bookes when being compared to those which were trulie knowen to be Hippocrates his owne they were iudged to be vnlike and because they were not knowen to be trulie his at the same time when the rest of his writings came to be knowne So the ecclesiasticall writings of men are no otherwise knowen whose they were but because in the times wherein euerie one wrote them he acquainted and published them to whom he could and from thence by a continued knowledge from one to another and farther confirmed they cap. 9. came to their posteritie euen to our times In like maner he concludes of the holy Scriptures If you will follow the authoritie of the Scriptures which ought to be preferred before all other follow that which from the times of the verie presence of Christ by the dispensations of the Apostles hauing beene kept throughout the whole world came commended and famouslie knowen to our times By all which it is euident that Augustine meant not to make the Catholike Church of his time the author of his beleefe touching the Canonical Scriptures but the Catholike Church of the first times who came neerest to the writing and deliuerie of the Scriptures from the hands of the Apostles and the Apostolike men that wrote them for whose testimonie and commendations sake the Church succeeding is also beleeued What is this to the supposed Catholike church of our daies by which you meane the Popes kingdome when euen the true Catholike church of later times neither hath nor chalengeth to her selfe any credit in this matter but as she can porduce the testimonie of the Catholike church in the first times Lastly Augustine there saith Nisi me commoueret Ecclesiae authoritas He only ascribeth to the Churches authoritie that it is a motiue and the first motiue to induce an vnbeleeuing man to thinke well of the Scriptures but hee resteth not in this motiue Hauing thus begun he proceedeth after in searching the Scripture to finde by what spirit they were written and by the authority and teaching of that Spirit as the vndoubted word of God to embrace them not man now but God himselfe inwardlie strengthening and enlightening his â—inde as he is before alleadged What makes all this for the authoritie of the Popish falsly called Catholike church to lead mens consciences into captiuitie by her interpretations or determinations either of the Canonicall Scriptures or of their sense Nay what makes this for such authoritie as vnder the Churches title you would claime to depriue Christians of any better assurance either touching the Scriptures or their sense then it receiued from the authoritie of the Church that is of men no lesse subiect to errourthen themselues But you would faine knowe how the Protestants that beleeue nothing but Scripture can by Scripture prooue against Luther that S. Iames his Epistle is Canonicall Scripture Euen in like manner as wee can prooue S. Pauls Epistles and other Scriptures inspired of God to be Canonicall Scripture For thinke you that that Spirit by whose inspiration holy men of God wrote the Scriptures doth not still breath in the same Scriptures by meanes of which Spirit the word of God Hebr. 4. 12. liueth and is mightie in operation and by that speciall vertue differeth from humane writings yea euen those that are written of Scripture matters Either then you must diuide the Spirit from the Scriptures when Gods children reade it which you cannot doe without dishonour to the Scriptures or you must needes confesse that out of the Scriptures inspired of God Gods children doe sufficiently prooue vnto their owne consciences and against all gaine-sayers that the whole Scripture and euery part thereof is Canonicall that 1 Cor. 2. 4. is a souereigne rule to guide the Church in all points both concerning faith and maners For as the Apostles preaching so his writing and all Scripture inspired of God hath in it selfe plaine euidence of the spirit and of power that our faith should not be in the wisedome of men but in the power of God Thus out of S. Pauls Epistles wee can prooue S. Pauls Epistles to be Canonicall And out of S. Iames his Epistle wee can prooue S. Iames his Epistle to be Canonicall and generally the whole Scripture prooues it selfe to be Canonicall and from it selfe the Church receiueth receiueth witnesse of it selfe If you be ignorant of this it is because you haue not receiued of the annointing of that Spirit by whom the Scriptures were inspired And now cease any longer to disport your selfe with this carnall question out of what Scripture the Protestants can prooue S. Iames his Epistle to be Canonicall The sheepe of Christ doe knowe the shepheards voice and they knowe it not by report but by it selfe they discerne it To conclude because there is danger in expounding the Scriptures contrarie to the true sense intended by the holy Ghost albeit not equall danger as in refusing the holy Scripture indited by the holy Ghost as Augustine insinuateth Confess lib. 12. cap. 23. 24. as in the greater that is the approbation of Canonicall Scriptures wee dare not remit all to mens voices though they be the Church so in that wherein errours is lesse dangerous yet dangerous too that is in determining the true sense of Scriptures we dare not build our faith vpon the wisedome of men because as hath beene alleadged out of Augustne we haue learned of our Redeemer in â—â—llo hoâ—ike spem pouere to put no trust in any man but onely in the plaine euidence of the spirit that speaketh in the Scriptures which so long as we doe with faithfull prayer and humble submission to his teaching according to the promise they shall be all taught of God weare assured to be led into all truth Isa 54. 13. Iohn 6. 45. necessary to saluation which security the Papists that rest in mens authority can neuer haue PAPIST Seauenthly wittingly and willingly they corrupt the text of holy Scripture for example to make the people beleeue that images are vnlawfull in Tyndals translation where Idols be forbidden vsually the word Image is placed in steed thereof and therefore in S. Iohn we find it thus traÌ„slated Babes keep your selues froÌ„ images 1. Ioh. â— 21. And for triall we will appeale to their later Bibles printed by Christopher Barker for there we read thus Little children keepe your selues from Idols PROTESTANT Not to stand long in these points so sufficiently answered long agoe by Doctor Fulke against Martine and Doctor Whitaker against Reynolds both of worthy and blessed memorie first it is so plain that the Greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth in the proprietie of the word signifie an image that Gregorie Martine neither can nor doth denie it Secondly as vse hath restrained the name Idoll from the generall signification to note onely wicked images and such as are abused to Gods dishonour so is it well knowen that both in vulgar and popular vse and also in the generall vnderstanding
and in sin hath my mother conceiued me it conuinceth that all the frame of the thoughts of Psal 51. 5. mans heart is onely euill continuallie that in vs that is in our flesh dwelleth no good thing it prooues vs to be dead in trespasses and sinnes and therefore to be the children of wrath Whereby we are stripped of all conceit of free will of all presumption Gen. 6. 5. of our owne righteousnes and is the most vniuersal schoolmaister to lead all men vnto Christ In this so high a principle of faith I say your Church and his children hauing either no faith at all or a faith of many colours and manie Eph. 2. 1. 3. shapes notwithstanding your infallible iudge boast no longer of your one and the same Cutholike faith in all the world Your vaine and foolish contumelie which you cast vpon the Protestants that for triall of the scriptures they repaire to the spirit and for triall of the spirit post backe againe to the scripâ—â—res and sorunne round from the Scriptures to the Spirit and from the Spirit to the Scriptures world without end bewraies in you great ignorance of our doctrine For we diuide not the Spirit from the Scriptures nor the Scriptures from the Spirit that we should be faine to runne or go from the one to the other onely in the Scriptures we heare or learne of the Spirit whatsoeuer we know in the Scriptures we know it by the teaching of Gods Spirit that speaketh in them whatsoeuer we learne of the Spirit we learne it by and out of the Scriptures when we repaire to the Sriptures we repaire to the Spirit and when we go to enquire of the Spirit we go to the Scriptures If the God of this worlde had not blinded your eies that the light of this truth cannot shine vnto you you would neuer haue vpbraided vs with posting to and fro and running round But because you tell vs of roundes I pray you see what roundes your selires make in a matter of Faith of greatest consequence in all your Religion you giue out this conclusion as an article Subesse roâ—â—no Poâ—tifici omni creaturae est Extr. com de Ma. ior c. obed â—nam Sactam de necessitate salutis To be subiect to the Pope of Roâ—â—e is nâ—cessaerie to saluation for euerie creature we require you to proue it you alleage that the Pope is the heade of the vniuersal Church we yet aske for proofe you bring vs Tues Peirus super hane petraÌ„ c. Thou art Peter and vpon this rocke I wil build my Church tibi dabo claues to thee I wil giue the keies of the kingdome of heauen pasce oues me as feed my sheep feed my lambes We tell you Peter is one stone in the building but no rock or if you will needes haue a rocke his confession or Christ whom heconfessed is the rocke or foundation whereon the Church is builded we tell you the keies were giuen to Peter not alone but to the rest of the Apostles and hee with them commanded to feede sheepe and lambes and further whatsoeuer was giuen to Peter extendeth not to the Pope who is not Peter you say that Peter receiued those honours for himselfe and his successors and that the Church is built vpon him and them as a rocke and that he for himselfe his successors receiued the keies and left them to the Pope of Rome who now is Shepheard ouer sheepe and lambes all this you will proue by the scriptures we râ—â—uire you to proue that the Scriptures haue this sense you fetch your proofe from the Fathers we bring the Fathers as cleerly yea more cleerely for our interpretation then you can for Concil Nicen. Conat Afric yours you thrust on forward to the CouÌ„cels we bring you the authority of Councels to make the Pope no more theÌ„ a peere among other Patriarkes yea to cutte him off from medling out of his Dioces now you post to Councels confirmed by the heade that is the Pope whom either with Conncels or without you make your only infallible Iudge Are you now where you began do you thus daunce in a rounde and tell vs of roundes The Pope is head of the vniuersall Church Who saith so the Scriptures who shall interpret the Scriptures the Fathers Fathers not agreeing who shall iudge betweene them Councels Councels agree not who then shall strike the stroke the Pope And so the Pope is heade of the Church because the Pope will be so With these rounds you haue made giddie and brai nesicke innumerable poore soules God in his mercie stablish their hearts with grace that their eies may see the pitte before they fall into it Now I pray you what be those matters of Faith wherein the Protestants haue such mortall dissention without any hope of agreement they are many you say reckon them that we see how many they be The descending of Christ into hell and the lawfulnes of Archbishops and Bishops Is the question about Archbishops Bishops a matter of faith among Papists it may well be so who hold the Popes supremacy for the first and chiefe yea in effect for all the articles of their faith but surely Protestants holde it onely for a matter of order appertaining to the externall gouernement of the Church which is farre from a matter of faith your many matters of faith then are come to but one and that such a one as in ancient times was no article of faith at all in your Romane Creede no nor yet receiued in the East Churches In. expos Symboli as Ruffinus affirmeth Sciâ—nauÌ„ est quod in Ecclesiae Romana Symbolo non habetur additum We must know that it is not found added in the Creede of the Romane Church neither is the canse receiued among the East Churches And being receiued there Epist 99. was little certainty of the sense and meaning of it Ruffinus takes it to be all one with Sepultus est he was buried Augustine De Genes ad Lit. lib. 12. cap. as is afore shewed denies that Abrahams bosome is any part of holl and else where confesseth that neuer yet found that it is called hell where the soules of the righteous do rest And so little light can be founde of any such conceite as Papists De Christi anima lib. 4. cap. 5. haue of Christs descending into hell that Bellarmine saith Non est necessaria presentia animae Christi c. The presence of Christs soule to inlighten the Fathers with the diuine vision of him is not necessarie yet it seemed to be of congruitio that it should be present while that was in doing He makes it not of necessity but of congruity and that but in seeming neither this is as touching the sense but a weake matter of faith to obiect vnto vs that we dissent about it For we dissent not about the words of the article but receiue it we are
seeke a vision of the Prophets then they shall find that by the iust iudgment of Ezek. 7. ver 6 God the law shal perish from the Priest and councel froÌ„ the Ancient Which at this day they all find who feed vpon the lying vanities of Popish visions being deluded by the painted vizard of the Church which you haue put vpon your faces Wherefore if you could proue your Church the true Church which you can neuer do yet should you stil come to short of prouing that you stand so much in need of that your Church cannot erre and therefore Praying to Saints Purgatorie Pardons c. must be beleeued because your Church teacheth them God grant that your seduced Clients Iere. 2. 13. may leaue these broken pits that will hold no water and haue recourse to the fountaine of liuing waters the holy scripture thereby to trie euerie spirit whether it be of God or no and not blindly beleeue euery spirit that saith Iohn 4. 1. it is of God Yea but say you If the Church maie erre in faith then might wee aswell be damned being members of the true Church as of the false that not for a wicked life but for a wrong faith which cannot be First you shewe of what force all your proofes are that you are faine so shamelesly to beg that without any proofe which all men know to be most false for is it so strange to you that a meÌ„ber of a true visible church may be daÌ„ned euen for matter of wrong beliefe Are al the members of euery true visible Churhc true and proper members of the mysticall body of Christ Know you not that Saint Paul saith to Galathians Behold I Paul say vnto euerie men that is circumcised Christ shall profit you nothing yee are abolished from Christ whosoeuer are iustified by the law yee are fallen from grace And yet they to whom he spake were members of a true visible Church Therefore the members of a true visible Church may be damned for a wrong beliefe Secondly albiet the true visible Churches may erre daÌ„nably as the church of the Iewes in condemning Christ the Arrians in denying his eternall Godhead yet the true Catholike Church which is the body of Christ cannot erre damnably nor any true member thereof and yet euery member of the militant Church may erre but not damnably for euery error is not damnable no not in matter of faith some build vpon the foundation Timber hay and stuble 1 Cor. 3. 12. c. so long as they build vpon the foundation they themselues shall be saued but shall suffer losse of their worke by the fiery triall of Gods word Confessing therefore the infirmity and ignorance euen of the true members of the true Catholike Church in this flesh which is such no one of them can haue immunity from error yet it will not followe that any true member of the Catholike Church can be damned and yet he may beleeue amisse in some points of faith God open the eies of the blinde that they may discerne your dangerous and damnable sleight You would haue all your disciples hold themselues contented only with the Coliars faith to beleeueth as the Church beleeueth althogh they know not what the Church beleeueth To the intent you may bewitch them this is your sorcerie you tell them the Church cannot erre meaning your Romish church therfore they may securly beleeue whatsoeuer you bid theÌ„ so doing shall vndoubtedly be saued A coÌ„pendious Religion promising vnto men saluation without taking any paines to know the truth of God to search the scriptures to trie the spirits and to discerne of the true faith But what saith the scripture He that beleeueth and is baptized shall be saued he that beleeueth not shall be damned And what must Mark 16. 16. they beleeue that shall be saued That which the Apostles teach what must the Apostles teach All that Christ commanded Then must euery beleeuer discerne the truth of his Matth. 28. 20. faith by the vndoubted commandement of Christ that he may haue vndoubted comfort of his owne saluation Men will not take money for currant before they haue tried it by touch and weight and will any be so desperatly foolish as to beleeue euery spirit and receiue euery doctrine not trying by the touch of scriptures and the weights of Gods sanctuarie whether it be of God or no Yea but S. Paul affirmeth that the Church is the pillar ground of truth And this ought to be a great comfort to all vnâ—earned Catholikes It ought so indeede and to the learned too that the Oracles of God are committed to his Church and there onely the sheepe of God may heare the voice of their Shepheard Howbeit the vnlearned Catholiks shall be much abused if they suppose this Church to be the supposed Church of Rome or thinke that truth is pinned vpon any Iohn 10. 27. one churches sleeue or is indefinitly committed to the whole Church without submission to the trial of scriptures What is truth the scriptures onely shew where that truth is preserued and taught there is the true Church For the Church is the pillar ground of truth By the scriptures therfore all true Catholikes must learn to know the true church and receiue the truth of the scriptures from the mouth and by the ministrie of the church but not vpon the bare and onely cred it of the church For to omit Theophilact who interpreteth truth in this place as opposit to Iewish shadows which sense may very well be followed and so you haue no shew of helpe here Chrysostome vpon the place giueth this sense Hoc est enim quod fidem continet ac praedicationemâ— quippe verit as Ecclesiae columna firmaâ—entum est This is that which keepeth faith and preaching for truth is the pillar and firmament of the Church Where you see the church ministerially keepeth faith and preacheth the word as the Pyramis in Paris did keepe the memorie of your Iesuitical parricide but in a nother sense the truth by Chrysostoms iudgmeÌ„t is the pillar and firmament of the Church And Dyonisius Carthusianus Estque columna firmamentum verit atis id est verit atem Euangelicam fortiter portat c. The pillar and ground of truth saith he that is it doth stroÌ„gly beare the truth of the gospel note the truth of the Gospel which the church hath receiued not any truth inueÌ„ted or taught by the church without or beside the Gospell Therefore out of this place we thus conclude against you The Church of God is the pillar and ground of truth that is beareth the truth by the preaching of the Gospel before men The Church of Rome is not the pillar and ground of truth for it beareth not the â—ruth before men by the preaching of the Gospell but her â—â—ue superstitions Inuentions besides the Gospell and contrary to the Gospell at praier to Saints Purgatory
are your expositions Your last meanes is the Decrees of generall Councels Can you bring vs the Decrees of generall councels touching all Scriptures what sense they doe and ought to beare If not then belike there is no knowne sense of any other Scriptures then such as generall Councels haue expounded the rest are buried in obscurity But Augustine will not yeeld to that who among other meanes to finde out the true interpretation of Scriptures aduising diligently to search for both De Doctr. Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. such precepts of good life and rules of faith as are plainely set downe in the Scriptures whereof the more a man findes the more capable he is vnderstand the Scriptures yeelds this reason of his aduise In his enim c. For in those words which are euidently set down in the Scriptures are found al those things which containe faith and maners of life Next do generall Councels all agree in one in this also Augustine is a witnes against you writing against the Donatistes who pleaded Cyprians letters Cyprians sentence Cyprians councell But Augustine preferreth the holy Scripture aboue all the writings of Bishops yea aboue all generall Councels allowing the Scriptures alone to haue certaintie and vndoubted truth in them but all the writings of Bishops yea the determinations of Councels to be subiect to the correction of other Bishops after them and likewise of other and later Councels his wordes touching the Councels are Ipsa enim concilia c. For the verie Councels De baptis cont Douat lib. 2. cap. 3. which are held through euerie Region or Prouince doe without all doubt giue place to the authoritie of plenarie or generall Councels which are held from out of all the Christian world and the verieplenarie or generall Councels the former oftentimes are amended by the later when by any experiment of things that is open which was kept close and that is knowen which did lie hid What could haue beene more plainely spoken to bring into order not onely all mens writings but euen generall Councels also to be iudged by the Scriptures and not to iudge ouer the Scriptures Wherefore were it true that you so vainlie boast of that you had the consent of ancient Fathers and the Decrees of generall Councels for you yet were these no sure foundation to build our faith vpon Neither doe wee take it to be any disgrace vnto vs that we refuse to receiue our faith and vnderstanding in the mysterie of godlinesse from men because wee feare the curse which is against the man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arme yea rather wee account it an honour to vs both before God and man Ierem. â— â— that wee together with the whole true church of God are built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets Iesus Christ himselfe being the head corner stone that we trie euerie spirit by the Scriptures whether it be of God or no that we prooue Eph. 2. 20. 1. Ioh. 4. 1. 1. Thes 5. 21. Act. 17. 11. Ioh. 5. 39. Esa 8. 20. all things as the men of Beraea did by searching the Scriptures according to the commaundement of Christ and holde that which is good that we haue recourse to the law and to the testimonie and whosoeuer speake not according to that word we holde them to be in darknesse and to haue no light in them From this hold you shall neuer driue vs and yet thanks be to God you haue hitherto beene beaten at your owne weapon and for the principall points of faith and religion haue beene put to silence by a cloud of testimonies both out of auncient Fathers and Councels howsoeuer your brasen foreheads cannot blush nor your leaden hearts relent but still you will crie Fathers Fathers Councels Councels PAPIST Secondly to giue more light and force to the former reason concerning the aucthoritie of Fathers I say that one or two or a few of them may be deceiued and therefore such particular opinions we admit not and so refuse S. Cyprian about rebaptization so we make no doubt but the vniforme and generall consent of them liuing in diuerse and farre distant places and at diuerse times cannot but proceede from the Spirit of all truth that gouerneth the Church and therefore S. Austine speaking of the Fathers that liued Contr. Iuli. lib. 2. cap. 10. before his time hath these excellent words That which they found in the Church they helde fast that which they learned they taught that which they receiued of their fathers the same they deliuered to their Children S. Paul likewise saith that Christ hath Eph. 4. 11. 14. giuen Pastors and Doctors that flourished in the primitiue church and the Protestants cannot deuie but that with their pens and labours they did defend the faith against the Arians Pelagians Donatistes and manie more such pestilent heretikes PROTESTANT First we haue shewed you before that by the iudgement of Cardinall Caietane whom Andradius defends in it it is lawfull yea and necessarie sometimes in interpretation of Scriptures to leaue the streame of the Fathers and follow a diuerse interpretation from them all which might at no hand be admitted if as you presume wherein they generally consent they had beene all guided by the spirit of truth Andradius doth not onely say so but giues good reason for it The literall sense of Scripture saith he doth onelie yeeld arguments to confirme points of religion But the Fathers in infinite staies of the old testament chieflie do leaue the literall sense and follow the tropologicall or allegoricall sense In deciding of Doctrines then which is to be done by the litterall sense what helpe shall we haue from the consent of Fathers who very seldome giue the litterall sense Another reason hee giues that the Fathers in giuing the sense of Scriptures haue giuen verie diuerse sense and vnlike one to another Where then shall wee finde that generall and vniforme consent that you speake of Secondly the spirit of all truth neither guideth the whole church nor any member therof otherwise or by any other instinct then by from the holy Scriptures whereby euery spirit is to be tried So farre then as the Fathers either seuerally or ioyntly doe accord with the manifest truth of Scriptures we follow them without doubting whatsoeuer they deliuer swaruing manifestly from the Scriptures we leaue what they haue probably spoken we receiue as probable alwaies reuerencing their antiquitie gifts and labours but not accounting their iudgements the rule of our faith Thirdly you much abuse S. Augustine in drawing his words which yet serue not your turne from his meaning Lib. 3. cap. 7. manifestly set downe in other places Depeccat merit remiss hauing before alleaged against the Pelagians Cyprian Ierome he addeth this caueat I haue not recited these things to anie such end as if we leaned to the sentences of anie disputers whatsoeuer they were as to Canonicall authoritie but that
your owne putting falsly yet neither can you so hide your owne shame nor dazell the eyes of the godly by casting the mist of your owne deuise before them The question therefore is not as you say Whether for the true sense of the Scriptures we should not rather beleeue the auncient Fathers then those that liue in our daies neither onely whether Scriptures or Fathers deserue more credit which is but a consequence following vpon that which you affirme touching the interpretation of Scriptures by the consent of Fathers as an infallible rule but this is indeede the question betweene vs and you Whether the Scriptures inspired of God in all fundamentall points both concerning faith and manners be not so cleere and plaine that they do sufficiently interpret themselues against which cleere interpretation none other is to be receiued from what authoritie so euer it come We affirme you deny And by denial make the interpretations of men of more credit then the interpretation of scriptures We haue the word of God on our side Ps 19. 7. The testimonie of the Lord is true and giueth wisedome to the simple 2. Tim. 3. 15. The Scriptures are able to make wise vnto saluation Ioh. 5. 39. Search the Scriptures for in them you thinke to haue eternall life and they testifie of me The men of Berea searched the Scriptures to trie those things which Paul spake which had bene verie vainly done if the Scriptures had not bin a leere light vnto them to discerne of all necessarie doctrines We haue the godly Father S. Augustine cleere for vs in his Quaeapertè c. In those things which are euidently set down in the Scriptures are al those points found which coÌ„teine faith maners of life This being the state of the questioÌ„ let all godly men see whether it be not a reproch to the Spirit of God to accuse his word of such darkenes and obscurity that for the greatest part of the Church of God is not able to vnderstand it no not in the principall matters of faith and godlinesse Could not the Spirit of God in the Scriptures speake to the vnderstanding of the simple you will say yes but perhaps he would not Our Sauiour Christ giueth thankes to his Father for reuealing the doctrine of the kingdome of heauen to Babes and Matth. 11. 25. hiding it from the wise The Apostle Paul saith If our Gospel he hid it is hid in them that perish in whom the God of this world 2 Cor. 4. 3. hath blinded their eies that is of the vnbeleeuers that the light of the glorious Gospell of Christ should not shine vnto them The sheepe of Christ heare the voice of Christ and know it from the voice of strangers and therefore will not follow strangers How Ioh. 10. 4. 5. 27. could the sheepe of Christ who now heare his voice onely in the scriptures know his voice from the voice of strangers if the scriptures were of purpose written obscurelie yea let all reasonable men consider whether it be not a sandie foundation to build our faith vpon forsaking the scriptures inspired of God to depend vpon mens lips especially the eternall word of God hauing branded all men with Psal 116. 11. Rom. 3. 4. Psal 146. 3. Ier. 17. 5. this marke that all men are â—ers and therefore expresly commanding not to trust in any child of man yea cursing euery man that putteth his trust in man Augustine answering to an obiection of the Donatists pretending to be written against him by a cheife man of the Catholikes besides that he chargeth that epistle to be false counterfaite answereth thus Muliò minus c. Much lesse doth the Catholike Church Cont. Crescon lib. 3. cap. 80. regard it whose cause we plead against you from which confidently resting vpon so many diuine testimonies no humane testimonies of any maÌ„ be they true or false can take away that truth which it inioyeth forbeare such things I am but one man the Churches cause is â—n hand amoÌ„g vs not mine the Churches I say which hath learned of her redeemer to put her trust in no maÌ„ To conclude make not the simple people beleeue that we bring into coÌ„parison the interpretations of this age with the interpretations of the ancient Fathers which is a meere calumnious slander of yours We compare not mens interpretations with mens but Gods with mens God hath so tempered the Scriptures that things plainly spokeÌ„ do interpret others not so plaine 2. Cor. 3. 5. That the faith of Gods children should not bee in the wisedome of men but in the power of God Let the cause question be thus propounded and then none of the sheepe of Christ will euer make question of the matter PAPIST Fourthly concerning generall Councels I say that they cannot possiby erre in matters of faith for then might we lawfully disobey them and Christ willeth vs to take him as an Heathen or a Publicane that will not obey the Church then also should Hell gates preuaile against it contrarie to our Sauiours promise Then were Matth. 18. 17. Matth. 16. 18. 1. Tim. 3. 15. it not also the pillar and ground of truth as S. Paul affirmeth We therefore that imbrace the definitions of generall Councels possesse the true sense of the Scriptures and not the Protestants that refuse to stand to their iudgement PROTESTANT If Augustine said true as he is before alleaged that the former general Councels haue bin corrected by the later then surely in his iudgment the former must erre and one of them without doubt did erre But what say you to the determination of the Councell of Constance and Basile which you deny not to haue beene generall by whom the Pope is made De Baptis cont Donat. lib. 2. c. 3. inferior to the Councell Did they erre in it or not Albertus Pighiâ—s spareth not to affirme that they decreed plainelie against nature against the manifest Scriptures against all antiquitie and against the catholike faith of Christ So when generall Councels determine not for your tooth you will not sticke to charge them with error and shifts enough you haue to auoide them either they were not gathered by the Pope or not subscribed by the Pope or thinges were violently caried in them as your Melchior Canus obiecteth against Lib. 5. cap. vlt. diuerse Councels and specially against the sixt generall Councel in Trullo which in many points distasteth you And when the account is cast vp it is the Pope that cannot erre for those onely determinations of Councels go for current with you that are confirmed by the head which is the Pope But let vs see your strong reasons whereby you prooue that generall Councels cannot erre First you say Then might we disobey them And Christ willeth vs to take him as an heathen and a publican that will not heare the Church Let vs see your reason in forme If generall Councels may erre then may we disobey them
can all the Doctors Fathers or Councels in the world beget the true vnderstanding of the Scripture in any one mans heart It is the worke of the heauenly teacher that is the holy Ghost which Augustine ingeniously confesseth Sonus verborum nostrorum Tract 3. in Ioan. epist aures percutit magister intus est c. The sound of our words beateth the eares the minister is vvithin Thinke not that any man doth learne any thing of man We may admonish by the noise of our voice if there be not to teach within our noise is in vaine Will you knovv it indeed brethren Haue ye not all heard this Sermon How manie will depart hence vntaught For my part I haue spoken to all but to whom that annointing speaketh not within whom the holy Ghost teacheth not within they depart vntaught Teachings that are outward are some helpes and admonitions He hath his chaire in heauen that teacheth the hearts Thus farre Augustine Neither do we send men to any other spirit then that which teacheth in the Scriptures for euen in hearing and reading of the scriptures the spirit createth in our harts the true vnderstanding of them as our Sauiour interpreting the Scriptures to his disciples withall opened their hearts to vnderstand them and on the Sabbaoth day opening Luk. 24. 32. 44. 45. the prophecie of Esay withall he opened their hearts that they vvondered at the gracious vvords that proceeded out of his mouth And Philip began at that Scripture which the Eunuch Luk. 4. 22. Act. 8. was reading and preached to him Iesus when the holy Ghost opened his heart to beleeue and when Paul spake Lydiaes heart was opened This spirit which is the spirit of Act. 16. 14. wisedome is also the spirit of adoption and therefore as all the sonnes of God to whom appertaineth the adoption haue receiued also the spirit of adoption and he that hath not the spirit of Christ is none of his so all that are wise vnto Rom. 8. 9. Ioh. 20. 31. Eph. 1. 17. 18. saluation all that doe knowe that Iesus is that Christ the Sonne of God and by beleeuing haue life through his name haue likewise receiued the spirit of wisedome and reuelation to inlighten the eyes of their vnderstanding to knowe the things that are giuen them of God and vvhat that hope is of his calling and vvhat the riches of his glorious inheritance is in the Saints Neither is the whole Scripture so obscure as you would beare men in hand I haue before shewed you the confession of Augustine In those words which are euidentlie set downe in De doctr Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. Epist 3. the Scriptures are found all those things which conteine faith and maners of life And in another place Those things which the Scripture euidentlie conteineth as a familiar friend it speaketh without obscuritie to the heart of learned and vnlearned The spirit of God not onely prouiding the Scriptures but also that the reader should meete with the true meaning of them De doctr Chr. lib. 3. cap. 27. as Augustine saith Yea but say you when euerie one must examine by the touchstone of Scripture what other do teach and so admit or reiect it as they find it agreeable or not agreeable with the word of God if this be not a priuat interpretation there can be none found in the world Feare you not thus to open your mouth against heauen and to call that interpretation which is grounded on the Scriptures a priuate interpretation When our Sauiour referred the Iewes to seeke witnes of himself by searching the scriptures did he referre them to a priuate interpretation when the men of Beraea searched the Scriptures vvhether those things that Paul spake vvere so or no. Did they follow a priuate interpretation By this which you call priuate interpretation Augustine exhorteth to search out the meaning of the Scriptures that for the illustrating of the more obscure De doctr Chr. lib 2. cap. 97. speaches examples be taken from the more manifest and some testimonies of certaine senses take away the doubt of the vncertaine In obscure places where the sense cannot be found by conference with other plainer places of scripture Augustine admits to giue reason to the sense we bring but saieth he This custome is dangerous it is more safe to vvalke by the diuine scriptures De doctr Christ lib. 3. cap. 27. vvhich standing in translate vvords when vve vvill search either let such sense be made of it as hath no coÌ„trouersie or of it haue let it be determined by the same Scripture vvheresoeuer the witnesses thereof can be found and applied Neither is this to make euery priuate vnlearned artificer iudge ouer the Scriptures but to set all both learned and vnlearned to schoole to the Scriptures from whence as Augustine saith before alleaged vve haue learned to knovv Christ and to knovv the church of Christ. But if we follow Popish guides we must learne to knowe the scriptures for the sense of the scripture is the scripture yea and Christ himselfe by the tradition of the Church and receiue such a sense of scriptures and such a Christ as Fathers and Councels by their authority shall deliuer vnto vs not hauing left vnto vs any power to trie the spirits by the Scripture the infallible touchstone of all spirits by which both Christ and his Apostles were content to Iohn 5. 39. Galat. â— 8. be tryed If this be not a priuate interpretation there can be none found in the world PAPIST To assure vs this is Canonical scripture and which is not there is no other way but to cleane vnto the authoritie of Gods Church Therefore S. Austen saieth I would not beleeue the Gospell if the authoritie of Gods church did not mone me And the Protestants Contr. epist. fund cap. 4. caÌ„not in this question euer giue coÌ„tent either to themselues or other if they take any other course For where do they finde in the whole Bible that S. Iames his Epistle for example is Canonical scripture is it not well knowen that Luther did reiect it But faine would I know how they can according to their principle which is to beleeue nothing but scripture proue this point against Luther out of the scripture most certaine it is they cannot and that which we say of S. Iames his Epistle may be said of any other part of the Bible if one be disposed to deny it Seeing then that there is equall danger of saluation in expounding the scriptures conâ—rarie to the true senseintended by the holy Ghost as there is in refusing that for Scripture which vvas indâ—ed by the holy Ghost vvhat man of reason can denie but that if the church doth tell vvhich is the scripture and vvhich is not that the same Church is likevvise to tell vs vvhich is the true sense of the scripture which is not We therefore that interprete them as the church teach vs haue the
the Angels we hold them neither for patrons nor protectors Which honor we giue onely to the Sonne of God the head of Angels Neither doubt we but as farre as their ministerie extendeth toward vs so far they know our necessities and prayers But infinit knowledge which is proper to the Deity we ascribe not vnto them Neither is such limited knowledge in them any sufficient ground to leade vs to pray vnto them The Angel that was sent to informe Iohn the Euangelist in the visions reuealed notwithstanding the wonderfull counsell of God whereof he was then a minister an interpreter yet would not suffer Iohn to fall downe to him which is much lesse Apoc. 19. 10. then to pray to him For to whom we pray to him very religiously and lawfully we may fall downe Many reuelations of things secret remote were granted to the Prophets in old time and namely to Elisaeus yet read we not that any man did euer pray to them though some in reuerence to their ministerie the power of God administred by them did fall downe to them And yet how finely or rather grosly you can assume without proofe or shew of proofe that we may pray to our mortall brethren haue you either precept or example for it in all the Scripture Indeed we request and receiue one from another the helpe of our mutuall prayers call you this praying to our mortall brethren thus can you proue one paradoxe by another These be your forcible and plaine reasons for your falsly named Catholike faith PAPIST Seuenthly in the Geneua Psalmes annexed to the Communion Limbus Patrum booke and vsually sung in their churches they confesse that Christs soule descended to the Fathers that were in Limbo For this article of the Creed He descended into hel they turne into Meetor after this manner His soule did after this discend Into the lower parts To them that long in darknesse were the true light of their harts PROTESTANT First you corrupt the Meeter changing for your purpose Spirit into Soule The meeter hath Spirit not Soule Secondly what the translator meant by Spirit and by the lower parts it is not easie to define vnlesse himselfe had left some glosse vpon his owne meeter and considering that the lawe of meeter restrained him from libertie of plaine speech it were an iniury to him to wrest his words coÌ„trary to his meaning That by lower parts he meant your Limbus you haue nothing to perswade you but your owne preiudice that caries you so to vnderstand it It may be that by Spirit hee meant the power of his eternall Spirit which in his suffering and after his suffering wrought both in heauen vpon earth and vnder the earth euen vpon the bodies of the dead who were in the lower parts and lay in darknes as generally the dead do Hilarie speaketh to like effect Monetur terra capax enim mortus huius esse non poterat c. The earth Hilar. in Matth. Can. 33. Potestas aeternae virtutis was moued for it could not conteine him that was dead The rocks were clouen for the piercing word of God and the power of his eternall vertue had broken into all places how strong and well fenced soeuer And the graues were opened for the prisons of death were vnlocked And many bodies of the Saints that slept arose for he inlightning the darknes and shining into the obscuritie of the lower places for the preseÌ„t raising of the saints asleep took away the spoiles of death it selfe What is the power of his eternall vertue but his eternal spirit Whereby he brake into the holds of death the darknesse of death the obscurity of the lower parts caried away the spoiles of death did inlighten with the brightnes of his power the whole region of darknes to the coÌ„fort of all that waited for his coÌ„ming All which Hilarie saieth were done not by his soule but that nature which he calleth PenetraÌ„s Dei vertuÌ„ potestas aeternae vertutis that is his Deity And the scripture speaking of the faithful departed although the soule body by dissolution be in diuerse regions yet speaketh of the whole person together So saith the Apostle Peter of Dauid the patriake He is both dead and buried his sepulchre remaineth with vs. And the like in many Acts. 2. 29. other places wherfore the Power of Christ piercing to the dead was a coÌ„fort to all the faithfull departed If this were his meaning as by comparisoÌ„ of the former place of Hilarie we may very well iudge what seruice I pray you can this meeter do to your Limbus But whatsoeuer his mening were his priuate interpretation is no principle of our religioÌ„ neither can you be ignoraÌ„t that there be that hold some locall discent of Christ yet be far from holding your Limbus so might the author of that meeter likewise do Albeit we hold that article for a principle of our religion yet are not the sundry expositions thereof according as seuerall men haue conceiued so many principles of our religion you must therefore seeke further for principles to serue your turne PAPIST Lastly Martin Luther taught the Real preseuce maintained Real presence it against the Zwinglians as others of our Aduersaries caÌ„not denie and yet doth the Apologie of England penned by M. Iewel call him a most excellent man sent of God to giue light to the world How then can it be contrarie to the scripture for if it were so then surelie could he not be a man sent of God for the matter of the Sacrament is no small point but such as themselues will say that a wrong beliefe thereof bringeth damnation PROTESTANT Did Martin Luther teach Popish Reall prefence did he teach Transubstantiation of the bread into the body of Christ Did he teach carnall eating of Christs flesh In the Act. 10. Augustane confessioÌ„ wherein he was a chiefe part thus they coÌ„fesse Of the supper of the Lord they teach that the body bloud of Christ are truely present distributed to them that eate in the Lords supper We say the same in the Articles agreed vpon at Marpurg Octob. 3. 1529. Whereunto Martin Luther first subscribed we all beleeue and thinke that the Sacrament of the Altar is the Sacrament of the true Histor August Confess Spiritual eating body and bloud of Iesus Christ that the spirituall eating of this body bloud is chiefly necessary for euery ChristiaÌ„ man We say the same In certaine articles setting the state of the controuersie betweene Luther and Pâ—â—cer and the rest of the Cinglians as they are called Although we say that the bodie Artic. 2. In aliqua mole of Christ is really present yet Luther sayth not that it is present locally to wit in any bignes circumscriptiuely but after that maner whereby Christs person or whole Christ is present to his whole Church and to all creatures Luther saith not that Christs