against preaching of Gods woorde that it maketh men neuer the better and ye would haue them leaue talking and fall to doing I confesse there be a number which are counterfeite professors which liue not according to the Gospell and most commonly they be such as haue but a little smacke of the Gospel and yet thinke they know much because they want the meanes hauing the worde either seldome or loosely preached But I will confute your vanitie another waye in this point tell me are not these your sayinges where the woorde is sincerely preached if any seeke to frame their liues after the same when they doe eyther by woorde reprooue your euill wayes or by deede refuse your lewde maners These men are full of the Spirite these are precise fellowes these are holie Saintes these thinke them selues Gods fellowes these thinke them selues better then all other men Ath. We say so in deede there is good cause why Zelot Then I pray ye tell me howe these two thinges can hang together when ye saie there is no amendement of life and yet yee complaine that they be ouer full of the spirit ouer precise and such like May not euery man see that ye pronounce thinges directly contrarie the one to the other that there is no amendment and yet in effect ye say they amende ouer fast Ath. Wee doe not saye that any doe amende ouer fast Zelot When ye say they are ouer holy and what shoulde men be so curious and full of the spirite what is this but to say that they amende ouer fast Is not this to amend when men by due instruction out of Gods woorde come to repentaunce of their former vices and haue a care to keepe them selues from the spottes of the rotten fleshe and filthie worlde Do not you and such as you are after a sort blaspheme when yee reproche men with the spirite Is it a shame for a man nowe a dayes for to haue anye thing to doe with the spirite of God While a man doeth walke after the fleshe in the lustes of vncleannesse he is an honest man But so soone as hee is indued with any grace ye wonder at him as crowes do at an owle yee are readie to floute and mocke him out of his skinne And as if the spirite of GOD were a spirite of dishonour and shame yee mocke men with him Wee may wonder at the longe patience of GOD which hath thus many yeeres suffered himselfe to be dishonoured his spirite reuiled his woorde despised and hath not been reuenged but no doubt the longer hee hath â—aried the heauier will the stroke be Ath. Men are men what shoulde they make themselues more holy then they be Zelot If ye meane one way ye say right for it is a naughtie vice for men to seeme to be holy when they are not or to seeme to be more holy then they be but if yee meane another way as I thinke ye doe that because men are sinfull by nature why shoulde they seeke for to be better then doe ye speake verie wickedly For God calleth men to repentance to turne from their euill wayes God guideth his seruants at all times with his spirite therfore S. paule sayth Rom. 8. There Is no condemnation nowe to those whiche are in Christ Iesus which walke not after the fleshe but after the spirite And againe in the same chapter As many as are led by the spirite of God are the sonnes of God Hee sayth that if wee liue after the fleshe we shall dye in other places he doth shewe whiche are the workes of the spirite and whiche are the workes of the fleshe And you like blasphemous wretches allowe those whiche walke after the flesh and condemne those which are led by the spirite Ath. Are none indued with Gods Spirite but such as runne to heare preaching Zelot Whosoeuer hath the spirite of God can not but delight in the woorde of God whiche the same spirite hath vttered The Lorde saith hee which is of God heareth Gods worde The happie man is hee as wee haue in the 1. Psalme whiche hath his delight in the lawe of the Lorde and which doeth meditate in the same day and night We haue in the psalme 112. Blessed is the man which feareth the Lorde hee hath great delight in his commaundements Moreouer the spirite of GOD doeth not guide men without the woorde And therefore it is saide Psalme 119. Thy woorde is a lanterne vnto my feete and a light vnto my pathes S Peter sayth I. Epist 1. Hee hath beegotten vs againe not of mortall but of immortall seede which he affirmeth to bee the worde of God that indureth for euer Likewise S. Iames saith cap. 1. of his owne good will begat hee vs by the woord of trueth Seeing therfore that the holy Ghost doth guide men by the worde it followeth that all those which set light by the woorde are led not with the spirite of God but with the spirite of the Diuell I might alleadge a number of testimonies of Scripture to prooue that such as you which make so small accompt of the sacred woorde of God as there be a number yea the greatest number whiche doe not set so muche by it as they doe by an olde shoe are despicers of God worse then brute beastes Ath. Cannot men be lead by Gods spirit and serue God vnlesse they knowe the Scriptures GOD forbidde that all those shoulde bee awry which are not learned is it not enough for plaine countrie men plow men taylours and suche other for to haue their ten commaundementes the Lordes prayer and the beliefe I thinke these may suffice vs what shoulde wee meddle further I knowe men whiche are no scripture men whiche serue GOD as well as the best of them all Will yee condemne such Zelot I sayde before that men can not be lead by Gods spirite and refuse to knowe the Scriptures Neyther can they truelie serue him vntill suche time as they knowe howe for to serue him for GOD teacheth howe he will be serued and hee teacheth onlie in his worde his will is that we shal learne to know him by his worde And therefore he hath appointed the Ministerie of the woorde to continue for euer in his Church that by it men may be built vp in Christe as yee may reade Ephe. 4. For this cause S. Paule exhorteth Tymothie to bee instant in teaching in season out of season he trauelled himselfe night and daie he maketh a verie ferâ—eâ—â— prayer to God continuallie for the Collossians that they might bee fulfilled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdome and spirituall vnderstanding Collos ver 9. For this cause hee exhorteth the Christians to bee children in malice but not to bee children in vnderstanding The holy Ghost doth sharpely reprooue the Hebrewes as wee may see in the latter end of the 5. chap. of that Epistle because they were yet children to be taught when for the time they shoulde haue been teachers Againe there is
it serue Zelot Howe proude and presumptuously bolde ignoraunce doth make a man It might seeme to bee a rare thing that a mortall man which is but claye and dust yea a rotten Carion shoulde aduaunce himselfe against God euen the Lorde of infinite wisedome and glorie but that wee see it dayly for to be common Ath. Doe not accuse me for to be proud I would I were as frée from all other faults if it pleased God Zelot If ye were as sicke as ye be proude a verie litle meate woulde giue yee your supper But I knowe you doe not see your pride Ath. I maruell why ye shoulde counte â—â— proude ye see how plaine I goe Zelot You thinke that pride is in the coate when it is in the heart a man may haue a kinges hearte in his breast and yet a beggers coate vppon his backe There is cause why yee doe not goe gay yee are not able for take the ragged dest begger in the worlde and giue her the same wing whiche the great Ladies haue and yee shall see her flie the same flight There is pride against GOD and against men and you are in the deepest of them euen agaynste God Ath. Prooue that because yée condemne me so sore Zelot Yee take your selfe for to bee wise and the Lorde vndiscrete and vnwise For yee charge him with follie when as yee say this doctrine doeth ouerthrowe all and yet hee hath expressed it in sundrie places of his woorde If it bee so exceeding hurtfull then surely Christ was to be blamed Saint Paule and saint Peter with the rest of the Apostles were verie vndiscrete because they haue sette it foorth It seemeth that it had been good for them to haue taken aduise of the deepe heades of the worlde whiche might haue foretolde them the daunger whiche woulde followe and haue saide Maisters take heede howe yee deale with suche doctrine it will turne yee vnto discretite O foolishe wise fleshe this matter is ouer farre beyonde thy reache thou canst neuer come within the smell of it Ath. Smell or smel not let me heare yée aunsweare the matter Zelot You suppose that your reasons are vnaunswerable and that causeth yee to bee so freshe and readie but alas man your halfepenie is no good siluer yee are in a wrong boxe I will shewe you howe childishly ye erre Forsooth say you if God hath chosen a man to saluation before hee was borne then let him doe as euill as he can hee shall not bee damned and whereas the nature of man is prone and readie to seeke after the libertie of the fleshe this doth open a doore vnto him and a wide passage vnto all euill because he needeth not to care what he doth it is appointed before hande what shall become of him This mightie and inuincible reason of yours hath neuer an eye to see with all and although it seeme for to haue good legges yet is it but an olde Criple be not led by it for yee shall both fall into the ditch Did yee neuer heare what S. Paule sayth Ephesians Chapter I. 4. these are his wordes as he hath chosen vs in him before the foundations of the worlde were layde that wee shoulde bee holy and without blame before him through loue Howe stand these two thinges together when you say if men be chosen they may liue as they lust and God sayth by his Apostle that hee hath chosen them for to bee holy and blamelesse in their conuersation And this is vndoubtedly true that those whom God hath predestinate to bee heires of glory hee hath sealed them with the holy Spirite as yee maye reade in the same Chapter They are freed from the bondage of sinne by the spirite they walke in the spirite they are led by the spirite they shewe forth by the fruites of the spirite that the flesh with the lustes and concupiscences thereof is crucified in them and that they are regenerate and 〈…〉 againe of the spirite and so become newe creatures in Christ sinne is abhominable vnto them they hate loth it no lesse then deadlie poison they pant and breath to be wholy set free from the remnantes of it Righteousnesse is deare and precious vnto them their ioye and heartes delight is in it They sigh and grone because they can not reache vnto the perfection of it The word of God doth plainely teach that the electe are thus as I haue shewed and yet men say that election taketh away all care of Godlye life Ath. I like not this that men will saye they know God hath chosen them howe can they tell Can any man tell what God will doe with him Did God euer tell them that they are elected Zelot Howe shoulde you like of this when as yee like of no goodnesse Howe shoulde you which are but a naturall man iudge of thinges spirituall You thinke a man can not tell what GOD will do with him because you are blinde and see not the way ye suppose all other are so you are an Infidell or els ye might plainly heare GOD speake in his woord and tell which shall be saued and which are in the way to damnation Doe ye suppose that it is vncertayne when the scripture telleth a man howe he shall knowe that he is chosen if the woorde of God tell him he is chosen hath not God himselfe then tolde him Read the first Chapter of the seconde Epistle of Peter and there yee shall see how a man shall knowe certainely that he is elected and that hee shall neuer fall For if a man feele that GOD teacheth him by his spirite and reneweth him by repentaunce he is sure because God sayth so that he is chosen to eternall life if at any time hee feele the grace of GOD weake in him then doeth hee doubt and stagger but yet his fayth getteth the vpper hande On the other side when a man liueth in sinne and obeyeth vnrighteousnesse God telleth him plainely that he is in the way to damnation And therefore all those which do not finde in them selues the spirituall birth at the least begunne whereby they may assure them selues that they be chosen May certainly say that as yet their state is damnable Ath. Howe can yee saye their state is damnable so long as they beléeue Can men do more then beléeue Zelot They doe not beleeue for if they beleeue then are they sure that GOD loueth them what is it else which they beleeue if they knowe they bee in fauour with God it is because he chose them in Christ If they doubt of Gods fauour then doe they doubt whether God heareth their prayers therefore they shall not receyue any thing at the handes of GOD as ye may learne in the Epistle of Saint Iames. Chapter 1. verse 6 7. and although manie of the faithfull doe doubt stagger oftentimes yet they are not like the vnfaithful which coÌ„tinue in the same but they get the vpper hande they striue by prayer by
able to discerne all lieth in this point the doctrine is of God not of men and therefore those doe feele it and iudge rightly whether they be learned or vnlearned whom God doth inwardly teach with his spirite for this cause S. Paule 1 Cor. 14. doth shewe that the worde of God is so to be layde open in the congregation that if there come in a man vnlearned or an infidell hee may be reproued iudged the secrets of his hearte made manifest For if the word be not preached vnto the consciences of men it goeth away like a dead sound But we goe into many matters I haue not forgotten your former wordes but perhaps yee would bee loth to come to that againe Ath. I am not ashamed of any thing which I said and I hope I neede not Zelot No your wares are so fine ye neede not care who viewe them you loue God aboue all and with all your heart Ath. That I doe or els I were a beast I woulde hee were hanged whiche doeth not that Zelot Yee loue your neighbour as your selfe Ath. If I doe not I pray GOD forgiue mée I am sure no man can accuse mée Zelot Then you looke by this meanes to come to heauen Ath. I hope if there be but thrée in all this country goe to heauen I shall bée one of them I meane so well Zelot Ye know the commandements of God and fulfil them also do ye not Ath. I thanke God I knowe them and will fulfill them as nigh as God shall giue me grace Zelot Doe ye breake none of them Ath. Wée breake them all of vs dayly horuely for there is no man which can kéepe them all Zelot You breake some of them and keepe other some Ye keepe the greatest doe ye not and breake the least Ath. I kéepe the greatest and therefore I hope God will beare with mée in the rest Zelot Which doe ye take for to be the greatest that ye are so cleere in Ath. I am no théefe nor murtherer nor traitour I pay euerye man his owne I thinke this is Gods bidding Zelot Are there no greater then these Ath. I take him for an honest man which doth kéepe these and he that doeth not I defie him Zelot Euen so wil I take you to be when I knowe that you doe keepe them But I maruell yee are so bolde for to bid defiance to so many Ath. Doe not you desâ—e them al and all other euil doers Zelot If I should do so you and I shoulde be together by the eares by and by Ath. Then belike yée countâ—â—ee to bee such an one yée ought not to iudge Zelot A man may knowe the tree by the fruites but let this passe I pray ye tell me is not he which hath moe Gods then one as euill as a murtherer Ath. I take him to bée woorse Zelot Then the first commaundement is greater then those which you named Ath. If a man thinke there is any God but one he is very farre wide Zelot You haue none other Gods but one then Ath. It were pitie of my life if I shoulde not bee of that beliefe If all the commaundementes were as easie to bee kept as this we should doe well Zelot Then yee neuer brake the first Commaundement Ath. Neuer in all my lyfe neither shal euer any make me to bée but of Gods beliefe for they which beléeue there bee many Gods are not of a right minde Zelot Can you then keepe the greater and noâ— the lesse I doe noâ— doubte but if a man can keepe the first hee can keepe all for the first is as hard as any of the rest although such skilfull Clearkes as you count it to bee very easie Ath. Then it were an easie matter to kéepe them Zelot What if I proue vnto yee that you breake it will you confesse your follie Ath. I will neuer bée made beléeue that which I know is contrary Zelot â—eâ— me aske ye this question whether that man doth keepe this Commandement which thinketh there is but one God and yet giueth that honour and worship vnto other thinges which he should giue vnto him alone Ath. I did neuer put any trust in images nor I neuer thought they coulde doe mée any good Zelot I do not speake of that outward giuing away of Gods worship but of an other which is inward in the minde Ath. I haue alwayes had God in my minde and I trust I haue neuer woorshipped any besides him Zelot Is not that a mans God which hee loueth best which hee doeth most delight in Ath. Looke what a man loueth best and taketh most delight in I thinke hee maketh y â— his god because we ought to loue god best Zelot Doe yee not thinke that the thing which a man most setteth his minde vpon most seeketh after is that which he most loueth Ath. I suppose euery man looketh after that which he most loueth Zelot Then he which seeketh the world more then God loueth the world more then God and therefore in very deede maketh the world his God Ath. God forbid that any man shoulde make more account of this worlde then of God I hope fewe doe so Zelot You hope fewe doe so but a man may easilie proue that youe doe so and I am sure the most doe so Ath. I trust yée shall hardly prooue it by mée although yée iudge so euill of mée Zelot Can a man seeke after God or set his delight vpon God anie other waie then by seeking after the knowledge and obedience of Gods will which he hath reuealed in his word or can a man loue God and not loue his worde Ath. Gods word is good wee must loue that al of vs be ruled by it for it doth tell vs nothing but that which is good Zelot How slilie you wind out of the matter I aske one thing which yee doe not aunsweare and that is whether a man can seeke God and not seeke him in his worde Ath. Euery man cannot bee a Diuine wée that bee vnlearned men are not for to meddle with so high matters Zelot Now ye speake in your kinde we be unlearned men we haue nought to doe with God we may not meddle with him Ath. You take all thinges wrong yée doe not heare the say so Zelot Doe I take yee wrong doe ye not say so tell me is not God as high a matter as his word Ath. God is aboue all Zelot Can we haue to doe with God to serue him any way but by his worde Ath. The worde of GOD doeth tell by what wée are to doe Zelot Then it followeth when yee saye wee may not meddle with so high matters that yee were euen as good for to say wee haue nought to doe with GOD. Wee owe him no duetie of obedience we need not care to know his will because he is as high a matter as his word Ath. You put in a greate deale more then I sayde and take mee
Ath. There bee a number goe so farre they cannot tell what they may doe they will not doe as their honest neighbours doe they wilbe wiser then their betters what shoulde they meddle with Gods woorde it maketh â—hembusie in checking euery man It was neuer merry since men vnlearned haue medled with the scriptures Zelot I maruell how far you would go if a man shoulde followe ye yee are like a puddle which the more a man stirreth it the more filthie mud ariseth yee are like a sinke where the more a man stirreth the more is the stink Ath. What meane ye by that Zelot I mean that your heart is full of foule slinking rotten matter which floweth out at your mouth I confesse that those men bee not to be allowed which meddle with that which they should not but I know whom you meane when ye say they goe so farr that they know not what they may doe ye speake of them which seek to know GOD whom ye thinke to be halfe madde Ath. There be some of them which are not book learned what should they doe otherwise then their fathers before them I knew some of their fathers honest men and neuer troubled themselues that way Zelot I did know your mind wel enough for al your spite is against those which learne out of Gods word to know their duety towards the lord because as S. Pet. saith 1. Pe. 4. they do not run with ye to the same exces of riot ye think it strange blasphemy Agayn ye cannot abide to be admonished when ye commit any naughty thing Ye know not that God hath appoynted his word for all sortes of meÌ„ to be instructed in it throughly for the holy Apostles exhort euery where vnto great knowledge in the worde Againe ye know not that which the Lorde coÌ„mandeth in sundrie places that we should admonishe and reprooue one another if any do amisse not as you blind obstinate men which when a man doeth after a godlie manner admonish yee hee is by and by a busie medler what hath he to doe he shall not answere for you And because yee may not doe what lewdnes yee list vncontrolled yee say it was neuer merry since euery man might read the scriptures It is maruellous that men should so become beastes without all vnderstanding Ath. It would not gréeue me to bée reprooued by those which are learned but now euery Iacke wilbe medling Zelot If you be reproued iustly by Gods worde then is it God which doth reproue ye are not to looke vppon the man But when ye call them Iackes and giue them other reproches it is because yee are blinde and can discerne nothing but that whiche is of this worlde For if yee could see how great glorie the poorest true Christian is called vnto to be the child of God yee woulde not reuile those whom God honoureth Ath. They will be medling in smal matters if it were for great saults it were somewhat but a man may not be merrie nowe Zelot Beeyng vtterly blinde and voide of grace yee count those sinnes which are foule and grosse for to bee small swearing rayling talking in your filthie ribaldty singing sowle and beastly songes these and such like are your pety faultes this is your myâ—th whâ—â—n must not bee hindered For it is death to yee to haue any godlinesse spoken of if it be ye cannot bee merry This dunghill mirth is that which men complaine of to be molested and say it was happie in olde time when men were not reproued for such things now there be so many scripture men that a man cannot tell what to say or what to doe Ath. There are none of yée all as holie as yée woulde séeme for to be but haue faultes yée sée not your owne but other mens Zelot Hee which doeth not repente and correct his own vitious nature and striue to obey God is no good reproouer of others But when yee say men seeme to be holy and giue it as a matter of reproch therein yee goe almost beyond the Diuell himselfe for you see that I gainesaie yee or els yee woulde not inure it but yee would euen Powre out your stinking rotten poyson like blasphemous and venemous beastes ye would speake after this manner you that are so full of the spirite you that are Saintes and such like What are you diuelles are yee of the flesh no doubt yee are vntil God conuert ye But we may see how diuelishly men are become wicked when a man cannot make any appearance to be godly and holy but it is reproched as though it were a shameful thing to be led by the spirite For otherwise why do they so obiecte an honest thing to liue after the fleshe a shamefull matter to be guided by the spirite Ath. God helpe vs if none be good but such I hope honest and quiet men shalbe saued as well as they although they cannot talke so well nor runne not to heare Sermons Zelot Nay you would haue others in berter case then they for you iudge them that are zealous in the Gospel and woulde fainest of all other please God to be the worst men and the more carefull a man is to be holy to the Lorde the more he is disdayned and misliked Which doeth euidently shewe that such as you are led by the spirite of the Diuell Yee leade me so from one matter to another that wee are gone from something which ye vttered I remember yee saide yee put your whole trust in God Ath. I sayd so so I say still though I haue no learning yet I trust I beleeue as well as any scripture man of them all Zelot Yee bragge very boldly I pray ye tell me this are yee sure ye shalbe saued Ath. No nor you neyther nor the best of yee all wee muste commit that too God Zelot What is it that yee put all your whole trust in him for Is it not this that GOD hath promised vnto yee eternal life and that yée beleeue he wil performe his promise Ath. That hee doeth loue me and giueth me all thinges Zelot Are yee not sure that hee doth loue yee Ath. I hope he doth loue me but I am not sure Zelot Doeth not the scripture saye that whosoeuer doth trust in him shalbe saued Ath. God sayth so indeede and I beleeue it is so Zelot You knowe doe yee not that yee put your whole trust and beliefe in him Ath. I knowe I doe and I hope I shall alwayes doe Zelot If God can not lie when hee saith all that trust in him shall bee saued and you knowe that yee put your whole trust in him Wherefore doe yee not then knowe that yee shalbe saued Ath. That which God sayth is true for he cannot lie I put my trust in none but in him I hope to be saued what would yée haue more I will beléeue neuer a one of them all when they say they know they shalbe saued I thinke they woulde
for those English Doctors whiche can alleadge no more but out of Paul and Peter Zelot It would bee a notable learned Sermon then if the Preacher shoulde speakâ— all latine Ath. Then wee whiche doe not vnderstande latine shoulde bee neuer the better Zelot If so little coulde pleasure you then no doubt a whole sermon would edifie yee much But such vayne men as you doe shew your vanitie when ye looke more after those thinges which should feede your eares then for to haue your soules conuerted Is that to be vsed which cannot edifie at all but serueth for a vaine shewe and disturbeth the minde and memorie of the diligent hearer But let this goe and let vs see the other for alleadging of writers in this matter yee haue sundrie graue men of your side which count those Sermons learned which are set foorth with all sortes of authorities and those which bring the bare worde out of the Bible they make but verball Sermons But doubtlesse they may shewe some grauitie in their beard for there is none in the matter Ath. Are they not thereby knowne for to be learned men euerye Plowe man nowe a dayes can alleadge out of Saint Paul Zelot They are thereby knowne for to bee vnskilfull men and such as are not rightly instructed in the doctrine of S. Paule They make a great shew of learning and yet want the knowledge of the dignitie of gods word When as they bring in the sayings of Plato and Aristotle as fellowes and companions with the oracles of God vttered by his Prophetes and Apostles and as though there were greater and deeper matter in those then in the Bible whereas all the heauenly mysteries and counsels of God are vttered they sticke not to count that vnlearned whiche is brought from thence and greate learning to bee in the sayinges of the other For this cause they doe also seeke for to gaâ—â—ish their sermons and as it were for to set them with pearle when as in effect they doe nothing else but as if a man shoulde mingle leade with pure golde and claye with precious oyle And because yee speake or learning tell me what ye thinke whether Saint Augustine or Saint Paule was the better learned Ath. You shoulde aske that question of such as are learned would yâ—e haue mâ—e tell yâ—e Zelot Is not hee which doth alleadge sentences out of Augustine Ambrose Hierome and Cyprian better learned then they which alleadge out of Moses Esay Peter Paule or Iohn Ath. I tolde ye before that euery man can alleadge out of these if I coulde ceade and had a Bible I coulde doe it also but to alleadge out of the other none can doe that but such as are great Clearkes Zelot Then it seemeth that they were better then Paul and Peter or Moses or els why should they be estemed to be better learned which do cite them Ath. If I might shoote my bolt I thinke they were the lâ—arnâ—der because their writings are so proâ—ounâ—e Zelot I woulde you did thinke so alone but in deede the people haue been so deluded with suche as would make a shew of learning that multitudes are of your mynde which bringeth in a vile and shamefull abasing of the most holy and sacred Bible But let me aske yee certayne questions Doe yee not thinke that if the writinges of those men were to be redde in our tongue that euerie man then coulde bee able to alleadge out of them as they doe out of the Byble Ath. I thinke they might then bee able Zelot Doe yee suppose those shoulde by and by be esteemed for to be learned whiche doe then alleadge sayinges out of them Ath. I sâ—e no cause why then they should not be counted so Zelot Is hee learned in the Bible which can alleadge many sentences Ath. A man may speake muche know little Zelot You might see likewise that men may alleadge sayinges out of great Doctors and yet themselues be great Dawes for hee is learned whom God doth teache for to vnderstande the heauenly mysteries vttered by the Prophetes and Apostles and in vttering them doeth followe the steppes of Paule and the rest The Doctours had all their true learning out of the Bible for in it is seâ—â—e foorth that wisedome whiche is aboue all Ath. The Scriptures are darke hard andâ— therefore men nowe doe not vnderstande them as the Doctors did And for this cause I haue heard preachers saye they are to be vouched Zelot Those Preachers might haue bin wiser then for to maintayne two so grosse opinions The first accusing the Scriptures of such darkenesse as though they coulde not bâ—e vnderstoode whereas in deede the principall and most necessarie poyntes the Lorde hath spoken so clearely that verye simple men maye bee taught for to see the plaine euidence of the worde The other depriueth the Churche of the true interpreter of the worde which is the spirite of God as though the Lord did not now giue such gifts as hee gaue to those Doctors which is a popish opinion also for so long as God giueth his worde to the Churche so long he giueth the interpreter of the same although not in all ages alike but whosoeuer is not blynde may easily see that in this age there bee as great giftes bestowed vppon the Church as euer were in any since the time of the Apostles Ath. Then you are one of those whiche deface the olde Fathers when yee will not allowe them for to 〈…〉 the Sermons To what vse then shoulde â—â—â— reade them Zelot That is a verye false accusation shoulde a man bee accused for deâ—â—â—ing the honour of the Lord Chauncellour because hee would denie him the dignitie and honor of the prince Likewise shall a man bee say de for to iniuâ—ie or deface the Doctors because hee will not giue them the dignitie whiche doeth belong vnto God alone The preacher is the mouth of God vnto the people and not the mouth of men hee is not for to vtter doubtfull matter and vncertayâ—e but suche as may be most euident He must say and proue euen vnto the conscience of the hearer thus God speaketh and thus hee meaneth Hee can not say Augustine saith it therefore God saieth it Augustine sayeth it therefore it is vndoubtedly true for Augustine might and did erre many wayes But hee may saie Saint Paule saith it therefore GOD him selfe saith it S. Paule saith therefore it is vndoubtedly true for looke what he saith or any other Apostle Euangelist or Prophete God hath set it downe by them it is his and not theirs they are but the instrumentes which he vsed for to vtter and penne his will his spirite in them ruled the whole in this case so that they did not nor coulde not erre nowe when the preacher doth laye open their saying not he nor they but GOD speaketh as they were the mouth of God for to set it downe so is hee nowe againe the mouth of God for to recite and declare it Ath.
The worde of God is certaine and sure because God cannot lie but howe shall I â—â—â—we which is their â—â— sense of it â— shall I beleeue euerie man which doth interprer the worde shall I not the better beleeue 〈…〉 if he say it is not my interpretation but S. Ierome he saith so S. Augustine hee sayth so I promise yée he shall haue the greater credite with me for they were other maner of men then hée Zelot I cannot but â—â—ruell to see howe grosse and dull your head is for to learne the trueth and how readily you can bring out such matters as this ye speake not of your owne head I woulde there were no greater learned men then you blinded in this matter But let mee shewe yee your grosse errour Yee say the word is certaine and sure but the interpretation thereof yee make doubtfull but what are we the better that the worde of God is sure and certaine vnlesse it be sure certaine vnto vs which cannot bee except the interpretation be so It is as good for you to say the word is doubtfull as for to say the sense is doubtfull Nowe when as yee hang the sense vppon men can ye denie but that still it is in doubt This must needes arise in the minde those Doctors said so but they might erre and therefore I am not certaine that this is the sense If this shall bee admitted in the Church what shall become of that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or full certaintie of fayth which the woorde of GOD doeth require to be in vs it is grounded vpon the word of God for it cannot stande otherwise Moreouer faith is sure what God meaneth or else it is no faith therefore such as woulde hang mens saith vppon the authoritye of men where they must needes still be in doubt and when they are at the furthest they come but vnto this it is 〈…〉 like for to be true because such notable men speake it doe not know a right what faith is for that yee say he shall haue the more credite with you if he say It is not my saying but the saying of Augustine therein ye were euen as good say that your fayth is built vpon men and not vpon God For if ye doe beleeue because some great learned or Godlie man telleth yee the matter this is no true beleefe for wee must bee fully perswaded that God him selfe doeth tell vs or els wee be neuer the neere Ath. Howe shall I know when GOD speaketh â—â— which God speaketh you come and preach one way another commeth and hee doeth proache another way yee preache one contrary to another you say God speaketh hee saith God speaketh whiche shall wee beleeue Is not â—ee to â—eâ— best beléeued which can shew that those greate doctors are on his side Zelot See what a grounde you leaue vnto you know not when GOD speaketh not what God speaketh and therefore yee will haue some of the olde Doctors for to tell are yee sure hee telleth yee right if ye be it is because hee sheweth ye the worde of God why he telleth yee so the credite must bee giuen vnto the word and not to the man But you saie yee can not tell when one doeth alleadge the worde in the true meaning howe then can ye tell when one alleadgeth the doctor in the true meaning he which will falsifie the word of God in the Bible he will not sticke for to falsifie the meaning of the Doctor you may search the scriptures to see whether the testimonies alleadged be so as the men of Berea did when Paule preached Act. 17. 11. You cannot neither are yee commaunded for to searche the doctors And vnlesse yee see the manifest 〈…〉 of gods worde ye are not bounde for to beleeue but if it be plainlie shewed that God hath spoken then yee are bounde vnder the 〈…〉 of damnation for to giue credite vnto it Christe sayth My sheepe heare my voyce a straunger they will not heare Iohn 10. Also S. Iohn saith brethren beleeue not euerie spirite but trie the spirites whether they be of God 1. Iohn 4. he therefore which saith I cannot tell when the voyce of Christ is vttered it is all one as if he should say I am none of the sheepe of Christ because as he saith Euery one of his sheepe do knowe his voyce He that saith I know not which Preacher doth preach truth and which falshood he may euen as well say I am none of those to whome the holy Ghost speaketh and sayth Try the spirites whether they be of God it is a generall precept giuen vnto all Christians Ath. Ye shall neuer make mee beleeue that euerye man is for to iudge whether the Preacher speake true or false Zelot I know not what I shall be able for to make you beleeue but I am sure I can plainely shewe what yee ought to beleeue First marke this the worde came not from man neither can a man teache it ye vnlesse God reueale it by his spirite if it were the wisedome of the worlde or of the flesh then the spirit of the world which is in man and knoweth the secretes of man could teache it but because it is the mysterie of GOD none can make yee learne it but the holy Ghoste which searcheth euen the deepe things of God as S. Paul teacheth 1. Cor. 2. 10 S. Iohn in his first Epistle Chap. the seconde hauing told them that there were euen then many Antichrists he comforteth them with this You saith he haue receiued an annointing from the holy one know all things Like as therefore none of those can learne whoÌ„ God doth not inlighten with his spirite so on the coÌ„trary part all those which are taught within by the spirit doe feele when the doctrine which the same spirit hath taught is vttered he knoweth his owne and he sealeth it vp in their hearts and consciences which being instructed by him must needes consent thereto fully For this cause there is great difference betweene such as set all vpon the authorities of men and such as preach as S. Paul saith he did with the plaine euidence of the spirit and of power 1. Cor. 2. 4. he addeth the reason in the next verse that their faith should not coÌ„sist in the wisedome of men but in the power of God If faith may not hang vpon the wisdome of men and therefore the intising speech which mans wisedome teacheth is to be auoided in setting foorth the Gospell then can it not stand vpon the authorities of men Ath. Is it not lawfull in any respect for to alleadge them Zelot Yes no doubt there are circumstances which may make it sometime very needfull I speake only against this that they are alleaged when as we may alledge the same things out of the worde it selfe And when they are alleadged for men to builde their faith vpon or to make men thinke that there can be no certaintie in the interpretation of the worde
is and try whether yee can repent nowe it ye cannot what moueth yee to thinke that yee shalt be able then Ath. I hope I doe repent now and shal doe at the ende Zelot Repentance is a returning home vnto God from all euill vices and corrupte desires which are in the flesh and in the heart To be renued by repentaunce cannot be but where a man is renued in knowledge for that is one part of the image of GOD which must be restored in vs Reade in the 4. Chapter to the Ephe. from the 17. verse forwarde If a man continue in darkenesse he doth not repent He which committeth his foule sinns still although it bee but in the desire of his heart hath not repented He which doth not feele sorrowe and griefe and hath not a broken and contrite heart and a sorowfull spirite hath not repented hee which doth not eschue euill and doe good hath not repented All these are taught by the worde for that is it by whiche wee must clense our wayes and therefore yee may boldly say that he which learneth not out of Gods woorde to repent cannot repent for although if it were possible hee coulde repent for all other sinnes yet this one sinne to set light by the instruction of the Gospell will make still worse then they of Sodome as our Sauiour doth tell vs Math. 11. Ath. Will you condemne those whiche call for mercy at their ende whiche neuer repented before Zelot Wee may not pronounce vppon any one man because GOD onely seeth what is in man But yet wee may boldely goe so farre as the worde of God doeth leade vs and by it wee may see what GOD requireth and what God doeth condemne We may see that the common and generall repentaunce which all professe at their ende is not so muche as a shadowe of true repentaunce repentance cannot be in a man especially vppon a sodaine but he must needes feele a wonderfull chaunge in hym selfe he must needes bee able for to say I haue repented I knowe and feele that I am a newe man and therefore because I knowe most certainely that there is repentaunce in mee I knowe most certainely that I shall be saued for GOD promiseth saluation vnto euerye one whiche doeth repent In the common repentance men feele no such thing But are stil as they may be well enough in doubt of saluation Ath. Shall not all such as call vppon God be heard surely I dare not but thinke they shall Zelot I am sure because the Lorde doth speake it That whosoeuer doth call vppon him shall bee saued But yet yee must put this in that then they must pray in fayth as for the prayers of a wicked man which doth not repent and therefore hath not the true faith they are no prayers before GOD although hee crie lowde or call neuer so often for vnto such the Lorde speaketh in the first Chapter of the Prophete Isaiath When yee stretch forth your handes I will turne away mine eyes from yee Also if yee multiplie your prayer I will not heare Likewise the holy Ghost saieth by Solomon in the Prouerbes that the sacrifice of the wicked is an abhomination And in the same booke it is said He that turneth away his eare from hearing the lawe euen his prayer shall bee abhominable and therefore in the latter ende of the fourth Chapter of Ecclesiastes he aduiseth men when they come into the house of GOD to take heed to their feâ—ete and to bee readier to heare then to offer the sacrifice of fooles For saith he they knowe not that they do euill Nowe ye shall finde many mâ—n â—rye in their miseries and make great confession of their vngodly life but yet without true repentaunce as it is manifest for so soone as the prosper againe yee shall see them returne to their olde by as if they had truely repented then shoulde it euer continue with them manie that liue in malice so soone as they be daungerously sicke will be readie to aske forgiuenesse and to forgiue all the worlde They knowe it booteth not to beare malice anie longer but so long as they be able to craulle out of their bedde and to stande vppon their legges yee shall see their olde withered malice as it seemed spring a fresh againe which is a strong proofe that they neuer truely repented howsoeuer they thought they did And euen so is it in all other sinnes they seeme vnto men for to repent they aske GOD forgiuenesse but yet the hearte abideth still the same that it was before God there is no chaunge in them before God they haue not put of the sinnefull bodie of the fleshe there is no chaunge in them before God howesoeuer they seeme to be chaunged before men This counterfet repentance maketh men bolde all their life to despise the holy worde of God which shoulde instruct and guide them it causeth them at their ende not to feare the wrath of God noâ— the vengeance to come because they thinke GOD is satisfied with this repentaunce and also because they knowe not their sinnes they suppose that they are but ouer the shoes when as they are drowned in the goulfe of vncleannesse ouer heade and â—ares Ath. God helpe vs if it bée thus how shall poore men doe then Zelot Men must applie them selues all their life to seeke for the knoweledge of GOD to increase in saith and repentaunce that when they come to their ende they may haue a testimonie of conscience that they haue feared God Likewise when yee come to a sicke man and aske howe hee doeth if he can but say as it pleaseth GOD yee aunswere that is enough neighbour holde yee there If he say I haue offended GOD and I praye GOD haue mercie vppon mee there needeth no more as you thinke Yee shoulde teache them the Lawe that they may see howe they haue offended God yee shoulde shewe them the fearefull curse and horrible â—â—â—â—geaâ—â—â—â— due vnto sinne that so they may 〈…〉 ken with remoâ—â—e and sorrowe yee shoulde shewe them also the glad tidings of the Gospell and what Christe offereth vnto the penitent sinner yee shoulde teache them what holines GOD requireth at their hande howe they may come vnto it what promise they haue made vnto GOD of it in baptisme Yee shoulde instruct them in all the principall pointes of the fayth That so they may haue the renewing faith which shal iustifie and saue them Ath. What difference can you shewe betweene those whiche are taught as you woulde haue them and such as haue knowledge they can no more but repent call for mercie and beleeue And this doe they aswell as the other Zelot You thinke there is no difference but there is this difference that the one part doeth beleeue and repent in deede and the other but in woord as our Sauiour Christ Matth. 15. alleadgeth the saying of God by his Prophete This people drawe neere mee with their mouth and honour me with their lippes but
their heart is farre from mee Ath. That is meant when a man doth speake with his mouth and meaneth not with his heart but these haue a good meaning in their minde Zelot It is meant when a man approcheth with his mouth and hath still a wicked heart and an euill conscience for those do remooue a man so farre from God that no blind intent can make him neere vnto him God looketh for great things in the heartes of those which call vpon him Ath. I thinke God accepteth the prayer of the honest poore man as well as of any other and will heare him as soone as hee will heare the prayer of those which knowe most and are the best learned Zelot God is no accepter of persons hee heareth the poore as well as the riche the vnlearned as well as the learned so that their prayers bee made aright But if yee speake of those honest men which are so called yet are voide of all knowledge of Gods woorde and of religion it is an easie matter for to prooue that their prayers are not good Ath. Can yee haue anye better prayer then the Lordes prayer when they praye that can ye require more Zelot There can be no better prayer then the Lordes prayer and he which prayeth that right must needes bee saued But let mee aske you this question what if a man pray the Lordes prayer with his mouth and regardeth it not in his heart shal his praier be good Ath. His prayer cannot be good he doth but mocke God Zelot Then tell me this a man prayeth thus hallowed be thy name in worde he seemeth to desire that the name of God may be sanctified and honoured he goeth his way and blasphemeth the name of GOD or heareth it blasphemed and neuer careth rayleth vpon his worde dishonoureth him doe yee not thinke that hee made a sweete preyer In the like maner he saith thy will bee done in earth as it is in heauen he goeth away and is so farre from desiring to do the will of God that hee neuer careth for to knowe it Whereby it is euident that he little ment with his heart that which he said with his tongue Moreouer hee would seeme in woordes to craue of God that hee and others might doe the will of God in earth as the Angels doe in heauen and yet tell him when hee breaketh the will of God and his aunswere is I am not so precise I am not so curious I will not bee so holy you are full of the spirite and then hee will euen reproche that which he seemed for to pray for And these are the prayers of those poore honest men which you thinke God heareth as well as the prayers of any other I might goe thorough all the petitions and finde the like It is exceeding great pitie that men want instruction for a great multitude doe trust to their pratling prayers when as they doe not either vnderstand what they lay or els meane the contrary Ath. If a man labour all the wéeke truely and honestly and vppon the Sabboth day come to the Churche and make his prayers shall wée say God regarded not his prayer because hée doeth not vnderstande what he prayeth his intent is good hee doth his good will hee hath a wife and children to prouide for hee must followe the worlde and let preaching goe or else hee shall begge and so longe as hee doth hurte no man but dealeth vprightly I thinke God doeth require no more at his handes Such as haue naught else for to doe let them séeke for knowledge Zelot Yee are like vnto a hedge which is full of bryers and pricking thornes a man cannot lay holde on yee vnlesse yee bring his hedging gloues and his bill Yee haue many thinges to shroude your selfe vnder and to keepe the truth from touching of ye as the Lorde in his worde hath set foorth the whole armour for a Christian souldier so likewise Satan doth by suggestion teache men to arme themselues against the Lorde But ye must be stript of your armour at the least ye must be shewed that it is no armour of proofe Ye say that if a man labour trulye honestly all the weeke those labour so which do it not alone for necessitie but because God requireth that men should painfully trauell and which haue the woord of God as a lanterne for to guide their steppes for what soeuer a man doth if it bee not in obedience of God in his worde it is sinne To pray vpon the Sabboth for fashion sake is very detestable because we are in continuall danger and in continuall neede and want helpe continually from the Lorde vppon whome our saluation doeth dayly depende we are commaunded to pray continually or to haue our heartes watching thereunto To pray without vnderstanding is not praying but mumming You speake as though it were a thing which God doth allowe that men should seeke more after the world them after God so make the world their God And because they haue wife and children to prouide for therfore they cannot seeke to know God As though we were not commanded to seeke first the kingdome of God that is to seeke that chiefly and more then the worlde and then GOD hath promised that all these things shall be cast vpon vs. Howe shall any man be excused when God maketh this promise vnto all as he doth perfourme it vnto as many as doe trust him I haue been young saith the Prophet and nowe am old yet did I neuer see the righteous forsakē and his feede begging their bread When ye say hee must follow the worlde and let preaching goe ye were euen as good say hee must follow the Deuill and let God go And if an ignorant man coulde come so farre as to deale vp rightly and to hurt no man neither in woorde nor neede which notwithstanding they come nothing neere yet this woulde not serue the turne for there is a God who will be knowne and woorshipped in that religion which he teacheth Haue ye so fleshly eyes that ye can looke no higher Doe ye thinke God requireth no more but an honest and ciuill conuersation towardes men God requireth euen of the poore labouring man that he should if he will be blessed meditate in his Law or his doctrine day and night Psalme 1. Likewise when he saith that the man is blessed which feareth the Lord to the ende we might know which that man is he addeth immediatly he hath great delight in his commaundements But the most part of your honest men nowe a dayes delight so much in the word of God and meditate so much in it that they care not a button though they neuer heare it they loue it and set as much by it as they doe by an old shoe And are not so forwarde as you doe allowe to seeke for the knowledge of God when they haue naught els for to doe for you thinke yee graunt a liberall allowance to God