vnto the infideles and hypocrites for they maye wel hold them selues for assured that theyr infidelitie hypocrisie shall be distroyed and theyr glory shal be turned into shame and confusion And in asmuche as we be coÌ„men thus far forth it doeth seme vnto me that these mattiers haue bene sufficientlye declared and al the misterie of our redemption after such sort that I hold my selfe verye well satisfied for my part and bicause I feare to make the werye wyth takynge ouer muche of the at once let vs here make a reste to an other tyme. Phylyp Thou canste not make me werye in suche mattiers yet neuertheles I am coÌ„tente to folowe thyne aduice Farewell Natha To God I commende the vnto whoÌ„ I praye to gyue vs suche grace that we maye at that greate daye of Iudgmente be found blameles and irreprehensible by the fauour merites of Iesus Christe Phy. So be it ⧠In these ii laste diologes is opened the other parte of the crede the which do concerne the holy Goste and the church wherein is declared that whyche appertayneth to the one and the other and is shewed what is the true churche of Iesu Christ what is hyr polesie ministration what goodes she receiued of him Nathanaell IN as muche as we haue done the greatest parte Phylype I shall desyre the to haue pacience and to take the paine to expound vnto me the reste that we maye se the end of thys mattier Phy. It is reason and I wyll not deuye the my payne seynge it bryngeth â—o lesse consolation vnto me then to the. Natha It semeth vnto me that there be yet two partes to be declared the one of the holye Goste and the other of the churche Phyly It is true but we maye well conioyne that of the holye Goste wyth that of the churche go forth as we haue begonne Natha It doeth folowe I beleue in the holye Beleue in the holy gost Goste it is no further neade that I shoulde aske howe thou vnderstandeste thys for by that thou haste alreadie declared vnto me the fayeth thou haste in the father and in the son I vnderstande wel thou confesseste that thou putteste all thy truste in the holye Gooste And that thou beleueste that by the same the father and the sonne doeth sanctifie the as by Iesus Christe thou art iustified by the vertu of the same holye spirite Phylype It is true Natha Notwythstandynge I vnderstande that yet woulde I verye gladlye thou wouldeste expounde me more largelye what thou vnderstandest properly by thys holy spirite Phy. The same vertue power mouynge and efficatie of God by the which the father and The holy gost the sonne worketh in vs nourisheth viuefieth as we haue all readye sayed in declaryng oure fayeth of the father and the sonne Natha In asmuche as thou beleueste in him thou holdeste hym for a God as wel as thou doeste the father the sonne Phy. Yea wythout doubte for I vnderstande not by thys anye maner of thyng out of god or besyde God but in God of hys propre substaunce Na. Wherefore callest thou hym spirite the father the sonne be they not also spirite seinge thou confesseste they be God that Iesus Christe doeth openlye testifie that Ihon. iiii God is a spirite the whyche muste be honored in spirite and trueth Phy. I deme not but God is a spirite and so by consequence the father the sonne but we must first considre The signification of the word spirite what is the signification of thys sayinge spirite and whether we speake of the essence and vnitie of God or of the distinctions which be in the same which the auncient fathers haue called the persones of the trinitie Natha And what is the propre signification of thys same vocable spirite Phy. I haue saied before that maÌ„ caÌ„ not find propre wordes as to speake of diuine thinges but muste borowe them of humayne thynges by similitude of the same declare the thynges celestiall and spirituall Natha I remeÌ„bre it well but tel me theÌ„ what is the natural significatioÌ„ of this same word and howe it agreeth wyth God Phy. Spirite signifieth properlie inspiration blowing wynd bycause ther is nothinge more subtille amonge corporall thynges nor that lesse can be perceiued by vewe or syghte theÌ„ the wind and the spirite it is ofteÌ„ tasteÌ„ in the scriptur for to signifie the things inuisible diuine Na. Therefore I thinke we call the soule vnderstaÌ„ding spirit not that it should be taken but for a wind but bicause it is inuisible sodaynd lyght as the wynd Phy. EueÌ„ so likewise God is called a spirite not that we shuld thinke that he were nothing eles but a wynde whych passeth but to make vs vnderstand that we ought not to Imagin that he shoulde be anye maner of thynge visible materiall or mortall but one nature essence perfecte inuisible incorruptible and immortall whyche wyll also be serued with the herte and theÌ„ soule of the spirite and vnderstandynge whyche be immortall not wyth ceremonies corruptible thinges Nathana Accordynge to thys signification the father the sonne and the holye Gooste be then al called spirite and all for one cause but expounde vnto me wherefore thou calleste more perticularlye the holye Gooste spirite then thou doest the father and the sonne Phy. WheÌ„ I behold the diuine esseÌ„ce vnitie of god I call them al spirites but when I coÌ„sidre the personal distinction of the whych we haue spoken here before I do then principally call the thyrde personne spirite bycause that worde doeth better open hys propertie then anye other we can fynde Thou muste also vnderstand that often tymes in the scripture The holie spirite for hys gyftes and graces Esai xi i. Cor. xii the holye Goste is taken not for the essence substaunce of hym selfe but also for hys giftes and graces Nath. Wherfore callest thou hym holye Phy. For to deserue hym from creatures and for to declare that I speake of that vertue power and mouynge of God whych is in God by the whych the father by his sonne Iesus doeth sanctifâ—e saue and vinifie vs. Nathana What callest thou holy Phy. A thynge pure and ferme seperated froÌ„ all corruption pollution and from all prophane carnal vsage a thing whole entier and inuiolate and all togyther dedicate vnto God I â—al theÌ„ the holy gost because he is such in dede and that by hym God in Iesu Christ sanctifieth maâ—ne that is to saye he purgeth maketh cleane consecrateth and dedicateth hym whollye to hym lelfe seperatynge hym from all vyle and prophane vsages to serue The christian sayutes onelye vnto hym Therfore also be the christians called sayntes because they be anoynted wyth that oyntemente and wythdrawen froÌ„ the seruitude of the deuyll coÌ„secrate by Iesus Christe for to serue the onelye God Natha I vnderstande nowe wherfore Iesus Christe dyd sende a greate
be spiritual be commune vntâ—â—â—l but there is an othere coÌ„munion betwen◠〈◊〉 Sayntes that yet be lyuynge them whiche be departed for eyther of theim haue theyr estates aparte And therefore is there no suche CoÌ„munioÌ„ betwene saintes lyueinge and them that bee dead communion betwen the Sayntes that be departed and vs as there hathe bene betwene them in the time that they lyued and theÌ„ that lyued wyth them at the leaste we haue no testimonye of the holye scriptures for they serue not nowe vnto the church wyth the giftes and graces whyche they in theyr tyme receyued of God for the edification of the same for they haue fulfilled and ended theyr course and theyr ministration whyche nowe is committed vnto others and of the other part thei haue no more nead of vs nor of oure goodes for they be out of al necessitie Nath. Oughte we not then to honour them Phy. We may not honoure them as though they were present wyth vs nor do vnto them reuerence nor salute them nor speake to them nor presente vnto them of oure goodes nor anye maner of seruice for othere honourâ— nor seruice can we not do vnto them but in folowynge theyr holye doctrine and holye lyfe and conuersation as they haue folowed Iesus Christe for those be the reliquies that they haue lefte vs in the whych they would be honored by vs and so then when wee haue the â—â—lye scriptures in reuerence the whych god hathe geuen vnto vs by them then do we honoure theyr reliquies Nathana It is then greate folye to offre vnto Offerynge to sayntes them breade wyne candels golde and siluer and other thynges lyke seynge they haue no maner of nede Phylyp That is a furye or follye more then paâ—â—imrie it weare muche better for to offre vnto the lyuynge Images and Sayntes for to accomplishe that whyche the Apostle exhorteth vs to admonishynge vs to communicate vnto the necessitie of the sayntes it is verye cleare that he speaketh not there of the Sayntes departed but of the lyuynge and of the pore membres of Iesus Christe beinge among vs languisshyng and ouer preste with pouertie and necessitie Nathana I doubte not but those offerynges were more pleasynge vnto God Phi. Such were they of the primatiue church for the gatherynge spendynge and distributynge of the whiche the churche at that tyme haddâ— hyr deacons to serue at the tables and At. vi Rom. xvi vnto the necessitie of the pore we can no here fynde chapell churche or Image more meete for the practisynge of thys excommunicatioÌ„ and to offre vnto the Sayntes then in visitynge the hospitales pore wydowes orphaÌ„s fatherles sycke lame neadie and indigeÌ„t Vpon suche Sayntes ought the goodes of the churche to be employed and spente and vpon them that serueth hyr and haue nede Nathan That same were a goodlye thynge but tel me yet what seameth it the of brotherheades and monkerye for seynge there is but Deut. vi i Timo. ii Ephe. iiii one christian church one communion of laintes one God one mediatour of God man one spirite as we haue coÌ„fessed hytherto and that all is but one gospell one Baptisme one Ceane one fayeth and that all the christians ought to be in one selfe bodye one selfe herte and one selfe soule it seameth to me that ther oughte to be but one religioÌ„ and one brotherheade seyng that al the christians be brothers haue all receyued one selfe spirite of fayeth and christiaÌ„ religion Phy. There is no doubt but they which haue bene the authours of the monasticall lectes and that foloweth theim suche as they be at thys presente tyme and those brotherheades lykewyse taken of the folowynge of the panyms be Apostatase from the true church of Iesus Christe for as Sismatykes they do deuide breake and teare the communion of saintes for as there is but one God so can there be but one religion The whyche S. Iames doeth diffine in thys maner the religion that is pure and without spot towardes God the father is thys Viset the fatherles widowes in theyr neades and tribulations and be not spotted defiled wyth thys worlde he doeth not saye that the true religion is to shute thy selfe in a cloister or to dwell in the deserte to be disguised in diuers habites to eate and deuour the pore widowes fatherles vndre the colour of long praiynge for suche religion is to much pharisaicall but the christian religioÌ„ doth lye in fayeth whyche maketh vs studye vnto all puritie and innocentie to exercise our charitie towarde our neyghboure whych is the true marke of the true christians disciples of Iesus Christe the Abbot of that religion is God the father and the gardian is Iesus Christe and the religious brethrene be al true christians and faythfull for as the Apostle testifieth the spirite of God witnesseth vnto oure spirite that we be the chyldrene of God by the whyche we crie Abba that is to saye father then in as muche as Abba doeth signifie father and that wee take God so to be and call hym father there is theÌ„ no doubt but he is the Abbot and founder of oure religion Act. ii Ephe. ii the whyche he doeth conserue maynteyne and gouerne by Iesu Christ hys sonne whom he hath giuen to be head of the church Ihon. vi x. and into whose handes he hathe putte vs all to be vinified sanctified vnite and conioyned wyth hym by hys holy spirite and the habite that we muste put on in thys religion is oure Lorde Iesus Christ the newe manne whiche we muste put on and of the olde Adam for Ephe. iiii we muste chaunge the skynne and the herte and not the ayer and the coote or clothes Nathana In asmuche then as God is the father of vs all and that wee make inuocation vnto hym by that name it doeth folowe also that we be all bretherne and so wyll Iesus Christe that we call oure selues and then if we be all brethrene wee be then one brotherhead I can not then vnderstande that here is anye other brotherhead but that of the holye Gooste by the whyche the churche is assembled and all the sayntes vnite and conioyned in one communion Phy. Thou concludeste verye well therefore Brotherhed Math. xiii confesse we fyrst in this crede the faith which we haue in the father whyche saueth vs by Iesus Christe hys sonne and doeth sanctifie vs by hys holye spirite whych be of one selfe essence and diuinitie wyth the father in the whyche we beleue and put al oure truste we laye fyrst the fundation and the cause and after we come vnto the churche whiche vpoÌ„ the lâ—me is founded builded Howe can we theÌ„ saye that we be of the brotherhead of Saynt Bernarde and of Saynte Sebastian and of The brotherhed of saynts suche othere lyke or of Saynte Barbara or saynt Katheryn or of oure Ladye or of anye other of the holye Sayntes what soeuer they be
for we can nother call theÌ„ fathers nor monor we be not bâ—etherne by the reason of theÌ„ nor vnite and conioyned by theyr spirites but if they haue bene true and fayethfull they be oure bretherne and haue beene lede wyth oneselfe spirite And lykewyse maye we also saye of all the monasticall sectes and diuersitie of religions For if Saynt Paule haue called the Corinthyans Sâ—smatikes whyche sayed I am of Paule and I of Cephas and I of Appollo what title or name shall I gyue them whyche saye I am of the religion of Saynte Fraunces and I of Saynte Dominike and I of S Benet other suche like which be in greater numbre amonge the christians then euer they were amonge the panims maye we not well saye vnto them wyth the Apostle is Christe deuided hathe Frauncys or Dominike dyed for you or are ye baptised in theyr names In as muche then as wee are baptised in the name of the father of the sonne and of the holye Goste what haue we neede of anye other religion but of that in the whyche thys holye spirite doth raygne which doeth learne vs to make innocatioÌ„ vnto the fathers in the name of Iesus Christ hys sonne whych hath taken vs all into theyr sauegarde and protection what haue we nede of anye othere rule but of that the whyche Iesus Christe hathe The Rule of the Religion of Châ—ist Gal. vi broughte vs from heauen Of the whych the Apostle doeth speake in thys maner all they whyche walke after thys rule peace and mercye be vpon them and vpon Israel of God Natha I haue learned manye goodlye poyntes by the occasion of thys coÌ„munion of saintes for thou haste not onelye taught me what it is but also what is the true excommunication religion and christian brotherheade and what is the honour dene vnto Sayntes therfore nowe expounde vnto me the reste Phy. Because we haue abyden solonge vpon these two articles of the church the communion of Sayntes wee maye here deuide oure matter and kepe the reste tyll an other tyme the which shal be shortly done Natha At thyne own pleasure be it ⧠In this laste dialogue shall be spokeÌ„ of the remissioÌ„ of synnes of the keyes of the kyngedome of heauen of the resurrection and immortall lyfe Nathanaell VVe haue done so muche by our Iorneis that we be al moste come to the ende of the crede seyng therfore we be arriued thus farre fourth our hertes must not faile vs for the litle waye we haue to go Phy. I haue better courage then euer I had tell me therefore what foloweth Natha The remission of synnes what is the vnderstandynge of thys article Phy. I coÌ„fesse by these wordes that I beleue that as there is one churche assemble and vnite by the holye spirite in the same oâ—e coÌ„munion of all goodes that the synnes lykewyse and the faultes be pardoned vnto the fayethfull by the grace goodnes and mercye of God whyche doeth quitte theim all theyr dettes to the ende they should not be rekened vnto theim at hys Iudgemente nor that they should not beare the payne whych they haue merited and deserued Humayn Satisfacion merets Nathan Seynge there is remission and forgiuenes it doth appeare folowe that ther is nothynge of our satisfaction for wher ther is pardone there can be nothyng of our merites Phylype There is nothynge more certayne for the dete is not forgiuen to hym that satisfieth and payeth wherfore it doeth folowe in as muche as there is remission and forgyuenes for vs that the satisfactioÌ„ is of sum other then of oure selues and that we can presâ—t no other recoÌ„pence vnto god but the satisfaction of his sonne Iesus Christe for whose loue we obteine of the father pardon of al our sinnes Natha And this pardon and remission caÌ„ we not obteygne but in the churche Phy. No for as at the time of the floude none coulde be saued whyche were wythout the shipe or arke of Noe so none can auoyde the Gen. viii Pâ—â—â—r iii. No sâ—luacion ouâ— of the church iudgement of God and obteygne grace and pardon of hys misdedes excepte he be a true membre of the church incorporated in the bodye of Iesus Christe persenerynge wyth the people of God in the vnitie of the fayeth Natha It foloweth then that all cismatykes heritikes infidels excommunicate and al authors of sectes whych be deuided and seperated frome the churche can haue no pardon of theyr synnes but abyde in death and damnation vnto suche tyme they be recouciled wyth hyr Phy. It is euen so Nathana Tell me then by what meanes we obteyne pardon in the churche Is it necessarie to confesse oure synnes vnto the priestes and to haue theyr absolution for to obteyne this remission Phy. It is verye requisite that if we will that God pardon vs that we reknoweledge oure faultes but not to the priestes for it is not agaynste theÌ„ that we haue synned but againste God whyche onelye as mooste soueraygne kynge maye gyue vs grâ—ce and pardon and thâ—refore as we haue synned agaynste hym euen so muste we conteste vnto hym our synnes and aske of him pardon accordyng to the example of Dauid of Daniell and of othere holye prophetes seruauntes of God For as Saynce Iohn sayeth if we confesse oure sinnes he is faithfull and wyll heare vs. Natha I vnderstande well we must confesse oure selues vnto God fyrste but is it not re-requisite that we confesse our selues vnto meÌ„ Phy. We maie confesse vs vnto menne in diuers sortes as fyrst If we haue offeÌ„ded anye we oughte to reknoweledge oure faultes towardes hym and aske hym pardon and enforce oure selues to returne into fauour wyth hym for we can not obteygne pardon of god so long as the iniury we haue done vnto one neyghboure doeth accuse vs before hym askynge vengeaunce agaynste vs excepte wee studie to reconcile our selues vnâ—o him whoÌ„ we haue offended and thys confession maye be called brotherlye recoÌ„siliation the whyche Iesus Christe doth greatlie recommend vnto vs. Ther is yet another maner of recoÌ„siliatioÌ„ towardes men the whych may be boeth publyke and particuler for when we haue beene Open coÌ„fesâ—â—on in errour and abused in Idolatrie and superstition and haue offeÌ„ded God we ought not to be ashamed to reknoweledge our faultes opeÌ„lie and to gyue thankes vnto God as did i timo i. Math. i. Act. ii iii. saint Paul writinge vnto Timothe and they whyche dyd come vnto the baptisme of Iohn Baptiste and they whych were conuerted by the pâ—eachynge of Saynte Petre and also of the Ephesians whyche dyd burne the bokes of sorcerie euen so theÌ„ as I may reknowledg and confesse my faultes openlye in thys maner â—efore the church of God euen so may I do in perticuler or secret vnto my neyghbour for to haue councell and consolation of him or for to reconcile my selfe vnto him if I haue Perticuler coÌ„fession offended hym or to the ende he praye
to God for me vnto suche confession doeth Saynte Iames exhorte vs sayinge Confesse your selues one to an other and praye eche one for other he doth not say confesse the vnto the priestes for as we oughte to praye the one for the other not the priestes onelye euen so ought we to reknowledge oure faultes one to an other coÌ„fesse our infirmities for to giue praises vnto God for the entertayning of amitie amoÌ„ge vs euerie one to seke the quietnes of other but I haue not founde in all the holye scripture that God hath coÌ„mâ—unded vs to go to tell all our synnes in the eate of a priest for that is impossible God doeth not so muche desire the reliting of our sinnes by perticuler Math. xvi as the coÌ„trition sighes sorowes of the herte the teares as we haue exemple in S. Petre which did much better coÌ„fesse his sinnes with his hert his eyes theÌ„ with mouth Natha I find that that thou saiest is very good but I woulde yet fayne knowe howe thys remissioÌ„ is practised in the church and howe we be partakers of it is it not by the bulles indulgence and pardons gyuen by the Pope Phy. It is by pardon and indulgence but not of paper and perchemente sealed wyth waxe or lead as those whych the Pope gyueth but by the indulgence and bulles that the celestiall father hath sente vs frome heauen by hys sonne Iesus Christe wryten in oure hertes wyth hys owne propre finger and by hys holy spirite sealed with his precious bloud ratified and confirmed by his death passion Natha The bulles and pardons of the pope be then nothynge worth Phy. Yes they profit them that gyueth them as towchyng theyr bodies bycause they take money for them but they brynge greate domage and hurte vnto theyr soules also vnto the bodyes and soules and goodes of theim that receyue them for in as much as they seke remission of synnes by anie other meane then by the bloude of our Lorde Iesus Christ they do not beleue the remissioÌ„ of sinnes the which they confesse the whych is in the church of Iesu christ wherfore they abide alwaies in their sinne daÌ„natioÌ„ subiectes to the cuâ—sse maledictioÌ„ that S. Petre dyd gyue vnto Simon Magus his monei Nata Thou wilte then saye ther â—â— no other true pope that maie giue vs indulgence and pardon for to deface and take awaye ours sinnes but Iesu Christ but by what meanes doth he make vs partakers of hys pardons and indulgences Phylype By the ministeri of the keyes of the kingdome of heauen that is to say by the predication preaching oâ— hys worde whiche is the true keye of knowledge Nathanaell And who then hath these keyes â—uc xi Math. xxiii Math. xvi Phy. The church to whom Christe hathe gyuen them and be put in vre and practise by al true euangelicall Apostles pastours ministers priestes Nata Haue they theÌ„ authoritie and power to pardon synnes to absolue men Phy. Not of them selues but by the ministration of the keyes and preachynge of the gospell Natha Speake thys more clearlye Phy. There is but the onelye God that may pardon and forgyue synnes and that maye gyue grace but wheÌ„ by his ministers he doth offre vnto vs Iesu Christe hys sonne by his worde and in hym remission of oure sinnes he that beleueth is saued vnbounde and deliuered frome his synnes and he that beleueth not abydeth bound and damned as the minister openeth vnto hym by the worde Natha Then the ministers be but seruauntes ambassadours haue no authoritie nor power â–ª but so much as theâ— take of the word in that they do faithfullie set forth theyr message and ambassade Phy. No for none can pardon the synnes but God when man doth open the word of god it is not maÌ„ that speaketh but it is the spirite of God that speaketh in hym by the whyche the bearer is bounde or losed accordyng to hys fayeth or vnbeleue Therfore dyd Iesus Christ blow toward his disciples gaue them the holie gost before he sayed vnto them whose synnes soeuer ye forgiue shal be forgiueÌ„ whose synnes soeuer ye retayne shal be retayned he woulde by that shewe that it was the holye Goste that dyd pardon them and not they whyche he dyd vse as hys instrumentes and messengers Natha I vnderstaÌ„d wel it is as an ambassadoure whyche if he fayethfullye execute hys Math. x. Ihon. x. chaâ—ge the prince confirmeth it that he doeth if he do otheâ—wyse he wyll not coÌ„firme it but punish hym greuouslye Phylype It is as a man that will open a gate it he haue no keye or if the keye that he hath be not mete for the locke he caÌ„ not opeÌ„ it and therfore in asmuche as Iesus Christâ— is the dore and the waye by the whyche onelye wee maye go vnto the father Rom. x. Luc. xi and wee can not goe vnto Iesus Christe but by fayeth whyche openeth vnto vs the dore and all the treasures that be in him and fayeth cometh by hearynge of the worde of God whych is the key of knowledge it doth wel folowe that al the power of the Apostles of theyr successours is there limited that he that hath not this key is no minister of christ Natha I may theÌ„ well vnderstande by thys that the power of the pope of byshopes and priestes doeth extende so farre as they folowe the worde of God and God doeth approue and confirme that whych they do by it that whyche they do wythout it or agaynste it he doeth condemne all Phy. If thou wylt se the practise of thys considre howe S. Peter dyd vse at Hierusalem he dyd open Iesus Christ penaunce and remission of sinnes in his name Practies of the keys Act. ii iii. vnto the Iewes they whyche the worde dyd touche at the herte and beleued in it were losed by hys ministerie accordynge to the promise of Iesu christ saing that he that beleueth Mark xvi is baptised shall be saued coÌ„trarye wise he that beleueth not shal be coÌ„demned it foloweth theÌ„ that al the infidels abide bound as by the open preachyng all the hearers be bound or vnbounde accordynge to theyr fayeth or vnbeleue euen so be wee by all the perticuler admonicions of the Gospell opened shewed forthe vnto vs by the seruauntes of God visitynge correckynge admonishynge or coÌ„solatyng of vs other in health or sikcenes Nathanaell Thys poynte is inoughe opened Resureccion of the fleshe declared let vs come nowe vnto that whych foloweth of the resurrectioÌ„ of the flesh and the lyfe eternall whych shal be for the end coÌ„clusioÌ„ wherfore be these two last articles put in Phy. For manye causes for wythout them al the religion were nothynge for if we beleue not the resurrection of the flesh that oure bodyes shoulde ryse agayne after thys i Cor. xv mortall lyfe we
hys goodnes loue mercie and tauoure towards man and it is not possible that he that knoweth hym otherwise shoulde loue hym if he loue him not he caÌ„ not willingly honour him â—or yet prompâ—lye and redelye obey hym bycause the knowledge that he hath is to muche vnperfecte for this is the true knowledg that doeth moue and enduce man to honour hym Natha And what is the true waye and maner to honour God wyll he that we offre vnto hym breade wyne candels or money calues sheepe rammes or other suche lyke thynges Phy. That were a greate blasphemie sacrilege to haue suche an opinion of God as to thynke that he whych hath made all thynges of whose hande we receyue all whyche is immortall incorruptible and in hym selfe whole and perfecte should neade or take pleasure i. Timo. ii in these corruptible thynges whyche he hath giuen vs for the sustinaunce of our pore mortall bodyes Natha Howe wylt thou then that man shall psal Cxxxv. Gene. i. Psal xv serue God And wyth what offering wil he that we present him Philip. God which hath made the sun the moone and the sters what neede hath he of our light he which onely is rich and perfect what nede hath he of our rychesse the which he him selfe hath gyuen vnto vs is he as a litle chylde whych must be appeased wyth an apple or as a mortall or corruptilbe man taking pleasure in caducte and transitorie thynges as meÌ„ do Natha What is it theÌ„ that maÌ„ may giue vnto him Phi. He requireth not that man shoulde gyue hym any thyng but that he shoulde receiue of hym for the nature of God is which our soueraine Lord is not to take but for to gyue do good vnto all Natha Wherewith shall man then serue him Phi. He can do no other seruice vnto God then doeth the pore begger blind soore lame and lazer and beynge all togyther vnprofitable askinge hys almes at the gate of a kynge or as an euyl doer thefe traytour and robber askynge hys pardon Natha Manne then hath no greate occasion to glorye in hys owne merittes Phy. And yet lesse Nathana Can man do nothynge els Phy. He neyther can nor may do that without the grace of god and his holy spirite do leade and coÌ„ducte him to the ende he shoulde haue no matter wherein to glorye but in God onely Natha That is not verye vneasye to do nor ther is no man vnto whome it shoulde not be easye ynoughe to serue hym seynge we muste but aske and begge Phy. It is more harde then it seme the for albeit that the wordes seme verye playne and easy neuertheles they compreheÌ„de great thynges the whych surmounte the humayne power Natha Expound me then those thynges Phy. Fyrst they do conteyne the inuoucation callyng vpon the name of God which is the moste greateste and moste singuler honour that we can do vnto him Natha What is there more Phy. We can not vnderstaÌ„d this inuocation wythout fayth for it is wrytten who so euer calleth vpoÌ„ the name of the Lorde shal be saued But howe shall he call vpon hym in whom he hath not beleued it doeth then followe that man can not call vpon God ryghtly wythout trusteyng in him be fully assured of his goodnes good wyll towardes hym Natha That is verye certayne Phylyp Then as thys same truste in God incite the and enduce the Gyuynge of thankes man to call vpon hys name and praye vnto hym in al necessities eueÌ„ so of the other parte doth it moue and enduce by the same to gyue thankes for all the benifites whyche he receyueth of hym knowlegynge that all goodnes proceadeth of him and that without hym maÌ„ is nothynge Here is theÌ„ an other parte of the inuocation and callynge vpon the name of God the whyche conteyneth the obeysaunce or obeydience whyche we owe vnto hys holy wyll whyche is a maner of action of graces or geuyng of thankes for from whence doth procede suche obeysaunce and all the good workes whyche the fayethfull can do in the honour of God then from the loue whyche he doth beare vnto him and it can not be loue without the knowledg of him that is beloued this loue then proceadeth of the knowledge the whyche he hath of God of hys graces and benefites whych doth incite vs patiently to put our truste al wholly in hym to abide looke for al at hys hand and to serue and honoure hym in all that we maye knowâ— to be pleasynge and acceptable vnto hym Natha True seruing of God lieth in fayth By all that I can comprehende and vnderstand al the seruice of God theÌ„ lyeth in fayth Phy. She is the fundation and sprynge for wythout hyr it is impossible to please God so can oure workes not please God excepte Hebr. xi that fyrste we be pleasaunte and agreable vnto hym for he doeth not accepte the worke bicause of it selfe but bicause of the persone â—hat doeth present it and it is not vnto hym acceptable but as the persone is vnto hym acceptable Natha He hathe then a respecte and is an acceptor of persones yet it semeth that the holy scripture saieth the coÌ„trarie Phy. That whiche I do say is not coÌ„trarie vnto the places whch thou so vnderstaÌ„dest but thou shouldest vnderstande that amonges the sonnes of men there is none whyche of hym selfe is acceptable Rom. iiâ— Act. x. vnto the celestial father but only he of whom he hath saied This is my welbeloued sonne in whome I am well pleased Seynge then that he onelye is pleasaunte vnto hym it is not to be thought that anye worckâ— Math. xiii can please hym but that whyche is done by hym for if we hated any persone he could do nothynge that mighte please vs and of the coÌ„trarye parte if we loued hym he could do nothyng that might displease vs but we would take all that he dyd in good parte if we wyll then please our celestiall father we must neither offâ—e our selues nor none other thynge to hym before we haue made appoyntmente wyth hâ—m and he receiued vs into hys grace fauour loue that caÌ„ we not obteine except we take awaye the cause whyche hath put the hate and dissention betwen vs and hym that is to saye the synne whyche can not be defaced Esaie iiii Iustification Act. xv Rom. vi xii i Cor. xii Ephe. v. Iohn vi xii and taken awaye but by the meane of Iesus Christe And therefore it is necessarie for vs to go vnto hym to be purged and made cleane and the meane to obteine thys by him is the fayeth by the whyche our hertâ—s be purified and we Iustified that is to say absolued and declared and pronounced Iuste before the iudgemente of God bycause that by the same fayeth we be vnite and conioyned wyth Iesus Christe beynge all membres of hys bodye vnto the whyche hys membres he doeth communicate all hys goodes
and i. Cor. i. Ephe. ii Gala. ii The rote of â—â— good workes Iohn v. Rom. xi maketh vs partakers of hys obeydience and ryghtuousnes so that it serueth nother more nor lesse then if it were oure owne propre Inasmuche then as Iesus Christe is in vs and we in hym that hys rightuousnes is ours and liueth in vs and dwelleth in oure hertes by fayeth and by hys holye spirite it is very certayne that that fayth can not be idle without bryngynge forthe good fruite seyng theÌ„ that he is the true vyne and good olyue tree vpon the whyche we be planted and graffed it is impossible but the fruite which we beare or bryng forth and the worke whyche we do shoulde not be to hym acceptable because of the good rote out of the whyche they spryng and bicause the celestiall father reknowledgeth the worke of hys sonne in vs for whose loue he doeth beare the imperfection whyche abydeth al wayes in oure fleshe durynge thys mortal life but it is cleane coÌ„trarie of the Infidels and reproued whyche can not be acceptable vnto God nor no workes that they can do bycause they be wythout Iesus Christe without whoÌ„ non caÌ„ be beloued of the father Nathana I do vnderstande nowe the cause whye the holye scripture doeth attribute the Iustification of man vnto fayeth and giue it so great prayses and who so euer vnderstode thys poynte as thou haste declared it should haue no occasion to be so much offended with thys doctrine as some be for they saye when the Iustification of fayeth is preached wythout Sclaunder oâ— Iustification by fayth the workes of the lawe that they wyll abolish and put awaye good workes Phylype They vnderstande verye euyl but that sclaunder doeth come of the doctryne of the Sophysters and hypocrites whyche hath learned menne to put the wayne before the oxeÌ„ as the prouerbe goeth to builde without fundation wherefore when they shoulde be reformed and otherwyse taught they do find it a newe and strange doctrine bycause they haue bene norished in suche a contrarye way Natha Tell me thys some thyng more clearlye The tre can not beare good fruite except Math. xii it be fyrste a good tre And therfore the good fruite doeth not make the tre good but the good tree makethe the fruite good but they wyll haue the fruite before the tre and wyll make the tre good by the fruite which is impossible Natha Thou speakest yet somthyng darkely Phy. Thou shalt haue it more clearlye They wyll haue rightuousnes in a man before it be in hym and wyll that he doeth workes of Iustice and ryghtuousnes and by the same to be Iustified But howe shal he do the workes of Iustice excepte he hym selfe be fyrste iuste and that can he not be but by the Iustice and ryghtuousnes of Iesus Christe and that can not he obteine but by fayth wherfore wyth good ryght is the honour of Iustification gyuen vnto fayth seynge that she is the rote and fundation of the same and of all good workes the whiche proceadeth of the same rote Nata I vnderstaÌ„d this now welynoughe but in as muche as fayeth hath such vertue declare vnto me what fayeth is Phy. Fayeth is a certayne and assured knowledge and a fyrme perswation and truste of the loue and mercy of God towardes vs for the loue of Iesus Christe hys sonne Natha A manne whych wyll haue thys faieth whole and perfitte what is he bounde to beleue Phylip. Al that is conteyned in the holye scriptures but The summe of fayth because that thys doctrine of fayeth is ample and large it is drawen into a briefe and shorte summe for the healpe sucoure of the weakenes and infirmitie of the humaine vnderstandynge and the memorie of the pore and simple people Natha What vnderstandest thou by that shorte summe is it the crede of the Apostles Phy. It is the verye same Nathana Wherfore is it called the Crede of the Apostles Phy. Bycause it is a short summe of the doctrine Apostolyke and a whole some conteynynge in fewe wordes the principal poyntes and articles of the fayth and christian religion Natha I desyre muche that thou woldest declare it vnto me poynte by poynte for it doeth not suffice to can saye it by herte and confesse it wyth the mouthe speakynge as the pies wyth out vnderstandynge what we do saye Phy. It is verye certayne that the confessioÌ„ of the mouth profiteth litle except it procede of faith froÌ„ the herte Nata That vnderstand I well and therfore do I desyre to haue a more playne vnderstandynge for howe can I perfectly beleue that which is coÌ„teined therin without the vnderstaÌ„ding of it for it is not possible that in those fewe wordes shoulde be comprehended al the apostolyke doctrine but it conteyneth greate matters and many goodly poyntes worthy to be well expounded and opened Phylype Thou takeste it not a misse and seynge the good desyre that thou haste I am verye well contente to satisfie the same but nowe I haue no conueniente leysure for it caÌ„ not be so shortely done wherefore thou shalte haue a litle patience vnto anone when I shall haue a more conueniente leysure the better to satisfie thy desyre Nata That is very resonable reasoÌ„ doeth require that I which would be taughte take the tyme whyche seameth to the moste mete but if thou â—arye longe I will come put the in remembraunce Phy. Thou shalt do well and fare thou wel to oure nexte meatynge God conducte and brynge the agayne shortlye ⧠In thys seconde dialoge is declared the fyrste parte of the Crede of the Apostles in the whyche is spoken of the trinitie and vnitie of God and pryncipallye of the father and of the proprietie vnto hym distributed and of the creation of all thynges and what fruite we oughte to beare NAthanaell I trust thou hast not forgotten the promise thou made vnto me therfore I am come to put the in remembraunce Phy. If thou haddeste not come I determined to haue come to the but thou hast preuented me Natha The greate desire that I haue to here vnderstaÌ„de the thinges that we haue communed of togither hath enflamed and steared me forward Phy. If thou haue a greate desire to heare I haue no lesse to expounde and confarre wyth the for what communication maye we deuise more honest and profitable or for better recreation then to common of oure fayth religioÌ„ and of the goodnes mercie of God toward vs. Natha There is no doubte and therfore I praye the begyn to enter into the matter Phy. The better to reduce al thinge by ordre recite firste the Crede to the ende that wyth freshe memorye we maye well considre that whyche it doeth conteyne in generall and after we shal expound it by particulers Nathanaell I beleue in God the father almyghtye maker of heauen and earth And in Iesu Christ hys onely sonne our Lord
StephaÌ„ which did expouÌ„de this place to the Iewes did shew theÌ„ how it did agre beloÌ„ge to Iesu Christ Iesu christ him selfe in the sinagog of Nazareth shewed bi workes bi wordes by the testimonie of the Prophet Esai howe that he was anoynted wyth the holye Gooste to open preache the Luke iiii Esai i. Math. xi gospell vnto the pore deliueraunce vnto the prisoners and the yere of grace Natha It is then good reason to attribute vnto hym the office of a prophete seynge he is not onelye a prophet but a prynce of the prophetes Phy. There is yet wel other causes He hath The differeÌ„ce betwen christ and the prophetes not onelye exercised the office of predication as Moyses and the other prophetes but hath consummate all prophecie fulfylled al that the prophetes had before spokeÌ„ therfore saied he that the lawe and the prophetes dyd laste vnto the commynge of Iohn baptiste and that more is he hathe not onelye opened and Math. xi pronounced vnto men the lawe and wyll of god as the other prophetes but hath Imprinted it in the hertes and gyuen the holy Goste Ieremi xxxi Hebre. viiii Iohn xiiii xv xvi Math. iii. and bi the same the vertue and efficatie both to vnderstande and to perfourme wythout the which the ministratioÌ„ or misterie of al the other caÌ„ be but the dead letter Nata And what profit cometh vnto me to know thys Phy. Fyrst thou arte assured of the wyll of God and knowest which is the assured certayne doctrine of saluatioÌ„ vnto the whiche thou oughteste to holde the and after thou mayst learne by this what thou oughtest to iudg of al doctrine howe thou maist oughtest to reiecte the traditions of men For if Iesus Christ be the true prophete the whych onely the father wil to be herde it doeth folowe then that he hath Deut. xviii Math xvii taughte vs all that is necessarie vnto saluation and that we haue no neade of anye other doctrine but of hys and that we neade not to loke nor abyde for any other prophecie nor reuelation but that whyche by hym vnto vs is reueyled opened but ought to hold Iudge all other doctrines beynge contrarie to be deuellishe doctrines Natha Seynge it is so it doeth seme vnto me that we maye well conclude that they be not true christianes nor do not beleue that Iesus Christe is that greate and soueraygue true prophete whyche do saye that he nor hys Apostles haue not spoken taught that whych is necessarie for the doctrine of the church but that we muste haue recourse vnto councelles tradions and humayne doctrines Phy. There is nothynge more certayne and I am verye glade that thou vnderstandeste the matter so well for suche people denye Iesus to be Christe seynge they robbe or take from hym the offices for the whiche he is called Christe though with theyr mouthes they confesse hym to be Christe and euen as they do hym iniuey in takynge from him hys propheticall office euen so do they vnto hym as towchynge hys kyngdome hys priesthode whyche be the other two offices whych be also coÌ„prised signified in the name of Christe Natha In asmuche then as we haue spoken of the fyrste let vs come vnto the other what sayest thou of hys kyngdome Phy. That it is not carnal â—or of this worlde Christes kingdome Iohn xviii as he did wytnes before Pilate that is to saye a caducte traâ—nsitorie and mortall ministerie after the maner of terrenall kyngdomes as the Iewes 〈◊〉 for and thought but spirituall eternall and immortall as the Angell declarynâ—e hys conception hadde before sayed wherefore he administreth â—aygneth and gouerneth by hys holy spirite and the cepter of Luke i. hys worde Natha Wee muste not then vnderstande to raygne here in thys lowe earth in voluptuousnes and carnal trihumphâ—s as the Iewes dyd vnderstande seynge that the kyngdome of Christe is spiritual Phy. It is conueniente and necessarie that the citizens and subiectes of thys kyngdome be as the kynge fightinge with a spiritual armonie against the flesh the Iohn xvi world synne death SathaÌ„ hel â—he which he alreadye hathe vayuquished ouercome Nathana Wherfore is it that by the vnction hys kyngedome and hys propheticall and Aâ—â—â—â—tynge of Christe priestlye office be Signified Phylype For to declare that he is the true kynge prophete and the Soueraygne sacrifice maker whyche was figured by the kynges and prophetes of Israell and by the sacrificers of the Leuites whyche hath perfourmed and accommpleshed that whyche they neuer could do Nata What was that whych they coulde not do Phy. The kynges beynge mortall and synners as wel as theyr subiectes coulde not deliuer theyr people from the tyranye and violence of synne Death Sathan and hell nor lykewyse the priestes by all theyr sacrificies as Iesus onelie hath done by hys and by his vertue and power Natha Our Lorde Iesus Christe hath he bene anoynted as the kinges prophetes and aunciente Sacrificers as Dauid by Samnell and Aaron and hys chyldreÌ„ by Moâ—ses Phy. Those were anointed with oyle mynglyd wyth diuers precious odours swete thinges for to declare that it was thei which God had elected ordemed vnto that office but Iesus was anointed wyth the holie gost which was figured by the same vnctioÌ„ as doth appeare by Esai the testimonie of S. Iohn for he hathe the spirite wythout measure Natha If Iesus christ be god as I Esai lx i. Iohn iii. do beleue it how hath he giueÌ„ vnto him the holy gost seing that he doeth promise and gyue it to other Phylype Accordynge to hys diuine nature he doeth not receyue it for it is in hys almyghty power but in asmuch as he hathe bene made man he hathe receyued thys vnction to the ende that in him we myght be all partakers of that vnction for the whyche The name of Christians we be called christians Natha It is not theÌ„ bicause of the creme that is giuen vnto vs in oure baptisme that we be called christians or for the oyle that the prestes do brynge vnto the sycke in their extreme vnction Phy. The christiaÌ„s do know neither creme nor Iewishe oyntmente materiall and corruptible for theyr saluation but that only of the holye Goste of the whyche we muste all by Iesus Christe be anoynted and baptised as Saynt Iohn doeth wytnes Nathana Seynge we be partakers of the vnction of Christe of the whych we beare the name we Math. iii. be then kynges prophetes and offerers of sacrifices as he is Phy. So doeth Saynte Peter call vs and geueth that honoure vnto all true christians I Petre. ii woulde if it were Goddes wyll that we vnderstode well all that whyche is signified by the name whyche we beare the whych in Antioche was gyuen vnto the disciples of Iesus Act. xiii Christ Nata In what maner be we kings what is oure
kyngdome seynge we be so pore and miserable Phylype We be kynges in asmuch as we be fre by Iesu Christ the which hath made vs fre deliuered vs from al our enemies the whych he hath made subiecte vn Iohn viii to vs and hath made vs Lordes of the heauen and earth for to raygne wyth hym receiuing vs as hys brethren into the communioÌ„ of his Ephe. i. inheritaunce and of hys kyngdome Natha Howe hath he made all subiecte vnto vs seynge we be yet subiecte vnto synne and haue so muche vnhappynes and haue yet so manye enemies that we can not enioye that whych God hath gyuen vs. Phy. Notwithstandynge that synne and the deuell do make vs war that it doeth vnto vs that we haue neede of many thynges yet neuertheles ther is nothynge neyther in heauen nor in earth that may anoye or damne vs nor there is nothynge whyche shall not be subiecte vnto vs to serue vnto oure saluation and be turned to oure benifite for all thynges be ours and we be Christes and Christe is Goddes and all thynges happen and be turned to the profitte of the elected Natha I vnderstand now this point expounde vnto me nowe howe we be prophetes and priestes Phy. In asmuche as he hath geuen vnto vs hys holy spirite for to leade vs into the know How christiaÌ„ men be prophetes Iohn xiiii xiâ— xvi ledge of all trueth and hath opened vnto vs by the same the wyl of God his father there is no doubte but we be all prophetes that the leste of the fayethfull may not speake and open more clearelye and hyghlye the misteries of Iesus Christe and declare more largly his death resurrectioÌ„ theÌ„ the greatest prophet which was before his comming in the whych is well fulfilled accomplished that whyche Ioel. ii Act. ii S. Peter alledgeth of Ioel sayinge I shal shede forthe my spirite vpon you and your sonnes and daughters shal prophecie but yet not wythstandynge that all be prophetes as conceruynge the knowledge of God yet neuertheles it doeth not followe that it is or shoulde be laweful to al or euery man to take the office of a prophet in the churche and christian assembles but onely for them whych be called of God and chosen and elected by his churche vnto that office for to opeÌ„ and declare hys worde and minister hys sacramentes albeit that it is euerye one of oure offices to do the office of a prephet in our houses towards oure families and also our neighboures wheÌ„ occasion is gyuen vnto vs but that muste be so done and in such sorte that the ordre which God hath put in hys churche be not violated nor conuerted or coÌ„founded Natha There resteth now no more but of our priesthod Phy. We be priestes and true sacrificers in Christian priesthod Rom. xii asmuche as by the spirite of Iesus Christ we offre oure bodies hertes soules vnto God as a quicke liuely holy spiritual and acceptable sacrifice wyth all that we haue to serue vnto hys honour and glory Natha By that thou haste expounded vnto me of the kyngdome of Iesus Christe of hys propheticall office and sacerdorall dignitie I vnderstande not onelye what prophet kyng and prieste he hath bene and what is the vertue and excellentie of hys sacrifice but also howe that al hys offices and titles doeth apperteyne vnto vs and yet neuertheles there abideth in me a certayne scrupulositie Philip. Towchyuge what Nathana Towchyngethe sacrifice of Iesus Christe for thou doest saye that by hys sacrifice he hath fulfilled that whyche all the Leuites coulde neuer do and if it so be that the sacrifice of Iesus Christe onely be perfecte we muste then haue non other but holde our selues vnto the same Phy. EueÌ„ so ought we to vnderstand it Nata Haue the christiaÌ„s theÌ„ no mo sacrifices Phy. Not materiall and visible but onelye those of the whyche we haue spoken and the sacrifices of prayses whyche be the prayers of the fayethfull and the almes of the faieth full whyche be the offerynges aâ—ceptable vnto God and all good workes done vnto his prayse but for the redemption of soules remission of sinnes there is none but that of Iesus Christe Nathanaell Then they whyche offer and synge for the redemption of the soules as well of lyuyng as of the deade and whyche doo offre for the redemption and remissioÌ„ of theyr synnes be no christ â—â—us nor do not beleue Iesus to be Christe thoughe they confesse hym wyth the mouthe Phy. They be christians as the Iewes whyche dyd persecute Rom. ii ix Christe be true Israelites and chyldreÌ„ of Abraham by name onelye for if Iesus be that Christe he is the true sacrificator if he be the true sacrificator whyche saueth the synners it muste needes be that hys sacrifice be perfecte for otherwyse he shoulde nothynge differ frome the sacrificatours of the Leuites whyche were synners nor yet hys sacrifice frome the calues shepe and rammes offered in the olde testament so should he not be the Christ Natha It semeth vnto me that which thou sayest is not out of reason Phy. By this we maye well Iudge that the greateste parte of christians do not vnderstaÌ„d what is signified by the name whyche they beare nor yet what they coÌ„fesse wheÌ„ they saye they beleue in Iesus christe for if they vnderstode that they should be deliuered from manie errours superstitions Idolatries and blasphemies which they coÌ„mit nor they shoulde not dispend somuche monye to cause masses to be song for the deade nor should not make so greate expences aboute the outwarde and material sacrifices nor shoulde not be in such dissention as they be for the masse and for the ceremonies and traditions of men Nathanaell Wherefore sayest thou that Phylype Bycause they shoulde be all conteÌ„ted with the sacrifice of Iesus Christe and of the saluation whyche they haue receyued by hym and shoulde offre vnto the poore that wepe that whych they offre vnto the priestes that synge and vnto the quicke and liuely Images of God that whyche they offre vnto dombe and deade Idols and shoulde succure the lyuynge wyth the goodes they spende aboute the dead Nathanaell Howe vnderstandeste thou that Phy. Thou wylte not denye me but that the Hebr. ix i. sacrifice of Iesus Christe is perfecte seynge saynt Paule doeth wytnes it Nathana God forbyde Phy. If it be perfecte it is then sufficiente we must make no mo nor take awai nor put to anye other wyth hym for God hath no neade of anye humaine healpe neadeth not that man should put to his hande after him in that which he hath fully made and coÌ„sumate Natha I do confesse it Phy. And if thou wouldest not confesse that that of Iesus Christe were perfecte and sufficiente for to gyue place vnto them whyche be made by men I wyll reproue by the same all the other sacrificies that euer myght be made for whych of theÌ„ myght we
to considre in what signification the holye scripture doeth vse it Natha That is that whych I do aske Phy. We do fynde hel in the vsage of the holye Gene. xliiii Esai xxiiii scriptures and principally in the old testament for the death for the graue and for the state and condition of them that be departed of the which al the scripture doth beare wytnes therfor do we cal it hel which is a word takē of latin doth signifie as much as a low inferior place bicause we do put the bodie in the graue within the earth lower thē our habitatiō Natha Is that the propre significatiō Phyly That is the fyrste that it doeth signifie in the scriptures Nata Is there thē other Phy. Yea but they do hange vpon the same For as the death and the graue is the ende cōsummation of man as concernynge thys worlde euen so hell is taken for the extreme daungers miseries dolors anguishes that man may suffer and by the which he is darkned or brought vnto death Nathanael Vnderstādeste thou none other thynge by hell Phylype It is also likewise takē sūtime for the paine dew for sinne for the Iudgemente and wrathe of God and for the bottome and mischiefe of all euyll thynges of all miseries and vnhappines and bycause 〈◊〉 xvi Math. xvi that in the death and in the graue there is no thynge but stynkynge infection darknes and perpetuall horror it is somtyme taken for to siguifie the state cōdicion and the place of the damned otherwyse called Gehenue bycause that theyr death is not vnto lyfe that they Luke xvi Marc. v do abyde in the same in perpetuall darkenes of the whyche the graue is theyr beginnyng Natha Accordynge to whyche of these significations ought we to vnderstāde that Iesus Christe is descended into hell Phy. Accordynge vnto all Natha Howe so Phy. Fyrste thou muste note that he doth not saye in the singuler numbre He is discended into hell as thoughe he dyd speake of a place certayne wherunto he was goone But in the plurell He is descended to the helles comprehendynge all that which he had sayed before He hath suffred vndre ponce Pilate crucified dead and buried Natha And did it not suffice to haue already sayed the same by other wordes for if discendyd into hels doeth signifie no further what nede was it to put to this article Phy. Albeit that it do comprehende al that whyche alreadye hath bene sayed yet is it not put to without cause for it doeth better open and declare that whiche hath bene sayed doeth also better declare vnto vs the vertue and efficatie of the death and passiō of our Lord Iesus Christ doeth gyue vs to vnderstād what condemnation he hath borne how farre the vertue of hys death hath extēded Natha Expounde the same alitle better vnto me by particulers Phi. When oure Lord Iesus Christe had suffered and endured so many outrages blasphemies as when he dyd sweate bloude and was ful of anguish in his Luke xxii Math. xvi soule euen vnto the death and was shamfullie hāged betwene theues as forsakē of God of al creaturs without helpe fauour or cōsolatiō and dyd yelde vp his spirite vpon the tree of the crosse where he was hanged bearing the curse Ire and furore of God which is the verye hell felynge in hym selfe the condempnation paines and sorowes which we had deserued for oure synnes then was he truly descended into hels whych had wened to haue deuoured him but they coulde not bicause he was wythout sinne Nathana Is he no otherwise discended into hel Phy. He was also discended whē he was put Ephe. iiii into the sepulchre is discended into the lowe partes of the earth as the Apostle doth saye Nathana Dyd not hys soule and hys spirite discend to the sayntes fathers whych were dead before hys commynge Phylyp Yes Natha Where were they Phy. In the bosom of Abraham Natha What place was that Phy. The place of reste and blessednes wher all they were receyned whiche were deade in that fayeth of Abraham whiche is the fayeth in oure Lorde Iesus Christe Natha Is that limbo wher they be depriued of all the Ioyes of Paradise Phy. I haue not reade in any place in all the holye scripture that maketh mention of anye such limbo Natha was it thē in purgatorie Phy. Iesus Christ descended wel into purgatorie when he dyd humble caste down hym selfe euen vnto the mooste bitter death of the crosse sheadynge hys precious bloude for to washe purge our synnes for the same dyd obteine remission and grace other purgatory doeth not the scripture knowe but that same whyche hath efficatie in vs by fayth whyche purifieth the hertes Natha Howe is he then descended to the fathers and where was the bosome of Abraham Phy. I haue sayed that hell signifieth also the estate and cōditiō of thē that be dead departed wherfore when Iesus Christe was deade and buried he was discēded to them that be dead and departed that is to saye that he is dead for them and hathe borne the paine that they hadde merited and deserued after suche sorte that the vertue force and efficatie of the deathe of Iesus is extended not onelye vnto them whyche were alyue but also vnto al thē whyche haue bene sēce Adam and were dead Gene. iii. in the fayeth of that promised seede vnto the whyche Iesus Christ hath bene made felow dyeinge as they and descendynge into the graue as they to the ende that they should be partakers of the resurrection and glorye of hym whyche is sauiour of the liuyng dead Nath. It seameth by thy wordes that thou doeste abolyshe boeth limbo and purgatorie Phy. God furbide that I should aboleish purgatorie for it is the same in the whych I haue all my hope wythout the whych I shoulde wholli dispaire of my saluatiō for I do know well that no poluted and vncleane thynge cā Cor. xv entre into the kyngdome of heauen except it be purged made cleane but in dede I know no other purgatorie but the bloude of Iesus The true purgatorie Christe nor yet ani fyre whiche hath power vertue to pourge our sinnes but that of hys holie spirite as for limbo I could neuer find anie in al the holie scripture I could neuer see so mani diuers estates of thē that be departed as the priests mōkes fain lodging some in paradice other in hell other in purgatorie other in limbo I do not find in the holi scriptur but of ii estates cōdicions the whiche oure Lorde Iesus Christ hath represēted and sette forthe vnto vs in the exemple of the Ryche man and Lazarus there is but one estate of the happie and blessed and another of the reproued Natha Vnto whych of those dyd Iesus Christe descende Phyly Vnto boeth but in diuers sorties he is discended to the
loued me that he hath not spared hys owne propre sonne but hathe gyuen Iohn iii. Rom. viii hym for me and vnto that same good Sauioure likewise whych hadde so feruent a loue and charitie towardes me that he woulde not refuse the death nor to gyue hys lyfe for me poore misirable synner albeit that I was his enemye as towchynge my parte and vnworthy to behold the sunne and go vpoÌ„ the earth Na. Without doubte this coÌ„sideratioÌ„ oughte well to enflame vs in the loue of that good god of the same our sauiour Iesus Christ Phylyp For this cause hath he instituted his The institutioÌ„ of â—he supper Math. xxvi i. Cor. x. xi holye ceane or supper to the ende that the remembraunce of thys greate benifite shoulde ofâ—en be hadde and refreshede amonge vs thereby the better imprinted in oure hertes and to make vs the better to feele the vertue and efficatie to growe in fayeth charitie and all good worckes and so to holde and keepe vs in the office of true christians for by these visible sygnes of the whyche the signification is declared vs by his word by his holye spirite of the which sacrameÌ„tes do take theyâ— efficatye the liuelye Image of hys death and passion is cepresented vnto vs. And therefore The memory of Christe to be celebrate in the supper when thys breade dedicated vnto the Sacramente representeth vnto me the bodye of Iesus deliuered vnto death for me and the wâ—â—â— the bloude whyche hath bene shede to washe my sinnes I do codsiâ—re howe Iesus Christe hath bene bounde ledde vnto Pilate Iudged condempned and deliuered into the haudes of the hangemen crucified dead and buried and after rysen from the deade and ascended into heaueÌ„ this may â— not onlie coÌ„sidre as a cloude or as a simple historie or as the legeÌ„de lyfe or death of some martire or some holye sainte but I muste coÌ„sidre that Iesus beynge bound for me as a stroÌ„g SaÌ„soÌ„ hath brokeÌ„ the boÌ„des of death daÌ„pnatioÌ„ hathe vnbounde me with him selfe WheÌ„ I coÌ„sidre him before the iudg here the seÌ„teÌ„ce giueÌ„ against him I do theÌ„ here mine own absolutioÌ„ deliueranc for he was led before the Iudg I of him coÌ„demned again deliuered into the haÌ„ds of the executioners to the end that I should not be codemned at the IudgmeÌ„t of God deliâ—â—red into the handes of he deuylles and sente into euerlasting fyre but that I mighte pleade for me hys ryghtuousnes so to winne my cause fynde fauoure before the great eternal Iudg and that I may saye with the apostle Whoe Rom. viii shal lay accusation agaynst the electe of god for God is he that Iustifieth and Iesu christe is oure leader aduocate and intercessour goo we then vnto the throne of grace and we shal Timo. ii i. Iohn ii Hebr. ii iiii fynde fauoure and saluation in tyme conueniente Natha I do find thys maner of remeÌ„braunce of the death and passion of oure Lorde Iesus Christe muche better and more consolation in it then in that whyche the monkes do teache vs in preachynge the passion on good friday for they preache it vs after suche sorte that we Monkish meditaâ—ioâ— of the passion of Christe learne nothynge but to despise and be angrie wyth Iudas and the Iewes and do not considre that it is we oure selues whych be the Iudas and the Iewes whyche by ours synnes haue so outragiouslye intreated hym against whom we ought not to be angrie And further they shew vnto vs Images and crucifixes for to learn vs to wepe as the pore women did weepe whiche folowed him wheÌ„ Luke xxiii he was ledde to be crucified after suche sorte as we weepe for an euyll doer or some other good man which were innoceÌ„tly put to death where as we ought rather to wepe ouer and for oure selues and for oure owne chyldrene and so to lamente langoure and sighe for our owne fautes and synnes so farre as I can conceyue or vnderstande by thy wordes there is a greate difference betwen the death of Iesus Christ and that of the martyrs for that of the martyrs can not serue vs for any satisfaction and redemption for oure synnes as that Difference betwene the suffering of martyrs Christ of Iesus Christe but onely for an example of fayth strengthe and conscience but that of Iesus Christe doeth serue vs for boeth Phy. It is verye well vnderstande of the and thou couldest haue saied no better I would to God that euerye one dyd vnderstande it so well as thou and then the Sophisters should not haue Ioyned the death and sufferynge of the martyres wyth that of Iesus Christe for to make it meritorious vnto saluation and remission of synnes for vs as though that of Iesus Christe were not sufficitiente and but lytle dyfference froÌ„ that of the martires They woulde not also haue corrupted the sence of the wordes of Saynt Paul for to recompeÌ„ce by the tribulation and sufferynge of sayntes Colo. i. that whyche seameth vnto them to wante in that of Iesus Christe nor woulde not haue forged the workes of superogatioÌ„ and of superaboundaunce and theyr treasure of the church into the whyche they gather togyther all the merites of sayntes and make them selues distributers of them by theyr kepes and by the applyinge of theyr ceremonies sacrificies bulles pardons as thoughe there were other meritte then that of Iesus Christe and other maner to appli it then by the preaching of hys Gospel and administration of hys sacramentes to receiue and communicate theÌ„ by the true lyuelye fayeth the whiche onlye is receyuable of theÌ„ And further if al did vnderstand this matter well not onely the monkes shoulde learne otherwyse to preache the passion but the priestes also should be content to represent them vnto vs by the preachynge of his worde and the true vsage of hys sacramentes The true representatioÌ„ of the passion they woulde holde them selues vnto the ordinaunce of hys holy Ceane woulde vnloode them selues of so manye folish vayn and chyldishe ceremonies whyche they haue in theyr masse by the whyche they wyl represente them vnto vs as one should plai a Iuglyng caste or as it were a playe of litle chyldrene They take a kerchiefe in stead of a crown of throns they haue theyr maniple theyr stole a gyrdle of a corde in steade of the cordes bondes and crosse whyche Iesus Christ dyd beare they haue theyr albe and greate shurte in stead of hys gown that Herode gaue him And to be short it doeth seme perfectelye that they wylbe disguised for to playe or daunce a bet-morres or to make litle childreÌ„ ferd were it not much better to be coÌ„teÌ„t wyth the simple ordinaunce of Iesu Christ to hold theÌ„ vnto that holye ceane that he hath instituted as Saynt Paule hathe sette it forthe vnto the Corinthians and as the Apostles and the primatyue
churche did and to remembre and haue in cōtēplation the death and passiō of Iesus christ in oure hertes and to reste oure selues in the fruite consolation that it bryngeth vnto vs then to playe suche castes and to disguyse thē selues in suche sorte before the simple people and to seeke to draw them onely into the admiration and extollynge of outwarde ceremonies and so to drawe them altogyther frō the true and healthfull contemplation of the death and passion of Iesus Christe and to depryue theym of the fruite the whyche they oughte to receyue by the same For when I do remembre Iesus Christ vpon the crosse I doo see hym wyth the eyes of my fayeth gyue vp the spirite I do see hym putte into the Sepulchre rysen and ascended into heauen What neede haue I then of suche illusions and paynted conueyaunce for to drawe me from thys holy and profounde consideration for my fayeth doeth make Iesus Christe present vnto me euē as though he were payned and crucified euē before my owne eyes I doeth sette hym forthe before me as a stronge Samson whyche breaketh the gattes of hys enemyes and beareth them vpon hys shoulders and doeth kyll and distroye more in diyng thē in lyuyng I do see howe Iesu Christ beyng crucified doeth crucifie the Deuyl beynge nayled doeth nayle sheading hys bloud i. Cor. xv Math. xxvii Iohn xiiii Roma v taketh awaye the bonde of death whyche he had agaynst vs in dying kylleth death sinne and brouseth and treadeth down the head of the olde serpente he openeth the Sepulchres and gyueth lyfe vnto the dead when he entereth into the Sepulchre and descendeth into helles as we haue sayed he entereth into the house of death into the strengthe of the armed man and of the prynce of thys worlde doeth dispoyle breake downe all theyr force strēgth and power Nathanael If hys death be so stroung what oughte then to be hys resurrection and lyfe Phylype I leaue that to thy selfe to considre and therefore when I do see hym rysen I do Colo. ii The fruit of the resurrection ascentiō se my fleshe rysen wyth hys I do see hym as victoriouse leadynge synne the worlde death hell and Sathan in shewe and triumphe all ouercome and caste downe in suche sorte that they haue no more powre vpon all the elected whyche beleue in hym then they haue hadde vpon Iesus Christ Whē I see hym ascended into heauen and am certayne that he is sette vpon the ryghte hande of God and that he doth raygne wyth the father eternally This fayeth also doeth brynge assuraunce and certifieth me that when he is goone vp he hathe borne and lyfte vp my fleshe and my bodye hath opened me the waye vnto the celestial glorye and that he beynge oure heade hath taken possession for vs. Natha Then hys resurrection and hys assention be vnto vs certaine testimonies seales confirmation of ours Phy. There is nothynge more certayne and we oughte no lesse to be assured that we shall aryse and raygne wyth hym then that we be of hym for in asmuche as he hathe taken oure fleshe euen as it in hym hathe suffered hath borne the Iudgmente and maledicion of god and is deade euen so it is rysen in hym and exalted into the glory of God aboue al the heauenes therfore he is called the fyrst fruit of thē that slepe fyrst borne of the dead not bicause he is fyrst risē amōg mē for other were risen before hym that is to saye they whych were raysed as well by hym as by the prophetes but bycause that thys is the fyrst and he onelye whyche is rysen by hys owne deuine vertue and power and is the beginning originall and fountayne of the resurrection lyfe of all the other whyche dye and ryse in hym and by hym and the better to confyrme and seale thys hope in oure hertes he hath giuen vs a gage and hathe takē of vs to the end he woulde not leaue vs in doubte he hathe taken Iesus hath taken pledge of vs hath left vs of hys Ephe. i. Roma viii Iohn i. i. Petre. i oure fleshe the whyche he hath borne into heauen by the whyche we be alreadye put into possession and be sette in the celestial places wyth hym and of the other parte he hath gyuen vs hys holye spirite to confyrme and seale the promises in oure hertes which doeth testifie vnto oure spirite that wee be the chyldrē of God Seinge thē that we be the childrē of God and haue hys diuine seede in vs wee oughte not to doubte but that Iesus Christe hathe made vs partakers of his diuine nature euen as he woulde communicate vnto ours and woulde be made manne for to make vs Goddes that is to say Godly holy spirituall Then euen as the wheate whych is sowen in the earth dieth in the same doth sprout Iohn xii Cor. xv sprynge and take roote and after cometh out groweth and bringeth forth good fruite euen so lykewyse shall we be assured that when we dye be putte into the earth we be sowen shal take agayne aryse immortall incorruptible in as much as we beare wyth vs the sproute or springe of the spirite of God which can not dye though the flesh be corrupte but shall deliuer thys bodye frō corruptiō whych shal be raised vp by the vertue of him whych hathe raysed vp Iesus Christe from the dead and shall vinifie and rayse vp oure mortall membres Nathan Here is a goodlye exercise of fayeth and a goodlye practise of christian doctrine of the whyche we oughte not onelye to be learners and doctours in contemplation but also good practicians for to bryng it in dayly vre Phy. There is yet an other poynte whych is no lesse worthye to be noted that is when we beleue that Iesus rayneth in heauen sette vpon the ryght hand of God that doeth assure Consolation agaynst al tētations gyue vs a merueylouse consolation against all tentations and daungers for it is no smal thynge to haue in the celestiall courte and before the face of that greate eternall God such a frende as Iesus Christe whyche is verye God verye man whyche also hathe power in heauen and is inheritour of the kyngdome of God for we can not doubte in asmuche as he alwayes appeareth before the face of God but he is intercessoure for vs and is oure mediatoure and aduocate leader conductoure and gubernatoure wherefore wee haue none occasion to be aferde of anye thynge in heauē or in earth if we firmely and assuredlye trust in hym For in asmuche as he is verye God we can in no wyse doubte but that he hathe al power asmuche as he is one substāce power with the father we ought not to doubt but that al that the father hath is hys and for as muche as he hath bene obedient euen vnto the death of the crosse and that he is hys welbeloued
sparkled thorowe al the worlde there is no creature nor liuynge man that can be the heade seynge there is not that can be in all places where she is nor that can gyue hyr ayde and assistence suche as to hyr is requisite but the onelye Iesus Christe the whyche by hys diuine power and by hys holye spirite fulfilleth the heauen and the earth and is present vnto all hys elected the whiche he doeth leade conducte gouerne and vinifie whyche non other can or maye do wherefore what so euer he be that wyll make hym selfe heade of thys churche whereof he oughte to be but a membre he is neyther heade nor mēbre but doeth make hym selfe a mēbre of Antichriste and hathe chosen Satan for his head in asmuche as he setteth him selfe in the place of Iesus Christe settyng vp hym selfe aboue hym not knowledgynge him for his head vnto whom boeth Angelles and men oughte to be subiectes for S. Paul shewyng the fruites of the resurrection and ascention of Iesus Ephe. i. iiii Colo. i. ii Christe wryteth howe that God hath exalted and set hym vp aboue all heauens and aboue all the thrones powers Lordeshyppes and dominions and hathe gyuen hym to be heade of hys churche Natha I vnderstande wel what thou wouldeste saye I shall holde me then vnto hym and wyll neuer acknoweledge other head of that triumphant churche but shall holde for hys ministers the true ministers and pastours of his churche and the other whyche wyll attribute vnto them selues that dignitie for verye Antichristes But lette vs come nowe vnto that thou haste promised me and declare vnto me what example we maye take of all the historie of oure lorde Iesus Christ Phy. That were very longe to be recounted and tolde for ther is nothynge so litle whiche cōteineth not greate sacramēts misterie but I wyll onelye sette forth the thynge vnto the in two wordes by the which thou maist iudg of al the reste The historie of our lord Iesus Christe serueth vs for an example in two maners and fyrste howe we oughte to confirme How the historie of Iesu christ serueth for exemple oure selues vnto hym as concernynge oure regeneration and spirituall lyfe whyche is hidden in him the other howe we oughte to confirme oure selues vnto hym in oure outwarde lyuynge cōuersatiō Natha The more thou wouldeste make the thynges shorte the more they seme darke vnto me wherfore I pray the thynke not muche nor spare me nother tyme nor wordes but expounde me the thynges so largly that I may haue cleare vnderstandynge of them and tell me the fyrste poynte what vnderstandeste thou by the spirituall lyfe of the whych the historie of Iesus Christ serueth vs for an example Phylype I vnderstande that all the lyfe of Iesus Christe oughte fyrste to serue vs as an allegorye by the whyche we oughte spirituallye to yelde oure selues to be conformable vnto Iesus Christe in that whyche verelye riallye hathe bene accomplished in hys bodie the which can not be in ours Natha Thou speakest not much clearlier thē thou dydeste therefore declare vnto me that whych thou wouldeste say by exemple Phy. I am contente Iesus Christe hath beene conceiued by the holy Gost borne of the virgyn Marye he hath bene crucified dead buried is rysen agayne and gone vp into heauē all whyche thynges can not be accomplished in oure bodies as they haue bene in hys But lette vs take payne that oure spirite maye in the same be conformable vnto hym oure bodies be conceyued and borne in synne and iniquitie not of the holy Goste in the wombe of a vyrgin but of corruptible seede and then for to be conformable vnto hym in thys lette vs nowe come vnto hys church beleue in hys Gospell and in the same whyche is oure mother and a virgin pure and chast we shal be conceyued and begotten by the incorruptible seede of the word of God our father and by Spiritual cōceptiō birth Gala. iiii i. Petre. ii Iohn xxxi Ephe. iiii the vertue of hys holye spirite shal be borne agayne chyldrene of God and shall be newe creatures and put of the olde manne and put on the newe bearynge the Image of the newe Adam whyche is Iesus Christe as wee haue borne that of the olde and of the synfull man Natha Beholde for thys is a holye conception and happye byrth Phy. Then in asmuche as we be all ready so conceyued of the holye Goste and borne of that pure virgin the churche whyche is the spouse of Iesus it muste followe also that the Eph. v. reste of oure lyfe be conformable vnto that of Iesus Christe accordynge to our spirituall conception natiuitie and byrthe We be not crucified nor put vnto death as he was but learne we of him to beare our crosse To be crucified with christ wyth him to be crucified vnto the worlde the worlde vnto vs as saynte Paule doeth write of hym selfe Nathana And howe can we be crucified vnto the worlde and the worlde vnto vs Phylyp When we dye vnto the world likewise dieth the world vnto vs. Na. These maner of speakynges To die to the worlde be verye darke Phy. They be darke vnto them whyche be not acquaynted or accustomed wyth the maner of speaking of the Apostles But I do vse ◠wyllynglye boeth to accustome the and bycause I do take pleasure in the stile of the spirite of God and of his Apostles To be crucified and dead vnto the worlde that is to be crucified dead vnto sinne and that is to forsake Rom. vi synne to haue no more acquayntaunce wyth hym and to do him no more seruice thē the dead do vnto the lyuynge for as the dead haue nothynge in commune wyth the liuinge but be seperated the one frome the other and haue no more acquayntaunce togyther euen so be they deade vnto the world which haue forsaken it to serue God and wyl no more be conformable vnto it that is to saye vnto the fleshe nor vnto hys concupiscences so is it impossible but they whiche be thus dead vnto the worlde liue vnto God and the worlde To liue vnto the worlde lykewise dead vnto them by the contrarye they whyche lyue vnto the worlde and vnto whom the worlde lyueth be dead vnto God as the Apostle doeth wryte of the voluptuous wydowe sayinge the wydowe whyche i Timo. ii doeth lyue in lustes pleasures in so lyuyng is dead and bicause that she lyueth vnto the worlde she is dead vnto God so then when we dye vnto the worlde we ryse vnto God and do practise in oure selues the exemple of the death and passiō of Iesus Christ spiritually whē we mortify our earthlye mēbres offer our bodies as lyuyng sacrifices vnto god Roma xii Colo. iii. and do kil by the swerd of the worde and do burne vp by the fyre of his spirite oure cōcupiscence carnall affectiōs lustes whiche be
hys bodye I do followe my heade beyng assured that as I suffre wyth hym shall I also Rom. viii be glorified wyth hym I do gyue hym thankes of the greate grace that he hath gyueÌ„ me that is to saye by hys goodnes he hath kepte me froÌ„ fallinge into anye crime for the whych men myght haue anie iust occasion to hate or persecute me but hath so ledde me by his holye spirite that the euyle caÌ„ fynd in me nother coloure nor reasone to afflicte me except onelie bicause I desire and offre my selfe to be an honest maÌ„ to folow trueth ryghtuousnes the whiche thinge cometh not of my selfe but of God the whyche hath so kept me wythout the ayde of whome I should be the moste miserable and greatest sinner of the world Natha Certaynely the consideration of this is no smal coÌ„solation Phy. There is yet other thynges to folowe for I conâ—idre that howe innocent or irreprehensible so euer I be or can be before menne yet neuertheles I can not be before God but a greate offender and culpable of eternal damnatioÌ„ if he would entre into iudgmente wyth Psalm Cxlii. me and punishe me in hys rigour wherefore I doo thynke that thoughe I haue not deserued the euil â—hat I do suffre by suche occasion for whyche menne do persecute me I am not yet for al that so innocente before God but I haue deserued that and muche more before God and therfore I do receiue that as at the hande of God as Dauid dyd suffre the outragies ii Reg. xvi of Semeâ— and haue pittie and compassion of myne owne enemies considerynge that they are my brethren not knowing what they doe and do more anoyaunce and hurt to them selues then to me and therfore am I moued to pray vnto God for them that he wyll pardone them theyr faultes for they can not hurte me but in my bodye but they hurte and sleâ— theyr owne soules and if I se my carnall brother in the hand of the hangeman leading hym to the gollowes howe euill or vntrue â—o euer he were or what displeasure he myghte or should haue done me yet shall I haue pitie and compassion of hym and should bye hym froÌ„ the gallowes it I might and deliuer hym from the handes of the hangman haue I not then much greater occasion to haue pitie and compassion of my pore blynde and ignorante brethern the whyche I do see by theyr infidelitie and synnes to be in the handes of the Deuil whych is the greate hangeman of hel for to lead them vnto eternal dampnation ought we not well here to followe the example of Iesus Christe whyche is come to saue not Luke ix to lose and to aske of God pardon for them and further when I do considre that which I do suffre and do compare it wyth the afflictions and tormentes of Iesus Christe that I do knowe the difference betwene my tribulations and hys I shall be ashamed greatlye of mine impatience or to missaye them which do me iniurie when I do remembre the praier that Iesus Christ made vpoÌ„ the crosse for his enemies but shall rather be moued to pray to Act. vii God for theÌ„ as S. Stephan did And further when I do considre the innocencie of Iesus Christe and the multitude of synnes whyche be in my self and in what numbre God doth pardon theim euerye daye I shall haue good occasion to pardon my brethern of a small offence or iniurye done vnto me seyng that my celestial father doth pardon me myne offeÌ„ces beynge so greate and manye in numbre and wythout hauynge deserued anye suche forgyuenes Natha We shew oure selues verye vnthaÌ„kful and ingrate if that when other haue forgyueÌ„ vnto vs a myllion of crownes we wyll nor can fynde in oure hertes to forgyue oure detters one halfpenye and surely I do fynde these considerations whyche thou haste resited verye fruitful and do perceiue and know euerye daye more in hearynge of the speake the greate consolation and Godlye doctrine and fruite that we may receyue and beare of thys crede if we considre and examine it near lye as thou doeste at all tymes that thou resueste it Phy. Lykewyse muste I do in al the tribulations and sykenes that may come vnto Remedies aâ—â—ynste al 〈◊〉 to me for if I haue payne in my heade I shall call to remembrauÌ„ce the crowne of thrones whyche dyd perce the braynes of Iesu Christ and the tre of the crosse whyche he hadde for hys boulster wher as I haue my head wrapped and bound in softe and swete kerchiues and my heade layed vpoÌ„ a sufâ—e pelowe Or it I do fele my bodye werye and ouer for traueled and all myne other membres so weake that with great pame I may turne me frome one side to an other yet shal I perceiue mi self much better intreated theÌ„ Iesu Christ my sauioure remembryng hym spred vpon the tre hangynge vpon the crosse hauynge hys handes and fete nayled and myght not stirre nor remoue anye membre yea and that after that he had bene all the nyght and almost all the daye scrached beaten whypped hys bodye all to broken and almoste shed all hys blond where as I am layed in a good softe bedde tenderlye intreated and haue seruauntes and healpe to take me vp laye me downe and to conforte and to gyue me all thynges that I aske or that caÌ„ be deuised to be good for me Natha Alas that we can not thynke of thys for if we could we should be muche more pacient in al our sikenes aduersities theÌ„ we be Phylipe Yea and we should not be so muche nor so sone moued when we heare anye euyll or outragragious wordes spoken against vs for that our good sauiour hath suffered much greater yea euen in the same houre that he was most oppressed with tormeÌ„ts for he was left forsakeÌ„ of al creatures without hauing any maner of ayd confort or coÌ„solatioÌ„ no not so much as an euil doer that is lead to execution for he herde none other thynge but iniuries outragies and blasphemies agaynste hym selfe the whyche dyd no lesse perâ—e hys herte then the thornes nailes did pearâ—e hys head Esai liii hys hades and hys fete yet for al that came there neuer out of hys mouth one euile word but was alwayes meeke as a lambe that is in the handes of the sherer or bocher wherefore if I do see my selfe forsaken of all menne and of all my speciall frendes yet shall I recomfort my selfe in Iesus Christe seyng that I am not yet in suche extremitie as he was knowynge also that I am not forsakeÌ„ of god but that he is alwayes wyth me as he was wyth hys sonne Iesus Christ notwythstandynge it dyd seme that he was altogyther vtterly forsaken of hym the whych he would in dede feele in hym selfe to the ende that we shoulde not feele it in oure selues but should receiue coÌ„solation by hym
do promisse them heauen But what maner of proceading is thys for whan the conscience doeth feele it selfe loden wyth the burthen of hys sinnes the eyes open and seeth hym selfe personally before the iudgment of God whyche can receiue nothynge but that whych is iuste perfecte what consolation maye the conscience receyue of hys worckes the whyche at that tyme she shall knowe to be al vnperfecte and be nothynge but synne and vnworthye to be presēted before the maiestie of God what terrour and feare ought she to haue when she seeth that horryble mouthe of hell wyde open readye to swalowe hyr except she haue other ayde and succoures then of hyr selfe yea and if she haue not truste and confidence that she is deliuered and saued not by hyr owne rightuousnes but by that of Iesus Christe or if she be so blynded that she haue some truste of hyr workes and leaue vpon the same and not the promises of God and the grace in Iesus Christe what maye come of hyr but fall into the depe pytte of hell seyng the forsaketh Iesus Christe and hys satisfaction toward god whyche can not be ioyned or haue anye place wyth oure satisfaction whyche of it selfe is nothynge Natha There be which doe comfort them of a better sorte shewynge them the miseries of thys presente lyfe and howe that death is vnto them the ende of al euiles and an entrie vnto reste and the begynnynge of felicite Phylype That same semeth to haue some coloure and to be mete to bringe consolation but the phylosophers haue done s◠muche theyr bokes doe conteigne no lesse but there muste be an other consolation for to appease the conscience pressed wyth the iudgmente of God the whych is not found but in the christian doctrine and in the death and resurrectiō of Iesus christ for valiantly to entre into the battell of death boldly to present hym selfe before the iudgmente of God there is no better waye or meane then for to dispayre of hys own vertue power to put hys onlye trust hope in Iesus Christe to condemne hym selfe and all hys workes to iudge thē worthye of eternall death dampnation and to present him selfe before God in the onlye cōfidēce that he hath in Iesus Christe beyng assured of hys saluation by the onelye fauoure grace and mercie of the same Nata I beleue well that thys is the beste of all other that there is none other for trulye thou haste opened vnto me a goodly shope full of all maner of medicines againste al maner of sikenesses aduersities boeth of soule and bodie in the which I am determined to fetch all the medicines whych shal be necessarie for my saluation Phy. It there cam a poticarie or phisitian which would promise medicines and remedies for to heale all sikenesses and for to kepe a mā alwaies in health ther is none but would runne to hym yea and bestowe al hys gooddes to bye that health howe poore so euer he were what desyre oughte wee then to haue and to runne vnto Iesus Christe whiche is the soueraigne true medicine which healeth not onelye the bodyes but also the soules from al infirmities sikenesses and doth not onelye keepe theim in healthe durynge thys mortall lyfe but that more is it doeth keepe theim frome euer diynge and maketh menne immortall and to lyue eternallie which none Iohn iii. vi other medicine can do And that wee myghte the better loue hys medicines and that he myghte the better insite vs the better to come vnto hym he doeth Esai i. ii lv gyue the vnto vs frely without demaūdinge other golde or syluer and therefore we be verye miserable to forsake hym for to haue recourse vnto the popes priestes and monkes whyche so dearlye sell theyr medicines vnto vs the whyche can in nowise profit vs but rather venim and poysen our soules and consciences Natha I intende neuer frome hence forthe to haue recourse to other but to hym and to the ende I maye the better knowe hym I praye the let vs come vnto the article folowinge the whyche alreadye hathe bene expounded for by that thou haste taught me thys daye thou haste inough opened the vnderstandynge for to learne me to knowe how I ought to practise all the christian doctrine and howe to vse it to my profitte Phy. I wyll also doe that whyche thou desireste but to kepe the ordre wee haue begon holdē hitherto we may of thys mattier make here a stoppe and so go forwarde wyth that that foloweth as we haue done before And we haue also commoned lōge mongh for one Nathanaell I shall alwayes agre to all that thou wylte ⧠In thys dialogue shall be spoken of the second comminge of Iesus Christe of the nature of hys gloriouse bodye of hys laste iudgmente Phylype VVe haue all readie treated largly of the historie and misterie of oure redemption and that whyche doeth concerne the fyrste commynge of oure Lord Iesus Christ in the fleshe the causes of the same what he hath done for vs and the fruites we oughte to abyde and loke for There resteth now to speake of hys secōdcōmynge in the whyche he shall appeare not in humilitie and infirmitie as he dyd at the fyrste but in glorye and maiestie not for to open and pronounce the grace and mercye of God vnto sinners as he hath done before but for to glorifie wyth hym selfe them whyche receyued hys grace and mercie in the tyme that he presēted and offered it vnto them and for to condemne iudge them whych woulde not knoweledge hym for theyr sauiour And for to reenter into the matter resite that which foloweth Natha There foloweth after that whych we haue sayed That he is set vpon the ryghte hande of God and from thense shall come to The second commynge of Christe iudge the quike and the deade I do fyrste demaunde of the if the bodye of Iesus Christe glorified be in some certrine place or whether it be in diuers places or in al places Phy. It ought to suffice vs to knowe beleue that whyche we haue al readye sayed of hys ascention and of hys seate vpon the ryghte hande of God I denye not but Iesus Christ is in al places by his diuinitie and by his holie How Christ is in al places spirite in asmuche as he is God but in asmuche as he is trulie man hys bodie can not be a true and verie bodie without occupiyng some place To be in al places as hys diuinitie is it can not be of hys nature for nothyng can be ouer all but God wherfore if hys bodye were ouer all and in all places it shoulde folowe necessarilie that it shoulde be God If it weare God it shoulde then not be a bodye but a spirite and Iesus Christe should not be verie God and verye man but God onelye and the body which he did take in the wombe of the virgyn
should be a newe God whiche had some beginnynge the whyche is a thinge repugnaunt vnto the nature of God Natha But mai not God do what so euer he wyll in asmuche as the diuinitie of Iesus Christe can not be seperated from hys humanitie is not hys bodye in all places wher his diuinitie is Phy. Nothinge is impossible vnto God and albeit he may do al yet neuertheles his power is aswayes conioyned wyth hys wisdome and vseth it not disordinatly but alwayes in suche sorte that hys worckes be not confused but that hys creature abideth alwayes a creature gyuing him suche propreties as he will and yet foloweth it not that the diuinitie and humanitie of oure Lorde Iesus Christe be so inseperable that hys humanitie fulfilleth the heauen and the earth as hys diuinitie doeth for my body and my spirite be conioyned togyther and yet it foloweth not therefore that my bodye shoulde be in all places where my spirite maye be for my spirite maye be rauished euen vp into heauen and yet my bodye neuertheles shal be in the earth or and if thou loueste better the cōparison of Saynt Austen God dwelleth in vs by hys holy spirite and yet neuertheles we be not in all places and enerye where where God is albeit he dwelleth in Iesus Christe otherwyse then in vs but thys ioyninge togither or comunction of two natures doeth not take from the natures theyr propreties Natha But is there no difference betwen the bodies glorified and the mortall and corruptible bodies Phy. Yes verye greate and I denye not but The glorious body of chirst that the gloriousse bodie of Iesus Christe is now farre other then it was before his death and resurrectiō yet hathe he not for all that chaūged his body but hath alwaies kept the same he had before hathe not chaunged his substaūce except that he hath put of the qualities of imperfectiōs miseres which he toke for vs is immortal glorious or otherwise he shoulde not be trulie rysen nor we shoulde not call the resurrection resurrection excepte that same propre bodie and that same propre flesh whych is fallen by death were rysen vp agayne nor shoulde not receyue lyfe by the same so myght it be rather called mutation or chaunging thē resurrectiō thē to dispute subtellye curiouslye of the properties of the bodye glorified of the place where the bodye of Iesus Christe is shoulde be a thynge not onelye vnseamynge but also vnworthye of the simplicitie and of the euangelicall doctriue we ought to contēt our selues to knowe Luke xxiiii Iohn xxi that Iesus Christe is in the celestiall glorye and that he hath a verie true body such as he shewed it vnto hys disciples hauyng fleshe bones and that it is not chaunged into spirite but doeth holde alwayes the properties of a verye true bodye suche as appertayneth vnto a verye and true glorified bodye whyche not wythstādynge it hath put of al humaine infirmities yet followeth it not for all that that it is in al places nor in diuers or manye places al at one tyme instante We oughte to beleue that he is in heauen sette vpon the ryghte hande of God hys father where as Act. vii saynte Stephan dyd see hym For to dispute and diffine what is thys heauen that ryght hande of God is here no neade but is more sure to putte it of and leaue oure disputation vnto the tyme we came there and maye se it by experience and that we maye vse suche diligence to folowe Iesus Christe in the tyme we be in thys lyfe that we may come thether and beholde hym Natha And if it be thus as thou sayest howe can we make it agree wyth that whyche the priestes make vs beleue that the body of Iesu Christ is in the hoste betwene theyr handes The corporal presence or in the pixkes euen as greate and large as he was vpō the crosse Phy. They whyche beleue that beleue not that he is sette vpon the ryghte hand of God And shall come frō thense to iudge the quicke and the dead Natha Wherefore not Maye he not as well come downe and goe vp by the vertue of the sacramentall wordes as he is goue vp Phy. To what purpose or what neade is it that he should come downe descend or ascende seing he fulfilled all by hys vertue and power If it were neadful that hys bodie should be presented vnto vs carnallye wherefore is not he taried wyth vs or wherefore is he not returned to be cōuersaunte as he was before with hys disciples wherefore did he saye vnto his disciples It is expediente for yo◠that I depart for excepte I depart that conforter shall not come If the corporal presēce he Iesu christ dyd wyth holde the hertes of the Apostles here in this lowe earth and dyd hyndre them to knowe hym spirituallye howe shoulde he haue wylled vs to sette oure spirites to seeke hym in almorsell of breade in the handes of a synner or in a pixce or boxe hathe he not sayed he woulde be prayed vnto of them whiche shoulde honoure and seeke hym in spirite and in trueth and that suche be the true honorers and howe shall wee honoure hym in spirite trueth if we goe aboute to seeke and honoure hym in visible and corruptible thynges and Ihon. iiii in houses made wyth the handes of menne and to muse vpon a morsell of breade or vpō a pyxe or boxe howe maye thys agree wyth that whyche Saynte Paule commaundeth vs sayinge If ye be rysen agayne wyth Iesus Christe seeke not the thynges whyche be Colo. iii. on the earth but those that be aboue wher Iesus Christe is vpon the ryght hande of God the father or wherefore do the priestes synge in theyr masses Sursum corda haue your hertes on hye and wherfore do the other answer We haue thē to God Why wyll they rote them here in thys lowe earth and holde them in the Imagination of corporall and carnall presence rather then to learne them to know Iesus Christe spirituallye makynge theim to fele the fruite of hys bitter death passiō For thys cause hath he instituted hys holye Institucion of the supper supper not for to make vs seke a corporal presence but for to represent hym self vnto vs by these visible sygnes for to learne vs by the same to go vp into heauen to hym for he wyl not that we drawe hym from heauen by wordes as coniurars and enchaunters but will drawe vs vnto hym self by hys holy spiritte and wylleth that oure hertes be lyfted by vnto hym and that we there be traunslated and traunsported by hys vertue to receiue repast nouryshmente of hys fleshe of hys bloud wherefore it is no neade that he shoulde descend or go vp for if he myght not communicate hys fleshe and hys bloude vnto vs other wyse then by hys corporall and carnall presence and wythout descendynge
corporallye frome heauen the vertue and power of hym selfe and of hys holye spirite were not great and shoulde not haue so muche power as the sunne the which without coÌ„ming down from heaueÌ„ doth veri wel coÌ„municate his light and heate to meÌ„ wherfore may not theÌ„ Iesu christ coÌ„municate him selfe to oure spitites soules bodies by the vertu of his spirite coÌ„ioyne vnite vs wyth him selfe as the meÌ„bres wyth their head We haue not theÌ„ ani caus to make a god of the bodie of Iesus or a moÌ„struousse bodie which shold fulfil al places or to gyue hym manye bodyes as we muste neades be coÌ„strained to do if we will folow the doctrin of the priestes seynge that they wyll that all in one hours one selfe minute momente and instante he shoulde be in so manye places all at a time it is much more sure to holde our selues vnto the testimonie of the Angels whiche haue testified vnto hys disciples the daye of hys ascention that as they sawe hym goe vp visiblye so shoulde he be seene descend whych Act. i. he him self also before had affirmed Sayinge that he should come as a lyght whych should be seene from the Oriente vnto the occidente Math. xxiiii wherefore he doeth declare that he shall not come inuisible and that there where hys bodye shall be there shall be hys elected Natha These wordes be vnderstand of hys The sacrameÌ„tal commyng of Christe corporall commynge vnto the iudgement but there is an other whiche is sacramental Phy. I deny not but Iesu Christ cometh eueri day vnto vs and is in the middeste amonge vs wyth vs vnto the ende of thys worlde presente vnto vs but that is by his diuine vertue and by hys power and hys holye spirite but of commynge and presence corporall and carnall the scripture promiseth vs no other theÌ„ that whyche shall be at the laste daye I deny not but he is present vnto vs by hys worde by hys sacramentes but that is in the maner that I haue alreadye shewed Natha Thou wylt then saye that he descendeth not corporallye vnto the laste daye Phy It is the scripture that so sayeth and not I. Nathana Howe shall he come then and in what fourme Phy. He shall come accompanied wyth Angelles wyth the cloudes in the Math xxv glory of God his father in the propre fourme that he ascended Natha Wherefore shall he come then in hys propre bodye then visiblie rather then nowe Phy. Bycause that then shal be the tyme that he muste make accompte and make them pertakers of hys glorye and immortalitie whych haue suffered wyth hym and beleued in hym and shall make them the fote stole of hys feâ—e whyche haue resisted hym to the ende they may feele hym theyr iugde and Lord in theyr greate confusion in the daye of the ire of god in asmuche as they woulde not knowe hym nor receiue hym for theyr sauioure in the time of grace and mercie Natha Wherfore sayest thou the quicke and i. Cor. xv i. Tessa iiii the dead shal there be then some lyuynge Phy. Accordynge to the sayinge of Saynte Paule it is manifeste that there shall be then when he shall come the whyche neuertheles shal be chaunged and hydden sodaynlye and shall mete Iesus Christe in the ayre Natha And shall they come before theÌ„ that be dead Phy. No. For fyrste the trumpet shall blowe and the dead shal aryse and then all togyther shal be found in a momeÌ„te wyth the Lorde Natha And shall not the same dye Phylyp Saynte Paul calleth not that chaunge death because it shal be more shorte and sodayne theÌ„ the twynkelynge of an eye but neuertheles they shall be all togyther chaunged euen as they whyche shall haue slepte in the pouder of the earth and shall put of mortalitie for to put on immortalitie Natha Thou vnderstandest then by the lyuynge the deade them whyche at that time shal be lyuyng and them whyche before that time shal be dead Phy. I saye that the article maye verye well be so vnderstande and that the doctrine of S Paule is conformable vnto the same vnderstandynge but we maye also well vnderstaÌ„d it otherwyse wythout contradiction of the scripture Natha Declare it vnto me Phy. We may take thys copulation for one vniuersall signifiynge as muche as thoughe we would say he shal come to iudg the quicke and the dead that is to saye al humayne creatures for the same two wordes doeth comprehende all sortes of people or he shall come to iudge the quike whyche yet at thys presente tyme be alyue whyche shall dye neuertheles at theyr tyme and the dead that is to saye all them whyche haue bene before vs whyche is as muche as thoughe he shoulde saye all them whyche haue bene be shal be of what estate or condicion so euer they be Nathanaell Declare vnto me yet in how manye maner of wayes I maye vse these thyngs vnto my profit Phylype In verye manye but I shall touche one or two of the pryncipal Thys iudgment of God oughte to learne and admonishe vs to walke in thys same mortall pilgrimage in simplicitie of herte and to putte a sure brydle vpon oure carnall concupiscences and to redresse and refourme oure selues to the ryghte waye of the wyll of God beyng assured that we must make accompt that not vnto a mortall manne as we be but vnto hym that knoweth not onelye all oure worckes but also al our wordes and thoughtes knowynge that Math. xii Math. i. there is nothynge so secrete but at that tyme it shall be discouered before God before hys Angelles and before all menne that euer shal haue bene vpon the earth We ought then to be verye ware to doe any thynge in secrete whyche wee woulde not do openlye but we oughte to walke in thys lyfe as thoughe wee sawe God alwayes before oure eyes And after the abydynge and lokynge for this Iudgemente oughte to wythdrawe oure selues frome doynge anye wronge or iniurye vnto anye persone and oughte well to keepe oure selues frome goynge out of the ryghte waye of trueth other for anye prayse or for anye disprayses or for sclaunders or for the good or euyll wyll of menne nother yet for anye profitte or dammage that myghte come vnto vs nother for prosperitie nor aduersitie that myghte come for we are certaine that then shall be holden the greate and laste appellation and all causes shall be broughte forthe and iudged but not accordynge to the iudgement of men but accordynge to the iust iudgmente of God by the whyche euery one shal receiue praise or shame vituperie accordynge as he shall haue deserued Natha Thys article as thou expoundeste it ought to brynge greate consolation vnto all the true fayethful whyche suffer persecution in thys worlde knowynge that at that tyme theyr sorrowe shall be turned into ioye and theyr shame into glorye and of the contrarie it oughte to gyue greate feare
myghtye wynde when he gaue hys holye spirite vnto hys Apostles Phylyp There is no doubte but he dyd it to The holye spirite sheweâ— in wynde signifie that as the winde suffereth the Rociers the litle and small trees and ouerthroweth by the rootes breaketh down broseth and maketh ruinous the greate myghtye trees So the vertue of thys holy spirite is to bring consolation to the hertes aflicted to purge the consciences to iudge the euile to ouerthrowe and sette downe the proude and to vpholde beare vp the weake and humble Natha If we wyll then haue anye thynge of God we muste obteygne it by Iesus Christe workynge in vs by hys holie spirite Phylip. It is euen so for by hym all the beleuers be vnite in one self body with their head Iesus Christe and be nourished and vinified in hym as by the soule and spirite all the meÌ„bres whyche be in one bodye be partakers of the goodnes which is in the same body Natha I beleue for that cause we put to by by after thys article the which appertayneth nyghe vnto the churche the whych is the bodye of Iesus Christ of the whyche thou speakeste of vinifiynge sanctifiynge by the same holy Gooste for we do saye by and by after the catholyke churche Phy. There is no doubte Natha In asmuch theÌ„ as we haue treated the other three partes The church of the crede that we be come to the fourth whyche concerneth the churche daughter of the celestiall father spouse of Iesus Christe tell me fyrste what thou callest the church Phy. Churche signifieth congregation and assemble Eph. v but I do take it and vnderstaÌ„d it here for the asseÌ„ble of the true and faythful christians whyche be vnite coÌ„ioyned by one selfe spirite and one selfe fayeth Natha Is there anye other church then the churche of the faithfull Phy. As we do cal the bodye and membres of Iesu Christe the churche so hath Antichriste hys body and membres whyche togyther make the malignaunt churche but for asmuche as that toucheth vs in nothynge we leaue it aparte and speake only here of the tru The malygnant church church of Iesu Christe therfore do we cal it holy Natha For what cause Phy. To put difference betwene hyr and the church of Antichriste and for asmuche as she is sanctified by the holye Goste for to be the temple and habitatioÌ„ of God Natha Wher fore doest thou also call it catholike what signifieth that worde catholyke Catholike Phy. It doeth signifie vniuersal and therfore do I saye I beleue the vniuersall churche bycause the churche doeth signifie all assembles and congregation where the fayethfull be assembled as is the church of Choâ—hi of Rome Galathiens and othere lyke I wyll declare that there is one catholyke churche that is to saye vniuersall and generall comprehending all the other the whyche is generallye sowen thorowe all the worlde onelye knowen of the onelye God whiche knoweth the hertes Natha If she be sowen thorowe all the world how is she a church seing that church signifieth coÌ„gregatioÌ„ asseÌ„ble so as thou sayeste it should seeme rather to disperation seperation and confution Phylype Therefore muste we considre thys The churche inuisible churche spirituallye and muste not thynke it to be a visible and local assemble sette and limited in a certaine place Nathana Howe vnderstandest thou thys or howe can the churche be inuisible seyng it is the assemble of the fayethful whyche be visible menne Phy. I denye not but that the men whyche be of the churche be visible but thys ioynynge togyther of the churche oughte not to be considered of the coniunction of the bodies but of the hertes spirits that be inuisible which none cause and therefore notwythstandinge I see the menne that be of thys churche wheÌ„ they be presente wyth me yet neuertheles I The churche mingeled thorowe all the worlde can not see them all because they be sparkeled abrode thorowe all the worlde and thoughe they myght be assembled all in one place yet coulde I not knowe them perfectlye because that the elected shal neuer be so wel seperated in thys worlde frome the infidels and reproued but there shall be alwayes manye hypocrites mingled amonge them the whyche we can not wel deserue nor iudge vnto such time as Iesus Christe shall make seperation of the Math. xxv goâ—es from the lambes and of the wheate froÌ„ the tares therfore do I saye that thys church is inuisible because the eye caÌ„ not se it nor the humayne iudgmeÌ„t wel deserue it therfore do we saye we beleue it for if we did se it at our eye wee beleued not but notwythstandynge we can not se it at our eye yet we beleue that the Lorde hathe hys elected whyche notwithstandynge they be sparkeled aboute thorowe all the worlde as touchynge theyr bodies be yet neuertheles so ioyned togither by the spirite of God that they be but one selfe bodye one selfe herte and one selfe soule Act. ii iiii Natha Thou wylt then saye that the vniuersall churche is a spirituall and inuisible asseÌ„ble of all the elected and chyldrene of God whyche be vpon the earth in what place so euer they be whyche notwythstandinge they be seperated and farre distaunte one frome a nother as concerninge theyr bodyes yet they be all vnite by one selfe spirite into one body misticall of the whyche Christe is the head Col. i. ii whyche dyed for to assemble the chyldrene of God that were sparkeled but if thys church be inuisible howe canste thou saye thou beleueste in hyr and that thou holdeste hyr fayth howe canste thou knowe what she is what she beleueth if thou know hir not Phylype I saye not that I beleue in hyr Natha Doeste not thou confesse I beleue in the holye Gost the holye vniuersal churche Phy. I do saye and confesse openlye I beleue in God the father and in Iesu Christ and in the holye Gooste but of the churche I do not saye I beleue in the holye churche but I beleue the holye churche Nathana Is it not all one what difference is there Phy. Verye greate For if I sayed I beleue in the holye church I should coÌ„fesse that I put my trust in hyr as I haue sayed before to beleue in God and the churche is not god but is an asseÌ„ble of men cursed is man that trusteth in man wherfore if I sayed I beleue Iere. xvii in hyr I should speake agaynste my self and should reuerse the fayeth which I haue coÌ„fessed hytherto Nathana Declare vnto me the differeÌ„ce Phi. By expositioÌ„s going befor it is opeÌ„ inough what seÌ„ce mi words should haue if I sayed I beleue in the church But when I do saye I beleue the holie churche that is to saye I beleue and confesse that ther is an assemble by the whyche I haue diffined the churche and that in the same I wyll lyue and dye Natha Howe wylt
thou lyue and dye in hyr when thou knowest not where she is Phy. Although I can not perceiue nor know al that be coÌ„prised in it yet neuertheles I haue certayne sygnes by the whyche I know am assured what she is Nathanaell What be those sygnes Phy. In all places coÌ„panies Syngnes to knowe the church by â— where as the worde of God is purelye opened receyued the sacrameÌ„tes of Iesu Christ obserued and kept I am certaine that there is of the shepe of Iesus Christe of the elected or otherwyse hys voyce should not be opened nor yet receyued Natha Thou wylt then saye that the worde of god the sacrameÌ„tes of Iesu Christ be indubitable signes of the same but manie speak of Iesus Christe and make semblant to heare hys worde whych be hypocrites beleue not in hym as Iudas was and suche â—yke And coÌ„trariewyse there be many vnknoweÌ„ which be estemed vnhappy damned yet haue faith shall atteyne to the kyngdome of heauen be fore them that shewe greate apparant as Iesus Christe dyd saye the harlottes publicaÌ„s Math. xxii shoulde obteigne it before the scribes phariseis Phy. Therefore haue I sayed that thys churche is inuisible vnknowen vnto me not bicause we se not with the bodily eyes the meÌ„ whyche be of it but because that man can not se the hertes nor can not deserue nor knowe whether the man that he seeth beleueth or no Ephe. ii how holie soeuer he seme nor none caÌ„ know it but the onlie God which gyueth the fayth knoweth the herte that receyueth it Nathan Thou art then ofteÌ„ begiled thinking that the church is wher the gospel is preached the in stitutioÌ„ of Iesus obserued seing that they that be ther do such thyngs may be such as Iudas Act. i. v. viii SimoÌ„ magus Ananias Saphira weâ— Phylip. Albeit that suche hypocrites maye be mingled in greate numbre amonge the faithful which be alwayes the lytle flocke yet neuertheles it is certayne that amonge them be some of Christes shepe for els God woulde not permit nor suffer that the preciouse pearles and margarites of hys holye Gospell shoulde be caste before dogges swine only Natha What if the wolues swine and dogs call theim selues shepe and in stede of the gospell sette forthe theyr owne dreames and humayne traditious howe causte thou knowe deserue the churche â— Cor. xii Phy. The Lorde hathe lefte vs hys holye scriptures for to iudge and deserue by the analogie of the fayeth and the rule of charitie whether the spirites be of God or not whether the spirit in the which I beleue do raigne the whyche is gyuen vnto the elected for to iudge all thynges for the spirituall man iudgeth all thynges and is iudged of no man Thâ— roman churche Natha And is not the romayne churche that holie catholyke church which thou beleueste and must be folowed Phy. If the romayne churche do abyde and perseuer in the apostolyke doctrine I wyl reknowledge hyr a churche of Iesus Christ inasmuche as she declareth hir selfe to be the spouse of Iesus Christe in obeying vnto him as vnto hyr heade and for to lyue vndre hys lawes and ordinaunces but yet maye I not take it for thys vniuersal church of the which we haue spoken for she can be but a meÌ„bre of that churche no more then other congregations and other christian churches that be abrode in the uniuersall world seperated both in places and bodies and yet ioyned in spirite and soule makynge all togyther one vniuersall churche Nathan But is not the Romayne church the heade of all the other vnto the whyche all the other oughte to obeye as subiectes Phy. If she be head she is no more theÌ„ nother spouse nor membre of hys body suche as the faythfull ought to be if she wyll haue dominion gyue lawes vnto other she is no more a churche of Iesus but is the churche of Antechriste whyche attributeth vnto hyr self the office appertayninge vnto Christe for the office of the churche is not to gyue lawes vnto hyr but receiue them of hym and to make hyr selfe subiecte vndre the same Natha The churche then whych wyll exarcise power ouer the other gyue theim other lawes then the Gospell of Iesu is no churche of Christe bycause hys spirite reygneth not ther but to what purpose serueth it to beleue the vniuersal churche Phy. Without that article al the reste goyng before shoulde serue me for nothyng For all that we haue sayed of God that we beleue of the father of the sonne and of the holye Goste hath regarde vnto thys churche without the whyche all oure faith should be vaine for in this crede we do not considre what god is in hym selfe but what he is towardes vs whyche be hys churche and by what meanes he hath willed hyr to be deliuered conserued ruled gouerned wherefore al that we haue treated here before pretendeth to thys end for we muste nedes haue layed thys fundatioÌ„ to buylde after thereupon thys edifice wythout the whythe the fundation shoulde profitte vs in nothynge if we were not surelye builded there vpon Nathana I vnderstande well that thou haste sayed of the vniuersall churche but I desyre yet much to knowe what thou vnderstandest by the communion of sayntes Phy. I vnderstande here no other thyng but that whyche I haue alreadye sayed that is to saye the holye vniuersall churche but this we put to the better to declare the vnite that is amoÌ„ge the faithful for as in one towne in one coÌ„mon wealth in one coÌ„munaltie coÌ„munioÌ„ amoÌ„ge the inhabitauÌ„ces citizens membres that be within it so likewise in the churche of Iesu christ ther is one vnite aliauÌ„ce burgelie brotherhede whyche after such sort conioyneth the bodie with hys head Iesus Christe all the membres the one wyth the other that they haue no goods that is not coÌ„mune amoÌ„g theÌ„ nor that the one doth not coÌ„municate vnto the other for Iesu Christ coÌ„municateth al his goodes to his membres al the goodes that he doth coÌ„municate to his churche returneth or coÌ„meth to euerie one of his meÌ„bres in perticuler euerye one receyueth his parte as the meÌ„bres the which the head doth coÌ„municate vnto them as the soule whyche is shed thorowe all the bodye giueth life vnto all the meÌ„bres of the same Nath. It is then no small benifite to be in the churche of Iesus Christe-nor no smal euil to be out of that churche Phy. It is with theÌ„ that be without as wyth the braunche that is cut of the vine or as the bowgh or twigge cut of the tre the which froÌ„ theÌ„se forth can haue nother nourishmente nor life but must neades drie away is good for nothing but to be cast in the fyre Na. They which be excommunicate be they out of thys coÌ„munioÌ„ Phylip. The word of
all that satisfied the churche whyche was offendyd by hym for notwythstandynge he hathe bene punishede in hys bodye or by hys purse or by boeth yet doeth it not for al that folow that he is an honest manne for in that he hathe bene punished hathe bene agaynste hys wyll and the payne that he hathe suffered hathe not for all that chaunged hys hert except the Lord with hys holye spirite haue touched hym therefore as the churche leueth vnto the punishmeÌ„t of the magistrate such as by him be punishable to be punished wyth such punishmente as they haue deserued wythout medelynge hyr selfe wyth the temporall swerde euen so ought the temporall magistrate not onely to suffer the church to procede in hyr office after he hath done hys but also to healpe hyr in the execution of hyr office if nead require as and if ther be any rebellioÌ„ against the same which requireth more greuouse punishment theÌ„ she maye gyue or put in execution for what other thynge is the ecclesiasticall councell or senate but a membre or parte of the magistrate and of them whyche partly be ordeyned by hym sauyng ther is an other maner of proceading for suche as haue bene moued to repentaunce but rather hardened by the punishmeÌ„te of the temporal swerde whych shal be conuerted by that whych shal be opened vnto theim of the worde of God for God hathe not coÌ„stituted the ministration of hys Gospel in his church wythout gyuynge hyr vertue and efficatie by hys holye spirite by the whych he doth strike the soules more lyuely theÌ„ the material swerd stryketh the bodye and further when a man hathe made suche amendes as he hathe bene ioyned vnto by the lawe theÌ„ is the ciuilitie of the lawe satisfied whyche forceth not muche wyth what herte it be done but the church requireth the testimonie of the herte and caÌ„not admitte them into hyr communion whyche be sclaunderous vnto hyr and whyche haue by the workes declared that they be no membres of hyr bodye excepte that fyrste she shall haue sene theyr repentaunce that they shall haue gyuen certayne sygnes and testimonies of the same for it is defended hyr to giue that Math. vii which is holy vnto Dogges and to caste hyr margarittes precious stones before swyne Natha But in asmuch as the churche is constitute of menne howe can she better iudge of the herte then the ciuyle magistrate and further what satisfaction wylte thou haue other theÌ„ that of Iesu Christ for thy self hath sayed that none othere can satisfie vnto the Iustice of God Phyly As towchynge the herte the churche leaueth it vnto the iudgmente of God which only knoweth it but yet neuertheles she hath more care theÌ„ the ciuyle magistrate can not admit nor receyue a manne into hyr coÌ„panie whyche at the leaste wyll not confesse wyth hys mouthe by the whyche he doeth testifie the christen herte that he hathe it may wel be that often tymes the herte doth not agre with the confession of the mouthe and that the coÌ„fession be fayned as it was in Simon Magus Ananias Saphyra but it sufficeth vnto the churche that a man shewe hyr outward testimonie of the herte for she can not iudge whether it be fained hypocriteth or faithful wherefore she can not caste out hym whyche commeth vnto hyr wyth anye testimonie of fayeth for if hys testimonie be fayned she leaueth the iudgmente vnto God whyche shall discouer it in hys time but to receyue any person wythout open testimonie of repeÌ„taunce faieth she caÌ„ not without doynge againste the word of god for wheÌ„ the dogs swine do opeÌ„lie shewe theÌ„ selfe such by theyr workes and be not couered with shepe skines why should she not iudg theÌ„ She hath none excuse nor resonable cause for to receiue theÌ„ seing that god hath giueÌ„ hir the iudgmeÌ„tes of such things that she hath the mean so to do therfor wheÌ„ a maÌ„ declareth hym self manifestlie sclaunderous a rebell vnto the ecclesiasticall correctioÌ„ discipline the last remedi that the church hath is to excoÌ„municate that is to saye to opeÌ„ vnto him that she taketh him not for any meÌ„bre of Christ nor worthi to be in the coÌ„pani of the faithful nor to coÌ„municate the Sacramentes whych Iesus Christ hath gyuen hir vnto the which ought none to be admitted but hir Math. xviii disciples but oughte to be reiected and depriued of them as a publican and a panim or as a Iewe or turke whyche the fayethfull wyll nor receyue into theyr communion but doeth hold him as an Apostata enemy of christiaÌ„ religioÌ„ wheÌ„ he is so reiected froÌ„ the church i. Corin. v. ii Corin. ii i. Timot. i. he is in the handes of Sathan for to afflicte him is seperated froÌ„ Iesu Christ after such sorte that if he do not reknowledge hys faultes amend him selfe and laboure to recoÌ„cyle hym selfe vnto the churche he is vtterly loste and dampned for in as muche as the churche hathe bounde hym he is bounde seynge that Iesus Christe hathe gyuen it that power by the ministration of hys worde by the whiche also he is vnbounde if he reknoweledge hys Math xvi xviii faultes be receyued agayne into the church by penaunce Natha The churche is then verye rigorouse and hathe a power muche moore to be feared then the swerd of the magistrate for it caÌ„ punish but the body but that of the church sleaeth the soules how doth this theÌ„ agre wyth that whyche Iesus Christe hathe sayed that he was not come for to destroye or lose but to saue is the church of anye other nature theÌ„ Luke ix Iesus Christ hir head Phyly No. But the euell do kyll and daâ—ne them selues in reiectynge the blissinge of Iesus Christe whyche is presented and offered vnto hym by his churche therfore the church doeth not dampne hym but onelye declareth vnto hym his daÌ„nation reiecteth him as daÌ„ned not to the intente that he should so be but to the inteÌ„t he should not be but he knowing hys damnation and seynge hym selfe depriued and shytte out of the companye of Iesus Christe of the Angels and of all sayntes and forsaken of all the fayethfull myghte be the more ashamed and confounded and the better feele the iudgemeÌ„te of God vpon hym to the ende that by thys meane he myghte he moued to repentaunce that he should not perishe eternallye for thys same oughte wel to astony hym seyng hym self bound by the churche whych hath suche power by the keyes which Iesus Christe hathe gyuen hyr that whatsoeuer Math. xvi xviii is bound or vnbouÌ„de in the earth by hyr is bouÌ„d or vnbounde in heauen Natha Then is the excommunication rather a medicine and a remedie then a death damnation Phylip. Accordynge as euerye man doeth vse it to hys profit for it is the last remedy of the churche the whyche she doeth vse as a corsey towardes synners that