues of all men b st learned and disdayne to learne of any That place of the fourth Chapter of the first to Timothie dothe not forbid a man to learne He that is a good and modest preacher will not disdayne as well to be taught as to teache Nowe howe any man can gather of these wordes any suche argument as T. C. frameth vnto him selfe let the Reader iudge He mighte well haue thus concluded Ministers that finde some want of learning in themselues c. ought to reade learne such bookes as may better instruct them Ergo they may reade and learne godly and learned Cathechismes And agayne M. Nowell his Cathechisme is godly and learned Ergo godly and learned men may reade and learne it Last of all a godly and modest Preacher will not disdayne aswell to be taught as to teache Ergo he will be aswell content to reade other mens bookes althoughe they be Cathechismes as he will be to haue other men to reade his Nowe I pray you iudge of the sequele of these reasons and compare them with T. C. his waywarde collection and tell me truely whether he dealeth simply or no. It is true that although a man must learne it followeth not that he must of necessitie learne a Cathechisme bicause there be other bookes besides Cathechismes to be learned wherby a man may be instructed but this is also true that if a man must learne he may learne Cathechismes Surely T. C. is driuen to a harde shifte when he is thus constrayned to feyne fallations where none are T. C. pag. 1. Sect. 3. In the. 55. page he reasoneth that for so muche as the ciuill Magistrate may appoynt some Another forged argument of T. C. his owne fram ng kynd of apparell therfore he may appoynt any and so the Popishe apparell which is ab eo quod est secundum quid ad id quod est simpliciter of whiche sorte he hath diuers others As women may baptize and preache bycause such a one and such a one dyd And the ministers execute ciuill gouernment bycause Elias and Samuell dyd Io. Whitgifte The words in that page be these May not therfore christian Magistrates in Christian common weales for order and decencie appoynt a seuerall kinde of apparell aswell to Ministers as to other states of men Iudges Sergeants Aldermen and Citizens are knowne by their apparell and why may not the Ministers be so likewise are they not vnder subiection be they not subiect to ciuill lawes and ordinances ought they not to obey their gouernours in al things not agaynst the worde of God If it had pleased T. C. to haue set aparte dallying he might haue séene that froÌ„ the last section of the. 54. page vnto the fourth section of the. 56. page my drift is to proue that Ministers may differ froÌ„ other by their apparel and that they may haue a distinct kinde of garments from lay men and that the ciuil Magistrate hath authoritie for order decencie to appoynt a seuerall kind of apparel to Ministers Now if he wold haue gathered truly he shuld haue framed his argumeÌ„t thus ChristiaÌ„ Magistrats haue authority in ChristiaÌ„ coÌ„moÌ„ weales for order deceÌ„cy to appoynt a sâ—ueral kind of apparell to Ministers Ergo â–ª Ministers may differ and be knowne froÌ„ other by their apparel Whether that the ciuil Magistrate may appoint them to weare suche apparell as was vsed in the Popes time or no that I handle at large euen from the. 4. section of the. 56. page to the portion of the Admonition in the 62. If T. C. had marked this myne order he woulde not so confounde him selfe and delude his Reader by suche vntrue collections of my arguments Touching the other examples of baptizing by women and ciuill offices in ecclesiasticall persons bicause he hathe not quoted the page whiche argueth he knoweth not where to finde them or that he is lothe the reader by searching the places should perceyue his corrupt dealing in the gathering I will deferre answering of them vntill I come where they or any similitude of them may be founde In the meane time with the first he chargeth me vntruly and
these opprobrious termes Proude generation tyrannous Lordships vngracious cruell Popelike wicked raygne proude enimies c. applied to brethren proceede not from the humble and mylde spirite of God but from the proude and arrogante spirite of Sathan Therefore by this vnseemely Preface it may appeare from what spirite the rest of this Admonition springeth Touching the crueltie and rigour Pretended persecution these men complayne of I shall neede to speake little beeing manyfest to all that be not with sinister affection blynded that lacke of seueritie is the principall cause of their licentious libertie But who seeth not their hypocrisie whiche woulde make the worlde beleeue that they are persecuted when they be wyth too muche lenitie punished for their vntollerable contempte of good lawes and other disordered dealings Nay suche is their peruersnesse or rather arrogancie that if they be debarred but from the least parte of their wyll and desire by and by they crie oute of crueltie and persecution it is to bee doubted what these men wyll doe when persecution commeth in deede whiche nowe make so muche of a little or rather of nothing As for this great bragge Stout brags For howe soeuer learned and many they seeme to be they shoulde and maye in this Realme finde owe to matche them and shame them too if they holde on as they haue begonne Satis arroganter dictum est and verifieth that to bee true that is commonly spoken of these kinde of men that is that they contemne all other in comparison of them selues that they thinke them selues onely zealous onely learned c. But it is possible that they maye be matched and I knowe no man of learning afrayde to encounter wyth them either by worde or wryting Touching the ministerie and gouernmente of the Churche what faultes there is to be therein founde we shall vnderstande when we come to their reasons God graunt vs humble and meeke spirites that godly vnitie may be maynteined in the Churche One thing I muste desire thee to note gentle Reader wherein the folly of these men maruellously appeareth howe they haue paynted the margent of their booke with quoting of Scriptures as though al were scripture they write when as in deed they abuse the scripture and thee For what one place of scripture is in all thys Preface alleaged to any purpose and yet how many is there quoted To proue that we must reade these two treatises without partialitie or blinde affection heere is noted in the margent 1. Thes. 5. Scriptures abused in the Admonition verse 21. Iam. 1. Iam. 2. The place to the Thessaloniās is this Trie all thinges and keepe that vvhiche is good The place of of the firste of Iames is this VVherfore my deare brethren let euery man be svvifte to heare slovve to speake and slovve to vvrathe And the seconde place of Iames is this My brethren haue not the faythe of our Lorde Iesus Christe in respecte of persons And to what purpose are these places alleaged what proue they or what neede is there to alleage them These Apostles in these places speake not of rayling Libels but of Scriptures wrested hearing the worde of God and iudging of matters of faythe according to the truthe and not to the persons To proue that tyrannous lordship can not stande with Christes kingdome they alleage the. 15 of Matth. and Luke 16. The place in the. 15. of Math. verse 23. is this But he ansvvered hir not a vvorde then came to him his Disciples and besought hym saying sende hir avvay for she cryeth after vs. In the sixeteenth of Luke it is thus Then he sayde vnto them ye are they vvhiche iustifie your selues before men but God knovveth your heartes for that vvhiche is highly esteemed among men is abhomination in the sighte of God I would gladly knowe howe their assertion and these two textes hang togither I allowe not tyrannous lordeship to stande with Chrystes kingdome But it may well inoughe for any thing in these two places to the contrarie Tyrannous lordship is not esteemed among men but hated ¶ The Replie vnto the answere of the Preface T. C. Pag. 9. Sect. 2. IT maye be sayde vnto you that whiche Aristotle sayde of a certayne Philosopher that he knew not his owne voyce For if that you had remēbred that which you do so often promise that you will not answere wordes but matter the Printer shoulde not haue gayned so muche men should not haue bestowed so muche money of a thing not of so greate value nor that whiche is more the worlde shoulde not bee burdened with vnprofitable writinges For howe often runninges out haue you to drawe the authors of the Admonition into hatred by inueyghing bitterly agaynst their vnlearnednesse maliciousnesse c. as it pleaseth you to terme it so that if there were any excesse of speeche in them you haue payde it agayne with measure pressed downe and running ouer Howe often charge you them with pride and arrogancie men that confesse once or twice of them selues their wante of skill and whiche professe nothing of them selues but onely a bare and naked knowledge of the truthe whiche maye be done with modestie euen of them which haue no learning And yet those that know them know that they are neither voyde of the knowledge of the tongues nor of the liberall Artes albeit they doe not make so many wordes of Pro. 11. v. 9 it as you Salomon saythe that he that is despised and hathe but one seruaunte is better than he whiche magnifieth and setteth out him selfe and yet wanteth bread whereby he meaneth that the man that hathe but a little and carieth his countenance accordingly is muche more to be esteeined than he whiche beareth a greate porte and hathe not to supporte it These brethren haue not vndertaken the knowledge of Logike Philosophie and other schoole learning whereof notwithstanding they are not destitute you in so often reproching them with the ignorance of them woulde make vs beleeue that you are so notable a Logician and Philosopher as if Logike and Philosophie had beene borne with you and shoulde dye with you when as it may appeare partely by that whiche hathe beene spoken and partely by those thinges that will fall out heereafter that you are better acquaynted with the names of Logike and Philosophie than with any sounde or substantiall knowledge of them But let that be the Uniuersities iudgement where you haue beene brought vp and are best knowne To returne to your vnprofitable excursions howe often times in your booke doe you pull at the Magistrates sworde and what sworde you woulde haue I leaue to the consideration of all men seeing you are not satisfied with their imprisonment wherevpon also dothe eusue the expense of that whiche they haue What matter is in all these that bringeth any helpe to the decision of these causes that are in question betweene vs howe many leaues haue you wasted in confuting of the quotations whiche
is no néede or a more vehement purgation than is conuenient for the disease or minister it out of time or giue one purgation for an other c. what rumbling and stirre soeuer follow in the bodye he may be iustly sayde to be the author and cause of them Do you not knowe what Zuinglius sayeth in his Ecclesiast speaking of Anabaptistes If they were sente of God Zuinglius i Ecclesi st Id m de bapti mo and endued with the spirite of loue they would haue construed in the beste parte those externall things c. And againe Christe neuer made any contention for externall thinges and in his booke de Baptismo They go aboute innouations of their owne priuate authoritie c. I vse M. Caluines iudgement as I vse the iudgement of other learned men neyther will I refuse any learned mans opinion in these controuersies that truly and wholly vnderstandeth the state of this Church and the grounde of all thinges vsed in it But I doubt how you will hereafter stand to this offer ¶ The opinion of Bucer of things indifferent Chap. 5. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag 29. Sect. 5. 6. Of the same iudgement in this matter is M. Bucer as it appeareth Bucer of things indifferent in his Epistle to M. Alasco these be his wordes If you vvill not admit such libertie and vse of vesture to this pure and holie Church bycause they haue no commaundement of the Lord nor example of it I doo not see hovv you can graunt to any Church that it may celebrate the Lordes Supper in the morning and in an open Churche especially consecrated to the Lorde that the Sacrament may be distributed to men kneeling or standing yea to vvomen as vvell as to men For vvee haue receiued of these things neither commaundement of the Lorde nor any example yea rather the Lorde gaue a contrarie example For in the euening and in a priuate house he did make his Supper and distributed the Sacramentes and that to men only and sitting at the table Haec Bucerus But to ende this matter is it not as lawfull for a godlie Prince with the aduise and consent of godlie and lerned Bishops and other of the wysest to make orders in the Church and lawes Ecclesiasticall as it is for euery priuate man to vse what maner and forme of seruice he list and other order aud discipline in his own parish which these men seeke and striue to doe T. C. Page 20. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Pag. 21. Sect. 1. And as for Peter Martyr and Bucer and Musculus and Bullinger Gualter and Hemingius and the rest of the late writers by citing of whome you woulde gyue to vnderstande that they are agaynste vs in these matters there is set downe in the latter ende of this booke their seuerall iudgements of the moste of these thinges whiche are in controuersie whereby it maye appeare that if they haue spoken one woorde agaynste vs they haue You do learned mē great iniury in accusing thē of contrarietie spoken two for vs. And whereas they haue written as it is said and alieadged in their priuate letters to their friends agaynst some of these causes it may appeare that they haue in their works published to the whole world that they confirme the same causes So that if they wrote any such things they shall be found not so much to haue dissented from vs as from themselues and therefore we appeale from themselues vnto themselues and from their priuate notes and letters to their publike writings as more autenticall You laboure still in the fire that is vnprofitable to bring M. Bucer his Epistle to proue that the Church may order thinges whereof there is no particular and expressed commaundement for there is none denieth it neyther is this saying that all things are to be done in the Church according to the rule of the word of God any thing repugnant vnto this that the Church may ordeyne certayne things according to the word of God But if this Epistle and others of M. Bucers with his notes vpon the booke of common prayer which are so often cited and certaine Epistles of M. Peter Martyr were neuer printed as (1) You cannot but vnderstand that they are printed I cannot vnderstand they were then besides that you do vs iniury which go about to preiudice our cause by the testimonies of them whiche we can neyther heare nor see being kepte close in your study you also do your cause much more iniurie whilest you betray the pouertie and nakednesse of it being fame to ransacke and ruffle vp euery darke corner to find something to couer it with Therefore it were good before you tooke any benefyte of them to let them come foorthe and speake their owne testimonies in their owne language and full out For now you giue men occasion to thinke that there are some other thinges in their Epistles whiche you would be loth the world should know for feare of fall of that which you would gladly keepe There is (2) What say you than to the. 14. reason of the Admonition then ministers were not so tyed to any forme of prayers c. no man that sayth that it ought to be permitted to euery person in the Churche where he is minister to haue such order or discipline or to vse such seruice as he listeth no man seeketh for it But to haue the order which God hathe left in those things which the word precisely appoynteth and in other things to vse that which shall be according to the rules of S. Paule before recited agreed by the Church aud confirmed by the prince And wheras you haue euer hitherto giuen the ordering of these things to the Church how come you now to (3) An vn truth for I gyue it not to the Byshops only but to a godly Prince with the aduice and consent of godly and learned Byshops and other of the wisest ascribe it to the Byshops you meane I am sure the Byshops as we call Byshops here in England whereby you fall into the opinion of the Papists vnawares whiche when they haue spoken many things of the Churche inagnifically at the last they bring it now to the doctours of the Church now to Byshops As for me although I doubt not but there be many good men of the Byshops and very learned also and therefore very meete to be admitted into that consultation whereinit shall be considered what things are good in the Church yet in respect of that office and calling of a Byshop which they now exercise I thinke that euery godly learned minister and pastour of the Churche hath more interest and righte in respect of his office to be at that consultation then any Byshop or Archbishop in the Realme for as much as he hath an ordinarie calling of God and function appoynted in the scriptures which he exerciseth and the other hath not But how this authoritie perteyning to the
so that that reason may shewe what Aaron thought of it and this what was the opinion of the people I would haue you to deale sincerely in alleaging of the scriptures You put me ouer to the treatises of godly newe wryters which doe refuse this distinction c. But you neither name those wryters vnto me nor let me vnderstande where to finde those treatises whiche maketh me suspecte that you neyther knowe whose nor where they be but the matter is not greate I doe as muche mislike that distinction of the Papistes and the intent of it as any man dothe neyther doe I goe aboute to excuse them from wycked and without repentance and Gods singular mercy damnable Idolatrie But yet doe I saye the Idolatrie bothe of the Iewes and of the Gentiles for the causes by me alleaged to be muche greater For there Three kindes of Idolatrie Martyr in Iud. 2. Musculus in Lo. com in expla 1. praecept are thrée kyndes of Idolatrie One is when the true God is worshipped by other meanes and wayes than he hathe prescribed or woulde be worshipped The other is when the true God is worshipped togither wyth false Gods 2. Regum 17. The thirde is when we worship false Gods eyther in harte and mynde or in externall creatures liuing or dead and altogither forget the worshippe of the true God All these thrée kindes are detestable but the first is the least and the laste is the worste in the whiche kinde the Israelites sundrie tymes offended as is manifest in the places before mentioned The Papistes worship God otherwyse than his will is and otherwise than he hathe prescribed almoste in all poyntes of their worship they also giue to the creature that whiche is due to the Creator and sinne agaynst the first table yet are they not for ought that I can see or learne in the thirde kinde of Idolatrie and therfore if they repent vnfaynedly they are not to be caste either out of the Churche or out of the ministerie The Papistes haue little cause to thanke me or to fée me for any thing that I haue spoken in their behalfe as yet you sée that I place them among wicked and damnable Idolaters My defense is of those that haue bin Papistes and be not and for no other for them I speake my conscience according to my poore knowledge take it as you please Of Ministers learning of Catechismes Chap. 3. Admonition The thirde Then (p) 1. Tim. 4. II they taught others nowe they muste be instructed themselues and therfore like yong children they (q) Ministers of London 〈◊〉 ioyned to learne M. Novvels C techisme muste learne Catechismes Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 40. Sect. 3. 4. 5. Pag ▪ 41 ▪ Sect. 1. 2. God be thanked there is a great number of Ministers that can teach others and may be your scholemasters in al kinde of learning except you haue more than you vtter in these treatises If they that finde some want of learning in themselues or that be crepte into the ministerie vnlearned either of their owne accord or by commaundement of their Ordinarie reade and learne godly and learned Catechismes they are to be commended and so is he that prouoketh them therevnto That Catechisme whiche you in derision quote in the margent is a booke fit for you to learne also and I knowe no man so well learned but it may become him to read and learne that learned and necessarie booke But some arrogant spirites there be that thinke them selues of all men best learned and disdayne to learne of any That place of the fourth chapter of the first to Timothie doth not forbid a man to learne He that is a good and modest preacher will not disdayne as well to be taught as to teache T. C. Pag. 28. Sect. 2. 3. What shoulde become of the people in the meane season whilest they learne their Catechisme and when they haue learned it they are no more fit to be Ministers and to teache other than he that hath learned his Accidence is meete to set vp a schole And it can not be defended but it was a grosse ouersighte to enioyne ministers to learne a Catechisme It were muche to compell them to reade it And if a man would haue dec amed agaynst the ignorance of the moste parte of the ministers three whole dayes togither he coulde not haue sayde more agaynst them than that Canon which sendeth them to their A. B. C. and principles of their religion Howe knowe you that they quote the Catechisme in the margent in derision is there any sillable or letter that soundeth that wayes if you coniecture it because they haue set it in the margent you may as well say that they likewise quote the scriptures in derision beeing also placed there * It followeth euen as the rest of your argu ments do for it is your own and no mans else But howe followeth this It is meete that ministers shoulde learne euery day therefore it is meete they be enioyned to learne Catechismes it is meete they shoulde reade Catechismes therefore meete to learne them and be enioyned to learne them Is there nothing worthier the learning and profession of the Minister than to learne Catechismes or dothe a man learne those thinges alwayes which he readeth dothe he not reade things sometime to recorde the things that he hathe learned For bicause they say it is not meete that ministers should be enioyned to learne a Catechisme you conclude of their wordes that they woulde not haue a minister to learne or to reade any thing whiche is as farre from their meaning or wordes eyther as you are from the reasonable and vpright expounding of them Io. Whitgifte God be thanked the people néede not pyne awaye for lacke of foode they haue the Scriptures read vnto them they haue also profitable and fruitef ll Homilies they haue the Sacramentes rightly ministred and publyke prayers in a knowne tongue and sometyme God sendeth vnto them some well disposed preacher further to instructe them and the Curate is not so slothefull and carelesse but that he will also communicate with them that whiche he himselfe hathe by diligent reading learned Catechismes and that especially doe conteyne the groundes of religion and the principall poyntes of faythe and good lyfe and therefore not vnfitte or vnprofitable for any man to reade I know not what weightier matters they can learne than those that be conteyned in that booke excepte you thinke nothing waightie but suche matters as you nowe contende for and for the which you so muche disturbe the peace of the Churche It is well done to enioyne them to learne it and it shall be no disgracing no not to your selfe to reade it We doe not denie but that there be vnlearned Ministers in Englande and we thinke it no discredite at all to enioyne them to learne suche thinges as are moste profitable bothe for them to knowe and to teache vnto other To reade and
Churche Io. Whitgifte This reason is buylded vpon a false grounde for it is certaine that many pastors The seconde reason examined are dearely beloued of their flockes whiche neither were elected by them desired of them nor knowne vnto them before And I thinke verily that there is not one parish in England which doth the worse loue or reuerence their pastors in that respecte excepts such only as you and your adherents haue inflamed not only with the spirite of discorde but of disdayne and contempt also towards all lawes orders and persons that be not in all poyntes framed according to their imaginations But would you that a Papistical parish suche as there may be diuers in England should choose their Pastor that they might loue him Surely then would they not choose a Protestant Or do men alwayes continue in louing of those whom they haue chosen You know that experience teacheth the contrary so long only do they loue him as he pleaseth them and serueth their affections whiche bycause he neither can nor ought to doe therefore their affection of loue is soone quenched and they beginne to hate and to contemne hym and the rather bycause they did choose him For in that respecte they thinke him more bound to please them Chap. 5. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 33. Sect. 3. And if it should happen which may come to passe that any Church should desire or choose or consente vpon by the moste parte some that is vnmeete eyther for doctrine or manners then the ministers Elders of the other Churches round about should aduertise first and afterwarde as Where find 〈◊〉 this maner and forme in the 〈◊〉 occasion shoulde serue sharpely and seuerely charge that they forbeare suche election or if it be made that they confirme it not by suffering him to exercise any ministerie And if eyther the Churches rounde about do fayle of this duetie or the Churche whiche is admonished rest not in theyr admonition then to bring it to the next Synode and if it rest not therin then the Prince or Magistrate whiche muste see that nothyng in the churches be disorderly and wickedly done ought to driue that Churche from that election to an other which is conuenient Now I will examine the reasons whiche you adde to proue that althoughe in times paste the churche choosed theyr ministers yet now it must be otherwyse Io. Whitgifte What scripture haue you to proue that if the Parishes shoulde choose an vnmeete T. C. in pretending scripture bringeth in that which hath no warrante in scripture minister then the ministers and elders of other Churches should take in hande the matter c. and if they wyll not then to bring it to the nexte Synode if that wyll not serue then that the Prince or Magistrate must and ought to driue that Churche from that election to an other more conuenient Where haue you I say either commaundement or example of any suche order in the whole scripture will you of your owne head and brayne take vpon you to prescribe a rule besides all Scripture And dare you so boldly condemne an order taken by the common consent of so great a Churche as thys of Englande is bycause it is not in all poyntes correspondent to some examples in the scripture Men may sée if they be not blynde what your meaning is You thinke peraduenture that if this were once brought to passe it should not be long or you were placed somewhere according to your desyre The like pollicie and practise hath bin vsed by others looke Zuinglius in his Ecclesi But to come to a néerer examination of this your deuise First you haue forgotten T. C. contrarie to himself yourselfe for a little before you proued by that which S. Paul sayth 1. Cor. 2. Spiritulis omnia dijudicat he that is spirituall discerneth all thyngs c. That they were spirituall Pag. 33. Sect. and therefore coulde not be without discretion of ordering them selues in choosing their pastor and nowe you say if any churche shoulde by the most part choose some vnmeet man c. Whereby you confessr that they maye be deceyued contrarie to your former wordes Secondly your order is most vnperfitte full of intollerable inconueniences for The order which T. C. prescribeth vn perfecte full of inconueniences who shall complaine of this election to other Churches And when cōplaint is made who shall call them togither when they be called togither what order shal be taken for the auoyding of confusion tumult or who shal beare their charges or in what place shal they méete or how often Likewise If the churches round about do faile in this duetie c. who shall bring it to the next Synode or who shall summon the Synode or in what place shal it be kept or at what stay shall the parishes be for a pastor vntill the matter be determined or who shal complaine to y e Prince and magistrate or what if the Prince will not driue them to a new election but allow of the olde Do you not sée of what disorder contentions tumults inconueniences this your disordered order would be the cause For how many méetings of Churches should we haue how many Synodes what parts takyng what running vp and downe what losse of time what cause of offence what quarels yea what not But amongst al other things you haue here appoynted to y e Prince or magistrate The Princes authoritie diminished and hir troubles encreased a good office that he must stand and behold al this and in the end only driue the parish to a newe election which also you say that he must doe Throughout your whole booke you take from the ciuil Magistrate his whole authoritie in ecclesiasticall matters giue vnto him no more as I haue before declared than the very Papistes doe that is potestatem facti and not potestatem iuris For he muste onely at your commaundement execute suche lawes and orders as you and your Seniors haue deuised Agayne considering the great number of Parishes in this realme the varietie of mens myndes the diuersitie of opinions in Religion and the generall inclination in the heartes of men to dissent and disagrée among them selues it can not be but that in shorte space the Prince shoulde be ouerpressed and surcharged with the composing and ordering of these confused and tumultuous elections so that she muste be constrayned to let passe the care of the gouernment of the common wealthe and be wholly troubled with hearing and redressing these matters Wherefore to conclude if you haue no better reasons for your popular elections than these I thinke it will be long before you can persuade any reasonable or wyse man to subscribe vnto it But nowe to the defense of my owne reasons The diuersitie betwixte the Apostles tymes and oures requireth a diuers kinde of gouernment and of ordeyning Ministers Chapter 6. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag.
by the Admonition to proue that ministers were knowen by voice learning and doctrine and you transferre them to apparell that eyther Samuel nor the Apostles nor our Sauioure Christ did weare any distinct apparell from others which liued in their times For if Samuell being then the seer had had a seuerall apparell whiche was proper to the seers it is not like that Saule woulde haue asked of himselfe where his house was And if the Apostles had worne a seuerall apparell from the 〈◊〉 they should not haue bin esteemed by so generall and vncertaine a note as of speaking somewhat brodely or as I may terme it Northēly for it had bin a surer note to haue said thou art one of his Apostles bycanse none weareth this apparel but his Apostles where there was a great number that spake Galilean like which were not of his Apostles nor disciples neyther But let these goe You say our sauioure Christ had a seuerall apparell bycause he had a cote without seame Assuredly you might vse lesse scornefulnesse in rehearsing of other mens arguments if for no other cause yet for this that they might take more pitie of yours For what an argument is this our fauioure Christ did weare an vnder garment which could not be well parted but with the spoyle or marring of it therefore he ware a seuerall apparell from the rest It is true Iohn Baptist had a seuerall apparell and to help you so had Elias but to this end that both by his vnwonted apparell and straunge diet which he vsed oflocusts and wild honey the extraordinaries of his ministerie might be set foorth and the people the rather moued to enquire of his office whome they sawe to varrie so much from the common customs of other men But ministers now haue no such extraordinarie functions therefore by that reason of yours they shoulde not be seuered from other men by any note of apparell You say you know that the cheefe notes of a minister are doctrine and learning if you meane that the distinction of apparell must supply the rest and that that also hath some force to commend their ministerie the Prophets and Apostles of our sautoure Christ left vs no (a) A table reason perfect patterne of a minister nor no sufficient glasse to dresse him by whereof (b) Vntrue as shall appeare the most part neuer vsed any such seuerall 〈◊〉 and none of them haue leit any commaundement of it Io. Whitgifte They be coniectures indéede and méere coniectures but without all shadowe of probabilitie The vnapt reasons of the Admonitors dissembled by T. C. or reason and if you will giue me leaue so to coniectnre I will proue any thing But such slender coniectures argueth the slendernesse of your proofes The Admonition vseth thōse places to proue that ministers were then knowen by voice learning and doctrine which how they or you can conclude of them I confesse that I cannot imagine excepte you will say that Samuell said vnto Saule I am the seer and they that stoode by said vnto Peter-euen thy speach bewrayeth thee therefore ministers were knowen by voice learning and doctrine which is asmuche as though you woulde saye Saule knew Samuell by Samuels owne report and a welchman is knowen by his tong rgo ministers are knowen by voyce ▪ learning and doctrine is not this a proper kind of reasoning is this the reuerence due to the scriptures thus 〈◊〉 to abuse them But say you if Samuell had had a seuerall apparell proper to the Seers it was not like that Saule would haue asked of him where his house was Nay you shoulde rather haue sayde that it is like that Saule being a rud y and brought vp only in keeping of cattell had neuer séene prophet before and therefore could not know Samuell what kind of apparell soeuer he had worne And that this is true that Saule did not know what a Séer meant and that he did neuer sée any before it may appeare in the same chapter And therefore saith M. Mart vpon that 18. verse of the. 9. Chapter Saule is so rude in P. Martyr the common wealth and such a straunger from ciuill affaires that he did not so muche as know Samuell although he were both iudge of the people and the magistrate and Prophet and the captaine of the host Moreouer M. Caluine vpon the. 23. of Math. proueth out of the. 13. Chapter of Zach. Prophets knowne by a distinct apparell Caluine Zach. 13. that the prophets were distinguished and knowne from other men by a certaine and peculiar forme of s. And the very wordes of the 〈◊〉 fourth verse of that Chapter of Zacharie doth euidently proue it for there the Lord aith In that day shall the Prophets be ashamed c. neyther shall they weare a rough garment to 〈◊〉 ▪ Upon the which words the note in the bible printed at Geneua is this They shall no more weare Prophets apparell to make their doctrine seeme more holy ▪ to the which also agreth M. 〈◊〉 vpon the same place and addeth these words This is the summe that thys kind of vesture was not reproued in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as some men 〈◊〉 do wrest this place to condemne long gownes and what soeuer doth not please their waywardnesse c. Whereby it is euident that the Prophets did weare and were knowen by a peculiar kind of garment If you enquire of the practise we haue diuers examples yea euen of Samuell whome we now haue in hand For one thing that 〈◊〉 Saul that he whome the wytch had raysed was Samuell was the de ption of his apparell 1. Sam. 28. There commeth vp an old man with a mantell vpon him ▪ And Saule perceyued 1. Sam. 28. that it was Samuel c. It cannot be thought that Saule conceyned this opinion bycause she named an olde man but bycause she added his mantell and kind of attireWe reade likewise of Elyas 2. Reg. 1. 2. that he had a heary or rough mantell agreing to the description in the Prophet Zacharie and a leather girdell wherby he was knowne of Ahazia And this is by you confessed Elizeus succéedeth Elias both in office and vesture And Iohn Baptist did not only represent Elias his spirit but also his kind of garmente for his rough garment of camels heare and leather girdle are described by Saint Mathew cap. 3. I suppose now that the manifest scripture the opinion of learned interpreters and the practise of so many notable Prophets do sufficiently iustify my assertion and are able to improue your probable coniectures as you tearme them Touching Peter what kinde of apparell soeuer he did weare the matter is not great it is the fond reason of theirs that I reproue which is tootoo childish as I haue shewed before and yet may it be supposed that Peter vsed all the meanes he coulde not to be knowen and therefore whether he cast off his vppermost garment or changed it it may be a question
Churche be so great and the people so many that he cannot be heard of them then there ought to be some regarde thereof S. Luke telleth what S. Peter dyd in the congregation he dothe not prescribe any general rule Euery circumstance that is tolde in the scriptures is not streightway to be made an inuiolable rule of all men to be followed The place is not material so that it be suche as the people may well heare and vnderstande that whiche is read and preached Concerning the lessons whiche are to be read the booke prescribeth no place only it willeth the minister to stande and to turne him so as he may best be heard of all suche as be present And are you offended at that neyther doth y ◠booke appoynt any certein place for the Le anie to be sayde in and therfore you do but dally and trifle The Ordinarie is the méetest man to whose discr tion those things sh uld be le t both for his learning wisdome and also that there may be one vniforme or 〈◊〉 his diocesse if any Ordinarie be carelesse in such matters if you wil complaine of him I am sure you shal be heard But your delight pleasure is to be gyrding at Bishops though the cause be forged Chap. 1. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 3. And the ende of the order in the booke is to be obserued which (*) 〈◊〉 is to kepe the prayers in the accustomed place of the church chappell or chauncell which howe maketh it to edification And thus for the generall faultes committed either in the whole lyturgie or in the most part of it both that I may haue no neede to repeate the same in the particulars and that I be not compelled alwayes to enter a new disputation so oft as M. Doctor saith very 〈◊〉 vnlike a diuine (*) These be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whence so euer this or that come so it be not euill it may be well established in the Church of Christ. Io. Whitgifte What is the ende of the booke in that matter why do you not expresse it But you say it is to keepe the prayers in the accustomed places c. if this be the ende why doth the book admitte alteration do you not sée your solfe manifestly conuinced by the booke I beléeue and I am well assured that the ende is edification whatsoeuer you imagine to the contrarie And vndoubtedly you haue founde out maruellous weightie and wittie reasons agaynst the whole Lyturgie or the moste parte of it And the faults you haue noted be very many and excéeding great But haue you no conscience in calling good euill or are you not afrayde vpon so light quarels to make suche a schisme in the Church and to bring so worthy a booke into so great contempt Well you will one daye be better aduised I doubt not whiche truely I wishe for and hope for howe vncourteously so euer you haue vsed me That which M Doctor sayth so vnskilfully and vnlike a diuine he hath learned of better and more skilfull diuines than eyther of vs bothe be that is of Ambrose and of Caluine for the one sayth Omne verum à quocunque dicitur à spiritu sancto est All truthe of 〈◊〉 in ▪ ▪ Mat. vers 37. whom soeuer it is spoken is of the holy Ghost the other Purus est multarū erū vsus quarū vitiosa est origo The vse of many thinges is pure whose beginning is vicious and vnpure But M. Doctors bare affirmation if he had so vsed it is of as good credite as your bare negation But when he hath learned mē of his opinion and Iudgement for you thus to shift it of is but to bewray your vnablenesse to disproue it either by authoritie or reason You should at the least haue made true repor e of my words which you haue not done but delt therin according to your accustomed manner for my wordes be th se. Fol. 82. It maketh no matter of whome it was inuented in Pag. 82. sect what booke it is conteyned so that it be good and profitable and con onant to Gods worde and you reporte them thus whence soeuer this or that come so it be not euill it may be well established in the churche of Christ. If you haue the truthe why doe you thus goe about to maynteyne it with lyes In so doing you hurt not me but your selfe and your cause ¶ An examination of the particular faultes eyther in matter or forme wherwith the booke of common prayer is charged Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 105. Sect. 3. Nowe I come to the forme of prayer whiche is prescribed wherein the Authors of the Admonition declare that their meaning is not to disallowe of prescript seruice of prayer but of thys fo rme that we haue (*) A prop excus for they expounde them selues in the additions vnto the fyrst parte of the Admonition Io. Whitgifte In déede they haue retracted it in some poynt which argueth they writte their booke at the first with small aduise and lesse discretion It is no exposition but a retractation or recantation for the places of Scripture which they quoted and their very wordes declare that they ment the contrary and so doth their practise in secrete conuenticles But now you come to my Answere wherein you take what you list and leaue what you list as you haue hitherto done Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Admonition The fouretenth Then ministers were not so tied to any forme of prayers inuented by mā but as the spirit (g) Rom. 8. 26 1. Tim. 1. 2 moued them so they powred forth hartie supplications to the Lord. Now they are bound of necessitie to a (h) Damasus the first inuentor of this stuffe vvell furthered by Gregory the seuenth prescripte order of seruice and boke of common prayer Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 77. Sect. 3. To proue that ministers were not so tied to any forme of prayer inuented by man but that as the spirite moued them c. you quote Rom. 8. the 1. Timo. 1. In the eight to the Romaines the wordes be these Likevvise also the spirite helpeth our infirmities for vve knovve not vvhat to pray as vve ought but the spirite it self maketh request for vs vvith fighes which cannot be expressed This place speaketh nothing against any prescript forme of prayer for then it should disallow the Lordes prayer but it teacheth vs that it is the spirite of God that sturreth vs vp to pray and maketh vs earnestly poure out our supplications vnto God And thus the spirit worketh as well by prescript prayers as by prayers sodenly inuented The wordes to Timothie Epist. 1. ca. 1. vers 2. are far fetched nothing to the purpose the wordes be these Vnto Timothie my natural sonne in the fayth grace mercie and peace from God our father and from Christ Iesu our Lorde what maketh these wordes against any prescript forme of
to celebrate the Lordes Supper And if it did the dignitie of the Sacramentes do not depende vpon the man be he minister or not minister be he good or euill Lette euery one take heede that they doe not vsurpe that authoritie wherevnto they be not called T. C. P ag 113. Sect. 1. 2. 3. He hath certayne other (*) Vntruth for I vse no reasons to that end to proue that women may baptize whereof the first is in the. 93. page and that is that Sephora Moses wife circumcised hir child wherevnto I haue answered partly before that particular examples especially contrary to generall rules are not to be followed and will further answer if I first admonish the Reader wherevpon this baptisme of midwiues and in priuate houses rose that when we know of how rotten a stocke it came the frute it selfe may be more lothsome vnto vs. It first therefore rose vpō a false interpretation of the place of S. Iohn V nlesse a man be borne againe of vvater and of the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdome of heauen 3. Iohn Where certayne do interprete the word water for the materiall and elementall water wherewith men are washed when as our sauioure Christ taketh water there by a translation or borrowed speach for the spirit of God the effect whereof it shadoweth out For euen as in another place by the fire and spirit he meaneth nothing but the spirit of God which purgeth and purifyeth as the 3. Math. fire doth so in this place by the water and the spirit he meaneth nothing else but the spirit of God which clenseth the filth of sinne and cooleth the broyling heate of an vnquiet conscience as water washeth the thing which is foule and quencheth the heate of the fire Secondarily this erroure came by a false and vnnecessary conclusion drawen of that place For although the scripture should say that none can be saued but those which haue the spirit of God and are baptised with materiall and elementall water yet ought it to be vnderstanded of those whiche can conueniently and orderly be brought to baptisme as the Scripture saying that who so doth not beleeue the gospell is Iohn 3. already condemned meaneth this sentence of those which can heare the gospell and haue discretion to vnderstand it when they heare it and cannot here shut vnder this condemnation eyther those that be borne deafe and so remayne or little infants or naturall fooles that haue no witte to conceiue what is preached And herevpon S. Augustine concludeth that all not baptized are condemned which is as absurdly 106. Epist. ad Bonifac. in lib. de meritis remissi pec cat 1. ca. 4 concluded of him as that of our sauioure Christes words excepte one eate the flesh of the sonne of man he hath not life he concludeth that whatsoeuer he be whiche receyueth not the Sacrament of the Supper is damned Upon this false conclusion of S. Augustine hath risen this prophanation of the sacramente of baptisme in being ministred in priuate houses and by women or lay men as also vpon his other absurd conclusion sprong a horrible abuse of the Lords supper whilest they did thrust the bread and wine into yong infantes mouthes for that menne were perswaded that otherwise if their children should die before they were baptised or had receyued the supper that they were damned for euer And what better token can there be that this was the cause of this blind baptisme than that the Papistes from whome this baptisme by women is translated were of the same iudgement and for that cause brought in their baptisme by women Herevnto may be added another cause which is that as when the Churche began not only to decline but to fall away from the sinceritie of religion it borrowed a number of other prophanations of the heathen so also it borrowed this For as the heathen had women priests so it would haue also hir women priests and Li. 3. ca. 9. that this was another occasion of bringing in the baptisme by women it appeareth by your Clement if he can speake any truth Io. Whitgifte It is vntrue that I vse any reasons at all to proue that women may baptise onely I bring this and such like examples to improue this generall assertion of the Admonition that then sacraments were ministrred by ministers only and not by midwiues or deacons For Deacōs then did baptise and Moses wife long before that time did circumcise I know that particular examples make no general rules but you are not ignorant that Particular examples may sometimes be followed particular examples may in the like cases and circumstances be followed when ther is no rule to the contrary The place in the. 3. of Iohn by you alleadged hath diuers interpretations and the most part of the auncient writers do take water in that place for materiall and elementall water as Augustine Chrisostome Ambrose Cyrill and sundry others euen as Chr. in 3. Io. 3. lib. de spirit sanct lib. 2. de Abrabam patriar Cyri. in 3. Io. many of the auncient fathers as I haue red vpon that text But bycause I do mislike as much as you the opinion of those that thinke infants to be condemned which are not baptized therefore I will not contend with you eyther in the interpretation of that place or in anye other thing that you haue spoken touching this erroure onely this I saye that you must take héede least in auoiding an errour you fall into an heresie and giue place to Anabaptistes in not baptising infants And I knowe not what you can saye agaynste priuate baptisme in that case of necessitie whyche they doe not in lyke manner alleadge agaynste the baptising of yong Infantes Master Caluine in his Introduction Aduersus Anabap. though he allowe not this errour which condemneth chyldren not baptized yet doth he approue and allowe the necessitie of baptizing infantes His woordes be these But some man will say that the grace of God towardes vs is not diminished Caluine uers 〈◊〉 if infantes be not admitted to Baptisme so that it be not denied that God is as mercifull vnto them as vnto the children of the Iewes but I will shewe that it is much diminished for we muste esteeme the grace of God especially by the declaration thereof which he maketh both by his worde and Sacramentes Seyng therefore Baptisme is nowe ordeyned that the promise of saluation may be sealed in our bodies as it was in tymes past in the people of the Iewes Christians should be depriued of a singular consolation if theyr children shoulde be secluded from this confirmation which all the faythfull haue at all tymes enioyed that they should haue the visible signe whereby the Lorde doth shewe and witnesse that he receyueth their children into the Communion and fellowship of the Churche If the Authours of the Admonition say truly that Victor who liued Anno. 198. did firste appoynt that women might Baptise
Sunday whiche you haue denied to be his opinion in the former two places I haue tolde you what he meaneth by discipline and order or pollicie whereby he giueth to vnderstande nothing lesse than that whiche you woulde conclude beyng but your owne deuise to serue for a poore shifte at a néede And although the matter is not greate whether they labour or no yet the lawe of the Prince and the order of the Churche is to be obserued And so it appeareth that there is no reasonable cause as yet proued why you ought not to subscribe to the seruice Booke Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 82. Sect. 1. 2. In the ende you adde patched if not altogither yet the greatest peece out of the Popes Portuis To this I answere briefely it maketh no matter of whome it was inuented in what Booke it is conteyned so that it be good and profitable and consonant to Gods worde Well sayeth Ambrose Omne verum à quocunque dicitur à spiritu Sancto est All truth of vvhome soeuer it is spoken is of the holy ghost T. C. Pag. 123. Lin. 6. Nowe whereas M. Doctor sayeth it maketh no matter wither these thinges be taken out of the Portuis so they be good c. I haue proued first they are not good then if they were yet beyng not necessarie and abused horribly by the Papists other beyng as good and better than they ought not to remayne in the churche Io. Whitgifte Your reasons be not sufficient to proue them not to be good the abuse hath not bene suche but that it beyng remoued the thing may still remayne as profitable and The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 iudgement conuenient the iudgement of the Churche in determining what is best and moste fittest in matters of order pollicie and gouernment not beyng agaynst the worde of God is to be preferred before any priuate mans opinion and imagination Chap. 2. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 123. Lin. 10. And as for Ambrose saying all truth of whome soeuer it be sayde is of the holy ghoste if I were disposed to moue questions I coulde demaunde of him which careth not of whome he haue Mark 1. the truth so he haue it what our Sauiour Christe ment to refuse the testimonie of Deuils when they gaue a cleare testimonie ▪ that he was the Sonne of God and the holy one And what S. Paule ment to be angrie and to take it so grieuously that the Pithonisse sayde he and his companion Act. 16. were the seruantes of the highe God which preached vnto them the way of saluation Here ▪ was truth and yet reiected and I would knowe whether M. Doctor would saye that these spake by the spirite of God Thus whilest without all iudgement he snatcheth here a sentence and there another out of the Doctoures and that of the worste as if a man should of purpose choose out the brosse and leaue the siluer within a while he will make no great difference not onely betwene the Prophetes and Apostles and prophane wryters as Aristotle and Plato but not betwene them and those which speake not by the conduyte and leading of the holy ghoste but by the violent thrusting of the wicked spirite Io. Whitgifte Christe liked not the truth beyng vttered of the Diuell bycause he spake it of an euill meaning but he liked very well the same testimonie of truth afterwardes vttered by Peter sincerely Math. 16. Mar. 8. Neyther did he mislike the woordes bycause they were abused by the Diuell before But I will leaue Diuels and speake of men of whome I thinke Ambrose mente although the truth is truthe of whome soeuer it is vttered but to Answere for Ambrose he hath sayde nothing in that sentence which may not be iustified M. Caluine vpon these woordes 1. Corinth 12. And no man can saye that Iesus is the Caluine Lorde but by the holy Ghost sayeth thus It may be demaunded whether the wicked haue the Spirite of God seyng they sometime testifie playnely and well of Christe I answere that there is no doubte but that they haue so much as concerneth that effect but it is an other thing to haue the gifte of regeneration than to haue the gifte of bare vnderstanding wherewith Iudas was indued when he preached the Gospell M. Martyr also vpon the same woordes after he hath recited the opinions of other P. Martyr maketh this resolution But when I weygh this matter with my selfe I perceyue that the Apostle here dothe speake not of the Spirite whiche doth regenerate or of that grace which iustifieth but of the giftes which are freely giuen whiche may happen as well to the good as to the euill Therefore I thinke that Paule spake simply that he might declare that by what meanes soeuer we speake well of Christe it is of the holy Ghost of whome Omne verum à spiritu sancto est commeth all truthe as all vntruth proceedeth of the Deuill who is the father of lyes You sée therefore that Ambrose is not of this iudgement alone and that his saying is verie true The Doctoures that I haue vsed in this cause be Ierome and Augustine whiche be not the worst but comparable with the best I haue rehearsed out of them whole sentences and perfite the which you are not able to answere the rest of your opprobrious woordes wherewith you conclude this question of holy dayes I leaue for other to consider of as notes of your spirite And to the intent that the Reader may vnderstande that it was not for naught that you set not downe my Booke togither with your Replie I will here set downe such portions of my booke touching this matter as you haue not answered vnto but closely passed ouer not thinking that any man should haue espied your lacke of abilitie to answere them Chap. 2. the. 10. Diuision Admonition They should first proue that holy dayes ascribed to Sayncts prescript seruices for them c. are agreeable to the written worde of the Almightie Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 153. Sect. 4. Pag. 154. Sect. 1. Holy dayes ascribed to Sainctes wherein not the Sainctes but God is honoured and the people edified by reading and hearing suche stories and places of Scripture as perteyne to the martyrdome calling ▪ and function of such Sainctes or any other thing mentioned of them in Scripture must needes be according to Gods worde For to honor God to worship him to be edified by the stories and examples of Sainctes out of the Scripture cannot be but consonant to the Scripture The prescript secuice for them is all taken out of Gods worde and not one peece thereof but it is moste consonant vnto the same If ther be any that is repugnant set it down that we may vnderstande it I tolde you before that touching the dayes and times and other Ceremonies the churche hath authoritie to determine what is most cōuenient
encreased But these thyngs are not de substantia Sacramenti and therfore not sufficient to proue that the Supper is not sincerely ministred M. Bucer likewyse in his censure vpon the booke of Cōmon prayers is of the same iudgement his wordes be these The thirde chapter M. Bucers opinion is of the substance forme and breaking of bread vvhiche all doe vvell inough agree vvith the institution of Christe vvhome it is manifest to haue vsed vnleuened breade and easy to be broken for hee brake it and gaue to his disciples peeces of the breade broken Touching the forme and figure vvhether it were rounde or square there is nothyng declared of the Euangelistes And bicause this breade is vsed onely for a signe and not for corporall nourishemente I see not vvhat can be reprehended in this description of the breade vvhiche is in this booke excepte some vvoulde peraduenture haue it thicker that it maye the more fully represente the forme of true breade T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. vlt. I haue spoken of this bread before in generall and if M. Doctor did not disagree with himselfe we are here well agreed For first he fay the it skilleth not what bread we haue 〈◊〉 by and by he sayth that he wisheth it were common bread and assigneth a great cause which the booke of seruice likewise assigneth which is to auoyd superstition and it is certaynly knowen by experience that in diuers places the ignorant people that haue bin misseled in poperie haue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 kneeled vnto it and held vp their hands whilest the minister hathe giuen it not those only whiche haue receiued it but those whiche haue bin in the Churche and looked on I speake of that whiche I know and haue seene with my eyes Another reason is alleadged by M. Bucer whiche is that there being some thicker substance of bread and such as should moue and stirre vp the tast better the consideration of the mind which is conneyed by the senses might be also the more effectuall and so the frute of receyuing greater By the way note that eyther (*) Or else you speake of a matter you know not Bucers censures vppon the booke of seruice be falsely ascribed vnto him or be corrupted or else were not euen in his owne time here thought good substantiall and sufficient when there is some cause by act of Parliament afterward found I meane in the second booke of King Edward to mislike water cakes and to change them into common bread Howsoeuer it be that circumstance would be well marked that it was one thing to talke of a water cake in the vse of y e supper in King Edwards dais before they were iustly abolished and another thing now being reuoked after they were renioued Io. Whitgifte I am constant and agrée with my selfe in the truth I thanke God for it I knowe the kind of bread to be indifferents my priuate iudgemēt I haue in my Answer vttered But in such matters I submit my selfe to the determination of the Church to whome God doth giue his spirit most aboundantly so long as it followeth and embraceth the truth The daunger that you speake of is in the forme and figure of the bread not in the other qualities nor in the substance and therfore not perteyning to any thing that I haue spoken For the question is of leauened or vnleauened breade not of roundnesse or squarenesse c. Although the forme and figure also is indifferente and in the power of the Churche to appoynt wherfore there may no schisme or diuision in the Churche be made for it M. Bucers censures were vpon the firste booke in King Edwards time not vppon Bucers censure vpon the first booke 〈◊〉 King Edwards days the second therefore you are deceiued The Church hath authoritie in things indifferent to abolish or reuoke as occasion serueth and therefore that circumstance is not worthe the noting Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. 1. Besides that we be called by the example of our sa ionce Christ to vse the supper vsual and common bread for what time our Sauioure Christ celebrated his supper there was no other bread to be gotten but vnleauened bread there being astraight charge giuen by the law that there should be then no leauened bread and it is not to be doubted but that if there had in then when he celebrated his supper as at other times nothing but leauened bread he would not haue caused vnleauened bread to haue bin made for that purpose of celebrating his supper Io. Whitgifte It was not vsuall bread but properly appoynted for the celebrating of the passouer Christ vsed vnleuened bread and then to be vsed and not otherwise vsually and commonly for their vsuall and common bread was leauened wherefore this maketh against you and if you will haue the commaundements that appertethe to the eating of the passouer perpetuall Pa. 130. Sect. 2 and to be referred to the celebrating of the Lords supper as by that precept 2. Chro. 35. before alleadged it seemeth you would then must we make it a matter of necessitie to haue vnleauened bread but as that is 〈◊〉 so is this also for the kind of bread is indifferent although as M. Bucer sayth it commeth nearer to the institution The kind of bread of itself indifferent of Christe to vse vnle uened bread b cause he did celebrate his supper with it if there wer not other circumstances and reasons to moue the Church sometimes to vse the contrary Chap. 1. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. But this is a grosse ouersight of M. Doctor both 〈◊〉 this section and that whiche goeth 〈◊〉 fore that he hath not learned to make a difference betwene that which is not ncerely done that which is not at al done For in the former 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vpon the Admonition bicause they conclude that for as much as there is no examination therefore it is not 〈◊〉 and sincerely ministred For saythe he the examination of the communicantes is not of the Iubstaunce of the sacrament and in this section he saith that for as much as it is not of the substance of the sacramēt whether there be leauened or vnleauened bread therefore it is not sufficiently proued that the sacrament is not sincerely ministred but he ought to haue vnderstanded that if eyther the matter of the sacrament as bread and wine or the forme of it which is the institution which things are only substantiall parts were wanting that then there should haue bin no sacrament ministred at all but they being reteyned and yet other things vsed which are not conuenient the sacrament is ministred but not sincerely For example in the popish baptisme there was the substance of baptisme but there being vsed spittle and creame and candels and such beggerly trumperie it was not sincerely ministred therefore it is one thing to minister sincerely and another thing to minister so that that which is of
Lorde These therefore be they whome we call excommunicated and who for two respectes are not members of the Churche one according to men bycause they are excluded from the holy felowship of the faythfull the other according to God bycause that saying of Christe is sure that that is bounde in heauen whiche is ryghtlye bounde of the Churche in the earth But it is an other thyng truelye to bee bounde in heauen than to bee cast out of that true kyngdome of heauen whiche neuer happeneth to anye of the electe For that saying of Christe standeth that those shall neuer bee caste out whome the Father hath giuen the Sonne and that of Lohn if they had bene of vs they woulde haue taried with vs and that of the Apostle the foundation of God standeth sure hauing this seale the Lorde knoweth who be is Therefore as touching Christe these are sayd not to be his nor members of the Churche not as the firste whiche are reprobate and damned but bycause for a tyme as concernyng the force and efficacie of the spirite they are without hym as beyng so engraffed in hym that they receyue not that lyuelye nouryshement of the spirite of Christe for a tyme that is tyll grace of repentaunce be gyuen them To conclude the difference betwixt these and the firste is such as is betweene a legge of woode ioyned cunninglye to a true bodye whiche notwithstanding is not a legge in deede neyther is truely called a parte of that man and betwyxt a true legge that yet for a tyme receyueth not nouryshement in suche sorte that vnles it be refreshed by the strengthe of some sharpe medicine it wyll necessaryly putrific and cleane peryshe VVherefore seeing these thinges be thus and charitie byddeth vs to hope well of all yea and also to take care for them whiche are helde as captiues in the snare of the Deuyll God forbydde that the Parentes beyng excommunicated wee should conclude that theyr posteritie belongeth not to the kyngdome of God Furthermore there is great difference betweene those whiche although they bee notorious offendours neuerthelesse departe not from the Churche and betweene those that are manifeste rennegates ioyning them selues with the enimies to oppresse the truthe of the Gospell Further it were vnreasonable to esteeme of Papistes muche lesse Christians excommunicated no otherwise than of Turkes for although it bee vnpossible to serue the Pope and Christ togyther yet it is certayne that Poperie is an erring of the Christian Churche VVherefore the Lorde hath in the middest of that goulfe of Papistrie preserued Baptisme that is the first entering into the Churche whereby it appeareth as also the thing it selfe proueth in vs that although Papisme be not the Churche yet the Churche hathe bene and is as it were drowned or couered in it whiche can not by anie meanes bee sayde of the Turkes whiche neuer gaue theyr names to Chryst. Lastly for so muche as the goodnesse of God is extended to a thousande generations that is as it were without ende it were harde if wee shoulde iudge of the children whether they belong to the couenant of God or no by the profession of their last Parentes Therefore of all these argumentes ioyned togither we conclude that the children of persons excommunicate abyding yet in the Churche of God can by no right bee debarred from Baptisme if in case a meete suretie bee had whiche will make promyse to the Church that they shall be vertuously brought vp which I thinke ought to be done of the Ministers them selues and other Godly men rather than theyr Baptisme shoulde anie longer be deferred Yet it shall not be amisse if the Minister before he baptise the infant taking hereof occasion earnestly exhort the father that is excommunicated being present to epentance before the assemblie whiche is oftentymes practised in oure Churches Hitherto Beza Chap. 4. the 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 137. Sect. 2. And in the. 193. page he asketh what if the Parentes of the childe be vnknowen if it be yet if godly men will present it to baptisme with promyse of seing it brought vp in the feare of the Lorde for so much as it is founde in a place where the churche is and therefore by likelyhoode to apperteyne to some that was of the churche I thynke it may be baptised if the churche thynke it good in this last case Io. Whitgifte And why should you but thinke so what reason is there why it should not be baptised But yet this answere of yours dothe nothing iustifie the Aomonition Whiche would The parentes to presente their chyldren if conuentently makyng an open confession of that faythe wherein he would haue his chylde baptised For this can not be done where the Parentes be vnknowen neither is in such case any other man able to testifie of what faythe or behauiour the parentes were Chap. 4. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 137. Sect. vlt. Then he goeth forth in the. III. Page to proue that the children of those which he hath reckened may be baptised and demaundeth whither a wicked father may haue a good childe a Papist or Heretike father a beleeuing chylde yes verily may they So may haue and hath the Turke and the Iewe and yet their children are not to be receyued vnlesse their fayth doth fitste appeare by confession But you say the Papiste an Heretike be Baptised and so are not the Iewes and Turkes Their baptisme beyng cut of from the Churche maketh them as much straungers vnto it as was Ismaell and Esau whiche albeit they were circumcised yet beyng caste out of the Churche they were no more to be accompted to be of the body of Gods people then those whiche neuer were in the Churche Now you see (*) It is poyson in deede and the same whi he I suspected the poyson as you terme it which lieth hidde vnder these wordes and if it be as you say poyson let vs haue some of your triacle In all the reste of that section there is nothing but that which he spake of before onely the Eldership is amed which commeth to be intreated of in the next section Io. Whitgifte If their baptisme be so cut of that it also taketh away the priuiledge from their children howe can they be admitted agayne into the Churche without rebaptisation S. Augustine in the place before recited sayeth that Heretikes though they be cut of from the Churche yet they do retayne their Baptisme whiche beyng true there is no reason to seclude their children frō it I cannot learne but that the Sonnes of Ismaell were circumcised for it is written of the Egyptians as P. Martyr doth note P. Martyr in 4. Rom. that they circumcided at 14. yeares of age bycause Ismael was then circumcised Which tyme of circumcision the Arabians obserued in lyke manner And therefore it is not vnlike but that the Posteritie of Ismael was circumcised And as for the Sonnes of Esau it is not like that they were debarred from circumcision
is collected into some one narow and certaine place To be shorte it can not be gouerned when it is ful of hypocrites Papists Atheis s and other wicked persons as when it hath verie fewe or none such as cōmonly it hath not in tyme of persecution when the gold is as it were by fyre tried from the drosse He that according to this diuersitie of the forme state time of the church doth not allow a diuersitie of gouernment doth confound and not edifie I praye you what Seniors could you haue in most parishes in England fit for that office But wise not wilful men haue to consider this God hath giuē the chief gouernment of his church to the christian magistrate who hath to consider what is most conuenient and we must therwith be content so that nothing be done against faithe and the commaundement of God TC Pag. 142. Sect. 1. Nowe I will come to M. Doctors reasons which he hath in the hundreth fourteene and a hundred and fiftene pages where he graunteth that there were elders in euery Churche in times past but saith that it ought not now so to be For saith he the times alter the gouernment and it cannot be gouerned in the time of prosperitie as in the time of persecution vnder a christian prince as vnder a tyrant Thus he sayth but sheweth no reason bringeth no proofe declareth not how nor why prosperitie will not beare the elders as well as persecution neyther why they may not be vnder a godlie prince as well as vnder a tyrant v lesse this be a reason that bycause the godlye prince doth nourish the church as a ciuile Magistrate therfore the Auncients may not nourishe it as ecclesiasticall ouerseers Io. Whitgifte My reason why it may not be gouerned vnder a Christian Prince as it maye The Church may no be gouerned vnder 〈◊〉 stian Prince as 〈◊〉 a tyrant vnder a tyrant is this God hath giuen the chiefe authoritie in the gouernmente of his church to the Christian magistrate which could not so be if your Seignorie might as wel retein their authoritie vnder a Christian Prince and in the time of peace as vnder a tyrant and in the tyme of persecution For tell me I pray you what authoritie ecclesiasticall remayneth to the ciuill Magistrate where this Seignorie is established But that the Reader may vnderstande this not to be my iudgement alone but the iudgement also of famous learned men the practise of w ll reformed churches I thought good in this place before I proceed any further to report the opinions of Musculus and Gualter touchyng this matter Musculus in his common places titulo de Magistratibus affirmeth that notwithstanding in the 〈◊〉 tyme the Musculus churches were ruled by Seniors yet they may not so be vnder christian rulers and Magistrates who haue authoritie not in ciuill matters only but in ecclesiastical also His wordes I haue recited before M. Gualter in his cōmentaries vpon 1. Cor. 5. Supra in the 4. diuision doth at large entreat of this matter whose wordes bicause they haue pith in them and proceede from him which is both learned and godlie and of great experience I will reher e them as I finde them There are also others which although they haue true christian princes and want no lawes wherby licentious maners are corrected yet they say they nede an ecclesiastical senate Gualter in 1. Cor. 5. which might punish euery man and haue authoritie also ouer Princes that it might seclude them fr the Lords supper if they haue giuē any publike offence not to admitte them againe vnto the felowship of the Church but vpon their allowāce after publike satisfactiō And if any man do contrary them in their opinion by and by they crie out vpon him as the enemie of all discipline as one vnwoorthy to haue any place in the Church as though there could no other forme of discipline be appointed but that whiche they haue inuented But they must pardone vs and let them not condemne vs rashly which do dissent from them not without good reason You sée therefore how your Seigniorie and kinde of gouernmente is liked euen of zelous and godly ministers of reformed churches Neyther do I remember that I euer read any authoure that dothe of necessitie require it scripture I know you haue none for it Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 142 Sect. 2. Nowe seing M. Doctor can shew vs no cause why they may not as well be now as in the time of the Apostles as well vnder a Christian prince s vnder a Tyrant I will shewe him that although they be always necessary yet there is better cause why they should rather be now than in the Apostles times greater necessitie vnder a Christian prince than vnder a tyrant First of all in the Apostles times it is knowne that the gifts of the spirit of wisedome discretion knowledge enduring of trauayle were poured foorth more plentifully then euer they were eyther before or shall be after By reason whereof the Pastors and ministers of the churches that were then were I speake generally and of the estate of the whole Church better furnished with the gifts needefull for their ministerie than are the ministers of these days Whervpon I conclude that if the ayd and assistance of the Pastor by the Elders was thoughte necessary by the Apostles in those times when the ministers were so wel and so richly replenished with such gifts much more is that ayde and assistance meete for the ministers of these days wherein their gifts of discretion knowledge and diligence are not so plentifull For if they whose eye sight was so cleare to perceiue whose hands so nimble to execute had neede for their ayde of other eyes and other handes then the ministers now whose eyes are dimmer and hands heauier than theirs were haue much more neede of this ayde than they had Io. Whitgifte This reason is answered two ways and that briefly The first is bycause there is not at this time in euery congregation so méete men for that office of Seniors as there was then for God hath not now so plentifully poured the giftes of the spirit of wisedome discretion knowledge c. vpon so many in euery congregation according to your owne confession as he did then and therefore nothing so easie to fiad in euery congregation meete men to gouerne ▪ a it was then Secondly the ciuill and Christian The ciuill ma gistrate a better help to the minister than the Seniors Magistrate hath that whole authoritts now that Seniors had thē and much more for he may punish with corporall punishment and so could not they he may compell and coustrayne and so could not they so that the Pastor may be much better ayded and assisted in doing his dutie and in suppressing vice by the authoritie of the Christian Magistrate than he eyther was then or could be now by the
Emperour in ciuill businesse Theodosius the Emperour made a lawe wherein it was decréed that all ciuil stryfes and controuersies shoulde be referred to the iudgemente of the churche if either Dorotheus Duaren lib. 1. of the parties did desire it And the same lawe did Carolus Magnus afterwards renew and confirme and yet doe you saye that the practise of the churche dothe confirme that Bishops may not meddle with ciuill offices If you flée to reason is it not good reason that a Bishop shoulde haue that office Some ciuill iurisdiction giuen to Bishops is agreable to reason and that authoritie that maye helpe hym in dooing his duelie in correctyng vice in procuryng peace in maynteyning good order in cuttyng off sectes schismes and suche lyke in accomplyshing all whiche be that séeth not howe muche he is helped by suche ciuill authoritie as the Prince committeth vnto hym is eyther voyde of reason or wilfully blynded Wherfore I may moste iustly conclude that for so muche as the holye Scriptures The conclusion of this matter doe teache that Ecclesiasticall persons maye meddle with ciuill effices the practyso of the Churche confirmeth the same and reason telleth that it is conuenient and seeing that suche as practise them both in the maner and forme before declared breake not foorth into any other mannes callyng busy not themselues in things whiche belong not vnto them but walke in their callyng occupie themselues in matters incidents vnto it and do good seruice both to God their Prince and their countrey these offices may very aptely concurre and meete together in one person and be profitably linked and ioyned together in one man This did Augustine confesse and acknowledgeth that the Apostle hath bounde them to these troubles not by his owne iudgement but by Bishops bounde by the holie ghost to ciuill troubles iudgement of him that did speake in him as I haue before declared This haue the godlie Bishops Cranmer Ridley Hooper c. consented vnto this doo the graue wise and learned Bishops in our tyme in this Churche by experience knowe Admonition The eightenth And birds of the same fether are couetous patrones of benefices persons vicars readers parish priests stipēdaries riding chaplains y t vnder the authoritie of their masters spoile their flocks of y e food of their soules (a) Phi. 21. 2. such seeke not the Lord Iesus but their own bellies (b) Iud. 12. cloudes that are without rayne trees without fruite (c) Mat. 23. 27. painted sepulchers full of dead bones fatted in all aboundance of iniquitie and leane locustes in all feeling knowledge and synceritie Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 226. Sect. vlt. 227. Sect. 1. It is true that couetous Patrones of benefices be a great plague Couetous patrones to this Church and one of the principal causes of rude and ignorant ministers God graunt some speedie reformation in that poynt Neyther can I excuse all persons vicars c. but all this is spoken without the booke and therefore not fitlye of you alleadged agaynst the booke T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 4. Unto the two sections I haue spoken in that which hath bene sayde touching excommunication canons and Prebendaries c. And vnto that whyche is conteyned in the. 226. and. 227. I answere that I can not excuse couetous patrones of benefices but couetous parsones and vicars be a greate pi gue vnto this Churche and one of the principall causes of rude and ignorant people Io. Whitgifte I confesse that the couetousnesse of some of them one waye and the contentiousnesse of some of you an other way hath done muche harme in the Church brought no small hinderance to the Gospell I pray God open the heartes of all that euery man may espye his owne deformitie and be therof ashamed T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. vlt. Lykewise vnto the two next sections I haue answered before in speaking against the spirituall courtes which are now vsed vnto the next after that in speakyng of the ordeyning of ministers Io. Whitgifte You haue not answered to this conteined page 233. I vvill neitheriustifie that vvhich is amisse nor condemne that vvhich I knovve not Only this I say that this taunting spirit of yours seketh rather defamation than reformation vttereth spitefulnesse of stomacke rather than godlie zeale for what a deriding of authoritie disdayn towards the same is this three of them would be enough to sting a man to death for why they are high commissioners VVhat example haue you of any godly man that vsed thus to deride and floute magistrates you say all this springeth out of that Pontificall whiche you must allow by subscription c. But it had bin well if you had tolde vs out of what part of that Pontificall they spring and how they be thereof gathered This you passe ouer in silence Admonition And thus much be spoken as touching this booke against which to stand is a wonder to two 2. Tim. 2. 7. 2. Cor. 4. 4. forts of men the one ignorant the other obstinate The Lord giue those that be his vnderstanding in all things that they may haue iudgement as for the other whome the God of this world hathe blinded least they (f) Math. 13. 15. should see and confesse the truth and so be saued and that do in the full growth of wickednesse maliciously resist the truth God confound them that his peace may be vpon Israell and his sauing health vpon this nation Ansvver to the Admonition Page 234. Sect. vlt. Nay surely it is a wonder to wise learned and godly men to see this booke so painefully penned with such aduise perused and by so long practise allowed now to be defaced as it were with friuolous Foure sortes of aduersaries to the Church vnlearned and vnapt reasons and that by fower sorts of men Atheists Papists and Anabaptists and as you woulde be counted Puritanes God of his infinite mercie giue you charitable quiet thankfull minds and eyther conuert your harts or roote al such disturbers out of this Church that we may with one hart and mind serue our Lord God T. C. Pag. 171. Lin. vlt. And vnto that which is conteyned in the latter end of the. 234. and the beginning of the. 235. I say that the Church shall iudge of the aptnesse or vnaptnesse of our reasons albeit we do fynde fault with diuers things in the booke yet we neither oppugne as enemies nor are by the grace of God eyther Papists Anabaptists Atheists or Puritanes as it pleaseth M. Doctor to call vs. And to the prayer against disturbers of the Church I say with all my heart Amen Io. Whitgifte I would to God you did not oppugne it as enimies c. Surely then would not your fiercenesse nor your bitternes of speach haue bin such as it is But God forgiue you and to the prayer I say agayne Amen Amen Admonition If this be not playne inough by that which is already set
with the fault of the print or by carping at the translation when the wordes being changed the sense remayneth or by alleadging that such a one or such another was of this or that iudgement as you for the most part hauing nothing but his bare name haue done All whiche thinges you haue committed in this booke ▪ but that you confute it by the authoritie of the worde of God by good and sound reasons wholy and not by peecemeale And if you bring the practise of the churches we desire that it may be out of authorities which are extant which are not counterfeyte and which were in the best and purest times And if you thinke that the credite of your Doctor ship or Deanry will beare out that which you cannot answer your selfe besides that * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is neuer shut ▪ remember M. Doctor that lighte is come into tht worlde and The reuenging eye men will not be deluded with nothing nor abused with visards neyther let it embolden you which peraduenture hathe made poli presume the more in ▪ this booke to write any thing vppon hope that no man dare answer it For neyther the Queenes Maiestie nor hir honorable counsell as we are perswaded will deale so sharply with those whome they know to be faithfull and lawfull subiects which pray that all the treasures of Gods wisedome may be poured vpon them neither haue we cause to thinke but that as the euill opinion which is in part conceiued of vs hath growen vppon false and vntrue informations whiche you and such other haue giuen in crying in their eares that we be Anabaptists conspired with Papists Puritanes Donatists bringers in of confusion and anarchy enimies to ciuill gouernment and I know not what euen so when hir Maiestie and their honours shall vnderstand how farre we are from those wicked opinions they will leaue that opinion of vs ▪ and rather esteeme of vs by that we haue preached taught and now write than that whiche other men report of vs being thinges which we neuer taught ▪ spake or so much as dreamed of Io. Whitgifte It is so farre from satisfying me in any point that it greatly confirmeth me in some thing where vnto before I did but incline Such is the weakenesse of your grounds Your request made vnto me is against all reason for how can you require that of The Replye requireth that of others which he him selfe woulde not performe me towarde you which you haue in no respect perfourmed towards me for firste you haue not set downe my booke that the Reader mighte perceiue how vprightly you deale with me secondly you haue passed ouer many thinges and left them vnanswered Thirdly you haue vnreasonably wrested my words and in most places you do nothing but wrangle you haue mangled my booke and so skipt from place to place that the Reader shall hardly perceine what you take or what you leaue to be short you haue vsed few scriptures and those vntollerably wrested How then can you require the contrary of me But I haue satisfied your request to the full I trust saue only I do not intend to learne of you how to answer what authoritie to vse but if the authorities and reasons that I bring shall be sound to be light they shall the more easily by you be remoued I depend not vppon the credit of my Doctorship or Deanry neither would I wish you too much to trust to the opinion of your owne learning and witte I say with Sainte Augustine Let scripture be compared with scripture reason with reason authoritie with authoritie cause with cause and let vs both according to the same be iudged I doubte not of the answering of my booke neyther do I feare it you knowe that Conference by writing hath bin often offered to the Replier I haue offered you diuerse tymes this kind of conference though not in thys publike manner I haue spoken nothing agaynste you before hir maiestie whyche your bookes and doings haue not proued to be true Hir Maiestie and their honours know what they haue to do the Lord blisse them with his holy spirit and in all their doings guide them Of the additions detractions and alterations made by the admonitors in both the partes of the Admonition T. C. Pag. 173. Sect. 1. Beside that often thne M. Doctor doth account the expositions and explanations corrections he ueth vs somewhat the lesse hope that he will correct his errours for that he purfueth the authours of the Admonition so harde correcting their very small and few slips whiche they haue made calling this singular destie and commendable hum tie amongst other reproches dalying and inconstancie when it is our profession euery day to learne better things For vnto what end should we liue if time if experiēce if reading iusing if conference should teach vs nothing And therefore when thinges are printed againe it is good and prayse worthy to polishe those thynges which are some what rud to mitigate these things which are too sharpe to make playne to giue light to those things which seeme darker and to correct that which is amisse I thinke M. Doctor should not be ignorante that wise men haue their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 there second councells and those also wiser and better than their first as that sentence doth declare I will therefore say no more hereof but admonish M. Doctor that he receiue more louingly those whiche correcte themselues seing that the best defense to his booke must be not a correction here and there but a cleane blotting or striking out not an amending but a new making almost of his whole booke Other matter in his censures he hath almost none at all woorth the answering sauing that he hathe a place or two which toucheth the matters before entreated of Io. Whitgifte It behoueth such as will take vpon them to plucke downe that which is wel builded They whiche wil pul down the olde and place a newe platforme oughte to be v rie circumspecte and to make a new platforme to be well aduised what they do and assured of their cunning if this ought to be in humane matters and in externall affaires of the life of man how much more ought it to be in diuine matters and things perteyning to the kingdome of heauē I do not mislike that modestie and humilitie that is contente to be corrected and to acknowledge that whiche is ami e. But I can by no meanes allowe that pryde and arrogancie that presuming to condemne the whole state of a Churche and to prescribe vnto the same a newe platforme is by and by after through vnskilfulnesse and lack of discretion at the first constreyned to misselyke that newe platforme also and to p ce it and patch it like a beggers cloke with putting too and taking fro with altering and chaunging sometyme this and sometyme that like vnto foolishe and vnskilful buylders It behoueth suche as will take vpon them
what ciuil iurisdiction is in this realme which helpeth not vnto the good gouernment of this church and estate For if they medle with al that there is none which they haue not to do with Io. Whitgifte The thing it selfe declareth and the practise of this church is euident in what sorte Differēce betwixt the ciuil iurisdiction of the Pope of our Bishops and condition such ciuill offices are cōmitted to ecclesiasticall persons and that they do not rule as kinges but as subiectes to kinges nor that they challe ge not this of any other authoritie but from the Prince and that they vse it to no other end than the good and godly gouernment of the churche whereas the Pope ruleth as Emperoure and kyng not as subiecte challengeth his authoritie of dutie and by the word of God not by the graunte of Princes and vseth it moste Tyrannically euen to the placing and displacing of kinges and Empereurs at his pleasure And this is that vsurped iurisdiction which all good men crye out of and mislike and not the other which is ordinary vsuall and lawefull When I saye that Bishoppes haue that ciuill iurisdiction which helpeth to discipline and the good gouernment of the churche and state all men may vnderstande that I meane suche ciuill iurisdiction as is méete for them to execute and agreable to their vocation and calling Ansvvere to the Additions c. Fol. 7. Whereas before it was thus in the margent and. 19. reason To proue that the regiment of the Churche should bee spirituall reade Ephes. 1. 23. 1. Thes. 5. 13. 1. Tim. 5. 2. Heb. 10. 30. nowe it is thus altered to proue that the regiment of the churche should be spirituall reade Caluine in his Commentaries vpon these places Ephe. 1. 23. 1. Thes. 5. 13. 1. Ti. 5. 2. Heb. 10. 30. Belike bicause the scriptures them selues doe not sufficiently proue your assertion therfore you would haue vs to leaue them and to rest vpon Caluines interpretation which is nothing else but to preferre mans iudgemēt before the word of God or to giue M. Caluine authoritie to conclude that whiche is not determined by the scripture If this be not your meaning why flie you frō those places them selues to M. Caluines interpretation vpon them But what if you now abuse M. Caluines Commentaries vpon these places as you did before the places them selues In his commentaries vpon Ephe. 1. vers 23. This is al that he sayth touching this matter Nam vtcunque Christus omnia perficiat nutu virtureque sua tamen specialiter loquitur hic Paulus de spirituali ecclesiae gubernatione Quanquā nihil intereà impedit quominùs de vniuersali mundi gubernatione accipias For hovvesoeuer Christe maketh perfecte all things vvith his beck and by his povver yet Paule speaketh here especially of the spirituall gouernment of the church Although that in the meane time it is no hinderance vvhy thou maist not also vnderstande it of the vniuersall gouernment of the vvorld These wordes serue little for your purpose There is no man that doubteth but that Christe doth spiritually gouerne his church and reigne in the hearts of the faithfull by his spirit But your meaning is that the gouernment of the churche is only spirituall which you can no more gather of these words of Caluine than you may that of the gouernment the whole worlde ought only to be spirituall The same Caluine writing vpon 1. Thes. 5. vers 12. for the which you haue noted the. 13. sayth on this sorte Hoc additum videtur ad notandum spirituale regimen tameesi enim reges quoque magistratus Dei ordinatione praesunt quia tamen ecclesiae gubernationem dominus peculiariter vult suam agnosci ideò nominatim praeesse in Domino dicuntur qui Christi nomine mandato ecclesiā gubernant This seemes to be added to note the spirituall regiment For although kings also and magistrates do gouerne by the ordinance of God yet bicause the Lorde vvould haue the gouernment of the churche knovven peculiarly to be his therefore namely they are sayde to rule in the Lorde vvhich gouernethe the church in the name of Christe and by his commaundement Hetherto Caluine also affirmeth that whiche no man denieth that God doth by the ministerie of his worde spiritually gouerne his churche But this taketh not awaye the eiuill magistrate neither yet ciuill lawes made by the Magistrate externally also to gouerne the churche In his Commentaries 1 Ti. 5 vers 2. he speaketh not one worde of this matter for any thing that I can perceiue Upon the place to the Hebrewes he onely sheweth that God doth gouerne his church the which I thinke no man is so wicked as to denye You must more plainly set it downe what your meaning in this matter is before you can be fully answered For to proue that God doth spiritually gouerne his churche is nedelesse being denied Anabaptisme after a sort fended of none either Papiste or Protestante but therevpon to cōclude that the ciuill Magistrate is secluded from the gouernment of the church or that there nedeth no externall regiment is daungerous and sauoreth Anabaptisme T. C. Page 174. Sect. vlt. Upon the seuenth leafe he sayth that he knoweth not the meaning of the Admonition when it proueth that the gouernment of the church is spirituall their meaning is playne enough and I haue declared it more at large to be not only that our sauiour Christe ruleth by his spirite in the hearts of his elect besides which gouernment M. Doctor seemeth to knowe none but that there is also spirituall gouernment which is in the whole church visible and to be seene exercised by those whome God hath appointed in his steade called spirituall bicause wheras the ciuill gouernment vseth the sworde this vseth the worde and where the ciuil gouernour addresseth him selfe vnto the body and hath that for speciall matter to worke on the spirituall gouernours be occupied in reforming the mynde and subduing that with those punishementes corrections which God hath appointed for that purpose Which signification of spirituall gouernment M. Caluine doth speake of in both the places alleadged by M. Doctor and especially in the latter vnto whome the Admonition sent the Reader not thereby to giue more weighte vnto the truthe but that he might haue there a playner and fuller vnderstanding of that which is ment and could not for that breuitie and shortnesse which it followeth throughout vtter at large Whereby it is manifest that the Admonition is so farre frō shutting out either ciuill gouernment or externall gouernment in the churche that it teacheth of an externall gouernment which M. doctor seemeth not to haue heard of albert there be nothing either more common in the scriptures or ecclesiasticall writers Io. Whitgifte You replye not to my answere neither doe you tell vs why you haue lefte out the places of Scripture before quoted and in place thereof put M Caluine Neither haue you
zeale is euen that that Zuinglius doth charge the Anabaptists with when he sayth Ira est non spiritus quo se venditant The ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets c. In this portion entituled An exhortation to the Bishops to deale brotherly with their brethren ther is no great matter conteined worthie of answering only the author doth excuse himselfe for taking vpon him that exhortation moueth the Bishops to deale brotherly with the authors of the Admonition First bicause they be their rethren secondly bicause they ought first to haue discouered vnto the world by the word of God howe truely or falsely they haue written Thyrdely bycause they do but disclose the disorders of our Churche of England and humbly desyre a reformation of the same according to the rule of Gods worde c. Fourthly that Papists lye abroade in their dioces vntouched c. Fiftly that many lewde light bookes and balades flye abroade printed not onely withoute reprehension but Cum priuilegio Likewise in y e same booke the author seemeth to iustifie the Admonitiō to condemne the lordship and authoritie of Bishops ascribing thervnto the stay hinderance of their pretenced reformation charging them after a sorte with mangling the Scriptures of God and with snaring the godly with such lawes as were purposely made for the wicked These be the principall contentes of that booke The first reason that is That they be their brethren might as wel be alleaged Bretheren may be punished for the impunitie of Anabaptists Arrians and such like who pretend the sinceritie of gods word and would be counted brethren yea it might as well be alleaged for many other malefactours who be also brethren and yet must not therfore escape vnpunished for their offences Shall not the Prince and the magistrate execute lawes vpon suche as breake them bicause they be their brethren in Chryst Beware of such doctrine and let not affection in priuate mens causes carie you headlong into publike errors But I thinke you are in this pointe deceiued for howsoeuer we accompte them our brethren yet they accompt not vs their brethren neyther will they acknowledge vs so to be as some of them both in open speache and manifest signes haue declared And therfore when the Bishops deale with them they deale with suche as disdayn to be called their brethren T. C. Page 177. Sect. 3. After M. Doctor confuteth his owne shadow for the exhortatiō doth not require that the name of a brother should deliuer the authors of the Admonition from punishment if they deserued it but desi eth that it might worke some moderation of the rigoure of it and compassion to minister to their necessities in prison He sayeth that the authors of the Admonition take not them for theyr brethren yes verily although vnbrotherly handled and for fathers too and so both loue them and reuerence them vntill which we hope will not be they shall manyfestly for the vpholdi g of their owne kingdome and profite refuse to haue Christe to reigne ouer vs in whome this fatherhoode and brotherhoode doth consist Io. Whitgifte Let the readers iudge whether it be one of their reasons or no let them also consider that which I haue before alledged out of the second Admonition pag. 35. then tell me whether they take vs for brethren or no. Can you so well please your selues in your own platforme y t except we admit it we refuse Christ to reigne ouer vs I trust he hath reigned ouer vs hitherto and shall doo to the end though your platforme be sunke to the bottome of the sea An ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets To their second reason I answer that I thinke they haue bin talked with and heard what they haue to say for them selues but their hautie mindes and good opinion conceyued of themselues will not suffer them to see their errours In this reason you alledge nothyng for them but that which may also be alledged for the Papists or any other sect of heretikes But it is an old saying Turpe est doctori c. How hapneth it that they themselues haue first defamed not the Bishops only but also this whole Church of England with publike libells before they haue vsed brotherly and priuate conference This is to espie a moate in an other mannes eye c. How true the thirde reason is may appeare in my answere to their Admonition but how true soeuer it were yet their disordered disclosyng by vnlawful meanes that is by libelling deserueth as much punishment as hitherto they haue had for the truth nedeth no such vngodlie meanes of disclosyng If Papists goe abroade vnpunished when by lawe they maye be touched surely it is a greate faulte and can not bee excused and I praye God it maye bee better looked to But thys is no good and sufficient reason for the impunitie of other Bicause some Papistes be not punished shal therfore no disordered persons be punished Or bicause some in authoritie winke at some Papists shall therfore no lawes be executed towardes any offenders Surely touchyng malice agaynst the forme and state of this oure Churche I see no greate difference betwixt them and the Papists and I think verily they both conspire together The same answere I make to youre first reason shall no booke be suppressed bicause some be not It is a faulte I confesse to suffer lewde Ballades and Bookes touchyng Ballets manners But it were a greater faulte to suffer bookes and Libells disturbing the peace of the Churche and defacing true religion Concerning the titles and offices of Bishops I haue spoken sufficiently before In manglyng and wrestyng of the Scriptures none offende so muche as doe the authors of the Admonition who in that point are comparable to the Papistes as may be seene by the learned and diligent Reader If they whom they terme godly do willingly offende against such lawes as were made for the wicked they are to be punished according to the lawes neyther are they to be spared bicause they pretende Godlinesse bre keth no lawe godlynesse for there is no godlinesse in breaking of lawes The thirde scroule called An Exhortation to the Bishoppes and to theyr Cleargie to answere a little booke c. is satisfyed I trus e for I haue as it is there required answered the short and peeuishe Pamphlet as they tearme it I haue disclosed their double and corrupt dealing theyr wringing of the Scriptures to serue their turne and haue declared the true sense meaning of thē I haue not bumbast d it with rethorike but in plain simple maner vttered my iudgement according to uncient fathers contemned o ned men the true meaning and sense of the Scriptures notwithstanding I haue in sundrie pointes declared the vse of the Church of Christ in tymes past and do vse the testimonie of auncient Councels and learned fathers whiche these vnlearned men vnlearnedly contemne a thing not heard of in any age or Churche nor allowed of