this very Government hath no Image of Divine Right upon it nor hath it warrant in all things from the Word as your self acknowledge To your second That Doctrine and Discipline go together c. Yea pure Doctrine and pure Discipline go rightly together and if either be impure or unsound there is so much the more danger So as this is an Argument rather against you because where Doctrine opens the conscience and lets in any thing of Discipline but that of the pure Word there is one evil onely mended with another And for your Instance of a Schoolmaster who both teaches and corrects You know we are not to prove but to illustrate by similitudes And that of a Schoolmaster is a fitter illustration for the Pedagogy of the Law and that Discipline then the Gospels You know the Apostle uses it onely to that The Law was our Schoolmaste c. Gal. 3. To that of your description of the Government that it is a curb a goad c. I answer There is nothing you say of Government in these words but may be said of any civil Government nay of Prelacy when it was in its primitive form But that onely which you ought to say and which onely differences it from all devised forms of men as your Covenant binds you and ought to be your onely reason for erecting and setting it up is this Is it the Scriptures form or model Is the people so in the exercise and capacity of it as in the Gospel times If so then you prove something And further All this you say is true in a kinde too of Christs government but yet in some sort communicable with devised governments The only distinguishing and essential marks are not to be a curb and goad but the Scriptures onely mark and image and some spiritual operations c. which no other devised form of man hath To your other of the blessings and blessed fruits in Scotland that there is no Heresie nor Schism there Let Master Coleman our learned and pious Brother speak for us both from his experiences And for that Kingdom time will shew whether it will prove to be a blessing or no to want that which you call Heresie and Schism Surely to be free from Heresie and Schism in a Scripture sense it is such a blessing as the whole Gospel cannot patern What No Heresie in a whole Kingdom No Schism in a whole Kingdom Never such a pure Church heard on Corinth Ephesus Colosse Jerusalem Antioch all not comparable The worst I wish our Brethren there is that all were so pure as we hear on Indeed Scotland had the honour to awaken us first in the work of Reformation and Liberty but lest Scotland should be puffed up England shall have the glory I hope to improve that liberty to a fuller light which some would close up too soon in the narrownesse of a Presbytery Methinks there is something of this nature considerable in the Lutherans who though they follow the first Light in Germany yet the Lord hath suffered them to stick there without a fuller Reformation that the first may be last and the last first For if a State be covenanted so close to the Word they had need be favourable and free to all that are accordingly covenanted for each mans conscience is the Interpreter in himself of what makes for or against the Covenant he takes and by this very Covenant you are all to be tender to consciences because the Spirit of God not power of men can interpret the Will of God but in their civil and prudential things onely they may intrepret themselves To that of Job That with the ancient is wisdom and with the gray-headed which you apply in way of reproach to the younger whom you call as it were green-heads I answer That the elder I esteem as fathers and the younger we know are such in whom the Lord speaks more gloriously as he himself saith Your young men shall see visions and upon your sons and daughters I will powre out my Spirit your old men shall dream dreams Now whether is it more excellent to dream dreams or to see visions The Lord delivered Israel by the young men of the Provinces Surely we may more safely hearken to the younger that see visions of Reformation then to the elder that dream dreams of it onely Master Ley's Resolution pag. 15 16. There is great disproportion of times Men were then converted from Paganism and while they were so they were uncapable Our Congregations in England are professed Christians and though there be many not so wrought on by the Word c. That is rather a reason for the establishment of it Ezek. 22.26 1 Cor. 4.21 Prov. 23.13 14. Nor can Sabbath nor Sacraments be administred without iâ— Reply To that of the disproportion you speak on of times and conversion c. I answer The Apostle's and primitive times are the times we are to look at for a patern and model T is true there is great disproportion for they were Apostles who gave the government then yet are but private Divines as you say by me if you be compared with them For that of the conversion from Paganism to Christianity There is no such disproportion there neither but that very proportion which our Saviour hath himself foretold and set forth For how doth a Iewish and Antichristian State differ Nay how doth a Heathenish or Paganish State differ from an Antichristian or Parochial State as Parochial or Parish is in that notion Christ hath put them that are out of the Church under that very notion Matth. 19.17 and the spirit in the Revelation makes the Antichristian State to be as unlawful as a Paganish and calls out equally from that as from the other as by comparing 2 Cor. 6.17 Revel. 18.4 together will appear So as speaking of things and notions I cannot but speak in a Scripture way nor am I uncharitable in this neither though I thus speak I look on thousands in this State as godly beleevers It is not the Pastors I write against but the way There may be a Moses in Pharaoh's Court a Ioseph in Potiphar's house a Cornelius or devout man though out of the Church a Luther even in Rome till the Lord enlighten So as government and discipline is a Churches right and priviledge not the worlds and nations priviledges as so and then Where are all your quoted Texts which are applied Surely that of Corinth is the Churches and that of Ezekiel and Proverbs makes not for the discipline of a Church at all Master Ley's Resolution pag. 16 17. He makes a comparison betwixt material and spiritual buildings as stone and timber should not be clapt together in the one so one in the other 1. Similitudes may illustrate but not prove any thing 2. Conformity betwixt material and spiritual things is not to be carried too far 3. In material buildings or the Temple there is not onely squared stones but peeces and
The Smoke in the Temple WHEREIN IS A DESIGNE FOR PEACE and RECONCILIATION of Believers of the several OPINIONS of these Times about ORDINANCES to a Forbearance of each other in Love and Meeknesse and Humility With the opening of each Opinion and upon what SCRIPTURES each is grounded With the several EXCEPTIONS which may be made against each Opinion from the SCRIPTURES With one Argument for Liberty of Conscience from the NATIONAL COVENANT With another Argument to prove the Gospel or New Testament of Jesus Christ the very Word of God Tendred to all the Beleevers to shew them how little we have attained and that there is a more glorious Fulnesse to be revealed With a Discovery of the Antichristian way of Peace c. for Opinions With a full Answer to Master LEY One of the Assembly of Divines against my late NEW-QUERE With some spiritual Principles drawn forth of the Controversie Revel. 15.8 And the Temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from his power and no man was able to enter into the Temple till the seven plagues of the seven Angels were fulfilled By John Saltmarsh Preacher of the Gospel at Brasteed in Kent THE SECOND EDITION CORRECTED London Printed by Ruth Raworth for G. Calvert at the signe of the Black Spread-Eagle at the West-end of Pauls 1646. To the Right Honourable the Lord Vicount SAY and SEALE and Lieutenant General CROMWEL Noble Patriots IF I mistake not you may here single out something of the Lords from what is mine and discern some beams of God amongst many things of man I know the candle of the Lord cannot shine anywhere with more snuff then in me however since the Lord hath lighted it I dare not but let it shine or rather glimmer before men I have writ your Names to my Book that I may be one of your Remembrancers amongst the rest to the advancement of Truth not but that they who know ye know ye to be acted by a Spirit of Truth in your selves The Lord remember ye according to all the good ye have done in your several Ministrations to this people and do that for ye which gives you most and yet takes most from ye even filling ye with himself till he hath emptyed ye of all but his own glory and gathered ye up into the fulnesse and righteousnesse of himself in Christ where we are onely nothing in our selves and every thing in him and surely the most and best and greatest thing he can do for the sons of men is thus to make them nothing in their own account that he that glorieth may glory in the Lord I may seem strange to wish ye thus but I know it is not strange to ye who know the Mystery of the Spirit and of Christ My Lord and Sir Go on still yet still laying your designes in a glory above that of States and Kingdoms and involving all your counsels there where there is most of Heaven and lest of the World So prays Your Servant in the Lord JOHN SALTMARSH To the Beleevers of several Opinions for outward Ordinances or dispensations scandalously called Independents Presbyterians Anabaptists Seekers Brethren I Have fairly set down how far each of you have attained in the Mystery of Truth and surely we are all short of the glory which shall be revealed in the Temple or Church of God and there are such clouds rolling about each opinion that may darken it or something of it So as things are not so clear as they are commonly taken by each of us If any man think he knoweth any thing he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know So as the common ignorance and infirmitie amongst us may be a rise for a common Vnitie amongst us and seeing we all come out of Babylon though in several wayes to the glorious Temple or Tabernacle which God hath sent down to be with men and walk thus diversly thither yet our several and distinct goings are but like so many Travellers to the Citie of London some travel from the North some from the South and from the West some from the East yet all thither though too there may be some mistaking of the way in each because of the little light that is abroad The gathering of the Saints into the Heaven or Kingdom below in this day of Revelation is like the gathering at the last day which shall be all into one glorious Body though the gathering shall be from the four winds or ends of the Earth by the several Trumpets or Angels One thing I have more Let us seek for the Spirit of wisdom and revelation to open to us the Mystery of the Scriptures called The Revelation for in that Book is the Prophecie of the Churches laid up and the seasons and times for Truth revealed Let us search and seek out by the Spirit of Jesus even that Jesus which was in the Vision and gave it out to John for there is none found worthy to open the Book with Seals but the Lamb Surely in the Mystery of Angels Vials Sea of glasse with fire Temple with Smoke the Angel with the everlasting Gospel the Angel enlightening the Earth the Whore in skarlet and pretious pearls the Cup of abomination the Beast like a Lamb the Image of the Beast the Horns and Kings of the Earth the mark in the forehead and in the right hand the buying and selling the Tabernacle of God with men the first and second Resurrection the Throne of God the pure crystal River of water the Holy Jerusalem descending from God c. In these is much of the glory wrapped up and from these shall the Truth we contend for appear to our further enlightening Yet one thing more We that are thus contenders for Ordinances for the Temple and the Vessels in it let us take heed we forget not him who is greater then the Temple for one greater then the Temple is here It would be spiritually considered that while we strive for the Vessels and Cups we spill not the Wine And it ought to be so carried by all of us that because we are so much in opinion we may not be thought to place Religion there as I fear too many do making a Christ of the very Ordinance of Christ and pressing some outward Ordinances of the Gospel so legally as some hearing such a power of salvation put into them and finding an outward dispensation more easily got then the spiritual make haste thither onely and then sit down as saved under a meer outward Ordinance The Lord grant that we may neither undervalue an Ordinance nor the least Institution of Jesus Christ nor raise it up into a Jesus Christ and set up the Law above or beside the Law-giver We must now learn to know Jesus Christ lesse after the flesh and not to embody salvation in a meer outward dispensation and so incarnate Jesus Christ over again from the glory and spirituality he is in Brethren farewell For my part
a common man charging us in the Name of the Parliament and cannot visibly make out a visible excellency and supremacy of power by Ordinance or Commission 12. That these Churches who enjoy Christs minde as they think most fully in the practice of Ordinances yet have no greater gifts in their b Churches then there are in those called Independent or Separatist Prayer Teaching Prophesying being as fully and powerfully performed in the one as the other And being so Whether must not the Churches of Christ be distinguished by some more visible glorious power and gifts as at first c by which they may be discerned to excel all otheâ—Societies 13. That the fulnesse of time is not yet come for Ordinances For as there were several d seasons for the givings out of Truth before so now SEEKING or SEEKERS So called What their Way is and what they hold THat there is no Church nor Ordinances yet That if they did not end with the Primitive or Apostles times yet they are to begin as in the Primitive times with a gifts and miracles and that there is as much reason for the like gifts to make out the Truth of any of the Gospel now to an Antichristian estate as formerly to a Jewish or Heathenish That such a Beleever as can dispense Ordinances must be qualified as the Beleevers in Mark 16. and as the former b Disciples were That there is a time and c fulnesse for the Spirit and for the latter pure spiritual dispensations as there was formerly for the first dispensations And whether this shall be while the Angels are but powring out their Vials or not or when Babylon is fallen And whether there is not as much need for d new Tongues to reveal the pure Original to us it being conveyed with corruptions and additionals in Translations by which Truth may be more purely discovered and the waters of Life that now run muddily may flow more clear and crystal-like from the Throne e of God The Exceptions 1. THat Jesus Christ did promise to be ever with his a Church and therefore cannot be reasonably presumed to leave them without b Church and Ordinances 2. That if c Scriptures were not so pure and clear to us as the Word of Life were not sufficiently there God were lesse d gracious to us now under Grace and Christ come in the flesh then before to the Jews who gave them a Book of the Law which remained with them to the coming of the Messiah 3. That such gifts and miracles were rather for bringing the Word into the world and for glorifying Christs first coming in the flâ—sh then for e after 4. That if we must have miracles to make us beleeve and not beleeve any truth till then we must have for every Truth as well as for one or two a miracle to give it evidence and so there must be a continual and new miracle-working for every new beleeving 5. If there must be miracles for beleeving Truth is not of that excellent nature that it seems for if it be not able to make it self evident and cast a native and spiritual f shine or brightnesse upon that soul it comes into it is but weak dark and insufficient 6. If Truth be not discernable in it self by its own glorious light-some nature by beams from it self it is of a worse condition then many things bâ—low as the sun and stars and candles c. which bring that light in their own nature and dispensation by which they are discerned 7. If every Truth be a beam of g Christ the truth then every beam hath h light in it self because it streams from the fountain of light and so is discernable 8. That it is more glorious to take evidences from the Spirit then from any thing without which can at farthest of it self but convince the outward man 9. That all shall now in the last times be in a secret invisible inward spiritual glory no more in grosse carnal visible evidences and material beams as gifts and miracles And this is to know Christ no more after the flesh 10. No miracles can in their own nature make one beleeve without a spiritual conviction from the Spirit of Christ going along with it so as we see when miracles were wrought some beleeved and some beleeved not So as then there is no such reason for miracles as pretended because that conviction which comes from the Spirit through the work of a miracle may come by any other instrumental or organical way Or it is a more glorious operation by how much more single or by way of immediate revelation it works 11. To beleeve meerly by the i Spirit is far more glorious then by any other outward means though never so outwardly glorious by how much the Spirit is more excellent then any thing else by so much more divine and spiritual are the impressions of it 12. That when miracles are wrought yet a pretender may work a miracle for the contrary like the sorcerers of Egypt against Moses and Antichrist is spoken on rather to come k with signes and wonders of the two then Christ So as here shall be a losse to any that thinks to beleeve meerly by miracle So as the Spirit is that which must make us beleeve beyond all the power of miracle which can give out its power but upon the sense at furthest being meerly outward and visible 13. That there is no such power for Ordinances as is pretended but Beleevers as l Disciples may administer and so did the Apostles and Beleevers formerly as they were Disciples 14. That the Scriptures of the Gospel or New Testament are of such a m divine and even spiritual glory in the letter as no other word There is a power to discover the reason and secrets of the heart which the reason and heart of man witnesses unto There is a power to convince and accuse and terrifie and comfort clearly and undeniably and experimentally known 15. These Scriptures we have as they are do make a Discovery of such a way of Religion as reason never yet in any age attained to The men of purest reason as your old Philosophers never attained further then the knowledge of something infinite which they did not know and a Religion of humane or moral righteousnesse and purity and some sacrifices of atonement c. And there is not any Religion in the world Jewish or Turkish but they are made up of carnal principles and are founded upon reason and nature but this Gospel-Religion hath opened a new way of righteousnesse in one that is both God and Man in a most rational though infinite way of salvation and a way of Worship crosse to all methods and wayes of reason and the world opening new wayes by a new Spirit purifying natural reason into more divine and glorious notions then ever it yet attained bringing in a way of
England Whole Nations Must Christs government be just as broad and long as the worlds You find not the golden Read for the Temple of that length Now Reader judge Which government affects Dominion Which brings in whole Nations under the Scepter of it Poor Scripture-government can be content to sit downe in a Village To the Church in thy house saith the Spirit In a City as Corinth and over but a few there the Saints onely in fellowship to the Church in Corinth In a Country not over a Country To the seven Churches in Asia not to the Church of Asia or the Church Asia a Church taking in halfe part of the world Sure if Christ would have had such a Nationall comprehensive Church he could have converted Kings and Princes first and they should have given up their Scepters and Kingdoms to Jesus Christ in the way of a Presbyterian Nay it ought to have been so Iesus Christ was bound in the way of righteousnesse to have begun the practice and modellâ—o us over whole Kingdoms having not left it in precept in the whole Gospel and we ought either to have had practice or precept to order and command us in what we obey You say If other Truths be set by it is by those that so oppose Government and not by the Presbyterial I see the Presbytery must be in no fault Happy men that have nothing but Truth on their side You wish I had more caution in my minde and paper and a shorter Refutation had served Cautions are not amisse both for you and me and I think you had need of more caution of the two by how much more vast and national the Government is you manage You that put yoaks upon whole Nations in a day had need to have the cautions of a yeers provision laid in beforehand And for your Refutation of my paper doe not beare witnesse of your self let Truth judge betwixt us and let the Reader pray for a spirit of discerning to judge both what is Truth which is Truth that which you or I affirme Nor will I say I have made here a Refutation of yours If I have done well What have I that I have not received And if I have not the Lord enlighten and enable me to refute my selfe Master Ley's Resolvtion Pag. 36.37.38 To that of his that the material Temple was more clearly left and knowne then the Gospel patern c. Answer 1. He would not be thought to side with Sanballat and Tobijah and so endeavours to shew some considerable difference 2. If it be too soone now for the Goverment will he set a time for it when it will be seasonable or will he have it stay till it be a material building or till we have inspired Prophets 3. It cannot be of too quick dispatch if we set it up by the dictates of the holy Ghost in the New Testament nor the determination sudden if after consideration with Scriptures with the best Divines and collation of the exactest paterns after long debates in the Assembly of Divines where the dissenting and liberty to object and lastly recived by Parliament 4. By the builders speciall regard hath beene had to Iesus Christ for Foundation c. And now by Master Saltmarsh his consent the work may go on c. Reply You say I would not seeme to side with Sanballat and Tobijah You say true I would not But every building is not Temple-work And though I would not with knowledge hinder the Temple of the living God yet if another kinde of frame were in building I would do my best to hinder and be no Sanballat neither But they are Sanballats not whom man but whom the Lord counts so But surely they hinder more that set up another kinde of Temple then Christs then he that advises to look well that all be right and Temple-worke that is set up To the difference I made of the material and Gospel-paterns you say nothing and that is the onely considerable It may be as you said you said by me you are best able to deale with the other You say I should set a time then for the setting it up Yea I shall set you a time yet not in mine owne authority but Cerist's When your Patern is all Gospel and your people all qualified that in Gospel-patern then is my time for setting up and then is Christ's time too Nor would I stay you for a material building as you say You know I call you on to the Gospel I am very far from turning you back to the Law I call you on to Christ I would not turne you back to Solomon And for the inspired Prophets you tell me I stay for and would have you stay too Is not that a very Gospel-way to stay for the Spirit 's comming into the servants of the Lord Take heed of denying inspired Disciples You know it is part of the fulfilling of the great Prophecie Acts 2. Indeed some of the Prelates many of them being uninspired themselves having little of the Spirit or none would needs say therfore All inspirations and Spiritual enligthnings c. were ended in the Church because ended in them and because they were so carnall themselves they thought none was Spiritual And you remember how they made Laws even against the Spirit in Prayer I speake thus onely to remember you who spoke most against inspiration and the Spirit lest you may let fall some words which may be taken up by some of that Way to countenance them in their Invectives Not but that I esteeme of you as one inspired your selfe in a measure and having the Spirit of God in you and herefore I know the Spirit will be very tender in opposing the Stpirit You say you ought to dispatch the Government because you have followed the dictates of the holy Ghost of the Assembly and Parliament Then let me put one Question Why is it not called Christs Government Why hath it not a Jus divinum a Divine Right put upon it if all be of the holy Ghost in it But I would not mistake you you say onely that all is by the dictate of the holy Ghost of the Assembly and Parliament So it is but part then by your owne confession of the holy Ghost the rest is of the Assembly and Parliament You say The builders have had special regard to Jesus Christ the Foundation I will not suspect the Counsels and Debates of any of the builders I know the Disciples of Christ were true Disciples though they had not all of the Spirit at one time which they had at another I hope and I pray that the Lord will make up to the builders what of the Spirit he hath not given them that they may both see to build right and see where they have builded wrong and so pull downe againe as well as set up And whereas you say The building may go on by Master Saltmarsh his owne consent I say Your building will goe on
it seemes whether Master Saltmarsh consent or no Master Ley in his capacity is better able to put it on at this time then Master Saltmarsh is to put it off to another time unlesse the Lord who is above all and hath the mighty even the Princes of the earth to command work for his own glory above all that we can or think Master Ley's Resolution pag. 38 39.40 To the second Objection and Answer of Heresies and Schisms and so they might have done from Iohn's first Sermon he saith 1. Why doth he begin at Iohns first Sermon Were not the Esseans c. Hereticks and Schismaticks See Epiphanius c. 2. He makes Paul's Epistles the terminus ad quem which from Iohn's first Sermon to the last make up Twenty nine yeers After the Epistles he brings in the sending the Spirit c. which was but five yeeres after the first Sermon of Iohn Baptist 3. Before the end of the Epistles that Government was not which we finde in Scripture and if so the Church-government was not long suspended 4. Nor would it prejudice our expedition People of that Age could not be so easily gathered as with us they may be 5. What was long in establishing in Primitive times cannot be said to be hastily done now after so many discussions and delibrate resolutions Reply You say first Why begin I for Hereticks and Schismaticks from Iohn's first Sermon I begin there because there began the mystery of the Gospel And yet I shew you that no Government began with that Gospel manifestition by which I made appeare that if Government had been of such moral necessity why was it not given out with the Gospels first giving out Now you prove in a chronologicall discourse the space of time from Iohns Sermon to Pauls Epistle to make the time appeare for government And after you have summed up all the time and periods and finde it no two or three yeers work you conclude People of that age could not be so easily gathered as now Nor the long establishing then to be an hasty establishing now And now after all this discourse and ravellings out of time from Iohns Sermon c. What have you gained Not that the government was soone setled Then you have proved much to my advantage and in a clearer and fuller computation then I did the contrary So as you have onely beene taking some learned paines if you well observe and the Reader well observe you to prove that the Government at first was not suddenly cast into modell nor brought forth in practice which is the very thing I aimed at and truely your paines in it have beene more exact then mine and I thank you for it But you say It ought not to be so now nor can it be said to be hastily done now that was done so long ago You say true in that But you know the same Spirit must reveale it that formed it and it formed it at first by degrees and the way of Revelation hath beene more yeeres then the first forming reckon but your Antichristian yeeres as exactly as you have done your first Christian and Primitive yeeres and you may be more satisfied So as all both the first Revelation of it from Prophesies and the latter from Antichristianism makes all for the not hastening which I aimed at Indeed if you can as infallibl assurey us this forme and model is the very forme then given out it were very true that you say That it cannot be said to be hastily done now what was done so long ago viz. If it be that very one which was done so long ago For your exception against me concerning my placing the giving of the Spirit so late if you interpret sense by the strict order of words you will lose many a Scripture truth in the words as you well know Master Ley's Resolution Pag. 40. 41. To that of Heresies c. he saith What if they do not stir up their Patrons against the State c. but they busily poyson the souls of the people and shall they if as Paul Best be suffered to blaspheme and reproach and perturb the publike Peace An Indulgence much like old Elies c. If Truth be not more precious then Peace Why doth our Saviour say He came not to send Peace and why do the Fathers contend so against the Arrians about a letter And why we so with the Romish Religion rather then be at Peace with them For that of morall transgressions he would have the Magistrates set on Set on By whom We have not such mean thoughts of the Magistrate as to make mention of him in such terms of disparagement And for all his Disciplines regulating men for religious walking there will be worke enough for the Magistrate to bring them under civill tryall for contumacy c. Reply You say What If heresies stir not up they poyson souls If they poyson let the Gospel antidote be applyed then and no other way which the Gospel will not bear nor allow there is the sword of the Spirit and weapons not carnall but mighty and spirituall For that of old Elies indulgences which you speak on you are still looking upon Moses though you tell us of Christ Make the Kingdome of Israel and of England the same a Iewish and Christian State the same and then we shall allow you both Elies sin and his sons maintenance by tythes and offerings You say Truth is more precious then Peace yet there is a Peace precious as well as Truth even the Peace of Christ as well as the Truth of Christ But to the businesse You would prove Truth to be precious to the disadvantage of Peace and therefore you bring in the Fathers against the Arrians and us against the Papists and Christ against peace But what would you prove Would you prove that truth ought to be established against Peace and Peace to be no way to Truth Surely Truth and Peace do meet together nay they are so much one as there is even a Truth in Peace He that was Truth it self could say My Peace I leave with you But What of the contentions spoken on of the Fathers and us c. If there be any quarrelling for Truth either by the Fathers or us but in a Gospel-way we are not excusable neither doth Christ speak of Truths drawing swords but of swords drawn against Truth which is no Argument for you When Peter would draw a sword in the defence of Truth Christ bid him put it up So far is he against your way of defending Truth You say By whom should Magistrates be set on and that you cannot speak in such disparaging words By whom be set on By the legislative power by the Parliament The Parliament can set on their respective Committees Justices c. and is this any disparagement I speak of subordinate Magestrates not of the supream You say There will be work for the Magistrate enough to punish the contumacious c. That
is in English the Presbytery will keep the Magistracy doing and now who disparages the Magistrate Who set them on work Who makes them their Deputy-punishers Nay Who is the Sathan to whom the excommunicate are delivered It is an expression not much besides your principles and who disparages the Magistrate in that Master Ley's Resolution Page 41 42. To that of Truth being otherwise armed from Heaven I Answer We think it not meet to divide the subservient means from the supream power nor the exercise of Discipline from his assistance who can make it effectuall the sword of God and Gidion To that of the imputation of jealousie c. There is a godly jealouâ—â—e which would set up as many securities as may be against Heresie and impiety The faulty jealousie is theirs that would stifle the Government but there is a fear which we professe of Gods anger for connivence and communion with hereticall men c. There is in some an aversenesse to Heresie in a true zeal and love of God There be many other causes of jealousie but I will take but that one of the Lords and Commons p. 43. If Master Saltmarsh had well considered who were engaged c. he would not have under-valued their piety and prudence to compare them with Papists and Prelates I will conclude with a peece of his own politick advice c. Vpon such principles is Church-Government ordained for his Text out of the Revelation Revel. 18.1 As he began so he ends with mis-application of Scripture Reply You say you cannot divide Discipline from his assistance who can make it effectuall That is from the Magistrates This is a signe without further Argument that you do not hold your government for Christs because it cannot be effectuall of it selfe without help from below and the world and to another power then its own nor is the sword of God and Gideon any fair and just proof for joyning Presbytery and Magistracy it joyns onely God and the Magistates You say Your godly jealousie will set up as many securities as may be But then they are warrantable and Gospel-ways of security That is no godly Jealousie which sets up other wayes as Herod killing all the children to secure his Kingdome David dissembling to escape Jacob to get a blessing there is Jealousie but no godly Jealousie nor warrantable security So to secure any way though of truth by a power not allowed on in the Gospel as no such compulsive power is in your way is not to be jealous with a godly Jealousie though I deny not but some of those may be godly who are so jealous but not in that You say that some fear Gods anger for their Communion with Hereticks c. You know all such fear is onely warrantable in the Church not in the world It is not so with the Nations now as with the Iews Now if we have not communion with them in the Nation we must go out of the world But What communion is this you mean that will bring Gods anger You have your liberty to withdraw to separate as they from you If it be nationall or civill communion then you pluck up the tares before the time of harvest But whom you esteem Hereticks they it may be think they have as good Scriptures to esteem you so and this is Heretick for Heretick interpretation against interpretation And since there is onely a sufficiency but no infallibility now as before since there is no Apostles for interpretation as at first for Revelation why do we thus cry out Hereticks Hereticks the Sword the Sword Let me put one Question here Suppose those you call Hereticks were of equal number to you and both of you equally numbered with Magistrates and both of you equally principled for Persecution and both equally calling out for the Magistrates Sword what clashing of swords would there be What edge against edge what authority against authority what power against power What bloody doings what sad workings what confusion would there be This is an Image of your Incorporation of your two powers that you so plead for in this kinde If we were equally principled and armed for Persecution as you are and acted by your spirit Ah what a Kingdome would here be You say Some have aversnesse to Heresy in a true zeale to God These are but generall notions of Heresy Every thing is not Heresie that is called so And for true zeal to God in that aversenesse all this is granted if that be Heresie indeed But how if it be such a zeale as Paul saith the Iewes had a zeale but not according to knowledge how if it be such a zeale to God as crucified the Sonne of God and such a zeal there hath been we know The Iewes did much in zeale to Truth even against Truth But you close up with that of the Lords and Commons in an Ordinance c. I am afraide these are such proofes as you intend most in your Presbytery to make your supplement to Scripture from Authority and so to make us beleeve what you cannot perswade us to beleeve and to make it out by an Ordinance what you want by Scripture But I hope that honourable Senate will rather let you argue from the Scripture against us then from their Authority But I have not to do here with answering Ordinances of Parliament I contend not but submit to them in every Ordinance for the Lords sake nor doth my Argument lie against any thing of theirs but yours I dare not undervalue them to count them as Parties but Iudges in our difference I appeal to the Parliament as to Caesar nor in it a fair proof of Truth to draw the Magistrates Sword out of the Scabbard You say You wonder considering who was engaged I would so undervalue them to compare them with Papists and Prelates I did consider who was engaged a Parliament c. and had I not highly valuâ—d them I had not ventured so far in my Quaere I considered the sad and fatal troubles which attended the Magistrates engagements with the Ministers the blood which hath been poured out by National compulsion of tender Consciences and like a Spiritual Watchman I could not but blow my Trumpet and give warning And for my comparison of Papists and Prelates I appeal to the world if there be any reproach whether it be not in the Interpreter rather then in the Author But I know no such thing by my Paper And if it be lawfull to draw in consequent conclusions and then father them I could prove you to speake Treason Blasphemy Idolatry Atheisme Heresie nay Independency which some of your Way think worse Anabaptisme Separation which would seeme to be as hatefull to you But I judge you not in any such sort nor had I spoken so far now but in a just Vindication You say You will conclude with my Politicks and upon such Principles as mine Church-govenment is ordained I have told you my Politicks were