the Canonical scriptures Phâ— Answer I do not denye it But no man is able to proue that the Israelites kepte the body or bones of Ioseph for to haue them to be worshipped For no maÌ„ did fal or knele doun before Iosephs tomb no man did bring the cheste that his body or bones were in into the Tabernacle no man did light candels or tapers beefore it But Ioseph woulde by thys meane confirme and establish the faith of his people in the promisses of gâ—d 〈…〉 â—ouching the lande of be heste For so doth Ioseph say to his bretherne I am redy to dye and god will surely visite you and brâ—ng you out of this laÌ„d vnto the land whiche hâ— sware vnto Abraham vnto Isaac vnto Iacob And Ioseph toke an other of the children of Israell saying God will surely visite you and yâ— shal cary my bones hence Paule beynâ— a faithfull expositour of this facte or dede of Ioseph by faith Hebr â—1 saith he Iosephe when he died made mention of the departing of the children of Israel and gaue coâ—â—aundement of hys bones That is because he doubted nothing of the worde and promise of god therfore did he coÌ„maunde his brethern at their goyng out of Egipt to cary out his bones into the land of ChanaaÌ„ So sure was he that the lord would according vnto his promises bring the children of Israell oute of Egipte into the lande that he had promised vnto their forefathers After Moses there were none among the prophets more samoê° ã€ˆâ—Šã€‰ of greatter renoune than Samuell and Hâ—lias were Samuel Helias 〈…〉 5 2 Kâ—n 2. Yet we do not reede that any memoriall was appointed or set vp for him For the holye scripture doth plainly speak of his death and buriyng after this maner Samuell died and all Israell dyd gather them selues together and did wepe for him did bury him in his house in â—ama 〈…〉 As for Helias he was taken vp in a syâ—e chariot not into a temple made with handâ—s but into heaueÌ„ partly that in that exâ—mple we myght haue a most infallible testimony of our immortality and of that moste excellente reâ—aâ—de that GOD hathe prepared and layed vp for his faythfull prophetes and partelye that by this meane all occasion of worshipping this holy prophetes body might be taken away Some of the anciente writers are of opinion that the body of the blessed virgin Marye Epiphani was either by the angels caried vp into heauen or els by their ministery buried in such a place as is knowen vnto no maÌ„ vnto this day because that god would not haue that chosen vessel the temple of his holy spirit and the mother of his onely begotten sonne to be made anidole of superstitious and euill disposed persons The holy scripture doth speak thus of Eliseus the prophete Elizeus â— Kin 13. And Elizeus died and they buried him And certaine bandes of the Moabites came in to the lande that yere And as they wer burying a man beholde they sawe the souldiours therfore they did cast the man into the sepulchre of Elizeus and wheÌ„ the man was doune and touched the bones of Elizeus he reuiued or lyued again and stoode vpon his fete And yet we rede not that after this miracle the bones of Elizeus were taken vp and translated or that there was anye pylgrimage appoyncted vnto theym or a churche of S. Elizeus buylded and set vppe We rede in Ecclesiasticus or in the booke of Iesus the sonne of Syrach that after Elizeus death Eccl. â—8 his body prophecied and that as he did wonders in his lyfe so in deathe were his workes merueylous And that yet for all thys the people repented not nor departed from their sinnes VVhy the dead that â—â—a caste in to â— Elizeus â—â—auâ— taâ—eâ— againe It doth appeare theÌ„ that this miracle was not doone for to teach the people to worship or to geue godly honour vnto the faithful seruantes of god but that therby the auctoritye of Elizeus whose doctrine in hys life thei conteÌ„ned might be confirmed that at this sight they might embrace the same doctrine and turn again vnto the lorde their god with all spede and so escape the destruction that honge ouer their heades for their stubburnesse disobedience and rebellioÌ„ 1. Kin. â—â— Vnder that most holy godly prince Iosias when the bones of the fals prophets were breÌ„t the sepulchre of the maÌ„ of god was not ones touched yet we rede not that there was any pilgrimage vsed to it Obâ—e 12. Dâ— All these examples are only examples of the olde Testament But what exaumples can ye bring out of the neue PHILA Answer Math. 11. Math 14. Act. â— Among them the are borne of womeÌ„ there arose not a greater as oure sauiour Iesus Christ doth testifye him self than Iohn Baptist But the holy euangelist S. Mathew writeth thus of him And when Iohn was beheaded his disciples came and toke vp his body and did bury it Of Stephen the first martir of Christe Luke in the Actes of the Apostelles doth write on this manner And certayne men fearing god caried Stephen among theym to be buried made great lamentation for him Yf the taking vp or translating of the bodies of the dead Saincts had ben profitable vnto the churche of Christe neyther the olde ancient churche that was afore him nor yet the primitiue church that was nexte after him shoulde haue wanted it or bene without such honoring of the faithfull seruantes of god if god would haue them to be honored after the same sorte Therfore lette no man maruell that I will in no wyse alowe the doynges of kinges and princes and of bishops which be contrarye to the scriptures and worde of god and that I do vtterly reiecte the argumentes of Hierome The auctoâ—â— of â—od 〈…〉 as both weake and repugnant vnto goddes holy and sacred booke the warraunt and auctoritye of which ought to be preferred before the autority of aungels much more then before the auctoritie of corruptible and mortall men I would wyshe that leauing the bodies of the dead Saintes in the place appointed of God for theym there to reste in peace and in hope of their glorious rising again we should haue in due reuerence their true reliks whiche are 〈…〉 the exaumple of theyr stedfast fayth and beliefe their godlye lyfe and conuersation and theyr sound doctrine that they haue left behynd them for our instruction and the edifiyng of the true church of god Albion I maruell that ye do so stoutly defend Vigilantius Doth not this holy father and doctour of the holy catholike church I pray you lay to his charge that he did rayse vp againe and reuiue the heresy of the Caines whiche as a Scorpion did venime the whole body of the churche It appeareth by the booke whyche Tertullian dydde write of heresyes Teâ—â— li. haâ—â— where he speaketh of the errours of the Ophites
the inuocation or calling vpon of the dead saints For why should he els say that the chirsten people did keepe the meâ—ories or remembraÌ„ces of the martyrs that they might be helped by their prayers Philalethâ— â–ª But howe dothe this agree with that whiche he writeth bothe in this place and also in the two and twentieth boke De ciuitate Dei and tenth chapiter He saith plainely in the place before alleaged that they did not set vp altars nor yet offered vp sacrifices vnto the martyres And in the boke De ciuitate Dei which we spake of eueÌ„ now he writeth thus The Gentiles haue builded temples set by altars ordeined priests and offred sacrifices vnto their gods But we do not buyld vp temples vnto our martirs as vnto gods but remembrances as vnto dead men whose spirites soules do lyue with God Neither doo we there set vp aultars in the whiche we shold offer sacrifices vnto martires but we do offer sacrifices vnto the only God of the martirs and ours at the which sacrifice as men of God which haue ouercomed the world with theyr confession they are in theyr place and in their order named And yet they be not called vpon or prayed vnto of the priest that offreth the sacrifice For Praiers are â—â—e sacrifiâ—es of the eleâ—â— aâ—d â—â—osen of god he is the priest of god not theirs Nowe this is most euident plaine the prayers are the sacrifices of the saints I mean of the elect and chosen people of God beyng sanctified in the blood of his son Iesus Christ we mai coÌ„clude then eueÌ„ vpon the wordes of S. Augustin that prayers ought to be offered vnto God only and not vnto the dead sainctes that is that God onely not the dead saintes ought of al the godly to be called vpon Herevnto dothe that belong and pertaine whiche he speaketh also in that place sayenge Sancti vel homines vel angeli id sibi tribuâ— nolunt quod vni deo deberi noâ—unt Holy men or holye aungelles will not haue the same to bee attributed vnto theym which they knowe to be due vnto God onely We maye gather by this that they will none of our prayers nor of our inuocation The proude diuelishe spirites do vsurpe that which doth perteine vnto God onely Therefore as Daniell woulde aske nothyng of any man Danie â— but of God only so all the godly will in their praiers call vpon none other but on the true lyuyng God thorough his sonne Iesus Christ our lord and of him only aske all thynges that they haue neede of Nowe as touching his opinion wherby he doothe thynke and suppose that the soules of the righteous doo pray for vs in heauen for as much as it is only grounded vpon coniectures or gessyng and not vppon the infallible worde of God nor vpon any strong argumentes or reasons taken out of the same we may without any perill of our saluation reiect or refuse it cleauing vnto that whiche we haue alleadged before oute of his booke De cura pro mortuis agenda wher he gouÌ„deth himselfe altogether vpon the holy scriptures affirmyng that the blessed soules departed be paste all sollicitude and care for the liuing Albion Nowe sithe that the sayinges of the fathers will not helpe â—h ect 15 eâ— 48 I will come to the plain scriptures These are Iacobs wordes The aungell which hath deliuered me from all euill blesse the children let my name be called vpon them and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac In this autoritye of the scriptures they note two speciall thinges Fyrste how that Iacob dothe confesse that he was deliuered by the aungell and that this aungel doth blesse Secondly how that his name and the name of his fathers shoulde be called vpon those children which is as much as if he should haue sayde They shall call vppon my name and vpon the name of my forefathers â—achâ— 1. Herunto do they adde this place of Zacharye And the aungell of the Lorde aunswered and sayde O Lorde of hostes how loÌ„g wilt thou be vnmercifull to Hierusalem and to the cities of Iuda with whom thou hast ben displeased nowe these three score and ten yeres Hereby doe we plainely learne say they that the aungels doo care for our miseries and praye for vs. They be also kepers guides of meÌ„ yea they be appointed to waite vpon them For thus we rede in Exodus Exod. â—3 Behold saith the lord I send myn angel before thee to kepe thee in thy way to bring thee to the place which I haue prepared And in the psalmes Psal 91. for he shal geue his angels charge ouer thee to kepe thee in all thy ways They shall beare thee in their hands that thou hurt not thy fote against a stone Dani. 10. The angels be also called presidents of realmes because that vnto them whole contreis be coÌ„mitted Phil. First formost as touchyng those thinges that bee generally obiected or brought against vs of the angels Answer how they do blesse pray for vs howe they are presidentes guides kepers bothe of men and of realmes I haue lieffer bryng the answeres of the ancient fathers than myne own reasons LactaÌ„tius in his diuine institutions writeth after this maner Lactanti insti 2. li. ca 17. Neither hath God nede of any name sith that the is alone nor the angels sith they be immortall will suffer themselues to be called goddes whose one and only office and duetye is to bee at the commaundemente and becke of GOD. For we saye that the worlde is gouerned of god as a prouince is by a ruler whose apparitours and officers no man will cal his felowes in the gouernement of the prouince And yet they may do many thinges besydes the commaundemente of the ruler through his ignoraunce whiche is an humayne infirmitye But the ruler gouernour of the whole world who knoweth all thinges and from whose eies nothyng is hidden hath alone with his sonne power ouer all thynges neither is there any thyng in the angelles but a necessitie to obeye Therfore they will haue no honour to be attributed vnto them whose honor is in god But they which are reuolted and fallen awaye from the ministerye and seruice of god do go about to chalenge vnto theym selues the name of god and the worshipping of the gods Saint Augustine Au. lib. 10 de ciuitate dei ca. 12. dothe in all thynges agree with Lactantius What miracles soeuer sayeth this holy father bee so diuinely wrought done eyther by angels or by som other mean that they do coÌ„mend the religion worshipping of the only god in whom only the blessedful lyfe is we must beleue that they are truly done of them or by them whiche do loue vs according to the truth godlinesse God him selfe working in them And when the aungels do heare vs god him selfe doth heare in theym as in his true
Christians and to cleaue onelye to Christe and by him to be made one with the father If the saintes do all thinges yf they haue the gouernement tuition defense protection of cities and townes if the standing manfullye in battaile the rennyng awaye and victory if the curinge of diseases if the benefit of health be in their haÌ„ds if they haue power ouer the windes stormes tempestes if they possesse al the lymmes of a mannes body what doth god in the meane while Where is his diuyne prouidence will they say that god being wearye doeth coÌ„mit the gouernement of his creatures vnto other But no suche infirmities is god subiect vnto It is euident and plaâ—ne then right honorable sir that they doe make of him a plaine Idole yea they make of him no god at all For take his diuine prouideÌ„ce away or make him subiect to any infirmities and then he is no god It is farre otherwise with vs. Howe the faithful do confesse god For beinge instructed by the scriptures and worde of god we do wholly depend vpon his fatherly prouidence vsing with most harty thankefulnes all those lawful meanes that he hath appointed and ordeyned for vs and so gyue him onelye the whole glorye of the gouernement of al thinges for the commoditye and profit of his chosen and electe people A denial of god Again is not this a denial of god to go aboute to worshippe and serue him otherwise then he himself doeth appoint and prescribe in his holy and sacred word Socrates being an heathen Socrates doeth plainlye say that in religion it is requirâ—d that euery god be worshipped after his own wil and not after the wil of his worshippers If this did take place in false religioÌ„ howe muche more ought it to take place in true religion I meane in that religion that god hath set fourth vnto vs by his eternal and euerlasting wisedome Deut. xii These are his wordes Ye shal not do euery man that thing that seemeth vnto you best I am the Lorde my god that thing only that I commaunde thee se that thou doest it add nothing vnto it and minish nothing from it Again Math xv They worship me in vaine teaching the doctrines and preceptes of men But howe wel these thinges haue bene and are obserued of our frends the catholikes let your honour be iudge Those wayes that god wil be worshipped and serued they haue stoutly contemned chose eueri day straunge kindes of worshipping and seruice which the Lord doeth not once mencion of in the scriptures This then is an other differeÌ„ce betwixt them and vs How the godâ—y do worship god that we will haue god to be honoured worshipped and serued accordinge to his worde and as he himselfe doeth appointe and prescribe in his sacred scriptures submitting our selues wholy our wit and reason al the wisdome that can be in vs vnto his vnsercheable wisdome and coÌ„tenting our selues with that fourme and maner of religyon that he hath sett fourthe vnto vs by his sonne Iesu Christ whom he hath appointed by his holy spirit to be the only teacher scholemaster of his church Mat. xvii we do study labour to the vttermost of our power with al due submission and obedience to kepe our selues within the limites and boundes of his prescribed rules Canons hauing alwayes this saying of Samuell before our eyes Samu. xv Hath the lord as great pleasure in burnt offeringes and sacrifices as when the voice of the Lord is obeyed Behold to obeye is bâ—â—ter then sacrifice and to hearken is better then the fatt of Rammes Mat xv Whereas they neglect nge gâ—des commaundementes that so they may set vp their owne traditions and going about moste vngodlye to sett the wisedome of god to schoole do bring in all maner of trâ—ssh trâ—ssh shippes full of dombe and beggerly ceremonies whiche they vrge with fire and sworde Wherin doeth consisterie outwarde worshipping of god and maintain them with al kinde oâ— cruel tâ—râ—â—nye Whereby the externe and outward worshippinge of god whiche consisteth in the preaching of the doctrine and in the right and due ministration of the sacramentes accordinge to the institution and ordeynaunce of our sauiour Iesu Christe and in the faythful prayers of the church is clen abolyshed and put downe Read the ouerthrow of the iustification of workes for that Howe peryllous a thinge it is to attempte to serue god otherwise than he himself doth appointe it is easye to see in the x. Chapyt of Leuiticus and in the ij booke of Samuel and syxt chapt and in the .i. boke of Cronicles xiii chapyter well this is most sure and certain that they do prefarre their wisedome before the wisdome of god â–ª which is a playne denial of god For yf he be not of a perfect wysdome he is no god Againe this that they do is a manifest forsaking of the couenaunt of the lorde A forsaking of the couenaunte of god Howe the aduersaries do coÌ„fesse christ Math. viii What it is to confesse Christe aright as it may be proued by manye places of the scryptures but specially by the xxij chap. of Ieremy the Prophete But now let vs come to their confession of our sauyour Iesu Christ How do they confesse him I pray you Euen as the vnclean spirytes did who euery where acknowledged him to be the sonn of god the sonne of the highest To confesse Christe a right then it is not onely to confesse him to be true and naturall god equall and of one substaunce with the father and to be true natural man equal and of one substaunce with vs beyng in al thinges lyke vnto his bretherne synne only excepted But to confesse and acknowledge him to be an omnisufficyent and moste perfect Sauiour of all those that beleaue in hys name and put their whole trust in the merytes of his death passion and bloudsheddinge and to be the onely mediatour betwixt God and men For therefore did he come Wherfore Christ came into the flesh Ioa. iii. Tâ—moth i Hel iu. vii Actes iiii and did take vpoÌ„ him our fraile nature that destroiyng the works of the diuel he should saue sinners most perfectly and to the vttermost I meane as manye as come vnto God by him so that there is none other name vnder heauen geuen vnto men wherin we muste be saued but the name of our sauiour Iesu Christe This therefore is oure confession and beleue that by the merites onelye of the death passion and bloodshedding of oure sauiour Iesu Christe being apprehended and taken holde vpon by faythe we obteyne full saluation forgeuenes of our synnes and deliueraunce from eternal and euerlasting damnation Whefore we do attryhute vnto him the whole glorye of the saluation of mankinde acknoweledgynge hym to be oure onelye mediatoure aduocate and intercessour accordinge to these scriptures I am the waye the trueth and the life â–ª Iohn
xiiii Io. â—vi no man cometh vnto the father but onely by me Whatsoeuer ye aske my father in my name it shal be geuen vnto you It is Christe which is deade yea Rom. viii rather whiche is risen again who is also att the right hand of the father and maketh intercession for vs There is one god and one mediatour betwixte god and man i. Timot. ii which is the man Christ Iesus who gaue himself a raunsome for all men the is able perfectly and sullye to saue theym that come vnto god by hym syth that he euer lyueth to make intercession for them Christe is not entred into the holy place Hebr. vii which is made with handes but in to heauen there to appeare in the sight of god for vs. Hebr. ix And againe These thinges do I write vnto you i. Io. ii that ye sinne not and if any man doeth sinne we haue an aduocate with the father Iesu Christe the righteous Wherunto the aduersarâ—es do attribute their saluacion But as for our aduersaries without anye warrant of gods worde yea against all scriptures they doe attribute the best parte of their saluation to their owne merites and to the workes of their own handes yea to such kind of works as neuer were commaunded of god and for asmuch as thei can not be of faith they are mere sinnes in the sight of god Is not this most blasphemous against the blood of christ that they be wont to singe in their seruice Tuper Thomae sanguinem quem pro te impendit O plasphemous abhomination fac nos Christe scandere quo Thomas ascendit That is O Christ do by the bloode of Thomas which he spent for thee make vs to ascende thether whither Thomas is ascended But why shoulde I â—e to tedious vnto youre honour in rehersing many suche thinges sith that all theyr bookes are full of such damnable blasphemies Doe they not attribute more vnto their â—oly father the Pope More is attributed vnto the pope than vnto our sauiour Iesu chrâ—st than vnto our sauiour Iesu Christe for they doe plainlye affirme that through fayth in our sauioure Iesu Christ we do onely obtain forgeuenes of the coulpe fault or giltines but not of the pun shment that is due vnto vt for our sinnes For that do they reserue to their holy father who alone for a pece of money is able to geue pardone a poe â—et culpa that is of the punishement and of the fault Yf this be not a denial of Christe I can not well tell what we maye call a denial of Christ for therfore came he in to the â—leshe that he might be our perfect and ful sauiour They then that denye hym to be a perfecte and full sauiour do deny him to be come into the fleshe i. Ioa. iiii and so by good right ought to be takeÌ„ for Antichristes I do here let passe that by their sacrilegious and damnable sacrifice of the masse The sacrifice of Christe is omnisufficente and can be offered no more wherein they saye they offer dailye oure sauoure Iesu Christe bothe god man they doe all that euer they can to abolyshe annichilate and put downe the omnisuffâ—ceÌ„t sacrâ—fice of our sauiour Iesu Christ which as it hath ben from the beginninge is now and shal be to the worldes end of a most perfect efficacy vertue streÌ„gth power to saue al those that put their truste in it or take hold vppon it by faithe Heb. ix so can it not be reiterated or offered any more For Christ is not entred into verye heauen there to appeare in the sighte of god for vs to the ende that he shoulde offer him self any more for then he must haue died often lens the world began He is that high priest that it became vs to haue which being holye Heb. vii harmelesse vndefiled separated from sinners and made higher than the heauens neded not daily as those high priestes to offer vppe sacrifice first for his owne sinnes and then for the peoples for that he did once when he offered vp him self How many mediatoures the aduersaries haue How many mediatours haue they imagined and sourged vnto them selues besides Christe the onely mediatour betwixt god and man So many as they doe imagine to be saintes in heauen so many mediatours haue they sourged vnto theÌ„ selues puttinge more confidence in their intercession â–ª wherof they haue no currentye or assuraunce at all in gods booke than in the mediation of the onely begotten son of god Which in so many places of the scriptures we are certified of that onles we be worse then brute beastes we ought to content ourselues with it to seke no farther Adde theruÌ„to To denye christ to be come into the fleshe that to acknoweledge more mediatoures besydes him it is also to deny him to be come into the flesh For he dyd not only come into the flesh for to be our omnisufficient and most perfecte sauyour but also for to be our only mediatour betwixt god and vs. Howe the aduersaries do alow the scriptures of the old and newe testament And as for the scriptures of the old and new testament yf they did froÌ„ the bottome of their hartes acknowledge theÌ„ to be the worde of god then would they also confesse and acknoweledge that all thynges partaynynge to saluation â—are conteined in the same Whiche thing they will neuer do lest their whole religion which coÌ„sisteth altogether in mens traditions and vain doctrines of diuels should be quite ouerthrowen Nowe to deny that all thinges peretining to our saluation are comptised in the scriptures It is to denye that they be the word of god yea they that do so They deny the holy ghost to be god that say that all things partaining to saluation are not conteyned in the scriptures do vtterly deny the holy ghoste by whole inspyratione the scryptures haue be a set fourth and wrytten to be true and naturall god For it is agaynst the property of god to make any worke of imperfectioÌ„ But that all things pertaining to our saluation be not fully conteyned in the scryptures then are they a worke of imperfection and consequently the autour of them which is the holy ghost is no true natural god Do thei not besides all this assubiectize the scryptures worde of god to the vayne glosses and found eâ—positions of their holye father the Pope so that although their exposityons be neuer so vngodly neuer so contrary to the true sense and meanyng of the holy spirit of god yet we must receyue and alowe theym for curraunt money â–ª except we wil fry a fagot Euen after the same sorte do they confesse the articles of our beleue mâ—king what gloses they lust vpoÌ„ theÌ„ although it be nothing according to the analogie of fa th from the which they do as faâ—re deferre as the heauens are hyghe aboue the earth It is
Iacob and what his meanyng was 49. Idolaters common complaint fo 67. Idolaters of our tyme. 68. Iosephe why he would haue his bones brought out of the lande of Egipt for 34 Iniurie that is doone by the aduersaries bothe to god and his sainctes fo 11. Iudes epistle fo 34. Images causes of diuision in the coÌ„mon wealthe of Israell and also in the empire fol. 105. L. Lactantius and his wordes fo 45. Luke why he is called a peiÌ„ter of som 78 M. Mary the virgine is no where in all the scriptures called the quene of heaueÌ„ 71. Many thinges dyd the olde aunciente fathers vse folio 97. Miracles doothe not proue the inuocation of sainctes folio 6. Moyses and the hystorie of his death and burying folio 33. Mischiefe that the contention aboute the Images dyd breede foli 106. None can be our mediatour except he be also our redemer fol. 18. O. Origenes wordes fol. 61. 96 Our shoote anker fo 23. Of the Crosse fol. 94. Osius a catholike fo 95. P. Paules answere to their reasons 89. Papistes argumentes beaten vppon their owne heades fo 26. and again in the .55 prayers of the lyuynge doo not healpe the deade foli â— Prayers that we make one for an other 25. Prayers are the sacrifices of the electe and chosen of God foli 44. Petrus Crinitus and his wordes fo 91. Preposterous deuotion fol. 104. Relikes of the dead sayntes fo 37 Ruffinus aleaged 64. 65. Reply of the aduersaries fo 83. S Salomons deede helpeth the Papists nothynge fo 81. Sainct Nicolas Sainte Leonarde fo 6. Saintes that be dead fo 28. Similitude fo 9. Similitude of the papist fol. 16. Spirituall fornication fo 66. Socrates saiyng touching the woorshipping of god fo 74. Serenus bishop of Massilia fo 82. T Tertullians wordes 37. 47. 95. There can be no true inuocation without faith fol. 4. The subtilty of the diuell fol. 7. The time of grace and the time of iudgement fo 22. The cannons and what they affirme 25. The auctoritye of goddes booke ought to be preserred before the auctoritie of angelles fo 37. The aungell of great counsayle fo 47. The place of the first chapiter of Zachary fol. 48. The fondnes of the aduersaries fo 54. The true meanynge of Iobs woordes in his .5 chapiter fol. 54. The faythfull lyuinge here on the earthe be sayntes fo 57. The doctrine intreated of in this boke 1. The faithfull call onely vpon god in their trouble sol 2. The preposterous honoring of the dead 70 The true honouring of saynctes fol. 70. The misses which the enemies do cast before the eies of the simple ignorant 71 The absurditie of the papistes argumentes fol. 7â— The errour of the women of Iuda fo 72 Theodosius and what his vision doth signify 64. and of his prayer fo 64. Three sortes of honoring of the saints 69 Two kyndes of prayers fol. 63. The preachers of the Pope fo 77. The righteous iudgement of god fo 78. The vanity of the enemyes fo 79. The sonne of God why he toke our frail nature on hym fo 85. The reason of Paules aduersaries fo 89 The liynge tales touchyng coniured water fol. 98. The image of Christ of all other is most perillous folio 91. Thre greate mischiefes that the ymages doo cause foli 1â—â— The conclusion of this booke fol. 106 W We haue no promise in all the whole bodye of the scriptures that the dead saints doo heare vs. fo 2. What was the let that this woorke came forth no sooner fo 1. What properties he oughte to haue that we must praye vnto fo 2. Whence the faith of true christians dothe come where vpon it is grounded fo 4. Where the spirites of the godly be fo 28. Whether the deade saintes oughte to bee worshipped fo 69. Whyles we lyue in this worlde wee are bounde to pray one for an other fo 62. Why the sonne of god did take vpon hym our fraile nature fo 18. Who they bee amonge whome the diuell worketh myracles fo 7. Why the Apostles were sente into the worlde folio 77. What we dooe learne by the decree of those emperours fol. 91. wherefore the Lordes supper was called collecta fol. 92. why the olde christians dyd vse the sygne of the crosse fol. 93 V Vigilantius and of the differeÌ„ce betwene him and Eunomins fo 39. ¶ Thus endeth the Table A strong batterie against the ydolatrous Inuocation of the deade Sainctes and agaynst the hauyng or settyng vp of Images in the house of prayer or in any other place where there can be any peryll of idolatrie made dialogue wise By Iohn Veron The speakers Albion Eutrapelus Philalethes Dydimus ALBION I remembre wel that after we had talked of the Prayers for the dead this vvork vvas done in the hunting of purgatorie in which talke was most learnedly proued by you that all the Prayers and good dedes taht the lyuing be able to make or doo for theim that be ones departed out of this worlde can profit theim nothyng at all We wer fully determined to haue talked likewise and reasoned of the prayers that are commonly made vnto dead Sainctes But beyng letted by other necessary fruitful coÌ„municatioÌ„ the matter could not yet be discussed this vvork vvas letted by the settyng forth of the doctrine of predestinatioÌ„ of free vvil and by the ouerthrovve of the iustification of vvorks Wherin notwtstandyng I se very many shamfully to erre I my selfe am scarcely yet persuaded in it by reason of the manifold textes of the scriptures authorities of the ancient fathers that my faithful guides of the clergie dyd allege bring in for to proue that we ought to pray vnto the dead Saintes that be already in glorie with their head our sauior Iesus Christ to take them for our mediatours aduocates intercessors Therfore I shal most hertily desire you brother Philalethes that ye will declare vnto vs your mynd touchyng the matter I meane whether we ought to call vpon any other The suÌ„me of the hole doctrine entreated of in all this boke thaÌ„ vpon the liuing God in the time of our nede and trouble And agayne whether we ought to acknowledge any mediators aduocates intercessors besides our sauior Iesus Christ whom ye doo euery where affirme to be our only mediator betwixt God vs. I wold fain be fully resolued in this matter Philaleth As concerning the first we do not rede in al the whole bodye of the scriptures that euer the true and faithful seruantes of god did in the time of their trouble cal vpon any other None of the faithefull seruantes of god didde euer call vppon any other in the time of theyr troubleth aÌ„ vppon the true liuing God than vpon the liuyng God the father of oure sauiour Iesus Christe Which ought to be vnto vs a sufficient doctrin For it is to be thought that if they had hadde any expresse word
These thyngs haue been doone among the heathen whose goddes were no gods but deuyls and that by the permission and suffrance of God because of their horrible idolatry that they dyd most shamefully wallow in But it foloweth not that the lyke may be done among the people of God Philalethes Answer It is moste manyfeste and playne that God doth permit and suffer Sathan to worke suche thynges among his people For dothe not God geue vnto false Prophetes power to worke miracles Deute 19. that so he may try and proue his people whether their loue him or not And whether they will stedfastly cleaue vnto his lawes And least it shold be said that this was don amoÌ„g the Iewes but that it is otherwise in the churche of Christ we haue an excellent prophecie of the holy apostle wher he saith on this maner 2. Thes 2 Than shall the wycked man be reuealed whom the Lord shall consume with the spirite of his mouth and shal abolishe with the bryghtnesse of his coÌ„ming eueÌ„ him whose coÌ„miÌ„g is by the woorkyng of Sathan with all power and signes and lying wonders And in all deceauablenesse of vnrightuousnesse emong theim that perishe because they receaued not the loue of the truthe that they myght bee saued And therfore god shal send them strong delusion that they should beleue lyes that all they might be damned whiche beleued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrightuousnesse Do we not lerne by these words of thapostle that in the later days there shall be wonders and signes in the kingdome of Antichriste And doubtlesse There bee vvonders and signes in the kingdome of Antichrist as they are by the rightous iudgement of God ordeined for to deceiue them that haue a delight in vnrightuousnesse so doo they also take away sicknesses and diseases that the vngodly contemners of the truth may the more be blynded and confirmed in their error Are not also these Christes wordes Many shall say to me in that day Lorde haue we not by thy name prophecied he we not by thy name cast out deuils and doone or wrought great miracles And theÌ„ will I confesse to them I neuer knew you Depart ye from me ye workers of iniquitie Mat. 24. And in an other place There saith he shall arise false Christes and false prophetes and shal shewe great signes and wonders so that if it were possible they shoulde deceaue the very elect It doeth sufficiently appeare by this that many times it cometh to passe not onely among the heatheÌ„ and Iewes but also in the chirche of God that by the inuocation of them that are no Goddes not a fewe haue ben and are healed Yet no man ought thervppon to conclude that it is laufull in the time of trouble to call vpon any other than vppon the true lyuyng God all creatures be they neuer so excellent beyng layde asyde Similitude Procreation of children doth not excuse vvhooredome no more doth the vvorking of miracles excuse the idolatrous inuocatioÌ„ of Saincts Eutrepelus I am of this opinion that miracles doo no more excuse the inuocation and worshippyng of Saintes than the conception gettyng or procreation of children can excuse adulterie whoredome although it be a miracle that the child is conceiued in the mothers woÌ„be that there it is norished and fed and at lengthe in his due tyme brought forth into the worlde and suche a myracle as can onely be doone and wrought by the diuine vertue and power of God Likewise he that stealeth bread or meat if he do eate it he shal bothe take away his hunger and also feede his bodye though this vertue and power to feede the body doeth onely perteyne to God Shall we therfore excuse whooredom adulterie and theft Didymus No maÌ„ I trow will be of that mynde Eutrapelus Howe can then the inuocation of Sainces which the whole scripture dooeth disauouche be excused by shewyng or workyng of myracles Therfore when thei say why should we not call vpon the Saintes sithe that many as we se dayly by experieÌ„ce haue ben bothe healed and also deliuered from the perills and dangers that they were in by that meane It is euen as if the horemoÌ„ger shold say Why shuld I not cleaue vnto a harlot sith the I do aswell get childreÌ„ of her as of a laufull wife or as if that these shuld likewise say Why should I toyle or labor sith that by stealyng I can helpe my necessitie nede As then it is not laufull for any man to seke to haue childreÌ„ by adultery and whoredom although meÌ„ may haue issu that way nor yet by pickyng stealing to helpe the necessities of his body althogh many do lyue by theft but it is the part of an honest maÌ„ to seke to haue issue by honest matrimonie wedlock by due labor to get his liuing so it is the dutie of a true christeÌ„ maÌ„ The abolishing of the similitude in what trouble peril or daÌ„ger so euer he be to seke for help deliueraÌ„ce not by the vnlauful calling vpon the dead Saints althogh many haue receaued their helth by it but by the faithful inuocation only of the true lyuing eternall god And as an honest man had lieffer to bee withoute childreÌ„ than to get them in aduoutrie whoredome Similitude and to byte his bread verye nere rather than to lyue by thefte and other vnlaufull meanes so he that feareth God vnfeignedly hath lieffer to suffer any kynde of affliction than to seke for healpe and deliuerance by the forbidden inuocatioÌ„ of dead creatures Albion Wel I graunt that the dead Sainctes ought not to bee called vppon as gods I meane that they ought not to be called vpon as thoughe they their selues should help vs A good Chift of the papistes â–ª in our troubles and aduersities but that wee ought to call vpon them as beyng our mediators aduocates and intercessors which doo make intercession vnto God for vs. Philalethes Where I pray you brother Albion haue ye learned this diuinitie So are we wont always to excuse the want or lacke of faith Whâ— doo we not rather praye vnto God out heauenly Father sith that in so many places he wil haue vs so for to doo Albion Iohn 9. Obie 4. Because we are sinners And ye know what the scripture saith Peccatores noÌ„ andâ—r Deus God heareth not synners but them that are obedient to his will Philalethes That we are sinners we haue that coÌ„mune with al mortall men For Answer 8 King â— 1 Iohn 1. A difference betâ—ixt sinners there is no man that synneth not And if we shold say We haue no sin we deceaue our selues and the truthe is not in vs. But this difference dothe the scriptures puâ—fe betwixte synners that some are always ready to â—â—pâ—nt whensoeuer they be eyther by the outwarde preachyng of Gods word or by the inwarde motion of the holy ghost moued therto and some agayne wyll neuer
the liuyng yea he dothe playnly affirme Sith that the dead sainctes knovve nothing of al that is done here it is in vain to pray vnto them QuestioÌ„ that they be vtterly ignorant what is don in the lyfe of men If this bee true as that can not be false which is proued by the holy scriptures truely the saluation necessitie either of the dead or of the liuyng is in vaine committed to the intercession of theim that know nothing therof We doo beleue in vayne that they doo pray vnto the Lorde for oure present necessite which know not that we are in any perill or daunger Didy And may not they haue intelligence vnderstandyng of our affaires eyther by the angels or by them that go away hence from vs or els by god himselfe Philalethes Answer Sithe that these wayes of reuelation are no where in the scriptures sett foorth vnto vs and therfore be most vncertaine Why should we It is folishnes to fly from that vvhich is certaine to â—hat vvhich is vncerâ—aâ—e I pray you flie from those thynges that are most sure most certaine and infallible vnto that which is doubtfull and not ones mencioned of in all the whole body of the scriptures Ye haue hearde how that this moste holy father sainct Augustine doth plainely confesse that the dead saintes doo not knowe our estate or the case that we bee in nor yet be careful ouer vs. Leauing then that whiche is without any grounde of the scriptures let vs stedfastly cleaue vnto that which is most surely grounded in gods boke wherin we are taught that the blessed soules of the elect and choseÌ„ of God do rest in peace beyng in glorie with their heade our sauiour Iesu Christ who alone is appoynted of god to be oure mediator aduocate and intercessor Albion But what will ye say to Hieromes clerkly sayenges ye see that he dothe plainly hold opinion that the dead saintes doo praye for vs. Philalethes As for Hierome Hovv Hierome dyd ouershote himself in this mater I doo with all due reuerento acknowledge him to do a most worthy instrument of God howbeit in this master he hathe declared him selfe that he was a man And verelye I doo meruayle that beeing so great a cleark as he was would buyld the doctrine of the praisyng of the deade saintes for vs vpon such weake argumentes For who wil say that the Saintes do nowe the same in heauen that they did in the erth But Hierome sayeth none other thing neither dothe he with any other arguments proue that the saints do pray for vs in heauen Hieromes vveake arguments Yf saieth he they did pray for vs in the earth how much more shall they do it now after their crounes Act. 27. victories and triumphes Yf two hundred lxxvi soules were geuen vnto Paule praiyng here in the earth how many mo shall be geuen vnto him praying now in heauen I graunte that god hath done good vnto men here in the earth through the ministery and praiers of his seruants VVhy god did good vnto men here in the earth by the ministerye and praiers of his seruauntes but to what ende I praye you euen to this ende that they should beleue the worde of god set foorth by his true ministers But the ministers dyd all with one doctrine teach vs to cal vpoÌ„ god only in al â—â—re necessities Nowe the doctrine of the praiers of the saints and of their intercession for vs in heauen doth pull vs away from god Hiero in Lâ—c 14. and causeth vs to put some truste hope and confidence in the creatures Which Hierome hym selfe doth stronglye impugne saiyng The righteousnes of the righteous shal bee vpon him and the wickednesse of the wicked shall remayne vpon him Euerye manne shall dye through his owne syn and euerye man shall liue through his owne righteousnesse Iohn 8. The Iewes do say in vayne â–ª Abraham is our father syth that they haue not the workes of Abraham Yf we should put our truste in any let vs put our trust in god liere 17. Psal 146. Cursed be euery man that putteth his trust in menne although they be saintes although they be prophetes We reade Put not your trust in men Again better it is to trust in god than in princes Not onely in the princes of the world but in the princes of the church whiche yf they be righteous they shall deliuer their owne soules onelye These are Hieromes woordes Let vs therfore hope in the lorde oure GOD and sith that we haue not one iote in the Canonicall Scriptures of the intercession of the Sainctes for vs in heauen nor any example that they do pray vnto the father for vs let vs boldely reiecting this idolatrous inuocation of the dead sainctes and the vaine and fonde doctrine of their intercession for vs vnto God cal vpon our heauenly father through his sonne Iesu Christ though an angell from heauen shoulde teache the contrarie I doo here let passe that in the boke which this holy father did write agaynste Vigilantius there is more furious bitternesse to bee founde than either modestie or learning whiche maye bee proued by the censure of Erasmus The censure of Erasmus vpon Hieromes booke against vigilantius whiche is this lo vigilantium ita conuitiis debacehator Hieronymus vt plusculum in eo modestiae eogar desyderare Vtinam argumentis duntaâ—at egisset à conuitiis temperasser That is Hierome doothe 〈◊〉 with reuilyng woordes raile against Vigilantius that I am fayne to fynde a larke of modestie in him would god he had onely soughten with argumentes and had refrained from reuilynge and opprobrious wordes For take away these railyng woordes Caupo Calagutitanus Dormitantius Herculis monstra Louiathan Behemoth The taunces of Hierom against vigilantius take away his chiâ—yng brawling and scoldyng take awaye his subtill conueâ—ance in the torrke Take awaye his exclamations translations tragicall amplifications his swellyng and braggyng wordes and nothing almost shal be left vnto the reader that hath anye sauor of the propheticall and apostolicall simplicitie Albion Obie 10 Yet this holy father dothe plainely affirme that the deuils dyd roare out at the relykes of Saint Andrew and that great myracles and wonders at the dust and ashes of the martyrs haue beÌ„ wrought and the vnclean spirites tormented Whiche thyng he dothe proue by the example of certaine emperors kynges and byshops saying If it be not laufull to shrine vp and to translate the relikes of the saintes then was Archadius with Constantine a sacriledge all the byshops were not only sacrileges but to be also coÌ„pted verye beastes foles which did cary so vile a thing and ashes in silke and in a golden vessell Philalethes As touchyng the firste Answer I answere that the diuels dyd not roare out because of saincte Andrewes drye bones VVhythe diuel did roaâ— ouâ—e at sainct An drevves reliâ—es but because of Christe whome the holy
matter For my mynde thankes be to god is well satisfied in it But my gentill men Of images dydde saye that ye do wonderfully hynder the deuotion of the people VVhy the pâ—â—istes vvill â—aue imaâ—es in their â—hurches in this that ye will haue neither the image of Christe nor of his mother the virgine Marye nor of the holye saints to stand in the churches nor in the places of praier For first and foremost they be the bookes of the lay people wher by the simple and ignoraunt doo learne many goodly thinges whiche withoute them they could not learne Whanne ye take theym awaye thenne saye my gentill men ye take away the bookes of the laye people and so cause theym still to remaine in blindnesse and ignorance Secondelye they are goodly meanes to stirre vp the heartes of the people to deuotion And ye know that the more meanes we haue to stir vp our heartes mindes to deuotion the better it is And therfore to put doun the image of Christ the image of the vyrgin Mary to put doune the images of the saints is to lesse or rather to putte doune the meanes that our forefathers haue apointed and ordeined for to stir vp the hearts and mindes of the symple and ignorant people vnto deuotion Phila. I wil be the shorter in this mater because that a godlye learned man and faithfull brother of oures hath set forthe three godly and learned homelies wher in this argument to so learnedly handeled and all thinges perteininge vnto it so profoundely discussed that it wil be in a maner thought to be but labour lost to meddell any more in this matter Albion I praye you brother Philalethes to tell me who it is that hath done it Philale Hearke in your eare Albion I knowe him very well We haue to sewe of such men in this realm The lord god shal rewarde him for this his good trauayle labour But in the meane while let vs heare what ye are able to saye to this that they dooe brynge for the maintenance of their images PHILALETHES Answer All that ye haue aleadged doo stande in twoo poinctes First that the images are the bookes of the laye people Secondlye that they are meanes for to stirre vppe the myndes of the symple and ignoraunte to deuotion The same touchynge ymages dydde Damascenus teache in hys .iiii. damascene gardiners chiefe refuge booke de orthodoxa fide and .17 chapiter and also Gregorye the greate in his Register or booke of Epistels 10. parte and fowerth Epistell but howe well and agreablye to the Scriptures let all the godly iudge Firste these are the woordes of the holye prophete Abakuk what profitteth the ymage â—ba 2. For the maker therof hathe made it an ymage and a teacher of lyes Whereby it foloweth that images are the bookes of lyes and that they comme of hym who is a lyar from the beginninge and the father of lyes Nowe well thenne are the simple and ignoraunte for whome oure Sauioure IESVS CHRISTE dydde vouchsafe to shed his deare heart bloud The simple and ignorant are vvell prouided for vnder the pope Hiere 10. prouided for when such bookes are deliuered vnto them in steade of the liuelye preachyng of gods worde It is not for naught that Hieremye doth cry out They altogether dote and are foolishe for the stocke is a doctrnne of vanitye Dydimus What meaneth he by that PHILALETH Because the people thought that to haue ymages was a meane to serue GOD and to brynge theim to the knowledge of him he sheweth that nothyng more displeaseth God nor bryngeth man into greater errours and ignoraunce of GOD therfore he calleth theym the doctryne of vanitye and the worke of errours as Abakuk as ye hearde afore callethe theym the teachers of lyes Who in the same Chapiter thundreth oute agaynste the wycked opinion of theym that call theym the bookes of the laye people on this manner Wo vnto hym that sayethe vnto the woode awake and vnto the damme stone ryse vppe Shoulde the same teache Beeholde it is layed ouer wyth golde and syluer and there is no breathe in it But the lorde is in his holy temple As yf he shoulde say There is no breathe no life nor mouing in the images How should they teache then Therfore it is a meere vanitye and fondenesse to sette forth ymages vnto the people for theyr teachers scoole maisters sithe that the liuing god who is the true teacher is in the myddest of hys temple that is in the hearte of the faithfull teachynge those thinges that are both profitable euerlasting Wherunto maye be added this saiyng of Saint Paule 2. Cor. 6. What agreement hath the temple of god wyth ymages but ye are the temple of the lyuing god who liueth worketh in you More credite ought to be geuen to these testimonies of the prophetes and of the Apostels thanne to the vayne gloses of all Gregories and Damascenes in the world Albion Yet ye can not deny but that they be meanes to stirre vp the hartes of the simple and ignoraunt people vnto deuotion Philalethes This is but a vayne saying For the heartes of the faithfull are onely stirred vppe to godlynes by the holy spirite of god whiche as he worketh inwardelye in the heart hauynge these externe and outewarde meanes that is to say the preachynge of gods worde Images are meanes to stirre vp the heartes of men not to deuotion but to idolatrous superstition and the right ministration of the Sacramentes so did he neuer coumpt images emong his meanes but rather in all places doeth streightly forbydde them with terrible and dredfull threatnynges agaynst them that of a selfe will will styll for the causes by you rehersed haue and maintain theim to the great hyndraunce of true godlynesse and to the aduancement not of deuotion but of diuellishe and ydolatrous superstition Eutrape All men that haue any sparke of sounde reason and iudgement in their heades muste needes meruaile at the beastlynesse of these men for I woulde fayne knowe of them when our sauior Iesus Christ dyd sende his Apostles foorthe into the worlde whether dyd he sende theim to bee paynters caruers and makers of ymages and not rather to preache the gospel vnto euery reasonable creature VVhy the apostelles vvere sent into the vvorlde We do reade no where that they dyd carye about ymages or that they dyd vse anye other outwarde signes thanne the ryghte and due ministration of the Sacramentes accordyng to the institution and ordaynance of their maister and sauiour Iesu Christe Saint Paule in the iii. chapiter of the epistle to the Galathians dothe with an exclamation speake thus vnto them O foolyshe Galatians who hath bewitched you that ye should not obeye the truth beefore whose eyes Iesus Christ was afore paynted oute and crucified among you that is To whome Christ was so liuely preached as yf his lyuely ymage were set beefore your eyes or as
to their owne reason the glorie of God should better be knowen if god were manyfested and reuealed rather by the liuyng and reasonable creatures than by the vnlyuyng and vnreasonable Wherin they doo woorke great vngodlynesse to their owne destruction Albion I heard ones this place alleadged but answere was made agayne Replye of the aduersaries Aunsvvere to it that Athanasius dyd write against the Gentils and heathen And that therfore this place maketh nothyng against them Philalethes And I say that as these wordes are written against the heathen so may thei be alleaged agaynst them that do bryng in the gentilisme or heathenyshe fashyons And what is seene I praye you in our pictures and ymages besydes the stuffe that they bee made of and shape that is geuen vnto them They say that the forme or shape that is geuen vnto them dooth signifie and teache But I wold fayne knowe of them The ymages do neither teache he learned not yet the vnlearned Ergo they â—e vnprofitable whome their ymages and pictures do teache the learned or the vnlearned I am sure they can not teache the vnlearned onelesse they haue an interpreter behynd them For the vnlearned without a teacher shall neuer bee able to learne what is signified or represented by the ymage of the virgine Mary nor yet by the ymage of the Crucifixe The learned hathe no neede at all to learne of pictures and ymages the same whyche he hathe moste certaynely learned by goddes woorde What shall they bee able to saye to his that the chiefest mysteries of our religion can be expressed with no colours For with what pencelle shall they bee able to expresse the vertue of oure redemption The chiefe misteries of our saluation can not be expressed by anye ymage the glorie of the life to come the imitation of vertues and the obedience of the woorde Lette vs therefore contente oure selues wyth the moste trewe Teacher I meane the holy ghost which doth teach vs with the worde of lyfe and with the Sacramentes ordeyned by the eternall wysedome of god Wherby all thinges perteining to our saluation my plainly be sette forthe vnto vs and receaued or vnderstanded of theym that be not voide of the spirite of god Dydimu Yet no answer hath bene made to this their obiection where they say that although it was not lauful in the olde time to expresse God with an ymage bicause he was not yet sene in a humain forme or shape yet sith beyng incarnated he was made lyke vnto vs in all thynges sinne onely beyng excepted it is laufull for to haue an ymage of hym Philalethes Answer to the .32 obiection Dan. c 7. What wyll they say to this place of Daniell The auncient of daies did sytte whose garment was white as snowe and the heares of his head lyke the pure wolle And by and by after As I behelde in visions by nyght beholde one lyke the sonne of man came in the cloudes of heuen and approched vnto the ancient of the dayes and they brought hym before hym Reade ye besides the 33. and fower and thirtie chapiter of Exodus and the sixte chapiter of Esaie In the meane while none of the auncient prophets or of the holy men of god did set vp an ymage vnto the father or vnto the sonne neither did attempt to represente hym by any symilitude or shape made after the lykenesse of man And what other thyng dyd lette them to doo it but the playnenesse of the commandement of God The sonne of god did not take vpoÌ„ him our frayle natâ—re to the ende that he should breake goddes lavve or be painted and the reuerence that they bare vnto it Neither did our sauiour Iesus Christ take vpon hym oure humaine nature for to breake the lawe of God or for to geue vnto paynters a paterne or profe of their arte but for to be the pledge of the grace of GOD of the eternall couenaunt and of the coniunction that is betwixt GOD and vs and that he myghte haue what to offer for vs for the price of our redemption declare what we mortall meÌ„ ought to hope for For therfore did he rise again and dyd carye vp into heauen the body that he toke of vs that we shoulde beleue and be fully persuaded that oure bodies shall ones bee translated and taken vp from this vale of myserye being glorified into the euerlastynge kyngedome of heauen Nowe as muche as the body doothe excell or is better then the shadow so muche doothe the thyng whiche is represented by the signe better than the signe Note this But the flesshe of our sauiour Iesu Christe if it had remained here after the mysterie of oure saluation was fulfilled hadde profited vs nothyng muche lesse shoulde the liniamentes picture or image of the body of our sauior Iesu Christ doo vs any good As touchyng his diuine nature he is coequal and of one substance with the father But Esaie in the .xl. chapiter All nations sayth he before hym are as nothyng and they are counted to hym lesse than nothynge and vanitie To whome then will they like God or what similitude will ye sette vp vnto hym Dydimus Obie 33 I holde my selfe content with this answere But what saye ye to this whiche I hearde but a while ago I was in a place where we entred into disputation concernynge these wordes Idole and Image And there some did affirme that ye do them great wrong in this that ye call their images Idoles Where as there is a greate difference betwixte them For by this word eidole they do vnderstaÌ„d the representation of a thyng that is not but this word Image which sometymes of the Latins is called simulachruÌ„ is the representation of a thyng which is in deede Phila. Answer This am I sure they can not denie but that where soeuer the 70. interpreters haue this word cidolum ydole Hierom dyd translate it simulachruÌ„ an image And in his eleueÌ„th boke of his coÌ„mentaries vpon Esaie Hierome vpon these wordes of Ezechias prayer Thou onely arte the God of all kingdomes Their goddes are no gods but the workes of mens handes wood and stones He did sayeth he boldely pray vnto the Lorde and doothe affirme hym to be the onely lyuyng God Whereby we doo vnderstande that eidoles are the ymages of dead men So farre Hierom. A strong argumente again t the papistes Now will I thus reason with them Are not theyr images the images of dead meÌ„ but eidoles ar the images of dead men therfore their images are but eidols It is plaine thaÌ„ the eidolu â— simulachruÌ„ that is an idol an image be all one thiÌ„g Erasmê° Erasmus in his annotations that he did make vpon the new Testament which worke is so hyghly commended by their holye father pope Leo the tenth writeth on this maner Thomas de Aquino doothe bryng a newe difference betwixt Idâ—lum an ydole and simulachrum an ymage because that an
Galati 1. But what shall they wynne by it Yf an aungell from heauen shoulde preache vnto me any other Gospell than hathe bene preached he shal be vnto me Anathema that is to saye Tertullian de praese iphaereticoruÌ„ accursed Are not these Tertullians wordes We ought to indulge or brynge nothyng of our owne heade neyther to chose that which anye man hath brought in of his owne head or of his owne brayne We haue the Apostelles for our authors which dyd not those of their owne braynes what they should bring in but didde faithfully assigne and delyuer vnto nations that whych they receaued of the Lord. Therfore yf an aungell from heauen shoulde preache any other Gospell vnto vs we would pronounce it to be accursed Are not also these Hieromes wordes Hiero. in Ma ca 23. Quod de scripturis non habet autoritatem eadem facilitate contemnitur qua probatur That is That which hath no auctority out of the scriptures or by the scriptures maye as easely bee contemned as it is proued Ambro. de virginibus lib. 4. Ambrose also writeth on this maner We do by good ryght condemne all newe thinges that Chryste hath not taughte For Christe is the waye vnto the faythefull Yf therfore CHRISTE hath not taught that whyche wee doo teache wee dooe also iudge it execrable â–ª heare also what Origene sayeth Wee haue neede to brynge the Scriptures for a witnesse Orige ho. â— in â—â—e For oure meanynges and exposicions wythoute these witnesses haue no credite These testimonies and autorities of the forefathers do sufficientlye proue that the olde aunciente writers oughte no farther to bee beeleued than they dooe brynge Goddes woorde for theyr warraunte But in all these auctorities that bothe youre angelicall writer and also Ossus dothe brynge what warraunt of Goddes worde haue they DYDIMVS Obi. 36 Augu. 11 â—ctâ— 118. in Ioannem I doo thynke none other but that ye wyll attribute muche to Sainte Augustyne as to hym whom all menne do acknowledged to be one of the chiefe pyllours of the churche But these are his very wordes What is it that all menne doo knowe the sygne of Chryste Whyche sygne yf it bee not made eyther in the foreheades of theym that dooe beeleue or in the water wherewyth wee are regenerated or in the oyle wherwyth wee are annoyncted or in the sacrifice wherwyth they are fedde and nourysshed none of all these things is rightly done What coulde be spoken more playnely than this Eutrapelus Answer In deede this is plainly spoken But where is the scripture or woorde of God that he doothe bryng for his warraunt Heare nowe what he saieth hym self Neither ought we to take the disputations of all men Augu. episto ad fortuna 111. howe catholike soeuer and commendable they be as the Canonicall scriptures as though we may not safe the reuerence that is due vnto suche men improue and refuse any thing of their writynges if we fynd that they haue ment otherwise than the truthe dooth alow beyng by the help of God founde by vs or by other And in an other place I am not moued with the authoritie of this epistle For I do not take the letters of Cyprian as the canonical scriptures but I do try his writings by the canonical scriptures Contra Cresâ—on gâ—â—maâ—◠〈◊〉 2. c 32. And whatsoeuer in them dooth agree with thâ— autoritie of the holy scriptures I doo receaue it with his coÌ„mendation and what so euer doothe not agree with goddes woorde I doo by his good leaue refuse it Manny other places myght I alleadge out of this auncient Father but these with the rest alleadged before shall suffise to proue howe farrefoorthe menne be they neuer so excellente oughte to bee credited Nowe lette vs cope sommewhat nearer with oure ennemyes where in all those places that they bothe doo alleadge is there any iote or syllable of goddes woorde But the Doctoures wyll bee beleued but as farre foorthe as they doo brynge Goddes worde for theyr warraunt therefore in all those authorities that they haue brought I maye choose whether I wyll beleeue theym or not Howe manye thynges haue beene vsed by those forefathers whyche afterwardes haue been abolished In Tertullians tyme Many thinges did the olde mei fathers vse vâ—hich by good right are novv out doune mylke and honye was geuen and offered vnto theym that were baptised Bothe in Cyprians and in saynt Augustine tyme they mynistred the communion vnto younge infantes and babes But yet all these thynges haue beene by good ryghte abolysshed so maye it bee of all other thynges that haue been vsed withoute the woorde of GOD as is theyr consecrated or holye oyle whych which they called Chrisme the signe of the crosse and other lyke thynges that haue no expresse commaundemente in Gods booke Dydimus Obie 37 Howe chaunceth that by the signe of the Crosse as they say the diuels and vncleane spirites haue ben dryuen away if it bee not allowed of God nor yet by his worde EVTRAPELVS Answer It maye be that this as all other myracles was graunted for a tyme for to get more authoritie vnto the doctrine of the gospell and vnto the christian religion emonge the vnbeleuyng Gentiles Chr. 49 in Ma. 24. ca Augu. lib 1. â—etract ca. 23. but nowe yea a greate whyles sens as bothe Chrysostome and Augustine dooth testifye the woorkynge of myracles is ceassed So that nowe we oughte rather to take good heede vnto oure selues leste we be seduced and deceaued by Sathan the dyuell and made to put oure truste where no truste is to bee putte What crossynge I praye you doo the coniurers charmers and sorcerers of oure tyme vse I doo not denye but that the vncleane spirites make sometimes as thoughe they were wounderfullye scarred with theyr crossynge But wherefore is this but for to brynge theyr diuellyshe arte whereof the vncleane spirites theyr selues are authors to greater credite To bee shorte they go aboute by this doctrine to make vs to leane that wherein our whole truste oughte to bee and to put oure truste in thynges of naught Ye know what lyeng tales we haue hearde of theyr coniured water of what vertue power The lvinge â—ales touching coniured vvater and strength it hathe been for to dryue awaye vncleane spirites where soeuer it shoulde bee sprinkeled so that they dydde mooste sacrilegeously attribute vnto theyr beggarlye inuentions the same that oughte onely and solely to be attributed vnto the bloode of our sauyour Iesu Christe beeyng thorough faythe and by the myghtye operation of the holye ghoste sprynkeled in our consciences Exo. 12 For as the bloode of the lambe beeyng stryken on the twoo poastes and vppon the vpper poste of the doore of the Hebrewes houses dydde keepe of the destroyer not beecause that the bloudde of a brute beaste had any suche vertue of it selfe but beecause it was the Lordes Instytution buylded on his woorde and thorough faythe obeyed of the