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spirit_n holy_a scripture_n speak_v 14,888 5 5.2608 4 true
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A68850 A mothers teares ouer hir seduced sonne: or A dissuasiue from idolatry penned in way of a dialogue, by occasion of a late letter from the sonne now at Doway, to his mother: which is also printed vvith the letter, and is fully set downe in the sonnes part, for the substance, though with some addition in forme.; Answere of a mother unto hir seduced sonnes letter. 1627 (1627) STC 24903.5; ESTC S114250 89,317 193

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it in the time of prayer but to make the mind as sensuall as the Image which should be quire drawne from the senses Call ye this a serving God in Spirit SONNE Yes for marke my Leaders words wee use them but as a devout representation of the Churche Triumphant which is fit to bee made in the time and place of prayer MOTHER I say nothing of the Church Triumphant or of that proportion which is betwixt the the representation and the thing represented turne we to Deut. 4. 15. Take good heed for ye saw no manner of Image lest yee corrupt your selves and make the representation of any figure See here ye saw no Image ye shall make the representation of no figure wee doe use Images as a representation What call ye this but with a whores forehead to walke in the stubbornesse of your owne hearts yee shall not yet ye will doe contrary to the expresse charge of God therefore as theirs so your services are accompted no better then sacrificing to Divells Deut. 32. 17. Whosoever walkes contrary to Gods revealed will shall find the Scripture an adversarie and contrary to his way in every page Agree then with thy adversarie while thou art in the way For ye can no more wash your hands from Israels sin then their following generation could theirs from innocent blood Therefore that thou may'st be pricked in thy heart I returne to the second of Isaiah where we find the burden of Idolatry The meane man boweth downe and the great man humbleth himselfe therefore forgive them not wherefore they bowed they humbled Marke it the iudgement is tied to bowing and humbling Forgive them not had thy Mother some rhetoricks now what could shee doe with it Elocution thrice repeated could do no good here This is a iudgement beyond expression It is the utmost of all Iudgements Why The horse may trample out the braines of a man and stamp his body to pieces yet there is hope in that death The Canon may dash the body like a snow ball throwne against the wall yet there is hope in that death The sword may bee made fat with the blood of the slaine there may be wailing in all streetes and crying out in all high wayes Alas Alas yet there may be hope all this while for these things fall alike to all and no man knoweth love or hatred But forgive them not What think you A man might here enquire with sobriety too why the Prophets tongue was thus steel'd against the people he seem'd more then a Son of thunder his words were swords even bitter words Lord forgive them not on would haue thought that he should have stood in the gap and have said Lord forgiue them Yea but the Prophet that hath a dreame may tell a dreame Ierm 23 but he that hath the word he saw concerning Iudah and Ierusalem Isaiah 2. 1 must speake the word faithfully and when the people shall aske what is the burden of Lord the Prophet must answer I will euen forsake you saith the Lord. Iere. 23. 33. Consider we now here is an heavy iudgment can the exalting of a peice of wood procure such a punishment Consider wee againe that sillie man would not be compared to a block and that iealousie is the rage of a man he will not spare in the day of vengeance Prov. 6. 34. Consider also that the name of the Lord is dreadfull he will bee sanctified of all that come neere him for hee is a consuming fire This puts vs upon Dauids words let vs call for his spirit my flesh trembleth for dread of thee and I feare for thy Iudgements Psal 119. 120. But if thy heart continue yet stiffe thou hast made thy selfe liable to Belshazzars sin which brought destruction upon him like a whirle-wind The Lord hath done thus and thus to Ephraim and thou hast not humbled thy heart though thou knewest all this But hast praised the gods of silver and gold wood c. and the God in whose hand thy breath is and whose are all thy wayes thou hast not glorified Dan. 5. 22. Good Child consider it and since I cannot give thee my right hand of fellowship yet the Mother and Child would faine bee together they would not a few miles should part them much lesse such a gulfe let us before thy hand bee pluck't backe seriously debate this thing by what hath beene said by what shall be said which is safest which surest my comming over unto thee or thy comming over unto us that if it may be we may be together here and hereafter for ever with the Lord. Attend then further to what I have learn'd from Pauls planting and Apollos watering God giving the increase we acknowledge but one Church firme and stedfast as the foundation of the everlasting Hills compared to Noahs Ark as in many respects so also for this because as out of that there was nothing but death so out of this there can be no salvation And therefore as Noah having Gods speciall order for the matter and forme of it had also his invisible hand to guide it So likewise hath this Church that watchman of Israel for its Pilot therefore though it be in continuall dangerin yet shall it be preserved from the raging waves of this sea be safely brought to the haven where it would bee And for its more sure direction this keeper of Israell hath appointed at a most certaine and infallible oracle whereunto all the Prophetts and Apostles give witnesse and thereunto it doth give diligent heede and firme assent because the Authority and testimony therof is alwaies the same being grounded upon Gods unchangeable veritie As for the Popes succeeding Peter the Church findeth not the truth of it in hir Genealogies and it may be as doubtfull as the succession of Peters Cocke whose Pedegree notwithstanding they say hath beene lineally drawne from generation to generation and it is Cock-sure But yet call your Pope what you will Iohn or Ioane you know it was doubtfull once yet is hee of the same mould with Peter and may erre as hee did whereupon Paul resisted him to the face for hee was to be blamed Gal. 2. 11. And therefore whatsoever he saith challengeth no other then an humane consent unto it for if all the men in the world not immediately directed as were extraordinary Prophets Apostles in whom the spirit spoke and testified by them should consent in one as they notwithstanding their multitude were but men though many so were their testimonie but humane It was not then of old time that they asked councell of your holy Father and so ended the matter but search the Scriptures they testifie of me There is our oracle hearken to what they say The Church of the living God I call it neither ours nor yours but blessed is the man that hath his name written therein is the pillar and ground of trueth no foundation whereon the building must relie but as it is
but a man weedes come up of themselues good corne not so flesh is propagated not spirit Thou canst but speake to the eare by all thy planting by all thy wat'ring it is God that boares it so giuing your increase Thou canst not adde to the stature the one or the other yet let me thrust in one thing by the way I finde obedience pre'st upon the parent in many places as a speciall meanes to in●aile a blessing upon the child And it shall be well with thee Is that all No. And with thy seede after thee A strong motive to obedience But still here is a brittle Barke and it must passe through a tempestuous sea every little gale tosseth it a greater indangers it Pray that grace a commodity thou canst not stoo in him may set him vpright and keep him so I say pray as Paul in another case oft and againe that the keeper of Israell would so steere him off the Rockes where there will be ship wracke as that he may not cause his Parents Teares they will be bitter ones for I can tell in experience that one Child is unto the Parents as the two basketts of Figgs to the Pallet when good very good then sweet very sweete he is their Isaac the Parents ioy When bad very bad then bitter very bitter he is a Benoni all their sorrow hence A Mothers Teares Beleeue it Reader a Child is a kind of a thing lapt up together like a pretty bundle thou maist call it a bundle of Cares but that 's to generall There are three things wrapt closely in it one as thou maist be thou shalt feele before thou see'st it and that is Labour or Sorrow the other comes to thy hand presently and sticks to it like bird-lime thou canst not shake thy hands off it and that is Care The other which is Comfort thou maist meete with but thou knowest not when and being found it may slip from thee thou knowst not how soone but in place of it thou shalt be sure to feele the first againe perhaps in more extremitie God giue thee comfort in thine Now say as much for mee And thee thine againe THE AVTHOR TO THE Christian Reader THis Booke hath yet a further Reference unto thee then what the Mother hath told For that it concernes that High Relation also thou standest in towards God to whom thou owest honour because thou callest him Father And feare because thou cal'st him Lord in whom all Relations meet as lines in their Center and from whom they receive both light motion and direction For be it thou art a Governour thou must cōmand in the Lord. Be it thou art a servant so is a Sonne too under age thou must obey in the Lord. And herein the more or lesse Idolatrous thou art the more or lesse faulty Now if thou shalt say the Case is well with thee for thou art no Idolator my Answer is thy heart may deceive thee and surely doth Indeed I am perswaded of thee that if thou hast not shut thine eyes against the cleare light thou art not such a Child in yeares or understanding Be it thon art not fit for strong meat but that thou do'st loath and detest Idolatry in the generallity maine tenents of the same As first that the Mysticall Body the Church which is least in sight should have an Head on earth so visible as a Tripple Crowne will make it Secondly that a Supreame power should bee given to him to others a power so subordinate as that they though the Lords anoynted on earth I doe not read the Popes are so should bee but fit to kisse his holinesse feete when as an unmannerly dog strained curtesie and bit his toes He no doubt without whose providence the least sparrow falleth not correcting such exorbitant pride by a contemptible though serviceable Creature Thirdly That hee who hath his foundation in Clay what euer they who giue titles to men accompt of him should be planted so high aboue his Predecessor Peter so some would haue it as that the shot whereby Peter was hit cannot reach his Successour Fourthly That he should keepe a faire for Indulgences and pardons Excommunications Bulls and Curses and I know not what As if he had so much interest in God as to make him pardon man for his profit Or as if Balak had so much power in Balaam that hee could make him curse where God will blesse follow not thou the counsaile of Balaam to mixe thy selfe with strangers and to follow their workes so drawing a Curse on thy selfe and Balaam though hee bee upon his Asse and forward on the way shall not hurt thee Fiftly That the constitutions of the Popes Cardinals are of divine Authority when as thou maist giue more credit to an old wiues tale Sixthly That the word which is the mightie power of God vnto saluation and is profitable to teach to instruct and to reproue that the man of God may be perfect should notwithstanding the necessity excellency of it be lockt vp in an vnknowne tongue when as besides what thou hast well obserued from Paules words 1. Cor. 14. Thou art verily perswaded that thy shepheard takes more felicity with his Dogg then in hearing him pray or prophesie whose language hee understandeth not Aug. de Ciuit. Dei lib. 19. cap. 7. Seuenthly That the Virgin mother may command the Sonne whereas she rejoyceth in God hir Saviour And that the Saints may bee invocated as Intercessors though not as Mediators whereas there is but one that sitteth to make intercession for us euen he that sitteth at the right hand of his Father This and much more thou callest grosse Idolatry a darkenesse which may be felt and is by all such as are not blinded with ignorance as it were by proscription who professing themselues to bee wise are become fooles and having chang'd the truth of God into a lye are now delivered up unto strong delusions even to belieue lyes And thus much for that I am verily perswaded of thee my hope reacheth yet further concerning thee That whereas thou hast so often read of the Iewes so often reprooued for their Fasts their Prayers their Almes excellent things in themselues thou hast thence concluded that workes auaile nothing unlesse they proceede from a touched and religious heart unlesse they doe not in name only agree but are in truth answerable to our profession for that God is pleased with truth not with ceremonie with substance not with forme with mercy rather then sacrifice with obedience rather then the fat of Lambes with cutting off the right eye and arme not with casting away the baggs And all this considering what the Lord saith in the first of Malachi In every place shall be offered unto me a pure offering but cursed be the deceaver that hath in his flocke a male and offereth unto the Lord a corrupt thing offer it unto the Governour will he bee pleased with thee or accept thy person I am
receive but also purgeth the heart from all dead workes it doth not only take but it doth also worke by love behold now the joy and peace of this man at what ease doth he now lie If we looke upon him we would set up a Tabernacle by him nay certainly we should continue with him for ever He finds his bed large enough for his wearied body to rest upon the plaister great enough to the wound the covering large enough to wrap himselfe in and now heare him what he saith Lord unto me thou wilt ordaine peace for thou hast wrought all my workes Isai 26. 12. Thou hast commanded deliverance for Iacob In thee I will boast all the day long The righteous shall heare of it and shall wait upon thee for this thing For I declare to the world that they who observe lying vanities forsake their own mercies Ionah 2. They shall sinke upon them as a man upon quick-sand The sarrowes of them who offer unto other Gods shall be multiplied their offerings I will not offer nor make mention of their names within my lipps but I will remember thee only and thy name thou art the portion of my inheritance and of my cup thou maintainest my let the liues have fallen to me in pleasant places yea I have a goodly heritage I will blesse thee O Lord who hast given me this counsell for now my heart is glad my glory reioyceth my flesh also shall rest in hope for thou hast not left my soule in Hell thou hast showen me the path of life in thy presence is fulnesse of ioy and at thy right hand are pleasures for evermore Thou hast heard in this one the Church speaking I have brought hir in upon another occasion and upon more deliberation clearing hir oft ecclipsed light as farre beyond Luther as the rising of the Sunne is from his fall and thence fetching his race as the Sunne in his strength though many times hid under a cloud And this she proves out of the Scripture where is no other spirit then what speakes in the hearts of hir children first from what the Lord hath done for her and then what she hath teturned to the Lord. Secondly from what her enemies in all ages haue done against her and then what she hath done for them Thirdly from those many deliverances past present though they be slaine all the day long and to come Wherein the Lord hath doth will make bare his Arme. Thou hast only the first here but briefly and in another forme of words as be fits the present but hast thou not discerned what a building this is I would ravish thy thoughts if any shall try to pluck a stone from this building it shall be unto him a burdensome stone If any shall march against it the horse shall be smitt with astonishment and his Rider with madnes If any shall attempt to burne it it shall be unto them as a firy torch in a sheaffe If to devoure it it shall be unto them as a cup of trembling the Lord hath said this Zach. 12. He hath he will he doth make it good Come away come away it is much to be under the shadow of it cast off all those dead works which thou dost eye too much and learne what the Lord requyres at thy hands surely not thowsands of Rames nor ten thousand rivers of oyle nor the sonne of thy body for the sinne of thy soule but to feare the Lord and to serue him in sinceritie and truth Iosh 24. 14. not mentioning the names of other gods nor bowing thy selfe unto them Iosh 23. 6. but to breake off thy sinns by repentance● amd that there be an healing of thine errour to do iustly and to loue mercy and to walke humblie with thy God approuing thy selfe as the child of God not by these assumed services which will not hold weight when righteousnes is put to the scale but as the Saints doe by purenes by knowledge by long sufferings by kindnes by the holy Ghost by loue unfained by the word of truth by the power of God by the armour of righteousnes one the right hand and one the left Oh my bowels doe yearne upon my child my heart is inlarged Thou art not kept straite in me but I am kept straite in thee Thou maiest plainely conclude by what is said see how dearely my mother loues yea and the Lord knoweth too who is truth it selfe that my desire of thy returne hath no lesse loue in it then it hath safetie too for I wish aboue all things that thou maiest prosper as thy soule may prosper Once more if there bee any consolation in Christ if any comfort of loue if any fellowship of the spirit if any bowels of mercy fullfill my ioy and come away And that thou maist make hast for a Mothers affection thinks the shortest time long I will quit thy argument which thou thoughtest so fit for my capacity indeed it was so with another as fit for thine for thou art but a child yet and knowest nothing as thou oughtest to doe And I know it shall fall as right as thine did but then with a different effect Thine did but foile the forme of godlinesse that was amongst us the power was not touched the truth remains the truth still and will be justified of hir children mine shall take away the truth and power you seeme to have and shall tell thee plainely there is none indeed harken while this argument smits your holy Mothet this once I will not smite her the second time for I shall labour to drive the naile to the head fasten hir to the ground with it that she rise not againe and all this in a deare affection to thee that so I may get thee out of her Tent and free my selfe from the feare thy selfe from the danger of having that other nayle in thy Temples Nearken then while the wiles and deceits of this Harlot are discovered unto thee these are playne by what hath ben saide by her name by her practise I shall not paralel this holy mother with hers in the 3 Proverbs it would proue her an Harlot but it would be taken in scorne neither will I tell you how shee hath filled forth the Cup of her fornications that wold prove as much but some would deny it Nor will search into the chamber of hir Imagery I cannot see into that I will take hir owne Argument and if I can by that prove hir to be cruell in commanding the Child to be divided I will by helpe of that Scripture turne it like a weapon against hir and sheath it in hir bowells for that Scripture makes cruelty the inseperable marke of an Harlott and when that is done the holy Mother is killed the Harlot is reserved to a longer day hir punishment sleepeth not The holy Mothers Argument against the Church hath beene drawne from the block fire sword persecution interdiction and the like there is