benefit by Tythes as now I have And if Tythes were taken away I am confident I should be no loser by another allowance though it may be I may fall under a misrepresentation as if I argued for them as Demetrius for the honour of Diana when I mind â—â—â—â—ing more then the gaine of Tythes as he did the gaine of her silver Shrines and I may the rather suspect it from some of your side though not from you because I find the like charge laid upon Mr. Edw. by i Whisp in the eare of Mr. Tho. Edw. p. 1.2.15 Mr. W.W. in his Whisper in his care whâ— as he is like Luther in the vigour and freedome of his spirit so is he as Luther said of himselfe of all sinnes the freest from covetousnesse and on my knowledge whereas he hath had the offer of many good Benefices he resused them and hath no Tythes at all for his maintenance but a voluntary pension which is not competent for his charge or paines either in an answerable preportion or a seasonable payment and yet is he contented with it minding much more the doing of the worke he undertooke then the receiving of the wages SECT IX Of Mr. Colemans observation of the Church of Scotland Smoke Pag. 28. TO your other of the blessings and blessed fruits in Scotland thâ—â— there is no Heresie nor Schisme lâ—t Mr. Coleman our learned and pious Brother speake for us both from his experiences Light I 〈◊〉 by this passage you have not read the Booke you pretend to answer for Mr. Colemans experience was not of Heresie and Schisme in the Church of Scotland but as he gave instance of the Presbyteries usurpation of the power of banishment and if you meane Mr. Colemans charge for that as I suppose you doe you might have taken notice of an Answer to it in the seventh Section of mine Examination of your New Quere p. 21. which though it were in part but conjecturall is confirmed by a more certain Answer of the Reverend Commissioner Mr. * Mr. Gillespie his Nihil Respondes p. 24. Gillespie in these words What from Scotland I my selfe saith Mr. Coleman did heare the Presbyterie of Edinborough censure a woman to be banished out of the gates of the City was not this an incroachment It had beene an incroachment indeed if it had been so But he will excuse me if I answer him in his owne Language which I use not p. 3. 5. It is at the best a most uncharitable slander and there was either ignorance or mindlesnesse in him that sets it downe There is no banishment in Scotland but by the Civill Magistrate who so farre aydeth and assisteth Church Discipline that prefane and scandalous persons when they are found unruly and incorrigible are punished with banishment or otherwise A stranger coming at a time into one of our Presbyteries and hearing of somewhat which was represented to or reported from the Magistrate ought to have so much circumspection and charitie as not to make such a rash and untrue report He might have at least inquired when he was in Scotland and informed himselfe better whether Presbytery or the Civill Magistrate doe banish If he made no such inquirie he was rash in judging if he did his offence is greater when after information he will not understand And if you put your cause to the arbitration of Mr. Coleman you will find cause by the sentence to conceive him to be no more an Independent then we have to take him to be a Presbyterian and I suppose I may say he is more ours then yours since he hath put himselfe into the Association of a Classicall Assembly in the Province of London howsoever whether he prove a Participle or a Neuter I know you will not be concluded by his either opinion or practise no more shall we SECT X. A Comparison of young men and old for prudence and counsell Of visions and dreames where the second of Ioel vers 28. and Act. 2.17 are vindicated from Mr. Saltm his mistaking and misapplication of them Smoke Pag. 29. To that of Iob which you apply in way of reproach to the younger whom you call as it were greene heads c. Smoke p. 29. Light In stead of acknowledgement of your misapplication of Iob 32. vers 6 7. where with I charge you Sect. 4. pag. 14. of my Booke you lay a charge upon me for reproaching the younger with the name of green-heads That the impartiall Reader may be the better able to judge betwixt us both I will set down first my words to you then yours to me my words are these For his Epiphonema with the words of Elihu forementioned which are taken out of Iob 32. vers 6 7. Why doe not dayes speake and multitude of yeares teach knowledge they make nothing for his purpose for the meaning of them is not that Government or Discipline or any other usefull thing should not be with all convenient speed established but that the ancient with whom is wisdome Iob 12.12 the gray-headed and very aged men Chap. 15.10 who have had the experience of many dayes and yeeres should be heard and heeded in matters of advise and consultation before such green-headed Counsellours as Rehoboam followed to his ruine 1 Kings 12.13 14. Smoke Pag. 29. And your Answer to them is The elder I esteeme as Fathers and the younger we know are such in whom the Lord speakes more gloriously as he himselfe saith Your young men shall see visions and upon your sonnes and daughters will I powre out my spirit your old men shall dreame deames Now whether is it more excellent to dreame dreames or to see visions The Lord delivered Israel by the young men of the Provinces Surely we may more safely hearken to the younger that see visions of reformation then to the elder that dreame dreames of it onely Light I spake no more either in praise of old men or disparagement of young then conduced to cleare the Text in question betwixt us yet thence you have taken occasion to magnifie young men and to vilifie the old alleadging the saying of the Prophet Ioel Your old men shall dreame dreames and your young men shall see visions and thereupon demanding whether is more excellent to dreame dreames or to see visions you resolve the Question your selfe thus Surely we may more safely hearken to the younger that see visions of Reformation then to the elder that dreame dreames of it onely And doe all or onely or most young men see visions of Reformation and all or onely or most old men but dreame dreames of it If there be not such an Antithesis betwixt them your comparative thesis is an errour of youth a slander of age and I shall not doubt if you take up a duell with me in this quarrell with the old mans crutch bring what weapons you will or can to beat you out of the field or at least to give you the foyle But
besides your disparagement of old men I have some what to say to you for mistaking and misapplying the words of the Prophet Ioel 2.28 brought in by the Apestle Act. 2.17 first for the defence of old men you make as if it were safer to hearken to young men then to them as if the young men were wiser counsellours then the old I grant before-hand that sometimes there may be young men as Ioseph Daniel and Samuel who may have a spirit of wisdome and thereby may be fit to give counsell and to governe the wayes of the aged but setting aside singular and extraordinary examples compare age youth in the generall and the resolution of reason and example will be that old men are fitter to direct and guide the young then contrariwise for in old men the passions and perturbations of the minde which give great impediment to prudence for they are to reason as fumes and vapours about a candle which dimme the light thereof are more subdued then in young men Besides experience which is both the parent of wisdome of which it is begotten and the nurse which bringeth it on to a further growth and proficiency falls not within the fathome of a young mans reach but of the old man hence is it that Solomon saith The hoary head is a â—rowne of glory if it be found in the way of righteousnesse Prov. 16.31 and that by the law the younger sort were to rise up before the hoary head and to honour the face of the old man Levit. 19.32 For with the ancient is wisdome and in length of dayes understanding Iob 12.12 And hence it is that the Counsellours and Governours of Common-weales are called Senators and their Assembly * Senatus nomen dedit aetas nam iâ—dem patres sunt Quintil. Instit orat l. 1. c. 6. p. 38. Senatus from age and in the old Testament they are called the Elders of Israel and in the New those whose function requireth of them a wisdome of the best kinde and highest degree for it must be such a wisdome as must goe beyond his subtiltie who deceiveth all the world Rev. 12.6.9 are called Presbyters a word in Greeke of the same signification with Elders in English And for example you cannot be forgetfull of the Story of Râ—hâ—boams old and young Counsellours 1 King 12. nor what prelation is given to the old above the young in that Story and while you remember it you should not sway the preeminence on the young mens side against the old men as you have done Besides the Scriptures there be manifold instances against your fence in the difference of age and youth I will minde you of some as that of a Tuum est undecunque evocare ascribere tibi exemple Mosis senes non juvenes Ber. de Cons lib. 4. cap. 4. col 886. Bernard counselling Eugenius to call to him Counsellours as Moses did that were old men not young men and of the Lacedemonians of whom b Apud Lacedaemonies ii qui amplissimuns magistratum gerunt ut sunt sic etiam appellantur senes Cicer. Catâ— Major seu de Senect Tom. 3 â—pâ—rum Cicer. pag. 408. in fol. Cicero saith that they who are the chiefe Magistrates whose authoritie is of most ample extent as they are so they are called old men And among the Romans aged prudence was so much honoured that c Vt quisque atate antecellit ita sententia principatum abtineâ— Ibid. pag. 415. in the Colledge of Sages Sentences were partly valued by senioritie And there is good ground for this great estimation of old men d Maximas Respub per adolescentes labefastâ—s à senibus susteâ—â—ates restiâ—â—as reperiatis Ibid. p. 408. for great Common-weales as he sheweth which have been ruined by young men have been repaired and restored by old men Such as Agesilaus was whom though among the vulgar Egyptians when he came into their Countrey and they saw no stately traine about him but an old gray beard laid on the grasse by the seaside a little man that looked simply on the matter in a thread bare gowne fell a laughing at him yet the chiefe Captaines and Governours of King Tachis honourably received and were marvellously desirous to see him for the great fame that went abroad of him and he was famous for his wisdome both Military and Civill as c Plutarch in Agesil pag. 629.630 Plutarch reporteth in the Story of his life To him I could adde many examples of later time and neerer home I will name only one and that is my Reverend brother f See his booke de Diphthongis aut Bivocatibus Mr. Tho. Gataker who though he have been an old man a great while hath given of late since his sicknesse and secession from the Assembly such a specimen of a pregnant apprehension and faithfull memory as may assure a judicious Reader that albeit his body be weake his braine is not so though his head have been long gray his wit is yet greene and flourishing Secondly Now for mine other exception against your comparison In it you not onely give preeminence to young men before old but preferre them in this that young men see visions of reformation and old men dreame dreames of it onely wherein you wrap up three particulars which you take for granted but it will be an harder taske then you imagine to prove any one of them First That Revelations by visions are more excellent then those that come by dreames Secondly That visions ascribed to young men are denied to old men Thirdly That young men have visions of reformation old men onely dreame of it whereas First g Duo Revelationum modi per somnium scilicet per visionem imaginariam vigilanti objectam non se superant mutuo ratione excellentioris potentiae vel praestantioris modi cognoscendi cum uterque perficiatur in imaginativa Jacob. Bonfrer in Numb 12.6 pag. 78â— col 1. some learned men have resolved that visions are not more excellent then dreames and the reasons may be First because in Scripture they are brought in as Revelations though different yet without prelation of the one before the other as Numb 12. If there be a Prophet among you I the Lord will make my selfe known unto him in a vision and speake unto him in a dreame Num. 12.6 Secondly as great matters are represented in dreames as in visions as the affliction of the children of Israel in Egypt and their deliverance was revealed to Abraham in a dreame Gen. 15.12 and the intercourse betwixt heaven and earth in the ministery of Angels was represented to Jacob in a dreame Gen. 28.12 It was in a dreame that Solomon had the singular wisdome imparted to him 1 King 3.5 By a dreame was the conception of Iesus Christ by the Holy Ghost revealed to Ioseph Matth. 1.20 and the plot of perdition against him with the way to prevent it Matt. 2.13 Thirdly as for the matter so
rather implied then expressed a challenge of him to prove his insinuated suggestions of Treason Blasphemy c. in my Examination of his New Quere p. 82. Sect. 29. The charge of mis application of Revel 18.1 justisied against Mr. Saltm his deniall The expectation of new lights which some Sectaries teach Papisticall fallacious and dangerous p. 85. The Postscript in answer to Mr. Saltm his Postscript consisting of two testimonies of Claudius Salmasius the one against the forme of Baptisme In the Name of the Father Sonne and Holy Ghost the other for Independencie of Churches p. 91. Errata PAg. 41. lin 4. from the end after the word observed read by many p. 51. l. 8. for experience r. experiments p. 84. l. 8. put out the Comma betwixt Philastrius Brixiensis p. 87. marg l. 19. for Thelmes r. The lives and Text l. 8. from the end for prophecie r. prophecied The Contents of the Novello-mastix Section 1. THe Passager his ridiculous descant upon Mr. Leys Name as if it had some alliance with French or Spanish lees to which is opposed a Greeke Anagram and Epigram on his Name made by a learned Divine about an yeere and halfe since p. 3. Sect. 2. His confused jumbling of heterogeneall and incongruous metaphors against reason and common sence with the number of his Queries p. 5. Sect. 3. An Answer to his first second and third Queries concerning Lieutenant Generall Cromwell and Independency p. 7. Sect. 4. The fourth Quere a senslesse complaint of Jedition and a slanderous imputation of reproach of the Army answered The fifth Query of imputation of calumny and flattery of Lieutenant Generall Cromwell convicted of absurdity slander and selfe-contradiction p. 9. Sect. 5. The sixth Quere of the imputed breach of priviledge of Parliament in saying that some of them favour the way of Independencie and the like charge of the Assembly answered p. 11. Sect. 6. His seventh Querie Whether Mr. Ley ought not to be questioned for medling with this worthy and authenticke Author because the Clerke of the Honourable House of Commons his Deputie signed his Passages for the Presse p. 14. Sect. 7 A cleare and full refutation of a slander of his written Copy which was not printed wherein the Writer absurdly suggesteth that Mr. Leys Booke sticketh upon the Printers hand to his losse the same day when as he saith it was first published p. 18. Sect. 8. Some Anti-queries returned to this querulous Pamphleter by another hand p. 20. To Mr. Iohn Saltmarsh late Pastor of Brasted in Kent Iohn Ley wisheth such soundnesse in judgement and sinceritie in affection that he may truly and cordially salute him as a Brother and a friend And Sheweth in this Epistle his unfitnesse to undertake the discussion of a Controversie or to be taken for an Antagonist in any Question of the Doctrine of Religion or of the Discipline or Government of the Church SIR YOu have taken upon you in the Title page of your last booke to make a full Answer to mine but the fulnesse you speake of is but the tympanie of a promise for your performance is so empty of reall satisfaction to intelligent Readers that some of them who have impartially perused our papers on both sides have seriously advised me not to take such notice of it as to vouchsafe an Answer unto it and the rather because you your selfe make such distinction betwixt a refutation and an answer that though you expresly professe the one a I will not say I have made here a Refutation of yours that is of your Booke Smoke p. 51. you will not say you have made good the other And for mine owne part I will deale clearely with you and let you know my mind not onely for the present but for the future and it is this For the present I doe not take you to be such an adversary as may discourage a man though but of meane parts if not with all of too pusillanimous a spirit to be your Antagonist since you lay your selfe open to so much disadvantage as may rather invite him to begin with you then dishearten him to hold on when you provoke him to proceed But yet besides the disswasions of my judicious friends who thinke I may right my selfe as much by a silent neglect of you as by a loud conquest over you I will give my resolution and my reasons And for hereafter my resolution is not to misimploy precious time whereof my many ingagements in publique service may make me more parsimonious then other men in a reciprocation of a controversie with you and my reasons are these First because I see your genius is rather Rhetoricall or Poëticall then Polemicall and will not keepe close to a question to bring it to an issue and so you scatter your conceptions like drops of quicksilver out of the quill or like beads broke loose from the string so that it is matter of difficulty and sometimes rather of impossibility to gather them into an argument since they have more in them of the complexion and trappings of Phrasiologie then of the constitution of sound Divinity which makes me besides that I had rather contend with an Antichristian Adversary then with a Christian Brother more willing to take the confutation of the most learned part of Bellarmine for my taske then to wait upon your wandring and new sprung notions though now and then you present your Reader with a Primrose of pretty expression to make him to mistake the sent of a weed for a flower of an old error under the name and notion of a new truth Secondly b For your Logicall marshalling c. Smoke p. 16. you professe your selfe to have no good liking of Logick formes of art and methods of reason and c Pag. 60. renounce prudence and consequences as the great engines of will-worship and if you be of that mind you are fitter to write Poems or Essayes or Characters then to maintaine a Dispute in matter of Religion Thirdly I conceive you are the lesse fit for that purpose because you seeme to me by that I have read in your writings to be a kind of Vbiquitary in beliefe or if I may not call it beliefe being so uncertaine as you are I must say you ramble about in your speculation of opinions but as resolved upon none of them settle no where so that your Adversary knowes not where to find you One while me thinkes you are a Presbyterian because you dedicate a Booke to those that for the most part are such as to a most sacred and reverend Assembly another while you d Smoke in the Temple p. 65. 68. reproach the Presbyterie and gloriously set forth the Church way of Independents and e In your Epistle to me pab the beginning bring in your selfe as one of them sometimes I take you for an Anabaptist at least for an Antipaedo baptist for in your exceptions against Presryterie and I must take your Tenet to be
say certainly you intend a terrible Government though you speake to me you doe not meane it of me for you have said * Smoke p. 23. before What if such as your selfe and some other godly meeke of your way propound nothing but wayes of meeknesse to your selves can you undertake c. whereby you seeme to acquit me from the accusation of such rigour as you suspect in others and if that be your meaning you are not mistaken in my spirit for if I know any thing of it it is farre from that height of heat against any opposers whatsoever which was in the Disciples of our Saviour against the Samaritans when they received him not Luk. 9.54 And I confesse in the presence of God who knoweth the hearts of all men that if a spirit of meeknesse and sweetnesse and of all affectionate and faire insinuations would prevaile with the most perverse and blasphemous heretique to winne him to be cordially Christs I could wish the golden Scepter held out to invite him into the communion of the Church rather then the iron rod to bruise or breake or to affright him from the Church And though you meane this of others who shew themselves Zealots for the Presbyteriall Government you are too inconsiderate too uncharitable too confident in your charge for how can you be so certain as you make your selfe when the thing they move for hath no terrour in it It is true that according to the French Proverbe He that would have his neighbours dog hang'd gives out that he is mad so your party that would have the Presbyteriall Government literally suspended and made away as a mad dog as if it would as Paul was before his conversion be mad against the Saints Act. 26.11 and breathe out nothing but threatnings and slaughters against them Act. 9.1 give out that it is an intolerable Tyranny and ten times worse then the Prelaticall Domination When indeed if men will lay aside all prejudice partiality and passion they shall finde the spirit of Independencie more terrible then that of Presbyterie For First that which is so much stuck at as an incroachment upon Christian liberty and a meanes of the Ministers domineering over the people the suspensioÌ„ from the Sacrament of the Lords Supper are not the Independents more rigid then the Presbyterians are for they generally suspend whole Parishes from the Sacrament except some few of their covenanted disciples for divers yeers together without any law or rule at all the Presbyterians generally doe not so or if some doe forbeare communions for a time it is not upon such principles as the Independents maintaine and they doe all they can to expedite the removall of all scandals from the Sacrament wherein the Independents refuse to joyne with them Secondly the Independents deny not onely the Sacrament of the Lords Supper as hath been said but they deny the Sacrament of Baptisme to all such as are not the children of their covenanted members the Presbyterians accept of them for a federall holinesse professed by their parents and if there were no more but these two differences betwixt them it were enough if men would not give up themselves to be grosly befooled by flattery and calumny to cry out upon the Independents for their injurious invasions upon Christian libertie and to love the Presbyterians for their mildnesse and charitie in these particulars but further Thirdly The Independents Government though to speake properly Independency is rather Anarchy then Government is more terrible then the Presbyterian because under it are united all sorts of sectaries among whom many are of furious spirits men of blood and Belial and such as have made many bloody massacres in Germany and have threatned if otherwise they may not have their will their libertie they call it that they will have it by the sword for have they not an Independent armie to force their way against the Presbyterians I quoted to this purpose Mr. Prinnes fresh Discovery and Dr. Bastw Preface to his second part of Independency but I quoted not their words now I will became since Mr. Edw. put forth his last Booke some of that sect have spoken bloody words against his person and though he be so confident in the goodnesse of his cause and the integrity of his intentions that he beleeves he should lesse feare to be killed then any to kill him yet since I finde the Independents deale with the Presbyterians as Ahab did with Elijah charging him with his own fault 1 King 18.17 and that like the beast in the Revelation they speake like a dragon Revel 13.11 and are horned rather like a ramme then a lambe I thinke it fit that their spirit be better known that they may be lesse trusted especially where they pretend more meeknesse then they finde among Presbyterians their words are these Two Predicant Captaines apprehended and questioned for preaching in Newport Pannell against the Ordinance of Parliament of the 26. of April 1645. among other speeches averred a Mr. Prinnes Epist Dedic before his Fresh Discovery of some prodigious new wandring blazing-starres and firebrand fol. 3. p. a. That if the godly and well affected party were thus persecuted they should be forced to make a worse breach then what was yet when they had done with the Kings party telling one Ensigne Ratford and his Souldiers that they were worse then Cavaliers and that when they had made an end of the warre with the Cavaliers they should be forced to raise a new Army to fight with them And in Dr. b Dr. Bastw his second part of Independency not Gods Ordinance in the Preface fol. 14. p. b. fol. 15. p. a. Bastwicks Preface to his second part of his Independency not Gods Ordinance he saith thus Among those they thinke they may confide in they affirme they will not be beholding to the Parliament nor any body else for their libertia for they will have it and aske them no leave they have the sword now in their hand and they thinke their partie strong enough to encounter any adverse and opposing partie and they professe they care not how soone they come to outting of throats and speake of nothing but the slaughtering and butchering of the Presbyterians And though I confesse there may be many Independents and some I know to be such as your selfe of a meeke and gentle disposition yet as Peter Du Moulin said of many of the Priests in France that they were for their loyaltis not beholding to the maximâ—â— of Italy so I say for their mooknesse they are not beholding to the Principles of Independency for where they most prevaile they puffe men up in pride selfe-conceipt and disdaine of their Christian brethren though in gifts and graces farre better then themselves many of them being Anabaptists and of the spirit of that insâ—lent hereticke who when c Cum ego humaniter pro liuguae mea more cum compellarem nunquam aliter dignatus est mecu
loqui quam si cum cane sibi negotium fuisset Cum introductus fuisset in Curiam voluit primo Syndico assidere inde repulsus caput oculosque torquendo Propheticam Majestatem simulans c. Calvin Epist Farello p. 62. Calvin had conference with him and entertained him with termes of humanitie vouchsafed him none other language then if Calvin had been no better then a dogge and he shewed the arrogancy of his minde by his carriage and behaviour as well as by his words offering to sit next to the prime Syndick of the Senate of Geneva and upon the repulse by the motion of his head and eyes signifying great weath he tooke upon him a Propheticall Majestie And albeit some take it for a proofe of the goodnesse of their cause that they have engaged many great and rich men in it which makes them as is truly d Mr. Baylie his Disswasive from Errours cap. 3. pag. 53. observed Though the smallest of all the sects of the time for their number yet the greatest for worth of their followers yet that in a true Christian consideration makes rather against it for by getting so many rich and great men unto their partie and ayming so much at such disciples with such neglect of others as is observed shewes that they are not minded as the Apostle was when he said to the Corinthians I seeke not yours but you 2 Cor. 12.14 but rather contrariwise so that if they would say what many by their actions speake they should tell their converts I seeke not you but yours or rather yours then you And secondly when rich and great men embrace Independency it may give great cause of suspition that they doe it because as rich they are apt to be high-minded 1 Tim. 6.17 and all high-minded men are the most legitimate sonnes of lapsed Adam who would be Independent upon God and be a God of himselfe and so they are apt to take up Independency rather out of an humour of pride then out of conscience towards either pictie or truth Fourthly It is apparent to all how ambitious many Independents are of all places of honour of power and profit of being Members in the Parliament prime Officers in the Armie Committee men and if any crosse them what wayes they finde out to be meet with them sending them tickets and calling them in question when they know there is no just cause of exception against them of purpose to cast an awe upon all men as if the authoritie of the State were at their service to secure their credits against all complaints how just so ever and to discountenance those who in an ingenuous and generous spirit oppose their usurpations which are now so visible to the view of all that are not wilfully blind that it is matter of great wonder that the Presbyterians who are more in number and dignitie then any sect whatsoever and if they were as active as they might much overtop them in power are so dull and indulgent towards them as to suffer them still to carry on their designe as they doe which in some Presbyterians for the time past may be imputed to their patience and meeknesse of minde being loth to offend such but if it should be so generall hereafter as it hath been it might be ascribed to a negligence and coldnesse in that cause which they should endeavour to promote with all their might in all warrantable wayes of zeale of industry circumspection and prudence Fifthly Though you assigne the iron Scepter to the Presbytery the golden to your Churches the truth is if the Independents were once as Independent as they would be they would be Masters of both metals both gold and iron and some of their party bragge they have both the purse and the sword in their power if so and in such a degree as they would have it but it is true but in part though too much they that now renounce appeales to Classicall Provinciall and Nationall Assemblies would appeale to the sword and then they would be ready to ruine those that would not be ruled by them to breake those that would not bow unto them Sixthly You cannot finde any thing in the Presbyterians principles nor in their practice as they are Presbyterians which may be matter I say not of conviction but of suspition of such a terrible government as you take upon you with so much confidence to charge upon them SECT XV. A pleasant reproofe of a misapplication of Scripture is no offence against the maiestie of the word how and in what cases a taunting speech may be allowed Smoke Pag. 35. I Wonder that one of your experience in the majestie of the word should be so pleasant with a Scripture allegory Light Here you impute unto me that which if truly objected would require a penitentiall confession on my part if untruly no lesse on yours that it may be more manifest it will be meet to take notice how my words come in upon yours and yours upon mine Vpon your misapplication of Matth. 9.17 Neither doe men put new wine into old bottles my a Mine Examination p. 20. words are these Conceiving the Penner to be a sober man I must thinke in this passage the Printers braine was troubled with the fume of new wine to conclude with non-sence for a rationall consequence and I beleeve no new wine and old bottles how new or old so ever can worse agree together then the foregoing evidence and the finall sentence of this paragraph Vpon my words your Comment is Smoke Pag. 35. Because the Scripture is of wine you jest on it as if it had made the sence lesse sober I am sorry my younger pen should reprove the aged for iesting which the Apostle saith is not convenient And truly it is not comely for the servants to play upon the master of the Feast or any thing in his house especially upon his wine which alludes so to his blood and which he hath promised to drinke with us new in his Fathers Kingdome Light To which I answer First That the Apostle Eph. 5.4 forbidding jesting under that word which in Morall Philosophy is the title of a vertue doth not forbid all kinde of jests towards all persons and in all cases for what was the Irony of God to Adam Gen. 3.22 and of Elijah to the Priests of Baal 1 King 18.27 but a jesting reproofe Secondly There is a great difference betwixt jesting at Scripture and at a misapplication of Scripture this may be taunted without any relish of irreverence at all to the other for example a man may give all religious respect due to the words of our Saviour Ioh. 21.16 Feed my sheep but when b Bellarm. Tom. 1. lib. 3. cap. 1. de Verbo Dei p. 184 185. Bellarmine abuseth them by wresting them and inferring from them the proofe of the Supremacy of the Pope over the universall Church I may deride the absurditie of his sequele without any
occasioned me to make such an amends for it as now I must doe In the last lease of your Quere when you had brought in your reasons for retarding the Governement you bring in two objections and make Answers to them the former is this c New Quere p. 7. Ob. 1. But the Temple was builded with all speed in Nehemiahs time and Haggai cals to the building Is it time c. Hag. 1.4 Before I bring in my Reply to your Answer I must minde you of a mistake in your single sheet which though it be but short is lyable to a very just exception for an errour in Story and you should have heard of it sooner from me but that I observed it not my selfe untill I found I was misguided by your allegation for I tooke it upon trust from you because I did not suspect you would misalledge any thing which did no way conduce unto your cause as the time of the building of the Temple doth not now though the errour were originally yours the correction may be mine which you may better receive from me then I might take misprision from you you say the Temple was built in Nehemiahs time but the truth is it was not as you affirme built in but before Nehemiahs time for the foundation of it was laide in the second yeare of Darius Hag. 2.10.17 i. in the yeere of the world 3452. 519 yeers before the Incarnation of Christ and it was finished in the sixth yeere of Darius Ezra 6.15 that is in the yeare of the world 3456. 515 yeers before Christs Incarnation but that building of Nehemiah was the building of the wals of Jerusalem Nehem. 2.17 18 19. and this was in the yeere of the world 3527. about 444. yeeres before the birth of the Messias this worke about the wals was a worke but of 52. dayes Nehem 6.15 the former about the Temple lasted about 4. yeeres as from the Scriptures forealledged may be inferred Now for your Answer it is this Yea but the materiall patterne was more clearely left and knowne then the Gospel patternes the other were more in the letter and these more in the spirit now there must be a proving of all things else there may be more haste then good speed as the Temple may be built by a false patterne as well as by a true and then better no building then no right Cedar to build withall This is all for which you challenge my silence and whereas you intimate some soliditie in it which I was not so well able to deale with as with the other part of your Answer Truly Sr. I neither had nor have any such opinion of it it seemed to me at first and it doth so now upon the review to be an intricate perplexed and confused jumbling of Metaphoricall and literall expressions together and not more darke for lack of light then weake for want of strength to that purpose for which it was framed and therefore I thought it more fit for a tacit preterition then for an expresse examination But if you will have this rather you shall have it and so I say unto it First that if the patterne were more cleare for building the Temple then the Gospel patterne for the setting up of a Church-Government why are you so confident and peremptory and punctuall for your Gospel patterne Secondly Why tell you us of Gospel patterns in the plurall number is there any more then one patterne of Government in the Gospel if so though the Independent patterne be yeelded to be a Gospel patterne which cannot be proved the Presbyterian may be so too for if there be more then one that rather then any other may be allowed to be another Thirdly when you say the other were more in the letter these more in the spirit what is your meaning by these words were there more formes and patternes of the Temple then one if there were why doe you not speake more clearely to the point of difference betwixt them if not why say you they were more in the letter and when you say these Gospel patterns are more in the spirit I would know whether they be written or not written if they be written they are as much in the letter as the other if they be not written how can you tell they be Gospel patterns Fourthly whereas you say The Temple may be builded by a false patterne if you meane it of the materiall Temple you deny the clearenesse of the patterne which before you professed And Fifthly When you say The Temple may be builded by a false patterne as well as by a true if you meane it of the materiall Temple in Ezra's time what is that to the Gospel Government in or since our Saviours time or if any thing it is to contradict your selfe who make the Temple patterne so cleare that there is no danger of a false patterne of misguidance If you meane it of the Government of the Gospel why doe you so confound what in the beginning of your Answer to the Objection you pretend to distinguish to wit the materiall Temple and the Evangelicall order of the Church Lastly whereas you say Better no building at all then no right Cedar to build withall what 's your meaning by this metaphor Cedar was the matter to build with not the patterne whereby the building was to be formed and set together which was the thing whereof you would make the Reader beleeve you made a fit comparison and shewed a materiall difference why the building of the Temple might be hastened in Ezra's time and yet the setting up of Government should be delayed in our time for which you have said nothing either to declare or assure what you tooke upon you to illustrate and make good unto your Reader whom I require now againe to judge betwixt us whether this passage of your Quere were not better omitted by me then remembred by you to put me to make such an Answer unto it as I have done SECT XXII Of staying for the Spirit to give light of instruction to the reformation of the Church Smoke Pag. 52. IS not that a very Gospel way to stay for the Spirits coming into the servants of the Lord take heed of denying inspired disciples you know it is a part of the fulfilling of the great Prophecie Act. 2. Indeed some of the Prelates many of them being uninspired themselves and having little of the spirit or none would needs say therefore that all inspirations and spirituall inlightnings were ended in the Church because ended in them and because they were so carnall themselves they thought none was spirituall and you remember how they made lawes even against the spirit in prayer Light First I confesse it is a Gospel way to stay for the spirits coming into the servants of the Lord the Apostles were commanded by our Saviour not to depart from Ierusalem but to waite there for the promise of the Father Act. 1.4 and they did so and there the
victory onely of your own abusive allegation or interpretation thereof Smoke Pag. 59. I did confider who was engaged a Parliament c. and had I not highly valued them I had not ventured so farre in my Quere Light Not so farre as to oppose retard and reproach the Church Government wherein they were so farre so publiquely engaged is this to value them to value them highly if such be the price you set upon such Honourable Patriots I shall never be ambitious of your good acceptation nor solicitous of your estimation of me whether the rate you set upon me be pretious or vile Smoke Pag. 59. I considered the fatall troubles which attended the Magistrates engagements with the Ministers Light If the Ministers engagements in Religion be right it is a happinesse that Magistrates be engaged with them and therefore on the one side promised as matter of great joy and glory to the Church that Kings should be unto it as nursing Fathers and Queenes as nursing Mothers Isa 49.23 and on the other required as a dutie to pray for Kings and for all that are in authority that we may lead a quiet life in all godlinesse and honesty 1 Tim. 2.2 and in all Ages to this day the orthodoxe party have much desired the Patronage of Princes and civill States in their Religious ministrations as a meanes to propagate the Gospel in the power and puritie of the Ordinances of Christ and if the Parliament should which the Lord forbid yeeld to such a toleration of Religions as you propound I would know whether you would not desire the security of State for that licence you lust after if any should oppose you therein and would you not have the power that granted it engage so farre as to make it good unto you and to suppresse those who would debarre you of the libertie allowed you We know the spirit of your partie by their speeches and some practises so well that we doubt not of this and we have cause rather to beleeve that you would not waite upon the Magistrates leisure to right you in such a case if you had power for more speedy remedy in your owne hands Smoke Pag. 59. And I considered the bloud which hath beene poured out by Nationall compulsion of teader consciences Light In what Nation doe you meane if in England as I suppose you doe either onely or chiefly I confesse that in the time of Popish Tyranny there was much blood poured out of the veâ—â—es of such as had tender consciences so tender that they could endure death more willingly then Idolatry And I deny not but the domination of the Starchamber and the High Commission were very Tyrannicall and injurious to tender consciences and very bloody especially the Starchamber to the porsons of such as came under their censure for I have read the reports of the cruel usager of Mr. Primâ—â— Dr. Bastwickâ— and Mr. Burton and truly Sir I could not but be affected with compassion towards Mr. Lilburne and with indignation towards his persecutors though he have often bewrayed a bitter spirit by many disdainfull contumelies against them upon the reading of the late Relation of his sufferings proved before the Right Honourable the House of Peeres Feb. 13. 1645. wherein it is testified that a Pag. 3. he was whipped from Fleet bridge to Westminster so cruelly that the cords bruised his shoulders and made them swell as bigge as a penny leafe and wheales on his backe bigger then a Tobacco-pipe and that the Warden of the Fleet caused him to be gagged in such a cruell manner as if he would have torne his jawes in pieces But did not the Parliament so farre abominate the Tyranny of these Courts as utterly to depose them and to exclude the Bishops out of the House of Peers and will you compare their engagements for the puritie and unitie of a reformed Religion and Government with the intolerable-Tyranny of such mercilesse oppressours And for the tender consciences so much so plausibly pleaded for by you and your partie many who had good meanes to know Sectaries and no bad minds to mis-report of them finde that for a few tender consciences among them there are many leprous ulcerous blinded hardned and cauterized consciences to which if the State should be so tender as you would have them it would be cruell to farre better Christians SECT XXVIII What a Trumpeter Mr. Saltm is his reproach of the Parliament plaine enough though rather implied then expressed A challenge of him to prove his insinuated suggestions of Treason Blasphemie c. in my Examination of his New Quere Smoke Pag. 59. ANd like a spirituall watchman I could not but blow my Trumpet Light The premises considered your Trumpet is as the Trumpet of Sheba the sonne of Bichri sounded to sedition a Sam. 20.1 Smoke Pag. 59. And for my comparison of Papists and Prelates I appeale to the world if there be any reproach whether it be not in the Interpreter rather then in the Authour Light For my comparison of Papists and Prelates If you compare Papists and Prelates it is not so great a reproach to Prelates for the most part to be matched with Papists as for the Presbyterians to be likened to the worst of either as you make the comparison but you should have said further for my resemblance of such as desire and endeavour the speedy setting up of Government to Papists and Prelates for so you made it in your Quere p. 8. I appeale not to the world that is too wide a compasse for a Iudicatory as well as for a Church but to the ingenuous and impartiall Reader whether the Parliament making as much haste as they can to finish the Governement that they may establish it by their civill Sanction be not implicitly taken into that imputation and let him judge also whether the reproach be in the Authour or in the Interpreter Smoke Pag. 59. If it be lawfull say you to draw in consequent conclusions and then father them I could prove you to speake Treason Blasphemie Idolatry Atheisme Heresie nay Independency which some of you may thinke worse Anabaptisme Separation which would seeme to be as hatefull to you but I judge you not in any such sort nor had I spoken so farre now but in a just vindication Light If it be lawfull why should you doubt of it but that it is lawfull If I have any premises which you can make parents to bring forth such corrupt and criminall conclusions spare me not Sir nay I challenge you to lay downe your antecedent in my words and bring in your consequent of Treason Blasphemie Idolatry Atheisme c. out of them which if you can doe by any faire and unforced deduction I will take you for an unerring Oracle and follow you with an implicit faith with punctuall observance and imitation of you whithersoever you goe through all your vatiations of Heresie and Schisme though you ramble all over the Catalogue of them
as Irenaeus Epiphanius Philastrius Brixlensit and Augustine of old or any later Haeresiographers have set them forth but if you cannot doe this as I know you cannot with what conscience do you give out a suspition or insinuation of such abominable guilt what an ungodly guile is this how far from the Christian charitie of a man pretending the spirit of meeknesse and moderation as you doe a Smoke p. 2. nu 3. Let a spirit of meeknesse say you runne in the Artery of Preaching and Printing how farre from finceritie to raise such a smoke of infamie and reproach upon the reputation of him whom you style sometimes b In the Inscription of your Letter a Friend sometimes c Smoke p. 26. a Brother and to whom you professe a threefold respect for his age learning and place in your Letter unto him this sâ—rely is the beame in your eye d Your Letter to me p. b. you spake of while you are curious to take out the mote in mine eye and for that you say of Independencie worse thought of then Treason Blasphemie Idolatrie Atheisme c. I know no Presbyterian that thinks so of Independencie ut sic abstractively but considering the concurrence of many dangerous and damnable opinions with it and their protection and propagation by it it may perhaps be truly said that Independencie extensively comprehensively and effectively though not formally or intensively may be worso then other errouts or heresies forced under that supposed golden head or embraced in its â—â—ver 〈◊〉 though they be at the best but as the belly and thighs of brasse and at the worst as legges of iron and feet in part of iron in part of clay as in Nebuchadnezzars Image Dan. 2. vers 32 33. I should require and expect your ingenuous acknowledgement of this injurious and uncharitable charge but that you have directed me to another remedie of the wrong you doe me where you say in your Epistle to me If you finde any passions in my Booke charge them upon mine unregenerate part for I finde that when I would doe good evill is present with me According to this distinction a female disciple of some Antinomian Teacher who would be thought too good a Christian to be a member of any Congregation that met in a Steeple-house made her evasion from an accusation of these for when her Mistresse charged her for stealing her linnens and other things which she found in her chest or trunck she denied that she stole them and when she asked how came they to be laid and locked up there Did not you doe this No said she It was not I but sinne that dwelleth in me That this is no tale fained or taken up on trust to reproach such professours as pretend to an extraordinarie straine of Evangelicall perfection but a true storie will be made good by evidence beyond exception to such as shall question the truth thereof But whether true or false you will haply say what is this to you Truly so much as her excuse for her theeverie hath the more conformitie with your excuse for your calumnie but I bring it in but occasionally and it is more pertinent I confesse to mind you of your owne faults then of others Smoke Pag. 59. You say you will conclude with my Politicks c. The Answer to this see in the Epistle SECT XXIX The charge of misapplication of Revel 18.1 iustified against Mr. Saltm his deniall The expectation of new lights which some Sectaries teach Papisticall fallacious and dangerous Smoke Pag. 59. YOu say of my Text Revel 18.1 that at I began so I and with misapplication of Scripture Misapplication is a word sooner writ then proved and my resons were rather crowded then ordered in my paper the Scripture was this For the Angel that came downe from heaven hath great power and the earth is lightned with his glory Light If you would cleare the Scripture from misapplication you must shew how it came in with a for as a reason of the precedent passage your next words before it are The Gospel dares walke abroad with boldnesse and simplicity when traditions of men like melancholy people feare every thing they meet will kill them and then immediately not a word betweene you say For the Angel that comes downe from heaven hath great power and the earth is lightned with his glory If this be not a misapplication of Scripture I adde further if it be not an absurd one and your defence of it ridiculously vaine and your appeale to the Reader a presumption that you take him to be very stupid or so fond as to follow you in all you say with an implicit faith let the judicious and impartiall Reader judge Smoke Pag. 59. Which Scripture there applied doth hint to any that will not rather cavill then interpret that my reason for delay of Government was in this An Angel was yet to come Light You said before your reasons were rather crowded then ordered though I know not why you should put your selfe into such a precipitation of haste If so it is not strange they should be misplaced and those cast behind which should come before as in a crowd it falleth out And truly for this testimonie and the reason of it with what went afore it it comes in a great deale too late to be pertinently applied for you had ended your reasons such as they were for the delay of Government a good while before and now were at the end of your second Objection where there was roome enough before you loosed your Pen from Paper to have made a reference of that Text to its proper place and to have told your Reader what you meant by it as now you doe and then I should have told you that that Text is as much misapplied for want of truth had it come in where it might seeme to be most certaine as here for want of sense and sutablenesse to the precedent words For The Government of the Church is as you have acknowledged before a Scripture Government and unlesse you waite for an Angel from heaven to bring another Gospel who by the doome of the Apostle should he come should be welcomed with a curse Gal. 1.8 you must not looke for another Gospel Government if you refuse the Scripture light in expectation of Evangelicall Revelations take heed you comply not with the Papists whom you pretend to abhorre making a Bellarm. de notis Eccles Tom. 2. l. 4. c. 15. p. 278. Propheticall light or revelation a note of the Church and pretending Revelations from b Legend aur fol. 255. p. 1. col 1. Portifer seu Breviar in usum Eccles Satisbur part Estrval in Festum S ri Egid. Sept. 1. lect 9. printed Paris pervid Francisc Regnault an 1555. Thelmes of the Saints out of Villegas Ribad vol. 1. part 1. p. 87 88 98. Angels And if you say your Brethren the Anabaptists have their revelations and many