the Demonstration of the Spirit and of power C. True there is no compare between these But hath your Minister that Demonstration of the Spirit and of Power N. C. Yes sure if ever any man had C. That 's good news for then we shall see that which before we only believed Hath he the gifts of the Holy Gost Can he speak with Tongues and Prophesie and work Miracles and tell us the thoughts of mens hearts N. C. What do you mean C. I mean that which the Apostle Saint Paul meant who had this Demonstration of the Sipirit and of Power which he gave the world to convince them that Jesus was risen from the dead and was made Lord of all whom they were therefore bound to obey N. C. But I mean something else C. Pray tell me what that is Only let me desire you not to use words without the sense belonging to them and to intreat your Minister that he would hereafter forbear to pray to God that he may speak in the Demonstration of the Spirit and of Power for no body now can hope to do it N. C. I mean that he is spiritually enlightned to search the deep things of the Spirit of God which the natural man cannot discern C. I wonder at you that you should not discern the Apostle there speaks of the Holy Ghost i.e. the wonderful Gifts of it in them which â—ssured them of those things that no meer natural Reason could prove I doubt your Minister is not spiritually enlightned because he doth not instruct you better in the Scriptures N. C. Scriptures He never says 〈…〉 but he quotes a place of Scripture for it 〈…〉 Sermons are nothing else whereas you 〈…〉 but Rational Discourses C. I remember I have heard a wise man say that one may talk nothing but Scripture and yeâ— speak never a wise word And I verily believe it for it is not the Word of God when we mistake its sense as you commonly do N. C. Doth yours do any better C. Yes he seems to me to make it his business to let us into the meaning of the holy Book And he backs his Reason not with phrases snatch'd from thence but with such place as manifestly speak the same sense that he doth N. C. I have heard him sometimes endeavouâ— to open the Scripture but methinks he doth not do it in a Spiritual way but onely Rationally C. My good Neighbour consider what yoâ— say Do you think that these two words Spirituaâ— and Rational are opposed the one to the other If they be then Spiritually is as much as Irrationally and absurdly N. C. No pardon me there I do not think those two are opposite but Carnal Reason is opposite to the Spirit C. To speak properly you should say that Carnal Reason is opposite to Spiritual Reason That is a Reason that is guided by Fleshly lusts â—s opposite to that which is guided by the Gospel of Christ Ns. C. I say as I said before it is opposite to the Spirit C. You must either mean as I do or else that it is opposite to the Gospel which is frequently called the Spirit in Scripture But pray tell me how shall we understand the Gospel by our Reason or by something else Ns C. By the Spirit C. What must we have an immediate Revelation to make us understand its sense or must we study and consider and lay things together and so come to know its meaning N. C. Yes we must give our minds to it and then the Spirit enlightens us C. That is it guides us to reason and discourse and judge aright Is not that it you mean N. C. No I mean it shines into our minds with its light C. These are phrases which I would have you explain if you can My Question is this Doth the Spirit shew as any new thing which is not the conclusion of the Reasonings and Discourses in our minds about the Sense of Scripture N. C. I cannot say it doth C. Then you confess that the Scripture is to to be interpreted in a Rational way we not having that which is truly to be called Spiritual in distinction from the other viz. the immediate revelation of the Holy Ghost which the Apostles had N.C. Still I cannot think that this is Spiritual C. That is you are prejudiced or else you phansie every thing that you do not understand to be Spiritual N.C. No not so but the manner of understanding the things of God methinks should be other than you conceive C. Truly if you have any other manner of understanding besides this and have not the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost I conclude you take the sudden and many times pretty suggestions of Imagination to be Illuminations from above N.C. Now you have hit on something that I would have said The Spirit doth often dart things into my mind C. How know you that Do you take every thing that comes into your head you know not how to be an Irradiation from the Holy Ghost N.C. No I dare not say so C. Then you examine it and consider whether it be rational and coherent or no. N.C. Yes C. Then you fall into our way whether you will or no. And whatsoever you think of us we do not deny but God's good Spirit puts good thoughts oft-times in our minds and represents things more clearly to us than we could make them by all our reasonings which is as much as to say that it lets us see the reasonableness and aptness of such a Sense for instance of the Divine Writings as we discerned not before N.C. Well I am glad to hear you speak so much of the Spirit C. You might hear ten times as much if you would but frequent our Assemblies For there we are constantly taught that the very ground and foundation of our Faith in Jesus Christ is the Spirit i.e. the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven upon our Saviour and his Apostles N.C. You mix so much of Reason with what you say that I am afraid you are not in the right C. You should rather conclude the contrary and not believe any thing but what you have a good reason for N.C. Say you so How then shall I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God Can Reason tell me this C. I am sorry to see you so ill instructed If you had continued to hear our Minister he would have made you understand before this time that though our reason could not find out that Truth yet God hath given us the highest reason to believe it And this I told you is the Spirit the Spirit in Christ and in his Apostles N.C. Pray explain your meaning for I understand not these new Notions C. The Holy Ghost I mean descended on our Saviour at his Baptism with a voice from Heaven saying This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased This is one reason we have to believe on him Then he wrought miracles by the power of this
Covenant of saving those Sinners who would obediently believe on his Son For this was more than he was bound to grant and this Believing and Obedience can deserve nothing of him it being a Duty to believe what he reveals to do what he enjoyns and besides he gives us the means of Faith and Helps to well-doing N.C. How can it be Free if we do any thing for it C. I have told you that we cannot do any thing for to deserve it and what we do he inables us to perform it And therefore it is free because when we have done all yet he is no way tied to give us any thing but only upon the account of his own most gracious Promise N.C. You grant then his Promise is from meer Grace C. No body doubts of it that I know of But this Grace is not so fond as to make the Promise to any one that is confident it belongs to him even whilst he remains in a state of Sin Such a Favour God had to Sinners as freely and without any disposition in them to send his Son and his Holy Spirit but unless they become like to his Son they are taught by him not to presume he will give all the Blessings the Gospel promises for they are made only to the faithful N.C. God will make them so C. But according to your Opinions that is a thing which they need not consider when they apply the Promises of Salvation to themselves For you say they must have respect to absolute promises which you know have nothing to do with any Qualification for this Favour In pursuance of which Doctrines you perswade your selves that Assurance of God's Love is not to be grounded upon any Grace wrought in us but only upon the Testimony of the Spirit perswading us that our Persons are beloved and that the Promises are made to us N.C. This is Antinomianism C. May be so and your Ministers may be Antinomians and yet not know it N.C. Call them what you please I am resolved to follow them for I think you will allow them to be the most experimental preachers in the world C. Stil you pester me with Phrases which I doubt you understand no more than I. N.C. Is not the word plain enough C. It is if you mean by an experimental Preacher a man that hath tried himself those ways which he earnestly beseeches others to walk in but then it will not serve your purpose for you cannot deny but we have men that lead as strict and holy lives as any of yours can do N C. I mean one that preaches his own Experiences in the ways of God C You do not well know what you mean For this is either the same that I now told you or else it may signifie no more than one that preaches his own Fancie N. C. Now it is hard to know what you mean C. I mean that tells you stories of God's Withdrawings and Desertings and again of his Shinings in and Sealings c N. C And do you call these Fancies C. Commonly they are no more For I observe well meaning people fall into these melancholick despairing Fits are recovered again into greater Chearfulness and Assurance without any reason at all but only by a fanciful application of some Scripture or other which belongs not at all to their condition and yet casts them down or raises them up N. C. You are mistaken they have Reason C. If there be any that can be thought a sufficient ground of God's withdrawing himself sure it must be some provoking Sin which they have committed And yet I see that they who cannot charge themselvs with any voluntary act of Sin nor with any such Omission neither fall into these fancies so I must still call them of being forsaken by God All the occasion that ever I could find for such black thoughts is but some such thing as this that they have not such Inlargments as they were wont or cannot go to Duty with that delight which formerly they took in it which your Ministers ought to teach them are no Reasons but only melancholick Conceits And if these be the things you call Experiences there are none of us but understand them as well as you finding the same Dulness and Heaviness in our selves Only we are taught not to talk or complain of it but to do our duty notwithstanding as well as we are able and we shall find it will not last alway N. C. You make too light of these things C. I hope not But you lay too great weight upon them and make these such Marks of a Gracious Soul that it helps to put good but weak people into these Humors and I doubt makes them lay hold on all occasions to fancy themselves deserted N. C. Pray speak no more of these matters for I see you are ignorant in them as you are in all the great things of God which are Foolishness to the world Why do you smile They are the Apostle's words 1 Cor. 1.23 C. I know it But I smile to see how you prove that which you deny viz. that Fancy governs you N. C. How do I prove it C. By this application of the Apostle's words according to their Sound and not their Sense N. C. Why what is their Sense think you C. That to a mere Gentile it seemed a foolish thing to believe that a Crucified person was made Christ that is Lord and King of the world The Jews stumbled at this and would not receive him for the Messiah or King of Israel who shamefully hung upon a Cross and the Gentile thought this a ridiculous perswasion which none but Idiots would receive But then he tells you what Gentiles and Jews these were viz. such as were meerly natural and did not allow the testimony of the Spirit whereby the Apostles proved this Doctrine For they who were convinced that the Holy Ghost was in the Apostles and judged not by mere humane Reason but Heavenly testimonies made no scruple to believe that this crucified Jesus was made Lord of all and herein they acknowledged the great Power and Wisdom of God to be made apparent N. C. You give the oddest interpretations of Scripture that ever were heard of C. Every thing seems odd to you which is cross to your Fancy But examine the Scriptures seriously and you will find the interpretations which I have learnt to be plain and even N C I do read them continually C. I believe you and that you apply every thing as you fancy it will fit these times N. C. I apply it as I see those do who notwithstanding all that you have said I take to be the most experimental Preachers For that which they have seen with theer eyes which they have look ed on and which their hands have handled of the word of life that declare they unto us as S. John speaks 1 Ep. 1. 1. Pray be more serious and do not laugh while we speak of these
seem to me to endeavour by these questions to put your selves and the people into a great passion and a kind of agony but they do not spring I persuade my self nor arise of themselves from any ardency of Devotion But there is another thing that offends me more than all this that having stirr'd up some confused passions in your selves by this and other such like means you proceed to such an high degree of confidence in this bold way of Arguing with God that you quite forget who you are speaking to For some have told him that he little knew how his enemies insulted or some such thing and that if he did but know how desirous they were of such a thing or how much they would prize it he would not deny them N. C. Pray Sir hold your peace or I will stop my cars You abuse good men C. I tell you only what is credibly reported and if it be not so I shall be very glad But I must adde that they take such a liberty of saying any thing to God which they would say to one another that I conceive it not unlikely that some might fall into those unseemly others perhaps will call them blasphemous expressions Are not you of the same mind N. C. I cannot deny but that they use great familiarity with God C. Familiarity do you call it would the world had never known it For it is such a one as hath bred in mens minds a contempt of God and Religion It hath taught every body to let that Member loose which ought to be always bridled especially in God's presence They vent all their foolish Opinions to him they tell him News and inform him how things go abroad which they have received many times upon a false report which hath brought such a scandal upon Religion that it cannot but grieve any good man's heart to think on 't N. C. It is such as you that have brought Religion into contempt and not we C. How so I pray you N. C. By despising the Spirit C. It is false We reverence that Spirit which was in the Apostles and if we could see such an one again none would entertain it with greater gladness We acknowledge also the power of the Spirit of God still in the hearts of men especially of those who are good and we bless God continually for it But that which we deny is this That either you or we are able as I told you to pray by the Spirit N. C. Do you not then despise the Spirit C. No we suppose there is no such thing as Prayer by the Spirit if there were we should reverence it N. C. Would you would tell me your meaning C. I mean a prayer immediately dictated by the Holy Ghost as some were in the Apostles day N. C. I understand you not C. Such a prayer in which by the Inspiration of the Holy Ghost a man conceives those things which he speaks to God Or in plainer terms I mean that the Spirit of God doth not now suggest to any of us when we pray the very matter and words which we utter If you pretend to this then those prayers are as much the Word of God as any of David's Psalms or as any part of the Bible and being written from your mouths may become Canonical Scripture N. C. But we do not pretend to this C. I wish then you would not talk as if you did I am sure your discourses of Prayer are commonly such that one would think you took your selves to be full of the Holy Ghost And this I must tell you hath made a great many scorn Religion when they saw the Spirit of God intitled to such pitiful stuff as they heard many vent with the greatest confidence N. C. This is their own fault C. And yours too N. C. I cannot believe that our Prayers ever had any such effect C. But I can and I will tell you how You constantly tell us that the Bishops by prescribing a Form limit and stint the Spirit By which Spirit you mean the Spirit of God not your own From whence it follows that you think or would have the world think that the Spirit of God speaks in you when you pray and that you utter its mind and words Now many men hearing you pray so inconsiderately and wildly uttering most absurd if not impious things yet with a mighty zeal and confidence have been tempted to think that whatsoever is said of the Spirit even in the Apostles days might possibly be no more than such an Extravagance and Fury as this N. C. A most sensless conceit C. I think so too But you have given occasion to such conceits in those that are inclined to Infidelity N. C. I hope not For we onely mean when we say we pray by the Spirit that the Holy Ghost assists us C. With what Doth it furnish you with words N. C. No with devout and ardent affections C. This indeed you should mean but your brags of the Spirit import more N. C. Pray Sir use no such reproachful words we boast of nothing C. Well pardon me that word But if you do not brag yet you say that you can pray by the Spirit and we cannot at least do not In which you ascribe something more to your selves than is to be found among us N. C. Yes C. Then you mean more by praying by the Spirit than being inspir'd with devout Affections For those you cannot deny we may have as well as you and unless you will take upon you to search the heart you must grant we feel them since we protest that we do From whence I conclude whatsoever you say that your men would have you believe that it is the Spirit which speaks in them and by them when they pray Which is a thing that reproaches not only them but the very Spirit of God and as I said before hath at least confirm'd men in their Atheistical or unbelieving inclinations N. C. Well I will not dispute this with you any longer But tell me seriously do you think that men could pray with that readiness and elocution and lenght if they were not mightily assisted by the Spirit of God C. Yes indeed do I. Their own spirits will serve them for this purpose if they be but indued with good phansies and a sufficient measure of boldness For it is a great vertue I assure you in this case not to be modest though we reckon it a singular vertue to be so N. C. I cannot think it possible C. Why Neighbour you may take my word for this There are many of our men could out-do you in this Gift as you call it of Prayer if they would give themselves the liberty and yet you would not think them inspir'd I am sure I mean they are able to speak so readily and fluently so earnestly and passionately of all manner of things and to continue this strain so long and that without humming or hawing that if you did
Spirit and though he was killed yet he was raised again from the dead by it and after that he sent the Spirit upon his Apostles who thereby demonstrated that he was the Son of God with power Which are all reasons for my belief and if you have any other I would gladly hear them or know whether you believe without any Reason at all N.C. These are Spiritual Reasons C. I like your Language very well only remember that these are the Divinest Reasons which cannot be resisted For thus our mind argues with it self That which God testified by voices from Heaven and by a world of Miracles is to be believed that Jesus is his Son he did in this manner testifie therefore we are to believe that he is God's Son N.C. Who taught you to reason on this fashion C. Is this such a mighty business that you wonder at We are taught continually to give our selves these reasons why we should believe And methinks it is the most powerful preaching in the world For if I believe firmly that Jesus is the Son of God is risen from the dead and will come to judg the world how can I chuse but obey him with great care and constancy N.C. You say true But me thinks there is more Spiritual Preaching than this C. What should that be N.C. To preach the great Misteries of the Gospel C. Is not this the first great Mystery of Godliness God manifested in the flesh 1 Tim. 3.16 and is not this the next that he was justified in or by the Spirit which we give as a proof that he was manifested in the flesh Read the rest and then come and hear our Minister and you shall find them a I unfolded one time or other in a plain and ample manner N.C. These methinks are no such great Mysteries C. No sure you know not the meaning of the word Mystery but live onely upon phrases Was not this a Secret kept in the breast of God from ages and generations N.C. Yes C. Then it is a Mystery and the chief and first of all That God hath sent his Son into the World As for the ends of his sending him if those be they you call Mysteries they are as much declared among us as among you and perhaps a great deal more N.C. What do you mean C. I mean his dying for our Sins and rising again for our Justification and Intercession on our behalf at God's right hand I dare say these are as well opened to us as ever they have been to you N.C. I am glad to hear it for I alwayes thought there was little but Legal Preaching among you C. You mean we are taught to obey the Commands of Christ N.C. No the Doctrine of Good works is always sounding from your Pulpits C. These are the same thing for no other Works are taught us but such as Christ injoyns As for the Works of Moses his Law we never hear of them but only that they do no longer oblige us If we did I assure you we should call our Preachers Legal as much as you can do N.C. But I am afraid the insisting so much upon Good works is Legal C. You should rather fear that the Preaching of them so little leads men to Libertinism N.C. We are tender least the Grace of God should be impeached by putting men so much upon Doing C. Then it seems you think it peculiar to the Spirit of the Law to be very sollicitous about Doing well N.C. Yes C. Now I see you are in very gross darkness For certainly both the Law and the Gospel put men upon doing but not the same things nor with the same disposition N.C. Explain your self for methinks you are in the dark C. The Gospel give us better rules of life and gives us power to do according to them with a more willing and chearful mind than the Law did N.C. Where then is grace all this while C. It was the Grace of God that gave us the Gospel and it is his Grace that accepts of our repentance and obedience after we have offended him which pardons also and passes by our failings and imperfections when we sincerely design and study to obey him in all things N.C. You do not think then that you can deserve any thing of him C. No how should we seeing we are his Creatures and owe him all the Service we can do him Which makes us believe that if we had been born in innocence and continued so till this time we could have merited nothing much less can we pretend to it now that we are Sinners N.C. But you think Good works are necessary to our Justification C. Who ever doubted of it that understood himself N.C. That doth many a Godly Divine whom I have heard say that they are not requisite to our Justification but only to our Salvation C. I am loath to say that those Godly Divines did not mind what they said because I ought in modesty to suspect my own Understanding rather than theirs But to me it seems a strange thing that they should not observe Salvation to be nothing else but our final and absolute justification at the day of Judgment And then I am sure our Saviour saith he will examine what men have done and according as he finds it good or bad pronounce the sentence of Absolution or Condemnation Read the 25. of S. Matthew from the 31. verse to the end N.C. What do you conclude from thence C. What That if good works be necessary to our Justification then when we come before the Judge they are necessary now to the beginning of our Justification or if you would have me speak other words to enter us into the state of Justified persons N.C. How can that be since we are justified by Faith only C. Very well For it is not an idle ineffectual Faith which justifies us but that which works by love to our Saviour and love is the keeping of his Commandements N.C. I see one shall not want rational discourse at your Church as you call it but methinks I nevr found that life and power in your Ministry which I have in ours C. I told you before that I find nothing so powerful as the Christian Doctrine rationally handled And if the Faith of Christ be not so preached as I now told you for my part I feel no force in the loudest words that I hear but am apt to say as the man did when he shear'd his Hogs Here is a great deal of noise and little wool N.C. My meaning was That ours move my affections very much and yours stir them not at all C. I have been taught that there are two wayes to come at the Affections One by the Senses and Imagination and so we see people mightily affected with a Puppet-play with a Beggar 's tone with a lamentable Look or any thing of like nature The other is by the Reason and Judgment when the evidence of any Truth convincing the Mind engages the
I had once perused a little of it N. C. What part did you peruse C. I thought that the Marrow I was told of might be found if any where in that Discourse which he calls the Way and Spirit of the New Testament But as far as I examin'd it I met with nothing but a great many bones to pick and they had little or nothing on them N. C. Pray forbear this merriment and let us seriously consider what he saith C. That 's my desire And for your satisfaction read that part where he tells us what the way of the Old Testament was and what the way of the New is I believe I shall convince you that he is not only out of the true way but also describes his own way after a poor and wretched manner N. C. Be not so earnest C. He tells us in the first place That the Old Testament Legal spirit serves God upon the account of Rewards mostly or chiefly or only But the New Testament spirit doth not Whereas there is nothing plainer than that Rewards are propounded in both Covenants to encourage our duty And the Gospel urges us so frequently with the consideration of the rewards it promises that I question not but he that hath them always in his mind and serves our Lord Christ out of those hopes as his chief motive pleases him very well For the true difference between the Covenants is not that the one sets rewards before men and the other not but that the old Covenant made with the Jews propounded Temporal Rewards and the Gospel propounds Eternal which arâ— as often repeated in the Gospel as the other it the Law And therefore he hath discovered 〈◊〉 New-nothiing when he saith that to serve Goâ— for Rewards mostly c. is plainly Legal Nay it is absolutely false For if a man be moved a I said only by hopes of unseen things in anoâ— ther world to obey God and quit things present for his sake no doubt he serves him in an Evangelical manner N. C. Good Neighbour be not so confident C. Why should I not have some degree of confidence about these things seeing I am master of common Reason and I have consulted also with several of our Ministers about them who have made it plain to me that the Gospel propounds Eternal Rewards in the Life to come as the great motive to well-doing The most that any sober man ever said as far as I can learn in this argument is that he who doth well only in sight of those rewards is in a weak estate but they always allowed him to be indued with an Evangelical Spirit N. C. Then it seems you live upon your own purse and upon what you can earn of God which he tells you is contrary to a Gospel spirit C. It is so But that is an impertinent Conclusion from his former discourse For a man may serve God upon the account of Reward and yet not be so foolish as to imagine he can earn any thing of him N. C. Indeed you speak too confidently C. I am not of that mind For I may judge what is consequently spoken as well as another man And I am sure that Conclusion is nothing to the purpose only he imagin'd this to be a pretty saying That a man of a Gospel spirit knows he lives upon a better purse than all his own â—arnings can amount unto N.C. I wish you would be more temperate C. Who can endure to see men bear up themselves so highly and hear them cry'd up as if they were full of the Spirit when as there is scarce common sense in them and not be a little concern'd N.C. Well suppose there be one flaw in that Discourse must that make all this ado C. One flaw Read the rest and you will find that it is no wiser For he would have us immediately after to receive this as another note of a Legal spirit that it is a fearing spirit put on rather by the Threatnings than the Promises and the Gospel spirit rather by Promises than Threatning N.C. And is not this true C. No. For our Saviour bids his Disciples again and again to fear Luke 12.4 5. not indeed such things as the Mosaical spirit did Temporal Calamities upon their Bodies Goods c. but Eternal Miseries which they should avoid though with the enduring of all the hardships in the world And whereas he says that the difference between the Dispensations is that the one is terrible the other comfortable it is manifestly false For the Gospel speaks a great deal more terribly than the Law doth to Hypocrites and Unbelievers N.C. Therefore he tells you afterward that a gratious Soul may be full of fears about its condition C. This is nothing to his business For he was not speaking concerning the fears which a Soul hath about its estate but of the Principle upon which a man doth his duty And if I understand any thing a Christian is moved by fear as well as hope N.C. Well he acknowledges so much when he saith a gracious heart may be full of fears C. I tell you again this is impertinent for these are not motives to his Duty but rather hindrances and impediments as he will tell you And besides he makes them to be causeless fears for he saith they are the fears of a man that stands upon a rock and therefore he ought not to be troubled with them Whereas the Scripture requires us to fear Hebr. 4.1 and tells us there is cause for it lest a Promise being left us of entring into rest any of us should seem to come shore of it and to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and to have grace to serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear Mind this last place and tell me if it do not directly oppose what he saith He perswades you that a fearing spirit is a Legal spiritâ— and the Apostle tells you it is an effect of the Gospel grace and such a thing whereby we acceptably serve God N.C. You have studied this I perceive and I have not But what say you to the third which is this A Legal spirit measures the love of God by outward things C. I say it is the best thing he says and he was to blame that he passed it over so slightly and hastily as if it were not worth his notice N.C. Is not the fourth as remarkable viz. That an Old Testament Spirit trades much or most or altogether with conditional Promises the other not C. It is indeed very remarkable First for the paltry phrase of trading in promises and Secondly for the pernicious consequence of the Doctrine N.C. Why Is not the Doctrine true C. No. For though there was an absolute Promise of sending Christ yet there are no absolate Promises which Christ makes to us N.C. He seems to grant as much C. That is he contradicts himself N.C. No he saith though the Promise bâ— Conditional yet the Lord hath promised that
was come to shew them how the Saints might pry into the Father's Glory and in short bid them not be afraid of New Lights but set open their windows for any Light that God should make known to them N.C. Sure no body used such Expressions as these C. This last is to be found in that very Authour you have laid out of your hands pag. 47. who also puts the people into a fancy that they have Revelation and Visions in these dayes N.C. Certainly you do him wrong C. You shall be judg of that when you have read the beginning of the next page There he tells you that there are four times wherein you should think much on Christ crucified And the first is this In case of some Revelation or Vision that you may be under Which he repeats again in the following page It is a good thing saith he to think of Christ crucified at all times 〈◊〉 when you have Revelations and Visions c. 〈…〉 is a good time From whence I conclude 〈…〉 as he bids you open your windows for new Lights to come in so when he thinks on 't he will call upon you as the Beadle doth in the Streets Hang out your Lights Hang out your new Lights N.C. Pray be not so abusive C. There is no abuse at all in this For the same reason that made him step at first out of the common way of speaking may make him use such an expression as this if he light on it I◠being also a thing peculiar to such men to please the people with some new-found Words and Phrases which if they should lay aside together with all their abused Scripture-expression they would look just like other men only not so well N. C. You may say your pleasure C. I thank you And pray look back again and consider what followed all these glorious Discoveries as they called them Since the people were so much in love with new-minted Words in which they thought there were great Mysteries concealed those men who would excell all the rest of these new Teachers set forth themselves in more pompous Language and made a shew of a more glorious Appearance of God in them For they told the people of being Godded with God and Christed with Christ c. which strangely amused silly Souls and made them gaze and stare as if the Holy Ghost were come down again from Heaven upon men N. C. Our Ministers are not of this strain C. But they first began this affectation of new phrases and no wonder if their Scholars endeavoured to out-do them N. C. They are none of their Scholars C. Sure they all came out of their School For they taught men first to despise sober and plain Doctrine which teaches them their Duty toward God and their Neighbour entertaining them with finer Speculations of pretended Gospel-Mysteries and Manifestations with which we heard almost every Sermon stuffed so that he was thought no body that had not good store of them Now as those you admire found they could win no great number of Proselytes unless they left the old track of Preaching Sobriety Justice Charity and Godliness so their Scholars found in a little time that the new Notions and Language of their Masters were grown stale and that unless they invented newer at least coined some other Phrases their Reputation would be but small And thus it came to pass that every one striving not so much to speak what would profit as what would please dressed up Religion in affected Language of his own making and new Expressions if not new Notions were heaped one upon another every year till none knew what Christianity was For at last there arose a Company of fine Youths who judged even their Masters to be in a low and dull Form of Religion sticking in the beggerly Elements and the dead letter and the Old-Testament spirit as their manner of speaking was These imagine that not only we but you know Jesus only in the Flesh and stand in the outward Court and are not yet come within the Veil to discern the Spirit and the Mystery which they alone bring to light Such a progress doth Fancy make when once it is let loose and men are taught not to reason but to believe there is no end of its Follies and God only knows when this Nation which is overflowed with them and is made fond of them will be reduced to a more sober mind N.C. We bewail it as well as you C. I am glad of it But I wish you would bewail the Original sin of all as W. B. advises you in another case I doubt with no good meaning pag. 473. which will be found in your selves from whence a great number of other Mischiefs have flowed and made the same progress with that now named For you first taught the people to forbear all expression of Devotion when they came into the Church and decried the reverence of uncovering the Head there as Superstitious and abominable And so they soon took the liberty to come talking into the Church and not onely to walk with their Hats on to their Seats even when the Minister was reading the Holy Scriptures but keep them half on when he was at Prayer And then because others were wont to kneel or at least Stand in that holy Duty they would shew their Liberty or their Opposition I know not whether in Sitting nay in Lolling after a lazy fashion as if the Minister were telling a sleepy Tale not praying to our Creatour In short there were no bounds could be set to their Extravagancies but they found out as many new Gestures and odd phrantick Expressions in their Prayers as before they had done in their Preaching N.C. For all this you shall never make me believe but that they are the onely Spiritual Preachers C. This you told me before and I am of your mind if you call that Spiritual Doctrine which is airy thin and so refined that no body can feel and touch it no not with his most serious thoughts N.C. Yes I can feel it to be very Spiritual C. It is an hard matter to understand your Language Do all our Preachers onely tell us carnal things N.C. That is not my meaning C. What then N.C. I call it Spiritual to distinguish it from Moral Teaching C. As much as to say our Ministers teach men their Duty and yours do not or else that yours teach them onely such Duties as may be done in their Spirits between God and themselves but not such as are expressed in Life and Manners in our bodily actions which tend to the good of our Neighbours and the Happiness of the world N.C. I understand you not C. Your Sermons are chiefly about prayer and meditation and Communion with God and Believing N.C. Yes Believing Now you have hit my meaning C. But I was going to add something to that word viz. Believing without Doing Else you will not count it spiritual Preaching N.C. Not if they
that among other abominable Errors and damnable Heresies as they are called pag. 4. this is condemn'd for one pag. 22. That little can be done unless Liberty of Conscience be allowed for every man and sort of men to worship God in that way and perform the Ordinances of Christ in that manner as shall appear to them most agreeable to God's Word c. This among others they call a horrid and prodigious Opinion and tell us pag. 32. and 33. that it will lay the glory of the most high God in the dust if it take place and raze the Truth of Christ to the ground and overthrow all Christ's Ordinances and together therewith Magistrates and Ministers and all Religious and comely Order c. In short they say we shall be disown'd by all Reformed Churches who will cry out Is this England who covenanted to extirpate Popery Prelacy Superstition Schism c and after so long travel hath she nom bâ—ought forth an hidious Monster of Toleration N. C. I know all this as well as you can tell me and they are of the same mind still for this was writ onely against an Vniversal Toleration of all Sects which they abhorr C. I can tell you another story They would not so much as tolerate five poor men who professed to agree with them in all matters of Doctrine Judge then what their Opinions were about Liberty when they would not allow it to so few dissenting Brethren N. C. That was a great while ago and most of those streight-lac'd men are dead C. No such matter But if they were their Principles did not die with them but survived in their followers And yet now all on a sudden they are vanish'd Now they are for Liberty of Conscience By which if they mean onely a Liberty for themselves let them speak out that all their Brethren of the Separation may hear them And withal let them acquaint us by what Title they claim this Favour more than the rest of the Sects that are sprung from them who might take the liberty to separate from them as well as they take the Liberty to seperate from us And before they prove that it is due to them let them first answer their own Argument against the Independents which I can shew them in a Letter of the London Ministers to the Assembly of Divine which was this That to grant a Toleration to them and not to other Sectaries will be counted Injustices N. C. I perceive you are of a persecuting spirit C. You rather discover your self of a turbulent spirit which cannot forbear to trouble and confound even our discourse For that is not the business whether all Restraint of mens liberty be Persecution nor whether I am for it or no but to shew you that once your Ministers were of such a spirit as you call persecuting and now are not N. C. Then they are changed for the better C. You should have said Then they are chang'd which was the thing we were speaking of whether for the better or no that 's another question And let them if you please resolve it I believe they will not confess they were of a persecuting spirit when they were against the Liberty which they now claim N. C. What do you make them of no Principles at all C. Do not mistake me so They are constant to some Principles particularly this That all is well done that they do though quite contrary to what they did before N. C. You are bitter C. Do you like this Principle better which they will not forsake I warrant you That they are in God's way and therefore ought to be tolerated whereas all others are our of his way and therefore ought not to be tolerated N. C. You much offend me by these Reflections C. I 'll tell you another then that 's more moderate and will please you better That they must by all means keep you from coming to Church for fear you should see that you may be as well taught elsewhere as in their private Meetings N. C. I told you before there is no danger of that C. But you told me no Reason as I have shewn you that 's worth any thing N. C. We have one that will never suffer us to come to Church more as long as your Ministers are there C. What terrible Scare-crow should that that be N. C. To tell you the truth many of us do not think that they are Ministers C. Now you have revealed the Bottom of your heart Pardon me that sudden conclusion you may have more yet lurking behind which you have not told me I should rather have said Now you have revealed your Unskilfulness more than ever For what have any of yours to qualifie them for the Ministry which ours have not as well as they If you require the inward motions of the Spirit of God inclining a man to devote himself to this work which some of you think is enough this ours profess to have felt as you may see in the Form of ordering Priests If it be further necessary to be approved by Presbyters and to have their hands laid on them this is not wanting to ours as you may there also be satisfied N. C. But the Bishop layes on his hands also C. And can this unhallow them when they are so dedicated to God N. C. Yes so I am told C. Then you would sooner believe what one of your own Party says without any reason than what we say with all the reason in the world which is plainly partial affection N. C. Why so C. Is it not apparent that a Bishop is a Presbyter too though we think him more N. C. You acknowledge a distinction of persons in the Church which is Antichristian C. Nay then I have done with you You condemn all the ancient Church of Antichristianism and more than that the very Apostles themselves and the Evangelists who it is manifest had some Superiority over their brethren But observe whither you are run having once left your way You mix the very dregs of all other Sects with your own and believe any thing that makes against us even such things as the Minister you commonly hear would be asham'd to say First you onely disliked the Common Prayer then you did not love the man that read it next you would not come to hear him and now you will not allow him to be a Minister nay rather than suffer him to enjoy that name you will venture to deprive Apostolical men of their Office who exercised an Authority over their brethren N. C. Suppose they did yet they were not Lords C. No nor do we ordain any Lords when we make Bishops That 's an Honour which the King doth them to qualifie them to sit in Parliament and advise about the Affairs of the Realm in which they are as much concern'd as other men N. C. If their Lordships would preach more perhaps we might like them better C. I doubt not For those that do
Days which is to make that necessary which God hath left free But yet notwithstanding you your selves stick not to lay such a necessity upon men of observing Dayes now and then as if there were a Divine Commandment for it for you think they have no Religion or want the Power of it that do not And what a stir do you keep to have Lectures on the Week-days as if we were dead and had but a Name to live unless we hear a Sermon or two then whereas very good Christians perhaps have no more time to spare from their honest Imployments than they ought to bestow in private Prayer and Meditation digesting of what they heard the Sunday before searching seriously into their Consciences and constant Examination of their Lives and Actions in conferring with their Ministers about their Doubts or those Indispositions or perhaps ill Inclinations which they find in their Souls in Comforting the poor and the sick in Endeavouring to reconcile Differences among Neighbors in consulting how to advance the publick Good either of the City or Town where they live and discharging the publick Office well to which they may be called If after all this done they can find any leisure to hear a Sermon who is there that forbids it We are only afraid lest whilst the necessity of that is so much urged things more necessary should be neglected N. C. You say a great many notable things but yet to me you seem a man of a slight Spirit which you betray when you speak of these weighty matters C. If you mean that I slight many of those things which you think matters of great weight and moment I cannot contradict you But why you should thence conclude I have a slight Spirit I see no cause For therefore I slight them because I have throughly consider'd and examin'd them and find there is nothing but Fansie or Superstition at the bottom of them Mistake me not your honest Affections I do not slight but the things to which you are so affected As for instance you abound in insignificant Phrases and Scripture-Expressions misapplied You have a great many Superstitious Conceits Opinions and oftimes alledg your Experiences very absurdly N. C. Nay now you discover your self Doth not this argue a profane Spirit to slight Experiences when the Apostle mentions Christian Experience as a part of our Rejoycing and Glory Rom. 5.4 C. I do not slight his Experiences but yours and not all of yours neither For if by your Experience you meant that you had made a proof of your Constancy and Faithfulness to Christ by patient enduring of any Affliction for Righteousness sake and made a Trial also of his Faithfulness in performing his promises of giving us Strength Support and Comfort which I conceive is the Apostle's meaning I should accuse my self of great Profaneness should I slight it But when you will needs give me this word for a proof of a thing of which I know you have no Experience and perhaps can have none and when you alledg your Experience in a matter of Reason and in effect say no more than this I pray believe me you must not take it ill if I make light of it As for example when you will tell us you find by Experience that you are in the right way it is a thing that may be entertain'd with a smile It is in truth no better than to say you may take my word for it For whether you be in the right or no is not to be known by Experience but by Reason In like manner if you tell me you find by Experience your Minister is a good man because he doth you good it is a frivolous Argument and I may be allow'd to slight it for it cannot be known by your Experience what he is You can only know by your Experience that you are made better but he may be bad enough notwithstanding As the Quakers were reform'd of Cheating and Cousenage in some places by those who there is great reason to suspect were cheating knaves themselves N. C. But I may know by Experience whether the things he preaches be true or no. C. It will deceive you if you rely upon that Proof For you may have some good done you by false Principles Nay those very Principles may make you do some things well which shall make you do other things ill N. C. That 's strange C. Not so strange as true For what Principle was it that led the Quakers to be just in their dealing N. C. That they ought to follow the Light within them C. This led them also to be rude and clownish and disrespectful to Governors For all is not Reason that is in us there is a world of Fansie also and the Flashes of this now and then are very sudden and amazing just like Lightning out of a Cloud By this they find they were mis-led in many things which they have now forsaken being content to wear Hatbands and Ribbons too which they so much at the first abominated N. C. I take them to be a deluded people C. And yet they are led they will tell you by Experience For they found themselvs amended by entring into that Religion whereas they cheated and cousened in all other Forms wherin they were before And therefore do not tell me any more of the good you have got by your private meetings nor make it an argument of their Lawfulness For the same Argument will be used against your selvs by the Quakers who will tell you God is in no private Meetings but only theirs for otherwhere they could never find him Take your choice and either let it alone your selves or else allow it them It will either serve both or neither N. C. But I have seen you smile if one bring his Experience to prove the truth of Christian Religion C. Yes and very deservedly Because the Ground upon which we believe it to be true cannot be known by Experience nor is your Experience of any thing in it a Ground for any other man to believe it You cannot know for instance by your Experience that our Saviour was born of a Virgin that the Holy Ghost came upon him at his Baptism with a Voice from Heaven saying This is my well-beloved Son in whom I am well pleased You cannot know by that means that he dyed that he rose the third day that he went to Heaven forty dayes after and after ten dayes more gave the Holy Ghost and that S. Paul was struck blind with the Glory of our Saviour whom 〈◊〉 saw and heard and was sent by him to preach the Gospel N. C. Yes I feel that he and the rest of the Apostles speak the very truth C. They say all these things and do you know them by your feeling The Apostles indeed felt or saw or heard them but we cannot do so nor know them by any other means than their Testimony N. C. I feel that their Testimony is true C. What
a little after p. 482. As sure as the Morning is after the Night so sure will God return His going forth is prepared as the Morning as certain he will return as the Morning doth This I must needs say was kindly said and like a Poet who can invent what he pleases and leave out what makes not for his turn N.C. Methinks you invent what you please And since you are so good at it I pray let me know what invention you have to excuse your Playes which have so much Obscenity in them C. It 's more than I know if they have any at all And should there be any assure your self the Ears of those whom we esteem Godly are no less chast than yours and would not endure it But did you ever hear that any of our Ministers spoke things so nearly approaching to immodesty as W. B. doth N. C. I shall stop my ears if you offer to rake into such matters C. I did not intend it were you never so willing to hear it I would only have you know that if I should present you with all the filthy Expressions and Allusions that I have met withal in such Books as his I should make you repent that ever you led me to this Discourse N.C. I cannot conceive that they should fall into such Errors since they are the strictest sort of men as you very well know and love to preach very plainly C. Now I understand what you mean by plain preaching which you so much talk of viz. to use rude and broad expressions As when W. B. saith a little Estate is but a Mess of Pottage and a great Estate a great Bowl of Pottage Have I not hit your meaning N.C. No. C. Then it is very hard to know what it is And indeed the Assembly of Divines when they direct men how to perform their Ministry and among other things tell them they must preach plainly do not speak plainly themselves in their Directory i. e. not so as to be understood For these are their words pag. 17. The Servant of Christ is to perform his whole Ministry c. Plainly that the meanest may understand delivering the Truth not in the enticing words of man's wisdom but in Demonstration of the Spirit and of Power lest the Cross of Christ should be made of none effect Now since you acknowledge they cannot prophesy nor speak with Tongues nor Demonstrate their Doctrine by Miracles as the Apostles did I would gladly know what they mean by the Demonstration of the Spirit and of Power I am apt to think it would puzzle a new Assembly to tell us in plain words what they intended by that Phrase N.C. If you were taught of God as they are you would easily know C. We are all taught of God by the Apostles who have revealed his Mind to us and that in a Divine manner And therefore by pretending you are taught of God more than we when you cannot prove it you only shew that you are taught to Cant in Scripture-phrase Pray let 's see if you understand any better another Direction of theirs which is to preach painfully not doing the work of the Lord negligently Whom do you account a painful Preacher N. C. One that takes a great deal of pains C. It is just as plain as it was before and you give me a very good demonstration how well you are bred to a clear and plain understanding of things But that which you mean I believe is one who preaches often N.C. Yes C. That 's the way to do the work of the Lord negligently as common experience hath taught us N. C. Not if they take pains to consider what they say C. But you would see them so often in the Pulpit that you do not allow them time for that and other Ministerial Duties Hence it is that upon all occasions they apply the Holy Scriptures very impertinently and interpret them negligently and alledge that for a Proof which is nothing to the purpose nay quite contrary to that which they maintain Witness W. B. who from that place in Hosea 6.3 his going forth is prepared as the Morning would have his people believe that God will as certainly return to them as the morning is after night Whereas that is only spoken to the Ten Tribes and the Prophet doth not give them an absolute assurance that they shall return to their own Land but only invites them to Repentance and on that condition promises God in a little time will revive them Nay he requires not only that they should begin to know God whom they had forsaken but that they should continue and persevere to know him and then saith he his going forth is prepared as the Morning i. e. he was ready to comfort them as the Morning-light doth those that wait for it and would come upon them as the Rain which quickens and calls back the Corn to life which otherwise would have lain dead in the Earth It is true W. B. saith a little before if you desire God should return to you return you to him as if there were some condition in the business But this is only his usual way of saying and unsaying of granting promises to be Conditional which he would have his people believe shall be performed absolutely And indeed so much he had told them before this that they might not be discomforted though they did not return to God Friends saith he pag. 478. there is a time when God will deliver his people for his Names sake and with a notwithstanding i. e. notwithstanding all their Sins and notwithstanding all his Displeasures as he explains himself Now if you would know when that time is he tells us When a people suffer for God's Name 's sake then God will deliver for his Name 's sake then God will deliver with a notwithstanding And this he would have them believe is their present state and condition How is it with you now they are his words you are in a suffering day but are not all your sufferings for the Name of Christ Be of good comfort then though God may be departed and your City destroyed yet he is not quite gone but will return again that is notwithstanding all their Sins he would not leave them Do you not see how confident he is This it is for men to fansy themselves at the Fathers knee and to be in his arms and held in his Embraces held in his Smiles as he speaks p. 469. They say even what they please when they are full of this conceit and think it is the Oracles of God They tell you their own mind and believe it is the mind of the Lord. And when they tell it you in such delicate Expressions as these or such rude and gross ones as those before mentioned you call it plain Preaching and powerful Preaching N.C. The Assembly told you if you would have observ'd what plain Preaching is in that very place which you quoted where they require