séeme to be yet God will refuse to acknowledge ye for his seruants because ye refuse his ordinances and deuise toyes of your owne which ye thrust vpon him and as it were force him to accept them If ye did meane well ye would doe better your deuotion is diuellish obstinacie your méekenes is haughtinesse in despising God You haue forgottē what the Lord saith In vaine doe they worship me Esay 29. Matth. 15. teaching for doctrines the precepts of men Pa. VVhere learne you to giue such rayling sentence against the deuotion of holy men and to iudge Ye boast of the Gospell ye haue nothing els in your mouth and yet the Gospell willeth ye not for to iudge This doth declare what spirit ye are led with Pro. If your Romish rowte were holy deuoute men then no doubt wee should be found to giue rayling sentence and if the holy scriptures did not warrant vs so to speake of those which are open enemies to GOD then wée might iustly be blamed or if wee should enter so far as to iudge of the secrets of mens harts not where the word of God doth pronounce the iudgement then were wee to be condemned but séeing the word doth teach that which we vtter wee neither giue rayling sentence neither doe wee iudge otherwise then to pronounce out of Gods trueth what is holy and what is wicked and abominable Pa. Proue those things which you haue said out of the word as that good intents are not pleasing to God that when men are deuout and take paines to serue God it is diuelish and other such like and I wil be your bondman while I liue Pro. Good intents doe please God God doth require that men should be deuoute and take paines to serue him and vnlesse these things bee in them they are not his seruants But yours are no good intents but phantasies of your owne braine for they procéede not of faith because they bee not ordered by Gods word Rom. 14. but against the word and whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne Your worship being not framed after the will of God but procéeding from your owne liking is no more but blinde deuotion when ye haue taken all the paines ye can and haue wearied your selues this shall bee your reward Esay 1. Who required these things at your hands Who did set ye a worke and appoynt ye this seruice As concerning such kinde of worship as yours the Apostle doth call it will-worship for when he hath spoken of commandements and doctrines of men he addeth thus Colos 2. Which things haue a shew of wisedome in voluntarie worship and humblenesse of minde and not sparing the bodie which things are of no estimation séeing they pertaine to the filling of the flesh This place of Saint Paul well obserued doth fully and cléerely without any exposition quite ouerthrow all your Popish religion For he sheweth that before GOD all such trash is of no estimation Againe his description doth so fitly paynt out Poperie and that which you bragge of as nothing can bee more apt Marke well euery branch and member of his words and ye will confesse the same He demaundeth of the Colossians how it commeth to passe that if they be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world that they bee burdened with traditions Colos 1. as touch not taste not c. Which things perish in their vse and therefore this conclusion is to bée drawne out that the eternall and spirituall kingdome of GOD doth not consist in such things For how should the kingdome of God consist in those things which perish Pa. Ye would make somewhat of nothing that place of S. Paul is not against vs. If yee haue none other ye cannot ouerthrow our religion Pro. Ye doe interrupt me in the middest of my matter onely to cauill because ye are loth to haue this place of scripture touched seeing it doth so fully open and display your wardes Because ye say it maketh not against ye and would faine passe from it I will leade ye to it by the eares Doth not your religion stand in outward things which perish in their vse Are not your traditions the commandements and doctrines of men Let all the world iudge of that And Saint Paul doth make that a sufficient reason to ouerthrow any thing whatsoeuer in the seruice of God If it bee of man the holy Ghost would haue vs make no further inquisition but to take it for dung and draugh how goodly soeuer it séeme and glister as gold Esay 29. Matth. 15. Doth not the Lord also say In vaine doe they worship me teaching for doctrines the precepts of men Well to goe forward these deuises of yours are marueilously well liked and the people of the world are made very deuoute towards God by them indéede the people of the world doe like well such religion and it carrieth them to a kinde of deuotion to estéeme such matters to haue great wisedome in them Therefore the Apostle doth say that those inuentions of men haue a shew of wisedome and the people vse to say I warrant ye our fathers which deuised these things were wise men But marke well the causes which the Lord doth set downe why these things séeme to haue such wisedome and why they be so well liked of The first cause is that it is a voluntary religion a religion which being framed by the corrupt will and braine of men is very well pleasing to the deuisers and doth also fit other men whose wil and braine is as corrupt as theirs For as that which procéedeth from the will of God is contrary to the wisedome of flesh and therefore misliked and condemned of folly so that which commeth out of mans will is agréeable to man and therefore approued and commended as the onely wisedome Thus may we sée when the Apostle saith such things haue a shew of wisedome in voluntary religion how it commeth to passe that the worship which is set by the policie and inuention of men is better accepted of then that which procéedeth from the will of God Pa. Ye haue enough of that place vnlesse ye would expound it more truly there are manie scriptures which make for your purpose if ye may haue this scope to take them as ye lust Leaue off your vaine heape of words with which ye goe about to bleare mens eyes and to draw and wrest the Scriptures to your owne sense It were much better for ye to meddle lesse Pro. All men may easily see that this place of Scripture doth bite ye to the bone no marueile therefore though ye haue enough of it for lesse would better content ye There are many Scriptures indéede which make for our purpose without any wresting at all Euen as this one place of Saint Paul which we be in hande with néedeth no wresting to make it speake against you when as euery blind man which cannot sée may yet by groping féele the
5. but sinners to repentance You say sinfull mē are permitted to deale with the scriptures we answere the more sinful the greater néed they haue to know the scriptures because they must reforme them and cure them other meanes for the sinners there are none Psal 119. Wherewithall saith the Prophet shall a young man clense his waies euen by taking héed thereto according to thy word Ye reason euen as handsomly as if a man should count it vnméet for those to come to the water to wash them which are all myred or if a man should be out of his way in the darke let him haue no light because he is out of his way Matth. 12. O yee wicked Pharisies yée shut vp the kingdome of God before men yée neither enter your selues neither do ye suffer those which would Let thousand thousands and millians of thousands deale vndiscréetlie and wickedly with the word gather all kinde of diuelish errors out of it by peruerting it be puffed vp with their knowledge make but a pratling thereof yet this must not let but that if God had but ten chosen in the world his counsels must be opened vnto them Men abuse the word when they talke vnreuerently of it therefore you say it is to bee remoued théeues and quarrellers doe fight rob and kill with their weapons therefore the true men must cast them away Doe ye not know that we are commanded for to meditate and talk of the holy scriptures night and day but yet reuerently Is not the word of God called the sword of the spirit Ephes 6. with which wee must fight against the diuell Doth not Christ our captaine giue vs example Matth. 4. when he still alleageth the scriptures against him How childish are ye in alleadging this that Christ did speake in parables and said it was giuen to the disciples to knowe the mysteries of the kingdome of God but to the rest in parables that in seeing they might not see I pray ye were they the vnlearned only of whom he speaketh Were they not the great clarkes the Scribes and Pharisies which did see not perceiue heare and not vnderstand Yea it is to be vnderstood of all the reprobate both the learned and vnlearned As on the other side the mysteries of the kingdome of GOD are reueiled to simple ones Matth. 11. I thanke thée O father saith Christ Lord of heauen and earth that thou hast hid these things from the wise prudent and hast opened them vnto babes Doe ye not sée in the Gospell how our Sauiour Christ did publish the Gospell instruct the multitude Is it not testified that publicanes and sinners did imbrace the same whē the wise ones despised the counsel of God Doth not Christ tell thē that publicanes harlots should go before them into the kingdom of God Luke 7. Matth. 21. You say they went all one way when they knew not the scriptures Doubtles the heathen men went all one way but it was no good way for it was to destruction euen so as many as did not as S. Paul saith receiue the loue of the trueth that they might be saued 2. Thess ◠God did send thē strong delusiō to beléeue lies so they were damned These were not all our forefathers for God alwaies shewed his trueth to his seruants Ye say the people cannot vnderstand the scriptures whē as the learned doe not but are set one against an other one doth confute another ye should conclude of this that because learned men doe raise vp errors aswell as the vnlearned therefore the scriptures ought to be taken away frō them also and so ye should make sure worke Let God speake no more vnlesse he can do better let the Pope onely vtter his minde and heare him for he will tell a plaine tale Pa. This is euen like all your schismatikes and heretikes for all of ye doe allow errors quarrels and contentions Ye thinke it a small matter to haue the world filled and set vpon an vprore with them ye doe euen glorie in them as though there could be no trueth without them Oh say you it is a certaine and infallible proofe that ours is the true Gospell that so great troubles and sundrie sects do follow it Thus ye are not ashamed to confesse the euil fruits of your doctrine so that others need not to speake thereof Many other such like speeches ye vtter Pro. I am no liker those which imbrace the trueth then ye are like your father not the father of trueth but of lyes for let a man conuict ye a thousand times in your sayings yet ye will not sticke to lie and slaunder Where can ye euer shew that any true professor of the Gospell doth allow errors quarrels contentions Because we say that the scriptures must not bee taken from the people although neuer so many errors and schismes do follow can ye gather thereof that we allow the same no we detest and abhorre from the bottome of our hearts such trecherie of the diuell and his wicked instruments We count it a lamentable thing to see the malice of the diuell and of the wicked world to bee so great that so soone as euer Christ and his Gospell appeare they bend all their might against it seeking all meanes to quench the light thereof and vtterly to banish it From hence doe spring all vprores and tumults in the Church We affirme indéede that this is a proofe that it is the Gospell of Christ that the wicked world cannot abide it if it were of the world the world would loue his owne but because it is not of the world therefore the prince of the world with all the power and armies that hee can make doth rise vp against it for Satan will not bee dispossessed of his hold without great stur The strong man armed which kéepeth his house Matth. 12. must first be bound before his house cā be spoyled When there shall be no diuell no wicked ones no kingdome set vp against the kingdom of God whē Christ shall haue none enemies then the Gospell may come foorth in peace without troubles tumults sects errors and such like But so long as all those do remaine wherefore should the Gospell lose any glorie because these things follow it nay why shuld it not bee so much the more glorious that it doth breake through all these things and by it Christ doth rule in the midst of his enemies When the Prophet foretolde that the stone which the builders refused Psal 110. was become the head of the corner he addeth Psal 118. this is the Lords doing and it is marueilous in our eyes So this is the Lords doing and it is most marueilous in our eyes that so many cruell persecutions doe follow the Gospell and yet cannot banish it so many heapes or rather floods of monstrous errors do euen as it were flow ouer it to couer it to corrupt
most corrupt either in maners or withstanding the true Prophets yet they remayned still the Church and the seruice and worship in the Temple was not to be despised if any did they were apostats This ye confirme by such as Christ hauing cleansed he sendeth to offer to the priests then by a perpetual rule which Christ gaue dic ecclesiae tel the Church Hereupō ye cōclude again that we be heretikes because we haue forsakē the Church of Rome where ye tel vs that the abuses shold not driue vs to do so we must not forsake our mother for some deformity and want of beauty I wil answer ye that this argument may easily be denied when you say those which did forsake the worship in the Temple were Apostats therefore those which forsake the Church of Rome are heretickes and Apostats for to make this hold you must first proue that God hath tied his religion now to Rome as he had then to the Temple and that he hath chosen Rome as he then chose mount Sion which ye shall neuer be able to do because it is most false And then ye must proue that your worship which you maintaine is that which God hath commanded and then doubtlesse hee that shall depart from that is an heretike For if any did depart from worshipping in the Temple hee was not an apostat for departing from wicked Priests but for refusing that which God had appointed him to do We depart not but from a den of theeues and from an heape of damnable errors and not from that which God hath commanded so Christ sendeth the Leapers which he had clensed to fulfill the law of God commanded by Moses which was to be done to be done no where but in the Temple where the Priests bare the sway The other reason which ye bring as a perpetuall rule of Christ dic ecclesiae tell the Church is of no value for although the rule be perpetual doth it therfore follow that it can alwayes bee put in practise Hath Christ by that rule where he saith if thy brother offend against thee reproue him if that do not serue take one or two with thee if he will not heare them tell the Church c. set downe that there shall be euer a true and visible Church which will correct the offenders How say ye to the Church of Israel in the dayes of the Prophet Elias 1. King 19. when he complained to God that they had killed his Prophets digged downe his Altars and that he only was left they sought his life God made him answere that he had a Church among them I haue left vnto me seuen thousand in Israel c. which Elias did not sée Where was Dic ecclesiae now become Must they bring their Dic ecclesiae to those which are fallen away from God will excōmunicate the children of God Iohn 9. as the Pharisies did the blind man Did he euer come vnto them to be absolued When your diuellish sinagogue do excommunicate vs we be the nigher vnto Christ It is true which ye say that the true Church must not be forsaken for certaine abuses but if the abuses be such as vtterly destroy the faith as yours are then is it no longer the Church of Christ but a company of wicked hell hounds and therefore ye do but loose your labour when you exhort vs to rerurne to your Church which is no mother of ours but she is the whore of Babylon which hath filled the earth with her fornications There are none blessed vnlesse they depart from her her wayes are the wayes of damnation Reuel 18. come out of Babylon sayth the Angell of our God Pa. I could answer ye againe with words but so I should but spend time neither doe I like of long circumstances without matter which is the fashion of you heretikes when ye haue no sound reasons then to make a shew of speech and fall to rayling Pro. You cannot abide words without matter neither can your meeke spirite tell which way to fall to rayling but let any indifferent man reade ouer the bookes which your great Catholike Doctors set forth and he will confesse that in many words there will be found little matter Take away your vntruthes slaunders and spitefull raylings there will be but a little left behind If we speake of you that which the Scriptures pronounce against you by and by we rayle Did Iohn Baptist rayle when he called the Pharisies Math. 3. The generation of Vipers But seeing ye ione matter let vs see it to proue our doctrine to be new ye must bring stronger reasons then that the Church of Rome for certaine hundred yeares hath not allowed it there is no point of our faith but it is farre more auncient then your popish decrees your bauld and doltish shift to driue vs onely to your exposition of the Scriptures is not worth a straw Gods holy spirit hath bestowed great gifts vpon his Church in these last dayes Proceed with your matter Pa. Nay you shall not so slylie conuey your selfe ye make smal account of the interpretation of the Church of Rome which agreeth with all the holy Doctors and Teachers euen from the time of the Apostles Your exposition of the word began of late in Germany and therefore is not to be taken for Catholike Pro. Seeing ye must needes lie it is good to lie for somewhat all holy Doctors and Teachers from the Apostles are on your side this all doth signifie none For the very truth is as euery man that can reade their writings may see that they be except in a very few points all against ye sauing such holy diuels as within these latter times haue bene the Popes owne Doctors Our exposition is the same which the godly fathers before Antichrist had gotten the vpper seate in the Temple did vse therefore Catholike although your mother disallow it Pa. Nay heretickes be liers we say the truth when we do chalenge the auncient Doctors and Fathers to be on our side we succeede them we honour loue and commend them more then you we pray for their helpe you seeke to deface and pull downe all remembraunce of them let all the world be iudge whose side they are like to be of ours or yours when we haue them in so great and high estimation and you set so light by them Can we bee fallen from them as you say being so readie to doe them all the homage we can our hearts do witnesse that we do it in simplicity Moreouer all your matter is not worth a straw which ye haue brought out of the Church of the Iewes ye haue shewed that in Israel Elias could see no Church that in the Temple the Priests and false Prophets did conspire against the true messengers of the Lord. This were somewhat if you could shew it in our Church vnto which Christ hath made his promise neuer to forsake it but to giue it his spirite
but doth cleaue to the word of truth and to those which imbrace the same although they be neuer so few If we condemne any thing but that which the Lord himselfe doth condemne and ouerthrow any orders but such as he telleth vs to be disorders although they haue had long continuance you might wel tearme vs schismatikes new fangled but seeing we do nothing but that which is warranted by his mouth your blasphemies are against him This corrupt age as you tearme it if God prosper his Gospell wil neuer cease vntill it haue pluckt downe the Romish monster Pa. By your owne words then they haue beene deceiued these fiue or sixe hundred yeares could all the world so damnably erre thus long or is it to bee thought that in all those yeares the most part or as you say almost all were cast away for they were alwayes very few in nūber which haue refused to obey the Church of Rome Pro. Within that compasse of time which I named as it is most euident by many ancient writers the most part of your abhominable abuses haue bene established yet ye cannot gather that all the world haue erred so long because we say your Romish Sinagogue hath for you neuer had any more indeede but a corner of the world vnder your Pope your dominion was only in Europe as for Asia and Affrica which refused to be of your faction they are far the greater regions as the countries of Grecia India Chaldea Egypt Ethiopia and a great number besides these Let a man reason with you thus either all these were deceiued or else you so that of necessity you shall be forced to confesse that God suffered so great multitudes to erre But what absurdity is there in that seeing the holy Scriptures do shew that of old God chose the seede of Abraham only to be his Church cast off the Gentiles to walke after the vanities of their owne hart these were a farre greater multitude then euer your Popish rout and three times as many hundred yeares as you they might alleage for the antiquity of their religion Might not these haue obiected against S. Paul and the rest of the Apostls what were all our forefathers for these thousands of yeares cast away they neuer heard of this new religion of Christ were there not a number of great wise men among them Shal we forsake all these and the faith which they haue taught vs in so many learned and excellent bookes and follow a few of you No doubt a great multitude of madde fooles such as you Papistes are did reiect and condemne the Gospell of Christ with that reason I say still therefore that hee is wise which sticketh fast to Gods word and not to the multitudes of men nor to the antiquity which they can alleadge Pa. It pleaseth you to tearme vs what ye list but it is no matter your words are no lawe I could aunswere you well enough but I perceiue it is but to small purpose a man were as good to hold his peace for let neuer so great reason be alleadged you are so blind that you do not vnderstand it Pro. Indeed you do but loose your labour if you thinke to perswade me vnto your mind your stuffe is ouer course to entice any wise man frō the truth Ye may seeme to old simple soules whose eyes ye haue put out to be excellent men and they will nod sooth your sayings when ye tell them this that of forefathers what a goodly world it was that your religion hath euer since Christ bin continued although indeed ye need not tell so great a lie to perswade them for it is euen enough to draw them wholy to say but this your father your grandfather and your great grandfather beleeued thus will not you doe as they did but shew your words once to a man although a simple man which hath but euen a little tasted hath but some smacke of Gods word and he will iudge them by and by to bee counterfeit and very bables so that they can moue none but children fooles And therfore seeing as the Apostle S. Peter saith 2. Pet. 2. Ye should beguile but vnstable soules and such as Saint Paule doth say are like children caried away with euery puft of vaine doctrine Ephes 4 all men are to be exhorted to grow and increase in vnderstanding of Gods holy will that they may bee able to espie such draffe and filthy dregges as you offer them not to be wholesome vnto the soule Pa. Then you are able to make a simple man to be so well lettered as you say by the spirite as to iudge in so high causes you that can do so much can be able to absolue me in a great doubt or else you shall shew your selfe to bee a very vaine man Tell me then how shall a man know whether he hath the spirite of God or not and when he beleeueth this doctrine or that doctrine and is perswaded that the spirite of God doth teach him how shall he be sure as you say that he hath the right spirite all sorts of heretickes doe perswade themselues that they haue the spirite May not a man be deceiued and suppose he hath the spirite of God when it is a spirite of errour Pro. Here is a great doubt and a meruellous hard question propounded how a man shall know whether he hath the spirit of God c. This is so hard a case that a man had neede to take long deliberation to make aunswere Well may this be one question and doubt in your religion and a matter so far beyond your reach that you do suppose an impossibility it doth manifestly declare that your acquaintance hath bene very litle or rather none at all with the spirit of God that ye neither know him nor yet can perceiue how he may be knowne Cā ye know fire from water or can ye know an Appletree from a Crabtrée Pa. Ye haue made a great speake What if I can know fire from water and a Crabtree from an Appletree Doth this reason follow because a man doth know these therefore hee may know the other Is your comparison equall These things wee see feele handle and taste the other we do not Ye must bring other maner of geare then this or els a man may craue leaue to laugh at ye Pro. I cannot let ye to laugh if it be your pleasure euen your belly full but yet it must be at your owne follie For the matter well waied and vnderstood peraduenture ye may shew your téeth but not laugh very heartilie Ye can know fire from water and why because the nature and working of the one is contrary to the other ye are able to know an Appletrée from a Crabtrée because ye taste of the fruite and they are the one swéete and the other sower Is there such a working qualitie in the creatures that they may thereby be knowne Is there such
certaintie to trie the trée and to know it by the fruite And hath the spirit which made them and preserueth them so lost his power and are his qualities and operations so weake that he cannot bée discerned from the spirit of the diuell Are his fruites such as they cannot be discerned from the rotten fruites of the flesh and the workes of darknes Ephes 1. Rom. 8. Saint Paul saith that we are sealed with the holy spirit of promise he willeth mē to walke after the spirit not after the flesh he setteth forth the fruites of the flesh Galath 5. and the fruites of the spirit Rom. 8. He saith that this spirit doth beare witnesse vnto our spirit that we are the sonnes of God This should bee but a weake witnesse if wee should not bée able to know whether we haue him or not But perhaps all these scriptures many other which I could cite haue not light enough in them for your blind eyes and therefore I will shew ye the thing more fully thus A man heareth the word of God preached 1. Cor. 12. it striketh his heart and conuerteth him wheras before he was as blind as a béetle now he séeth the light whereas before he had no loue to the holy word of God now his hart is inflamed with zeale and delight in it whereas before his care was of this world couetousnes did cause him gréedily to séeke vnlawfull gaine now his mind is bent vpon heauenly things and after them he séeketh whereas before he was full of adulteries riot wantonnes vanity now his wicked affections are tamed and altered he much abhorreth such filthines and whereas before he could neuer cease doing euill he was neuer at ease but when he delighted himselfe in some vngodlinesse now he is a man quite changed he doth much lament and sorrow that euer he was so wicked to despise God all his ioy is now to doe good workes the feare of God is before his eyes now féeling this wonderfull chaunge in himselfe that he is new borne to God that he is a new creature he knoweth right well that he is lead by the holy spirit of GOD and that he hath wrought this new worke in him Pa. It seemeth by your talke that such as haue receiued the spirit are so sure that they cannot be deceiued To what purpose then was Saint Paul so carefull to warne the true Christians to take heede yea we may see that there were diuers of them seduced This is quite contrarie to that certaintie which you doe speake of Pro. There is no cōtrariety in these things for if any were seduced and drawne away frō the truth vnto destruction it is most certaine they were neuer sealed with the spirit but had some small taste He laboureth with the other to haue them grow strong to bee grounded and rooted in the trueth not to bée as children carried away with euery blast of vaine doctrine for the blessed Apostle Saint Peter describing such false Teachers as you 2. Pet. 2. sheweth that they shall beguile vnstable soules Such therefore as will not bee seduced neither by you nor any other heretikes must abound in knowledge and grace for so wee are willed If the wisedome of the holy Ghost be in vs and hath inlightened vs the subtiltie of the diuell and the power of darknesse shall not ouercome vs the power of the holy Ghost is greater then the power of Satan and for this cause we are sure of victorie If this were not we could haue but small comfort we should he but in woe case It is not your greasie pope which could helpe vs which himselfe is ouercome of the diuell and obeyeth his will Pa. Well well for this matter I say still that your doctrine is new that ye condemne all our forefathers and whereas you would seeme to proue that it is the ancient Catholike faith because ye proue it by the Scriptures I say you proue nothing for the Scriptures can proue nothing without the interpretation of the Church you can not interprete neither can ye iudge but the great shepheard whose voyce ye should heare must giue the sense therefore I say still that ye be heretikes all the packe of yee and but that I spare ye I could bite ye a little better I am sorie ye bee so wilfull Pro. When ye haue spent all your powder then yée retire backe againe into your castle which is so sure as you suppose that nothing can batter the walles but when a man doth view them well he shall finde them to be but painted clothes For in very déed ye stand obstinately and frowardly vpon certaine bare affirmations And when a man hath neuer so strongly confuted and disproued them yet ye alleadge them still But let this go and come to the rest Ye say ye could but that ye spare me or els that ye are musled bite me a little better I feare not your teeth for I trust your biting will not ranckle not because they bée not venime but because I am so well defensed that ye cannot fasten your téeth vpon me But spare not powre out all your poyson and doe your worst Pa. Yee doe but gibe and mocke at those things which I speake it is euen according to your profession yee are deriders of good things and of the true Catholike faith take heede it is better for ye to repent and to turne home againe to the holy Church which ye haue and doe dishonour I said that I did spare ye and it shall appeare now for I will touch ye a little neerer and yet but with the trueth not with all that I might say neither for it were infinite to rehearse all your abominable waies which ye walke in and are to bee charged withal A little shall suffice I say by your wicked and carnall doctrine euen your new Gospell ye teach all loosenes and licentious libertie to the flesh As for example ye denie the merits of good workes ye teach that men are iustified by faith without good deeds ye teach Election and Predestination and denie freewill and so by this meanes the people are brought to haue no care of good workes but to liue as they lust for thus it doth follow if we be iustified by faith alone what neede we care for good workes If we bee chosen and predestinate and haue no freewill left in vs to chuse or refuse then let God alone wee cannot further nor hinder our selues what should wee eare let vs then set cocke a hoope and take our pleasure while we be here this is your sweet doctrine thus ye teach Pro. I néede not maruell to heare ye threaten to bite me whē ye dare open your mouth to blaspheme the Lord God and to barke like a most filthie and prophane dogge against the most glorious Gospell of Christ Which howsoeuer ye belie it doth teach all heauenly puritie and care of good workes They bée conclusions of your owne
the people Pa. The high Priest and other Priests and Leuites which God appointed to haue that office Pro. Did the high Priestes which succeeded Aaron depart away from the truth and seduce the people at any time and likewise the other Priests and Leuites Pa. What though they did they cruc ified Christ yet it followeth not that the Pope his Cleargie can erre because Christ promised to be with them to the end of the world Pro. I will come to that promise afterward but tell me how did the Church in the meane time when the high Priests and rulers taught contrary to the truth what were they to leane vnto now where was the Church Pa. It was in Christ and those which beleeued in him these were the Church and he that ioyned himselfe to these did right and had the true faith Pro. The high Priests and Rulers in the Church could fetch their authority and succession from Aaron which was many hundred yeares When Christ taught against these and they against him alleadging that they were Moses desciples Mat. 21. they did know God spake to Moses as for him they did not know whence hee was Iohn 9. they were the Church and had authority they demanded of him by what authority he did those things and who gaue him that authority they sayd he seduced the people and none followed him but the common people which knew not the law Mat. 15. which were accursed they accused him that he brake the tradition of the Elders he brake the Sabboth and such like How did the people know who had the truth he or they Pa. They might know by the miracles which he wrought when he cast forth diuels and healed diseases Pro. They sayd he did it by the power of Beelzebub the Prince of the Diuels Iohn 10. and so blinded themselues and all other whom God did not teach by his holy spirite and therefore he sayth vnto them Iohn 8. Why do not ye heare my voyce because ye are not of my sheepe Also in another place those that are of God heare the words of God ye therefore heare them not because you are not of God And whereas you speake of miracles which he wrought Iohn 10. how did the people know that Iohn Baptist was of God seeing he wrought no miracle there can bee nothing more plaine then this that the people did not stay their faith vppon the succession of the Priests nor vppon the antiquity of traditions in the Church ordayned by the fathers nor vpon the consent of the Cleargie or any outward thing for then they shold haue refused Christ Iohn 6. but they were giuen vnto him of his Father and taught by him and therefore heard his voyce and beleeued in him Blessed art thou Simon Iohn 10. flesh and bloud reuealed not this vnto thee Mat. 16. but my father which is in heauen Euen after this manner do the Romish Pharisies deale now against the Gospell the true beleeuers we are the Church we are the successours of Peter yee must be iudged by vs your doctrine is new ye breake the traditions of the Elders ye are seducers and heretikes but when you haue sayd all that ye can we stand still vppon the rocke of Gods truth which flesh and bloud hath not reuealed vnto vs but the Father by his spirit Pa. Here is much a do and yet nothing to the purpose You made a comparison betweene our Church and the Church before Christ and because the people then did not stay vpon the rulers of the Church therefore they must not now how followeth this do ye not know that there is great difference Christ made promise that he would be with our Church vnto the end of the world Matth. 28. and therfore it can not erre Now because the Church cannot erre all those must needes bee heretikes which depart from it Pro. There is great difference betweene our Church say you and the Church of the Iewes Is the great difference in this that yours are the greater Pharisies no say you our Church can not erre because Christ hath promised to be with it to the end of the word I maruell much in what scripture a man shall find that same promise where Christ saith I will be with my holy vicar the Pope to the worlds ende and hee shall neuer erre I suppose a man shal find it either in Legenda aurea or in some such Canonicall scripture I know you wil say it is in the new Testament for Christ did promise his Apostles that he would send them the Comforter Iohn 16. and that he would be with them vnto the end of the world Ye reason thus Christ promised to be with the Church therfore with the Church of Rome your conclusion is very nimble and commeth skipping in before it bee called but it must be sent away like a skipiacke and be taught better maners Is there also as you say so great difference that the Church before Christ had no such promise was the true Church euer without the spirit of God had they no promise that way what saith God by the Prophete Psal .132 or what meaneth this I haue chosen Sion here will I rest here shall be my habitation for euer Isay 49. And likewise when the Prophete Isay saith but Sion sayd God hath forsaken me and the Lord hath forgotten me what doth the Lord answer Can a mother forget her child not pitie the sonne of her wombe though these should forget yet will not I forget thee Behold I haue grauen thee vpon my hands and thy walles are euer in my sight Are these no such promises as yours haue You see for all these the builders refuse the stone Psal 118. which is made the chiefe corner stone the rulers in the Church and such as succeeded the holy Priests of God fel away neuerthelesse God preserued his Church so the Pope his Cardinals his Bishops and Priests became are very hell hounds yet God doth preserue his litle flock they should be in a most miserable case if they had none other guide but that horned beast of Rome the Church that is the elect cannot erre to destruction but the Pope is a Captaine of heretickes Pa. This is your spitefull spirit by which ye do blaspheme but the holy father is neuer the worse for your rayling it is all the reason ye haue against him Pro. As great rayling and blasphemie as if a man should call the diuell a Dragon for Saint Iohn doth call the Pope Therion which is a fierce and sauage beast But let vs come to the matter againe when ye charge vs with new doctrine and make the cause to bee this that we depart from that doctrine which your Church hath beleeued now certaine hundred yeares against which we alleage the eternall word of God then ye shift vs off with this that we cannot vnderstand the word vnlesse we receiue the
framing which neither wee teach neither doe they follow of that doctrine which wée deliuer The diuell and the flesh reason thus God hath chosen men they haue no power of themselues they cannot deserue or merite by their good déedes but are iustified by faith alone in the merits of Christ therefore let them care for no well doing but walke after the carnall desires and lusts of the flesh what should they care they can neither further nor hinder themselues But the holy spirit of God concludeth thus God chose vs when wée were his enemies of his owne good will when wée were not able so much as to thinke a good thought therefore wee are bound to yéeld all praise and honour vnto him He hath of his infinite loue giuen vs his deare and onely be gotten sonne for to redéeme vs and to iustifie vs therefore we ought to shew our selues louing and kinde vnto him againe to serue honour and obey him in all true obedience and holy conuersation What should I stand to recite testimonies of Scripture to proue these conclusions and to ouerthrow yours when as euery poore man which hath any delight in the sacred Bible is able for to sée them They bee worse then bruite beasts which haue not learned this out of the word that God hath chosen his people hath by his frée grace redéemed and iustified them to the end they may be holy zealous of good workes although not to merit withall which they cannot yet to glorifie GOD as Christ saith Let your light so shine before mē Matth. 5 that they may sée your good workes glorifie your father which is in heauen Likewise hée saith Herein is my father glorified Iohn 15. that yée grow and bring forth much fruite We teach with S. Iohn 1. Iohn 3. he that worketh righteousnesse is borne of God he that committeth sinne is of the diuell We teach with Christ Iohn 8. that hée that committeth sin is the seruant of sin We teach with Saint Paul Rom. 8. that those which are in Christ walke not after the flesh but after the spirit We teach with S. Iames Iames 2. that that faith which is without good works is dead therefore cānot iustifie saue a man It is not faith but a dead picture and shew of faith which the diuels haue The true faith cannot bee without good workes So that wee teach a necessitie of good workes not to merit or to iustifie but to shew foorth the fruites of our calling Pap. Ye say that ye doe not teach libertie to the flesh nor giue men leaue to liue as they will nor that your doctrine doth not destroy good deedes but shall wee giue more credite to your words or to the successe and fruites which we see to follow of your doctrine He that will rightlie trie what your doctrine is let him looke what fruites it doth bring forth What better and more sure triall can a man require then this I trow ye will not refuse to bee tried by this rule Then let vs come vnto it your holy doctrine how commeth it to passe that it doth bring forth so many sowre fruites Was there euer more sinne committed VVhat fowle wickednesse is it which doth not flow in your streetes You may compare with the Sodomites for your gluttonies wantonnesse whoredomes pride couetousnesse and such like VVhat good thing can a man see in your Clergie which should giue good example to others and whose pure conuersation should be a paterne for other to follow How many of them are there which are men voide of all learning and grace who hauing spent their time lewdly and consumed their substance when they cannot tell how to liue step into the ministerie or at the least coueting to liue at ease and shunning to worke being scarce sit for the plow much lesse for the pulpit yet are admitted by your heauenly Gospell to be masters in Israel How many wanton fleshly adulterers are there among them How couetous how worldly how ambitious are your learned men Doe not all men see how they preach and take on vntill such time as they be loden with liuings and are got vp as high as they can and then as though they had wonne the vpshot they put vp their arrowes into their quiuer and vnbend their bowes they neede not any further to trouble themselues But what neede I speake when the matter it selfe doth as it were make open proclamation Your common people seeing they haue no better examples are giuen ouer to all kinde of naughtinesse If ye can proue this to be holesome doctrine which doth bring forth and allow such things as these I will be no longer a Catholike Pro. If I should answere ye onely with this that your euill fruits do farre passe ours although it were most easie to be proued yet should I make but a slender answere because that in ouerthrowing you we should also cōdemne our selues For this I must néeds confesse with yee that the doctrine which doth bring forth euill fruites cannot bée good And a good triall I doe confesse of the doctrine to be in the good fruits which it doth bring forth When ye charge vs that all abominable sins do flow in our stréetes we do also with great griefe acknowledge it And this farre I allow your sayings but whē ye ascribe these things to our doctrine as the fruites which it doth bring forth there I doe disallow ye as a blasphemer of God and his most pure trueth For it is not because our doctrine doth allow much lesse bréede such euils that they bee among vs but because our doctrine which is the holy word of God is of the most men despised and not knowne The Lord by sundry of his prophets doth complaine of the Iewes and accuseth them to bée worse then the heathen was therefore the law and doctrine which he had giuen them to bée blamed No they refused to walke in his ordinances and so doe the people at this day The Lord bée blessed there are a number although farre the lesse number which lie as scattered cornes in a great heape of chasse which haue imbraced the holy doctrine of the Lord and doe expresse it in their liues do euery day mourne for the abominations of Hierusalem and earnestly doe desire that the Lorde would purge it If either our doctrine did allowe such abuses or those which doe sincerely imbrace it walke in them then your wordes which yée vtter might haue some weight in them but séeing it is otherwise ye remaine still with the rest of your companions a wicked blasphemer of the holie word of God As for that which ye vtter against our Clergie it maketh nothing at all against vs vnlesse ye could proue that our doctrine doth allow such But ye may sée the contrarie for our Gospell doth allow none but learned Teachers and godly Pastours which expresse the worde in their conuersation those which Saint Paul alloweth
waight of it against ye But let your foolish words passe which deserue no answere and come again to the matter The next cause why such draugh as yours being but the foolish and doltish dreames of men hath such a shew of wisedome and that is the humblenes of minde which appeareth in such holy hypocrites as worship God after their own fantasie They doe so abase themselues and are as méeke and lowly as can be What can a man deuise to be more hūble then a deuout Papist he will doe any thing he is content to bowe downe and to licke vp the dust at the féete of a stock or a stone he doth so abase himselfe that he is content to worship rotten bones yea whatsoeuer the holy father of Rome will lay vpon him he is readie to beare his minde is so humble But this is not humilitie O ye blind asses but pride and haughtinesse of spirit euen against God against whom ye presume and take vpon ye to bee wiser then he because ye refuse the worship which he hath prescribed and think ye can frame a better of your owne This is the humilitie of you Papists in those good intents and deuotion which ye bragge so much of ye are like sturdie Rogues whom a man would take by their patched cloakes to be gentle and lowly when as indéede they be excéeding proude and rebellious against all good lawes The third last reason which S. Paul setteth downe why there is such a shew of wisedome in corrupt religiō is in this clause when he saith Not sparing the bodie for look how men which are proude men are moued with a shew of humilitie so also although they walke after the flesh and the flesh raigneth in them yet they like of mortification after a sort a shew whereof doth appeare in the outward punishing of the flesh which because they are able to attaine vnto they take it to goe for good payment and when they haue pined themselues with hunger for a while whipped themselues or gone barefooted and barelegged they suppose they haue mortified the flesh Alas poore wretches how humble they bée not to spare their bodies to take such paines to serue GOD and yet neuer the better For when their skinne is torne their heart is whole within still and as full of all vncleannesse as it was before These are the things which ye boast of and the Apostle saith They be of no price Colos 1. because they pertaine but to the filling of the flesh The Diuell hath bewitched men after this sort to leade them from the sight of the true mortification of the flesh through the spirit vnto outward things of no value Thus we may vnderstand that all your goodly shew which yee make is nothing worth all your religion is but superstition they do but lose their labour which trauell in it and are so farre off from pleasing God that he doth accurse and abhorre their doings Pa. A man may see what trim shifts you heretikes can make but for my part I am not moued one iot thereby to like of your religion For it cannot be good when there are so many sects among yee which it doth hatch and bring forth For your Gospell doth come into no place but by and by vp starts one and he doth maintaine this heresie another he doth maintaine that heresie and there is such snatching as if a man should shake out a bagge full of errors and euery one catcheth that which doth like him best for such effect doth follow of your preaching in all places If it were of GOD would this come to passe Can errors arise of true doctrine No this were enough to warne all wise men to take heed of ye and to flie farre from ye although there were no more In our religion we are all of one minde and agree together and therefore ours is the trueth All that will be saued must come and agree with vs. Pro. Nothing can moue you to bee of our religion and why Because it cannot be good Nay because it cannot haue your allowance to be good for the holy word of God is so perfectly good which is our whole religion that all the poyson which such venemous beasts as you are able for to vomite vp is not of force to infect it But I doe ye wrong for you shew a great reason why it cannot be good Well I will answere it The reason which ye vse here against vs is that bolt which ye haue taught euery foole to shoote but a very course armour will defend a man from it it giueth but a bumpe and neuer doth pearce but rebound backe againe Neuerthelesse because among you it is estéemed as a sharpe arrow and principall weapon I will take somewhat the more paines not onely to view it my selfe but also to let others sée the power thereof Trueth it is that whatsoeuer is of God or whatsoeuer is good cannot bring foorth that which is euill no more then darknesse can bring foorth light or heate can cause colde for how can any thing bréede that which is of a quite contrary nature to it selfe But say you Wheresoeuer your Gospell commeth there follow sundrie sects and heresies one maintaineth this and another that with sundry diuisions Therfore your Gospell is not of God it is not the trueth Before ye make this conclusion strong and sure ye must proue that as all sorts of errors do spring where the Gospell is preached which is so indéede that in like maner the Gospell is the cause of them and doth bréede them which ye shall neuer be able to doe For as Christ and his Gospell bring peace and yet he saith he came not to send peace Matth. 10. but a sword and to set the father against the sonne and the mother against the daughter and there shall be fiue in one house two against thrée and thrée against two euen so the Gospell is the trueth and setteth forth the doctrine of vnitie and yet wheresoeuer it commeth all kinde of errors spring vp Now euery wise man will confesse that Christ is the author of peace and the strife that ariseth betwéene men is not to be imputed to his doctrine but to the diuell and his seruants which warre and fight against vs because they hate it and séeke to banish it The same diuell is the cause of heresies for to discredite the word of God wheresoeuer it is taught he setteth vp his schoole also and will haue his schollers goe vnder the name of the Gospell For this is one of the readiest waies that can be to bring the word of God into contempt and to make men afraide of it Sée say they how many heresies these men fall into which meddle with the Scriptures were it not much better that there were no such preaching Pa. Doe ye then allow of strife and errors that ye will needes haue them to be companions of your Gospell Pro. If ye can gather that we allow
onely law-giuer Thus ye would bleare the eyes of the ignorant to make them beléeue that the Pope doth make lawes as Moses did But I will shew a difference Moses gaue no lawes nor any of the Apostles but such as they receiued from GOD. They neuer challenged authoritie for to make any law contrary to any part of the word of God nor to abrogate any of the lawes of God For S. Paul saith Galath 1. that if he or an Angell frō heauen should preach any other Gospell then that he had preached let him be accursed Such was the authoritie of Gods worde that if either Paul or Moses or any other which brought it should alter adde to it or diminish the same he should be accursed And yet the Pope doth take power to make lawes contrary to the lawes of the word of God to dispense with the same to disanull what hee will and which is most blasphemous of all to affirme that the holie Scriptures haue no authoritie without him but are of themselues dead can haue no certaintie Is not this to make himselfe God or equall with God What is there which hath authoritie ouer Gods word but God Who doth not here espie the very hornes of the diuell péep vp and speake these things out of the mouth of his vicar Antichrist They do al forsake God and worship the beast which giue him this authoritie Pa. I will not denie but that he which doth set vp lawes contrary to Gods lawes maketh himselfe God euen as a subiect which taketh vpon him to make lawes and to refuse the lawes of the Prince maketh himselfe as it were a king But I say the Bishop of Rome doth not so for he hath the holie Ghost and cannot erre And so when he doth forgiue sinnes he doth no more then is warranted by the word and in very deede which ye take vpon ye to doe Pro. What should I stand to answere bare words wee know the Pope is not led by the holy Ghost but by the lying spirit of the diuel because he hath so flatly troden downe Gods word and brought in his owne lawes in stead of it I will not stand to recite particulars all the world may iudge And whereas ye say he doth not forgiue sins but as we doe take vpon vs that is but a shift which ye haue deuised for all that will may see whether this bee all one to pronounce remission of sins to the penitent which we do and to send forth pardōs whereby for ten shilling matter a man might not onely haue forgiuenes of his sins past but libertie for a good time after to commit many sinnes If this be not the man of sinne where shall we finde him Who doth take vpon him to bee God if he do not which for money will forgiue a man whatsoeuer he doth commit against God Shall a rotten stinking carrion thus blaspheme and men not espie that hee is the great Antichrist I haue now shewed yée how the Pope boasteth himself to be God but I dare not say you will recant Pa. When I see matter which may force me to recant I will do it but for ought that I see brought to the purpose to proue that which you promised there is cause rather why you should recant and renounce your errors and returne againe to the holy mother which is ready to receiue those that returne to her how vnkindly soeuer they haue behaued themselues toward her Pro. The diuelish strumpet is almost left desolate and therefore she laboureth to draw as many as she can and to entice them to her loue faire and foule tag and mag all are welcome none come amisse now Murtherers whoremasters whores bawdes drunkards and all such like if they will take her for their mother she is not ashamed to take them for her children and to make them partakers of her holinesse But let vs come againe to the matter Saint Paul in the same chapter sayth That Antichrist should come with lying signes and wonders and so is it also expressed in the Reuelation that the beast should that way seduce and deceiue the inhabitants of the earth If this be not fulfilled in the kingdome of the Pope how shall it euer bee fulfilled or where shall wee looke for it What hath béen all your outcries but myracles myracles Let a man reade your Legenda Aurea and festiuall and such other pure bookes what shall he finde but myracle vpon myracle and so true that if a man would lye for the whetstone hee may there store himselfe if hee will haue a whole bundle The people did beléeue them for why the Scripture saith 2. Thess 2. GOD should send them strong delusion to beléeue lyes I dare say boldly that although you Papists a great nūber of ye haue put on impudent and shamelesse faces to maintaine lyes yet there is not one of ye but wil blush if he should take vpon him to defend that stinking puddle of lyes and fained wonders which ye fed the common people withal A man may be ashamed to recite them least those which know not the matter should thinke he doth lie Pa. What way can you proue that the myracles of the Church were false and counterfeit Will you take vpon ye to condemne such things as were done long since If there bee some things written which might wel enough be left out is the Church to be charged with that which euery particular man doth There were abuses crept in which the Bishop himselfe did not know of Is it reason he should be blamed Pro. I thinke no wise man will doubt but that this is a sufficient proofe that your myracles were but iugling casts in the darke because ye had such store then haue none now alas there is as great néede now as euer there was And if there bee but one myracle left in your budget pull it forth and let vs see it that we may giue some credit vnto ye Nay your mother had no good counsell giuen her when she had such plentie to spend it so wastfully as she did and to kéepe none for a deare yeare I wisse a few of those great wonders which shée shewed in time past would now stand her in great stead Pa. Mocke on take your pleasure there is none to controule ye VVhat though there be neede at this time yet the world is vnworthie euen as Christ said to the Pharisies when they required a signe Matth. 19. This euill and adulterous generation seeketh a signe but there shall no signe be giuen them but the signe of Ionas the Prophet Euen so what reason is it that the holy mother should shew any wonders and myracles vnto you which are worse then the Pharisies Pro. Alacke good old mother she hath néede as much as euer she had to shew her cunning but the world is not worthie Although shée might winne great credit by it yet she had rather kéepe a good conscience And therefore
is among you Papists Some one of ye doe deuise a lye and then ye tosse it from one to another vntill at the last it hath a passeport giuen it from such credible men that it may go where it wil. But I will let this passe and come to some other of your wicked meanes by which yee labour to stay vp the rotten chayre of Antichrist I will come yet to greater and more shamefull villanies which trueth neuer néedeth because the Lord doth support her Pa. Can you finde such matters against vs and not see your selues I warrant ye that which ye doe accuse vs of is to be found in you howsoeuer ye accuse vs and excuse your selues Pro. Where can ye finde that euer the truth was maintained by periuries and breaking couenants Let a man reade and reade again among all Heathen men Turks and Iewes where shall he finde that it hath bin taken generally to be allowed that they might sweare and forsweare to deceiue and not make conscience to kéepe the oth Among you this is a principle faith is not to bee kept with heretikes Which also yee doe from time to time put in practise It is not to bee looked for that you should sticke to make lyes when yee dare publish it to the world in writing that ye may lawfully forsweare your selues and breake the faith which ye haue giuen by oth By this meanes ye haue cōmitted very horrible slaughters and cruell murthers the like whereof haue scarsely béen heard of Are these practises of God O ye bloody periured forsworne wretches Doth the holy Ghost leade men into such kind of dealing no verely it is the spirit of the father of lyes of periuries of murthers which ye are lead withall Gods spirit is the spirit of trueth hee neuer teacheth men to lye and to deale falsly and therefore those people are bewitched which think the Pope his adherēts to bee lead by the spirit of God when as they be so full of all abominable treacheries Pa. What should we meddle with these things I cannot tell how a man should perswade you to see the authoritie of the Church You iudge of all things after your owne reason I haue no delight to deale in these matters I will not say that which I could say Pro. I cannot blame ye that ye are loth to meddle in these matters It were a great deale better if they were kept close among your selues For now no man that is wise will trust ye neither vpon promise nor yet vpon oth which ye breake so often There be many goodly rules which ye deuise now secretly among your selues But what should you go about to perswade with me in these matters which am not first perswaded how great authoritie the Church hath For ye haue none other argument but the authoritie of the Church to allow these things Gods word doth curse and condemne periuries and murders committed by such treacheries To dispute out of that for the maintenance of them yee know yee shall haue but a cold suite of it It is a great deale better therefore to lay the word of God aside and to set forth what power the new God hath for to change the nature of things He is of another maner power then men wéete The GOD which hath spoken in the Scriptures can doe nothing nor say nothing but trueth but the God of Rome hath power to do what he will and to say what hee list whether it bee true or false This is a mightie God he can play both fast and loose at his pleasure Let a thing bée neuer so much commended by God in the Scriptures if he say it is naught then is it naught So on the other side whatsoeuer it bee that is condemned to be euill he hath power to make it good This is the cause why you say many are deceiued they looke but to the Scriptures and forget this God which hath power ouer the Scriptures Pa. If you may accuse what ye list then it were well But let vs see wherein the Pope hath challenged any such power Pro. Haue not I shewed ye already in some part as in lyes murders and periuries Will ye haue more what say ye to treasons and rebellions Doth not the Pope make it lawfull to commit treason Doth he not discharge subiects of their obedience and subiection to their Prince Doth he not giue any of them leaue to kill their Prince and maketh it a worke greatly meritorious What diuell can goe further then this Doth not God set vp Princes and hath not hee put the sword into their hands Doth not he charge men to bée subiect to obey them Doth not he say that whosoeuer doth resist them doth resist the ordinance of God and that those which doe resist do purchase to themselues damnation O ye traiterous wretches doe ye not sée that yée draw all those into damnation vnder Gods curse whom ye draw from their loue and obedience towards their Prince Let all men consider this hath a greasie balde Priest of Italie power against Gods word to giue leaue to subiects and inferiour persons in England to play the vilaines and traytors against their soueraigne prince whom God hath set ouer them for whose defence God doth require at their hands to giue their liues Shal the foule beast of Rome haue power to reward that déede in heauē which God hath threatned to punish in hell Let all the people of this land consider this and shun such filthy abominable men Some will say wherefore should wee eschew them being honest If ranke traytors be honest then are all the Iesuites Seminaries and popish priests with such as loue and harbour them to be counted honest Pa. I see more and more that I cannot preuaile by speaking and therefore I will giue ye ouer say euen what ye list I see it is good for a man to take heed with whom he doth talke I could answere ye to the full if it might doe good Thus much I will say that it is one thing to commit treason against a prince which is godly and another thing to kill an heretike which is no lawfull prince The subiects indeede may not disobey and rebell but when the prince is no right prince then they are no longer subiects What say ye to Ehud in the booke of the Iudges did not he slay Eglon king of Moab and that vnder colour of a message What say ye to Iehoiada the priest did not hee cause them to slay Athaliah when she had reigned certaine yeares and set vp Ioash to bee king If the priest of the law had this power how much more the priest of the Gospell Pro. Ye would giue me ouer now ye say but your traiterous heart is so full that it will not suffer ye Indéede I know ye like it much better to deale among the vnlearned people whom ye may draw to your opinion or with such as ye know to beare the same minde