I haue appointed watchmen Isay 62.6 all the daie and all the night foreuer they shall not hould their peace It is not said they shall not hould their peace if they doe not sleepe according to your drowsie glosse or if they will not speake the word of God but absolutelie it is said they shall not hould their peace And thus much of the first Iohn 14. v. 16.17 32. The second place doth containe our Sauiours will as I said the words are these I will aske the Father and he will giue you another Paraclete that he may abide with you for euer the Spirit of truth whome the world cannot receaue because it seeth him not neither knoweth him but you knowe him because he shall abide with you and shall be in you v. 26. The Paraclete the holie Ghost whom the father will send in my name he shall teach you all things aÌ„d suggest vnto you all things whatsoeuer I shall saie vnto you â—6 chap. v. 12.13 Yet many things I haue to saie vnto you but you cannot beare them now but when he the Spiritt of truth commeth he shall teach you all truth For he shall not speake of himselfe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but what things soeuer he shall heare he shall speake In these words obserue with me seaueÌ„ things the first is who seÌ„deth Iesus Christ the soÌ„ne of God secondlie whom he sendeth another comforter the holie Ghost the Spiritte of truth thirdlie to whome he sends this comforter and Spirit to the Church he was to leaue behinde him here one earth consisting of Apostles aÌ„d Pastors persons visible by their function and office Fourthlie how this Spirit is to be with them to abide in this Church and to remanie with it Fiftlie to what end all this to teach them the truth Sixtlie Some pro are so Wise as to exclude teaching and say the spirit was left only to coÌ„fort not to teach what truth and how much whatsoeuer I shall saie to you what things soeuer he shall heare All truth Seauenthlie for how long For euer All this is in the text and therfore our position is most true that the Church hath diuine assistance in the proposition of the faith 33 I must tell you moreouer first that God with a fewe words can signifie many things his comprehension being infinite and he knowing all the significations and vses of all words And next that I take these words of Iesus Christ in the whole fullnes of their sense and meaning though some Interpreters haue contented themselues to put a part of it onelie downe hauing not then occasion as wee haue now to searth further In the Church are people and Pastors the Spiritte assists all some to teach aÌ„d to gouerne others to obaie and to be directed Some are predestinate aÌ„d with these the spiritte continues to perseuerance some are not but for a tyme beleeue and this by the assistance of the spiritte And some of them are teachers allso and gouernours aÌ„d in this kinde do participate allso the assistance of Gods Spirit who disposeth all as he pleaseth diuiding his guifts aÌ„d graces among men to his glorie and the good of the predestinate In fine all those whose names are written in the booke of life perseuere finallie So that the Spirit leades them further to the state of glorie and there shewes them all truth in it selfe abiding so with them for all eternitie 34. But now let vs heare what you saie to this place First you saie it is promised to the Apostles in their owne persons onelie This is false first because it is promised to remaine with them for euer whereas the Apostles in their owne persons were not to liue euer heere and perpetuall coexistence of two extreames includes a perpetuall existeÌ„ce of each of them as I noted before vpon the like occasion it is to them therfore and to their successors after them without ending at any tyme and so foreuer Secondlie by the end of the graunt the same is euident for the Church now a daies stands in neede of this Assistance as well as it did then and in some respects more because it is greater and the like it is of other ages and will be still to the worlds end since therefore the prouidence of our Sauiour for the establishment of his Church and saluation of his elect is perfect the graunt holds according to the letter and is so to be vnderstood as the word stands foreuer 35. Next you saye the sence is the Spiritte teacheth the Church all the truth that is taught her If I should tell you that my master in England did teach me all languages aÌ„d coÌ„fesse afterwards they were but two that he taught me you would thinke sure that I did lie for two be not all Yet would you haue the Scripture to speake in this manner But I answeare that the words of Scripture are plaine he shall teach all whatsoeuer I shall say to you whatsoeuer he shall heare all truth ch 14. v. 26 Ch. 16. v. 13 And I thinke if I should giue you all my bookes you would not be contented if my executors should giue you the tenth part with this interpretation of the will I giue you all that is all which are giuen you and then define what that is among themselues as you doe in the matter of fundamentall points but of this hereafter 36. The third waie of eluding the place is to saie that in heauen the Spirit teacheth all truth but not here That in heaueÌ„ he teacheth all I knowe well but you erre against the scripture in denying that he teacheth all truth heere Reade the text and you shall see that our Sauiour sendeth the Spirit vnto the militant Church from which he meant to withdrawe his visible presence to the Apostles left in the world and to their Successors to comfort them in his absence to reduce vnto their minde what he had said and to assist and teach them all truth The Spiritte of truth saith excellentlie S. Cyrill will lead vnto all truth Cyrill Alex li. 10. in Ioan. cap. 41. for he knoweth exactlie the truth whose spirit he is and hath reuealed it vnto vs not in part onelie but entirely for though in this life wee know in part onelie as S. Paul saith 1. Cor. 13. not an imperfect but the entire truth hath shined vnto vs in this litle knowledge * The Obiects of the Churches faith as the Trinitie the Incarnation c. may be knowne either obscurely by faith or cleerely by vision The former of these is an vnperfect knowledge of them the latter is perfect As he that beleeues all the Conclusions in Euclide for the Authoritie of Schollers who generally agree in them knowes them vnperfectly but he that can demonstrate them knowes them perfectly To both the foresaid knowledges the holy Ghost doth leade the Church to the former heere on earth to the later in heauen Of the
they might securelie beleeue what the first age by generall consent had taught The Church in the third age did beleeue the same of the Church in the first and second ages and thus euer succeeding worlds of people did beleeue of the Church in all ages before their tyme. Thus it hath bene beleeued Thus hath the possession of the diuine legacie receaued at first by vndeniable heires the Apostles bene kept by the Church these sixteene hundred yeares 46. In this Church haue beene infinite people pastors innumerable great deuines graue Fathers the Reuerēce of Antiquitie ād Flower of learning In it haue bene all the true Martyrs that euer suffered for Iesus Christ all the contemplatiues all the Saincts and predestinate all the Apostles all holie people that haue bene since the sōne of God came downe into the world to redeeme and instruct man And the spirit of all these condemnes you ād your Spirit as being opposite to the Spirit of the pastors of Gods Church to the Spirit of auncient fathers to the Spirit of Gods elect to the Spirit of Apostles and Euangelists who beleeued all that the Church whereof they were had the Assistance of Gods holie Spirit 42. Will you see your aduersaries all at once men staie not longe in this world some die more are borne so that mankind like a flood runnes on and euerie one is a part a drop in this flood The vnderstanding onelie can staie in it selfe and make all at once stand before it Assemble therfore in your vnderstanding the Catholique Church of all former ages and looke then on the companie and see them all against your selfe Behold a Councell for wee haue abstracted these men the Church I meane from tyme and place diffusing it in which consideration the vnion of the parts in beleefe and their communion doth remaine therefore I saie againe behold a Coūcell Oecumenicall the most ample the most learned the most reuerend that euer was Wherein are all the Bisshops of Asia Africke and Europe before Luther I except only confessed Heretiques All the auncient Fathers all the great Deuines all the Pastors that haue bene in the space of fifteene hundred yeares confessed Heretiques excepted all the Martyrs of Iesus Christ all the Saincts and Predestinate all the Apostles all the Euangelists and people infinite In the middest of this great Councell is the holie Ghost the Spirit of Truth mouing all as he pleaseth and by his operations keeping the truth manifest And the President of it is Iesus Christ the naturall Sonne of God God and man All these condemne your doctrine your Spirit is against the Spirit of all these and therefore by Christian people to be condemned and abhorred 43. I am no Rhetoritian I doe not amplifie I haue prooued all that I doe saie And here end this Chapter wishing you to consider well what I haue said hetherto for diuine assistance And if you vnderstand it well as God graunt you may you will see that it cannot be denied without contempt of all the Christian world without contradicting the Spirit of the predestinate without opposition to knowne Saincts in the matter of diuine religion without giuing the lie to the Apostles Euangelists and prophets and finallie without open iniurie to the Father the Sonne and the holie Ghost who haue each their peculiar interest in the matter the Sōne in intreating the Father in sending and the holie Ghost in comming Wherby this transcendent Principle of diuine assistāce doth relie peculiarlie vppon the whole Trinitie which is the prime Veritie and origen of created vnderstanding THE THIRD CHAPTER That the Argument is not answeared by the distinction of fundamentall and not fundamentall 44. THat you may haue some thing to say and conceale your vnsufficiēcie from such as are not Schollers you put in here a distinction of fundamentall and not fundamētall points and thinke to stoppe our mouthes with one peece of the distinction Some of your fellowes expresse themselues in other termes but in sense you meete Your answeare is that the Church hath infallible assistāce to fundamentall points not to others Concerning the fundamentall points you are not yet agreed most commonly you thinke that they are the chiefe poīts in the three Creeds And agree all that they are very fewe Some will haue fower others six others eight suppose with the most that they be twelue According to your distinction the Spirit doth assist the Church infalliblie to these points and hath done so euer It remaines now that I adde a word or two touching the rest 45. I am therefore to proue a further assistance of the Spiritte then to sixe or twelue pointes which you call fundamentall and first my Argumentes which I made in the former Chapters are not answeared by your distinction but proue stronglie that Gods assistance is to all and your answeare which makes a wide exception whereas the Scripture hath none at all is first without groūd in the Scripture You should haue showne your distinction there if you had expected beleefe for men may not presume to make exceptions at their pleasure in the generall rule of God Secondlie it leaues the world without satisfaction in the matter of controuersies for you leaue noe meanes at all to make an end of the For example to end the controuersies betwixt vs and you you leaue noe meanes at all Not the assistance of Gods Spiritte for you saie they are in matters not fundamentall and that our Church in fundamentalls neuer erred Nor the witte of man for all men if not assisted may erre in diuine matters Nor the testimonie and iudgment of Antiquitie for if they were certaine of these matters it was either by their owne Wittes and these without Gods assistance might erre or it was by the assistance of the Spiritte to these pointes which is agaīst the doctrine of your distinction Nor is there any other way found either in the dispositiō of Gods Prouidence for this is the thing would ouerthrowe your distinction or in the witte of man 46. Thirdlie this doctrine of yours is against the perfection of our Sauiours prouidence for all powerfull and wise persons establishing a perpetuall common wealth take order for the peace and vnitie of it since diuision is the ruine of the publique weale And our Sauiour as you haue heard before hath instituted a spirituall common wealth to last foreuer wherefore if he hath not ordained meanes for the peace and vnitie of it his prouidence hath ben deficient and this commō wealth of his with infinite diuisions arising about the most obscure rule or lawe which he hath left will be torne into peeces and so perish and not be perpetuall as he intended it should be Againe diuisions and Schismes are not onelie in points by you esteemed fundamētall as appeareth cleerelie by your schisme And Gods rule or written word containes not only things fundamentall in that sense as you may see in the Scripture wherein are other points of doctrine and
by diuine Reuelation that he is in the Church euer teaching all Truth as I haue declared at large and I haue declared also which is the Church of God but wee haue no diuine Reuelation that he is in N. N. in Iohn Caluin Yea wee knowe he is not in him because he contradicts the Spirit in the Church this Church the Fathers had instruction to the iudgment of this communitie the greatest iudgments did euer stoupe Their practise doth so demonstrate Their books for them confesse it still And this is our practise allso this is our resolution wee confesse it wee professe it wee rest in the iudgment of Gods Spirit in the Catholique Church and to this Tribunall be you neuer so vnwilling you must allso come as I haue declared in this booke and here all * Cōtrouersie must be determined Wee doe not flie the Scripture wee haue it wee haue the Reuerence of Antiquitie on our side and reason pleads for vs but here the cause is ended When you do question the reall presence iustification by woorks S. Peeters primacie and alleage Scripture wee do likewise alleage Scripture and so pregnant that you cannot reallie answeare and then alonge wee goe to be iudged by the diuine spirit in the Church where wee are certaine he is and teacheth all truth When you say this or that booke is not Scripture this was or was not receaued in the primitiue Church the sēse of the letter is this or that Wee examine all and then appeale to to the Spirit in the Church where wee are sure he is suggesting all whatsoeuer the Sonne of God hath reuealed and taught to be receaued and beleeued of men When you pretēd that our doctrine is against reason against holy Fathers against Antiquitie wee produce testimonies of auncient Fathers and reason for our side and then submit the cause to the Spirit in the Church which looking on all truth can iudge best what is most conformable to reason to the Fathers to all Antiquitie And when you say that the Councells contradict one another that there are contradictions in the Scripture Wee are satisfied in these points allso by the Spirit in Church as being the highest Iudge of all cōtrouersies of infinite vnderstanding and no lesse infinite veracitie So that all particular Controuersies do runne into this generall Principle to be resolued and this Principle wee haue in plaine termes from the mouth of God THE FIFT CHAPTER Wherein some exceptions are answeared 82. THe obiections which you and your fellowes make are partlie against the infallibilitie of the Catholique Church in it selfe and partlie against the infallibilitie of generall Councells where Bisshops are assembled out of all Countries to determine commonlie by diuine assistance what belongs to faith and what is cōtrarie therevnto Of this second part it being not the whole Church formallie in it selfe whereof I haue intreated hetherto but the whole in representation onelie as deuines tearme it I will speake a word or two hereafter And will answeare that heere which you bring against the first which is the matter wee haue in hand You are to shewe not that some particular man or some part of the Church might fall of and leaue to be part of the Catholique not-erring Church for that wee see cleerelie in your masters Luther Caluin and others which once were Catholiques ād in the Church of Englād which was in the communion of the Church for a thousand yeeres together and by that communiō Catholique as being then part of Gods Church And is now fallen into schisme and Heresie but you must proue that the Catholique Church may erre in faith or to vse your owne termes that all the Church of God may be in errour affirming and beleeuing contrarie to that which is true in faith 83. And first I obserue that if you did vnderstand your owne principles you would dispaire of the successe of your owne arguments because by those principles of yours all that you can say may iustlie be contemned This I demonstrate for you will either prooue this doctrine of the Churches infallibilitie in the sense wherein wee defend it to be an errour fundamentall or to be some other errour not fundamentall The first you cannot pretend without contradicting your selfe presentlie for you saie allso that the Church cannot erre in fundamentalls and that ours in fundamētalls doth not erre granting withall when you are well vrged that ours is the Church and if you should start backe and denie it againe you will finde it vnder double proofe in another place The Second you cannot as much as pretend to prooue and demonstrate in your principles because according to thē you can take no meanes whereof you are certaine not reason for all men may erre in obscure matters nor Fathers for in your principles all might erre nor place of Scripture for you haue no meanes to knowe certainlie that it is the word of God the place not being one of your fundamentalles nor the Spirit because in not fundamentalls he assisteth not as you say and maintaine in this question or if he doth assist in this verie matter whether you call it fundamentall or not fundamentall he doth assist the Church for to the Church is the promise made 84. Thus you very wiselie haue ouer reached your selfe and left your selfe no meanes to prooue any thing against vs either in this controuersie or in any other for fundamentallie you confesse wee haue not erred and in other things by your owne principles you are not certaine Yet to gull the people you bringe texts not fundamentall according to your distinction and cry out Scripture Scripture the Gospell the word of God And if you finde a place in S. Augustine which neither your parishioners nor your selfe doe vnderstand you challenge vs to the Fathers whereas in your conscience you beleeue for certaine neither Fathers nor scripture but onelie some places which you call fundamentall neither do you acknowledge anie meanes in the world either from God or man to be sure of things not fundamentall as you tearme them as I haue shewed before and the same these your protestant arguments which followe would faine prooue 85. The first argument to this end is made against the Church in the state of the old lawe before the cōming of the Messias and therfore is nothing to the purpose because wee speake of the Christian Church as it is established by Iesus Christ and gouerned by his Spirit which Church is not limited vnto one Nation onelie but ouer all the world and therefore Catholique and of this I haue proued and wee do beleeue that in faith it is infallible Notwithstanding to maintaine the infallibilitie of the Iewish Church too before the Messias came which is an other questiō I resolue your doubt made against it You say the people of Israel did adore the brazen calfe therefore the Church all did erre You should haue prooued that all did adore the calfe that Moyses and the Leuites
q. 5. c. 17. The Scripture Isay 59 2â— My words that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy Mouth and out of the mouth of thy seede and out of the mouth of the seede of thy seede saith our lord from this present and for euer The same place your brother Puritan doth allso contradict in denying a perpetuall visible Church Wee beleeue that the Church is assisted by the holy Ghost to all truth You say No And so do all Hereticks Our Sauiour in the Scripture Io. 14.16 16. v. 13 I will giue you another Paraclete that he may abide with you for euer the Spirit of Truth he shall teach you all truth 55. Thus I am come in fine to the first againe which doth confirme all the rest RemeÌ„ber what I said in the begining of this Chapter in so much that what I haue here shewed in the last place out of Scripture doth prooue that the Church doctrine deliuered by word of Mouth is all true whether it be written downe in the Bible or be not for these places of Tradition by word the word of God euer in the mouth of the Church and the Spirit suggesting and teaching all truth are not limitted in the Scripture to writing as in the text you see And therefore now I repeate my argument made in the begining of this Chapter If the Scripture doth formallie auouch our doctrine and denie yours in the maine points wherein wee differ Arg. it is euidentlie vnpossible for you or any man breathing to make it euident by the Scripture that the Apostles and primitiue Church were of your Religion not of ours or that yours is true ours false But the Scripture doth auouch our doctrine and denie yours in the maine pointes wherein we differâ— as I haue showne Therefore it is euidently vnpossible for you or any man breathing to make it euident by the Scripture that the Apostles and primitiue Church were of your religion not of â—urs or that yours is true ours false 56. Now since your doctrine is thus contrary to Gods word and consequentlie your spirit being rubde vppoÌ„ this tuchstone being found to be counterfait it were not amisse to looke about from whence you had your doctrine and whence your Spirit came Which thing I could finde out without much adoe and would set downe here but that I haue allreadie bene to longe I will therefore onely \ shewe you the way to finde it and so conclude Looke out the place where Gods commandements are neuer kept but esteemed vnpossible where all actions are sinnes and sinnes neuer remitted or wiped cleane away where there is no Indulgence or remissioÌ„ of any paine due to sinne no works of supererogatioÌ„ acknowledged no state of perfectioÌ„ no Merit of works no Libertie to doe well no prayer for the deade no Communion with saincts in heauen nor prayers made vnto them where Priestlie function is abhorred holy Sacrifice blasphemed and the very Images of Christ and his Saincts loathed and detested Where there is no Iustice inherent no constant rectitude or infallibility of iudgment no coÌ„tinual Visibilitie of sacred Profession no Vnitie in Religion but a confused admittance of all that are against the Catholique of Wicklefists and Hussites Luther doth confesse it in his Booke de missa pri tom 7. fol. 228. VVittemb a. 1558. See Luthers life by Mr Brereley câ— 1. â— 2. and Arians and Athiests aÌ„d all people that will obstinatly refuse confession of their Sinnes works of pietie and the common Creede and make theÌ„selues their owne wittes the Iudge of all looke out this place aÌ„d the rest you will finde there I haue heard and reade and doe beleeue that the spirit which instructed Luther your Master came from thence The Conclusion THe protestants are not able to giue satisfactioÌ„ in the Question of the Church whereby as allso by their Opposition to the Scripture and Antiquitie it is manifest that theirs is not the true Religion which or where else soeuer the true Religion be THE SECOND BOOKE WHEREIN IS DECLARED which is the true Church THE FIRST CHAPTER Shewing by authoritie of holy scripture that the true Christian Church is Catholike for tyme and place 1. SINCE your Church cannot be prooued to be Catholicke or vniuersall in regard of a generall communion which the world and perpetuall visibilitie you pretend there is no necessitie of any such latitude of place or tyme and would perswade vs that it is Catholique for doctrine because it holds the three Creeds with Baptisme aÌ„d the Supper and is not tied to one tyme or Nation but such as may be in any which you call negatiue vniuersalitie for tyme and place and for doctrine positiue Thou seemest to speake acutelie said S. Augustine to Vincentius a man of the Rogation Heresie and your Master in the way of defending your Religion as it seemes when thou doest interprete the name Catholique S. Aug. ep 48 by the obseruation of all diuine Precepts and all Sacraments and not of the communion of the whole world c. but indeed the thing which thou doest indeuour to persuade vs is that onelie Rogatians haue remained who are rightlie to be called Catholiques by the obseruation of all the diuine lawes and all Sacraments and that you onelie are the men in whom the sonne of man may finde faith when he comes Pardon vs wee beleeue it not And afterwards in the same Epistle you are with vs in baptisme in the Creede in the rest of our lords Sacraments In the spirit of Vnitie and in the band of peace and finallie in the Catholique church you are not with vs. As that Rogatian so you in your interpretation would seeme acute but vnto such onelie as neither knowe Scripture nor the state of the Question It is true that the doctrine of the true Church is perfect and the Obiect of her faith entire in it selfe but in your books and beleefe it is mangled and diuided so that part onelie is there allowed as hereafter shall appeare The Question is not here about that but about the Church that is about a certaine congregation of men and about the Vniuersalitie of such a Congregation not negatiue as you would haue it but positiue of tyme and place And because you admit not a positiue vniuersalitie that is a being of the Church in all Nations and in all tymes I will demonstrate vnto you by Scripture the Vniuersalitie of the true Church which soeuer it be whether the Roman or any other of which further point I will not dispute in this Chapter And allthough the scripture be full of testimonies for this vniuersalitie I will alleadge a fewe onelie aÌ„d those in order out of Moyses the Psalmes Prophets and Gospell which being well looked into will suffice 2. But first lest you rhinke you are to open your eies to looke on a Church and it inuisible by reason that in the Creede wee beleeue the Church
hunted after in the former booke but could not get tidings of in all the world before Luther I in the meane tyme will on further to looke out this Church of God But first I would haue you to note that as in the naturall bodie there are many superfluous materiall parts of flesh fatte and some other eauen in the hands eares and eies as you see in men that are grosse which parts though they be coherent now are not resumed all in the resurrection because they would extēd and increase the bodie vnto more then the iust bignes of the man and beyond the originall proportion of the soule So in this mysticall bodie of Iesus Christ are many parts which will not rise with it vnto glorie and therfore are multiplied aboue the number which is written in the booke of life yet being called as many are called fewe chosen for a tyme they doe beleeue but they fall againe before they die Another thing you may note if you please that as the naturall bodie receauing the sowle when the principall parts are prepared doth growe and flourish and afterwards looseth againe the exteriour beautie in ould age So the Church receaued the Spirit when by the instruction of the sonne of God the chiefe parts the Apostles were prepared and then did extend it selfe in bignes and flourished but in her ould age in the daies of Antichrist she will loose her exteriour beautie and maiestie and be greeuouslie afflicted and persecuted for a * The Church in the tyme of her extreame persecution will be visible for persecution it selfe is an euident argument of visibility as in England you see At the same tyme she will be allso Catholique and spred ouer the earth as S. Iohn telleth in the twentith Chapter of his reuelation where of the persecutors he saith they ascended vpon the breadth of the earth and compassed the campe of the saincts and the beloued cittie Vpon which words cleere enough in themselues S. Augustine in his bookes De cluitate Dei writeth thus They are not said to come into one place as though the campe of the Saincts or the beloued Cittie should be in some one place since this indeed is nothing but the Church of Christ spred ouer the whole world And therefore wheresoeuer this Church shall be then which shall be in all Nations for so much is insinuated by the latitude of the earth there shall be Gods beloued Cittie there shall she be beseiged by all her enimies for they allso shall be in all Nations with her So he li. 20. c. 11. Moreouer that extreme persecution of Antichrist shall be very short as enduring some three yeeres and a halfe which the Scripture allso hath declared He Antichrist shall thinke that he can change tymes and lawes and they shall be deliuered into his hāds euē to a tyme tymes ād halfe a tyme. Dan 7.25 Power was giuen to it the Beast to worke two ād fortie monethes Ap. 13.5 They shall tread vnder foote the holy Cittie two and fortie monthes Ap. 11.2 From the tyme when the Continuall Sacrifice shall be taken away and the abomination shall be set vp 1290. Dayes Dan. 12.11 See allso Ap. 12. v. 6. 14. tyme as S. Iohn doth foretell But now to finde this Church THE SECOND CHAPTER The Catholique Church assigned 11. HAuing seene the picture of the Catholique Church as in Scripture it hath beene drawne by God himselfe it is not hard for him that will cast an eie vpon the world and compare this picture with the communities he finds there to discouer among all Churches and congregations which is the Catholique or to learne it if he will but aske the question of any man For all S. Aug. de vera relig c 7. and euen Heretiques ād Schismatiques as S. Augustine longe agoe did obserue when they talke not with those of their owne sect but with others do whether they will or no call no other Catholique but the Catholicke because they cannot otherwise be vnderstood vnles they designe her by that name which the whole world calles her by Men generally being demaunded which are Catholiques point at vs and being asked which Church is the Catholique do direct vnto that which is in cōmunion with the Roman See This was knowne to be the Catholique Church in the tyme of S. Paul this was acknowledged to be the Catholique Church in the tyme of S. Augugustine and S. Gregory and euer since and is now Aske all Christians such only excepted as your selues condemne for heretiques and they will tell you so Aske Iewes and Pagans and they will tell you this is the Church of Iesus Christ aske your fellowes White Cowell and such others and they will send you to this 12. If a man should haue come to Luther when he did looke round about for companie and found none of his opinion and should haue said vnto him Sir Luther in the Bible there is an ample description of a perperuall Catholique Church I pray you which is it that I may be Christian in communion of that Church Your Doctor for his hart could haue directed to no other then to that Congregation which then was in communion with the Bysshop of Rome For to you he could not haue directed him because poore men you were not in the world as yet with your Religion nor euer deserued the name of Catholique as in the former booke to your confusion hath beene seene To haue said that he a sole man was the Catholique Church which the Scripture speakes of had bene to multiplie himselfe ouer the world into many Nations and into millions of men at once To the Iewes or Pagans he could with no face haue sent him and had he done so they would haue giuen him the lie It rests therefore that Luther and so Caluin so Iewell must haue directed him to vs and haue tould him the Catholique Church is that which hath and still had communion with the Roman See 13. I knowe some of your fellowes would send a man to the Grecians and some further to the Aethiopians but these are not Protestants as the Grecians declare them selues and by the Aethiopians doctrine he may see that is not blind Neither hath the Grecian beleefe in those things wherein they differ from the Church of Rome euer bene in the generall communion of the Christian world and therefore Grecisme is not nor euer was Catholique and the same it is of Aethiopians and all others Another shift you haue and this is to say the Catholique Church is inuisible among the Romans the Grecians Aethiopians Germans and others but lies hid This would trouble the man surely for how should he be instructed by her and imbrace her communion vnles he could find her and how should he finde her if she did not appeare but were inuisible moreouer he would say that the Church which the Scripture hath described is there also declared to be perpetually visible with gates euer open the
19.21 Matth. 10.100.12 and certainely foretould things to come to himself to his aduersaries to his disciples to Ierusalem to the Gentiles to the Church 42. His miracles were many donne in the sight of his enemies donne oft with a word He cured the sicke gaue sight vnto the blind and life to those were deade Matt. 9. Luk 7. And was so powerfull heerein that he gaue his disciples power to doe the same and so farre that their tutch their word their clothes yea ād shadow there followed miraculous effects Act. 5. Neither was his life onely but this death likewise full of miracle in so much that nature her self was troubled with the horrour of that daie where in he on whō she depended died The earth trembled the rocks burst in sunder the vaile of the Tēple splitte graues did surrēder their deade Matt. 27. Luk. 23. the Sunne was ecclipsed strangely ād a generall darknes ouerspred the whole earth Being put to death in the sight of a world of people and his bodie buried he riseth such was his diuine power from death hauing thereby paid the ransome for mankind Mat. 27. Luk. 24. 1. Cor. 15. and is the third daie againe aliue and appeares and conuerses and giues instruction power and commission to his disciples and lastlie in their sight doth ascend Being ascended he sends the holy Ghost in visible manner vnto them all assembled whereby they receaue an inward testimony of the truth he had taught Act. 1. 2. and are so confirmed and encouraged by the power of this Spirit that they begin confidently notwithstanding the Iewes threates and opposition to diuulge his doctrine 43. And behold Peeter Supremū antiquissimū Theologorum stigium S. Dionys diu nom c 3. of an ignorāt fisherman is now become the Prince and Heade of deuines and maintaineth with the victorie by the knowne successe of many ages vniuersally now manifest the cause of Iesus Christ against all the world He is also so good an Oratour and on the suddaine that with his first speach and this made without studie Act. 2. the winnes in the sight of his Aduersaries three thousand to the faith For the better diuulging of the Gospell in all Nations these Fishermen haue also bestowed on them by their Master the guifte of tongues and instantlie the doctrine of Iesus Christ is vttered in all languages the Parthians and Medians and Elamites and those which inhabite Mesopotomia Iudea and Capadocia Pontus and Asia Act. 2. Phrygia and Pamphilia Aegypt and the parts of Lybia that is about Cyrene and strangers of Rome Iewes allso and Proselytes and Cretensians and Arabians all with admiratiō and amazement heare their owne languages from the mouthes of vnlettered Galileans O heauenly Master o powerfull and diuine spirit o wondrous Schoole o happie Scholers The holy Ghost saith a greate Sainct fills a boy giuen to the harpe and makes him a Psalmist ◠Gregor sup Ezech. he filles an abstinent childe and makes him the Iudge of Elders he filles a neatheard and makes him a Prophet he filles a fisherman and makes him Prince of Apostles he filles a persecutor and makes him Doctor of the Gentiles he filles a publican and makes him an Euangelist Adde heere that he filles a companie of vnlearned men and makes them linguists Deuines Preachers and Apostles 44. The Disciples thus miraculously furnished with knowledge and tongues to the amazement and confusion of all opponents did according to their Masters cōmission resolutely set on their greate taske which was to carrie the good tydings of the Worlds Redemption by Iesus the Sonne of God to all Natiōs and dispersing themselues into diuers partes did preach euery where Mar. 19. our Lord cooperating and confirming their doctrine with signes and woonders And now the World began to turne from Vice to Vertue from Superstition to Religion from Idolatrie to God againe 45. The Enemie of vertue ād of all good proceeding who affecting diuine honour fell frō heauen and cōtinuing his desire thought to compasse it heere on earth perceauing of the motion nowe begunne and seeing his ministers contemned his Idols ouerthrowne vncleane Spirits commaunded out of men and a generall reformatiō in the way began to storme and raised a most bitter persecution against the Church wherein by his instigation Iewes Gentiles and Heretickes with witte power and malice were to oppose her and the world made a Theater of the combat 46. The particulars are to long for this place and therefore I remit you to Baronius to reade there what the Christians did suffer in the tymes of Nero Domitiā Traian Marcus Aurelius and Sueuerus commanders of the Roman World when confessing the faith of Iesus Christ in all places on all occasions before all kind of people their number did increase daily in the face of torment and the sword of Persecution preuailed nothing but to lay open their constancie to the world Prouinces Ilands Castles Fortresses Tents Campes Tertull. Apol. ad Gent. c. 37 Courtes Pallaces Senates Market places all were full and the Kingdome of Christ discouering it self further thē the Roman Empire was outstreched into all corners beleeued in all places reuerenced of all Nations euery where raigning adored euery where After the forenamed followed other most bitter persecutiōs by Decius Dioclesian Maximinian Wherein the Priests were tormented the Churches pulled downe the Bookes burnt ād the furie was such being with extreame violence borne into all prouinces Citties Townes in the Roman world that it threatned an vniuersall extirpation yeauen to the last Christian man and yet could not the nūber of beleeuers be diminished Wee reade of seuēteene thousād martyred in one month and that in Aegypt a part of Africke there were 144000. put to death ād 700000. banished from the same place in Diocletiās tyme. Reade Euseb Baron Spondan by which if wee guesse at the multitude which did suffer in all the tyme of the ten persecutions in all the world the number will appeare infinite and our faith be confirmed with a world of blood So earnestly did the Deuil by these tyrannicall cruel meanes oppose the Church which notwithstanding when all was donne was greater then before Constant in so much that Christianity got the Empire and then securely spred it self ād Rome as Leo the greate truly said S. Leo serm 1. de Nat. Apost being made the See of Peeter came to rule more vniuersallie by diuine Religion then by tēporall Soueraignetie for though enlarged by many victories she had extended the right of her Empire by sea and land yet that which the toyle of Warre subdued was lesse thē that which Christian peace did bring vnder 46. Out of this admirable plantation of Christianitie and so powerfull a proposition and persuasion of the truth vnto the World that it was esteemed aboue all things els deerest otherwise to men the Fathers make excellent discourses to shew the diuine power of our Sauiour
them This is a succession because they were not all at one tyme and a Catholique succession because the communion of Nations was with them and with their faith and their Decrees 61. Other obiections you haue against the truth of the doctrine which this Church doth maintaine But the chiefest of them are allready answeared in another place And hereafter I will proue at large that the Catholique Church onelie hath the assistance of the all teaching Spiritte and therfore cannot be condemned of errour by any meanes extant in the world whatsoeuer noe iudgment being of greater or of equall authoritie with hers by reason of the Spiritte which doth teach her all truth The second Conclusion The Christians in Communion with Vrbanus VIII are the Church of God THE THIRD BOOKE OF DIVINE ASSISTANCE THE FIRST CHAPTER Proouing diuine Assistance in the Catholike Church 1. HAVING declared sufficientlie which is the Church it followes next that wee speake of the diuine assistance in beleeuing and teaching which assistance the sonne of God hath promised vnto it Catholiques as I haue said before doe resolue their iudgment into the iudgment of the Church and the iudgment of the Church doth relie vppon the assistance of the holie Ghost by whose prouidence it is preserued from erring in the pâ—oposition of diuine faith This assistance in Church-proposition wee beleeue and that you must also grant and beleeue it I am now to prooue You will not denie that men are to be instructed trulie in faith an diuine matters for how shall they liue as Christians ought vnles they beleeue rightlie and how shall they beleeue rightlie if they be not well taught and instructed how shall they inuocate saith the Apostle in whome they haue not beleeued Rom. 10.14 and how shall they beleeue in whoÌ„ they haue not heard or how shall they heare without a preacher it cannot be For no man of himselfe is able to finde out or to discouer the mysteries of our faith the Trinitie the Incarnation of the Sonne of God the Scriptures and their meaning It is therefore necessarie that men be instructed in matters of faith 2. And since instruction is necessarie as wee also by experience know this instruction must be looked for in some Schoole and from some masters or instructors The question therefore comes presentlie about this teaching Schoole which and where it is that a man there may be instructed To this question the answeare is easie first it is not the companie of Athiests or Pagans for their doctrine and instruction is not holie and diuine Secondlie it is not the companie of Iewes for their doctrine is not Christian Thirdlie it is not the companie of confessed Heretiques therefore it is the Church for the Church is the Schoole of Iesus Christ and which this is I haue declared in the former booke This supposed I reason thus for diuine assistance 3. It belongs to the prouidence of allmightie God to assist that Schoole in which by his will and ordinance the whole world is to be instructed in diuine matters and Religion Therefore it belongs to Gods prouidence to Arg. 1 assist the Church for the Church is the said Schoole as I declared before The argument is cleere and needs no further confirmation but least you seeke to escape it if it be vrged by one that is no Scholler with some fonde distinction I note here that the Spirit doth assist to beleeue and to teach The first of these acts is in the vnderstanding and interior the second is publique or exterior and in the mouth The Spirit doth assist the Church both wayes that is to beleeue and to teach but the argument doth proceede here of assistance to the later to teach because faith according to S. Paul doth suppose instruction or teaching aÌ„d euery one should haue faith for without faith it is impossible to please God and he that beleeueth not shall be condemned Hebr. 11. Mar. 16. Moreouer you knowe that for resolution in diuine matters it is necessarie that a man knowe where to seeke instruction whom he may securelie followe in whose iudgment he may rest in whome and where the Spirit of God doth speake This is the thinge wee looke for and this thing is in noe other companie but the Schoole of Iesus Christe the Church 4. It may be you will say that a man desirous of instruction should come to you But this will not satisfie for what should a man haue done before Luther when Protestants were not nor your Religion thought vppon as I haue seene allreadie in the first booke He might haue gone ouer all the world to looke for your Church and lost his labour But deale plainlie with vs and declare your minde is there any congregation in the world whose instruction one may securelie fellowe or no if there be not what course should vnlearned men take to learne the truth shall they beleeue without preachers If there be which is it and whence hath it that it may be followed of it selfe or from the Spirit you can answeare nothinge but the Spirit and this Spirit not in Athiests nor in Iewes nor in confessed Heretiques but in the Church And thus much for those who seeke instruction 5. I prooue secondlie this assistance by the necessitie of a Iudge to determine controuersies Arg. 2 in matter of Religion Since the Scripture is obscure in many places and since Heresies do and must arise in the world it is necessarie that there be some Visible meanes able and sufficient to determine controuersies which meanes can be no other but the proposition and iudgmeÌ„t of the Church For being visible and intelligent able to heare examine and define the controuersies it must needs consist of men not of meere Spirits or of insensible creatures and if it consist of men these men must not be Athiests or enemies to the Christian doctrine such as are Pagans Iewes and confessed Heretiques and therefore they must be the Church or that part of it which is to teach The iudge of controuersies therefore is the Church Whence it followes that the holie Spirit doth assist her in this act of determining controuersies in matter of faith directing her vnderstaÌ„ding to coÌ„ceaue the meaning of Gods word and preseruing her from errour in the proposition of it This discourse you cannot denie with any shewe of probabilitie for there is no meanes to make an end of controuersies among men if the iudgment of the Church be neglected or be not certaine aÌ„d infallible if the Spirit of truth be not in the Church it is in none at all if it doth not teach the Church it doth teach none if it doth not direct the Church to vnderstand Gods word it directeth none if it doth not assist the Church when she for the generall good of the Christian world doth determine a controuersie of faith it doth assist none at all for all the promise made by our Sauiour Iesus Christ of assistaÌ„ce is made vnto
the Church in later tymes did conforme her iudgment to the iudgment of the church in former tymes and esteeme it infalliblie This is true at all tymes from the Apostles to this daie therfore all the Church of all this tyme is against your affirmation and your affirmation against the Spirit of all this Church pastors and people 〈◊〉 and learned auncient and moderne 53. Fourthlie 4. Confir If all Christians be warranted by Iesus Christ the Sonne of God and true God to heaâ—e the Church and to 〈…〉 iudgment then is it vnpossible that the generall resolution of the Church in matter of faith though not fundamentall in your sense be false and coÌ„tradict the eternall truth because God being truth and goodnes obligeth not men to erre and to contradiction But all Christians are so warranted Luk. 10. v. 16. He which heareth you heareth me he which contemneth you contemneth me It is therfore vnpossible that the generall resolution of the Church in matter of faith though such as you call not fundamentall be false therfore it hath by Gods prouidence the assistance of the Spiritt of truth in euerie such generall resolution 54. Fiftlie If the whole Church theÌ„ all Bisshopes all Fathers though consenting all together aÌ„d teaching vniformely may haue erred in matters of faith which are not of your fundamentalles 5. Confir Whence it followes that whatsoeuer they haue said or beleeued or receaued aboue those fewe fundameÌ„talles may be false aÌ„d consequentlie nothing nothing at all in matter of faith is certaine but onelie those fewe fundamentalles Why then may not the rest of deuinitie yea all the rest of the scripture be false and why may not old damned heresies howsoeuer in the primitiue tyme abhorred be true If you offer to answere that you â—â—owe certainlie those things to be false and the rest of the scripture to be true I replie that you doe either pretend to know this by the spiritte and therby you admitte what before in your distinctioÌ„ you denied or you pretend to know it by your witte and then you entangle your selfe more in in the bryers for how will you make it euident that your witte cannot erre in these matters if all other wittes might haue erred 55. Hauing lighted here on the consideration of the fonde esteeme you haue of your owne witte aboue the world I begin to see that you affect a place farre aboue the qualitie of your person though this disorder in affection be in a manner secrette from your selfe You iudge and determine controuersies in matters not fundamentall as you speake and this men see aÌ„d your forwardnes herein hath enforced me to this answeare Now you take this office of determining these controuersies froÌ„ the Church as wee haue seene oft before aÌ„d if you would acknowledge it to be there I neede write no more of this matter This throne was high but you affect a higher yet which I shew for either in this matter of determining these controuersies you giue place to the Spiritt as to the iudge or you doe not if you doe the Spirittes holie assistance is exteÌ„ded further then to your fundamentalles if you doe not you sitte in the throne aÌ„d iudge for you determine them against vs. Let Christians tell me now whether you vsurpe the place or not 57. Sixtlie your errour is fuÌ„dameÌ„tall 6. Confirmâ— therfore the opposite which the Churche beleeue this a fundamentall truth And consequentlie in your prâ—ciples you must coÌ„fesse that she doth not erre in it for you say she erreth not in fuÌ„dameÌ„talls That your errour is fundameÌ„tall I prooue because that errour is fundamentall which is the ground of infinite errours but yours is the grouÌ„d of infinite errours because it takes away the certaiÌ„tie froÌ„ all Gods word and all deuinitie those fewe pointes onelie excepted which you call fundamentall 58. Moreouer to touch your fundamentalles also 7. Confirm It takes away all certaintie in them first because you leaue noe meanes to knowe which they be and secondlie because you leaue noe meanes to know they be diuinelie reuealed if it were knowne which in particular they al were for the authoritie of the Church proposeth equallie the whole Scripture and therfore if it sufficeth for any chapter or point it sufficeth for euery chapter and euerie point And the Spiritte of God did equallie direct the writer in all and it is Gods word all and therfore if the Spiritts direction or Gods authoritie serue to warrant some it serues to warrant all and if it be not able to warrant all it is vnable to warrant any at all 59. You thinke I haue done now but harke further Your assertion doth scandalize the Christian world if it may be scandalized for you take away all certaintie from the word of God in all pointes and partes but some twelue propositions which you call fundamentall 8. Confirm denying that there is at all any meanes to know certainlie that the rest is Gods word This I proue and I take the Gospell of S. Iohn or to declare it more fullie I take all the Bible and argue thus Either the Spiritte of God doth assist his Church to know certainlie that all in the Bible ouer and aboue your fuÌ„dameÌ„tall pointes is the word of God or it doth not Make your choise If it doth not there is no way to know certainely that it is the word of God for men of themselues and without Gods assistance all might erre especiallie in obscure matters as those are and in this especiallie which is to know whether God spake those wordes or noe If it doth the field is ours for euerie thing there is not one of the fundamentalles 60. The same argumente may be made of the sense of any place for either the place is fundamentall and such are fewe by your accompt or the place is not fundamentall and then excluding the assistance of the Spiritte you haue noe waie to be assured of the sense 61. Let vs oÌ„ to the triall of this argumeÌ„t OpeÌ„ your Bible turne to the first Chapter of Genesis and reade the first verse In the begining God created heaueÌ„ and earth Of this verse I demauÌ„d eight things First whether you be certaine that it is the word of God and how SecoÌ„dlie whether it be a fundamentall place or be not Thirdlie how you doe know certainlie that it is or that it is not fundamentall Fourthlie whether there be meanes to knowe certainlie the sense if neede require Fiftlie what are the meanes which may assure men of the sense Sixtlie whether there be any meanes to knowe certainlie whether in these words be more literall seÌ„ses theÌ„ one Seuenthlie whether the assistance of the Spiritte be or be not necessarie to the certaine knowledge or assurance of these things Eightlie whether this assistance be promised to the Church or to others out of it as to Heretiques and pagans These eight things I demaund about that verse and when you
haue answeared them I goe to the second verse and demaund all the same And theÌ„ I goe to the third aÌ„d demauÌ„d all the same And when this Chapter is done I goe to the next and so on forwards thorough the Bible verse after verse till I come to the last verse in the Apocalyps or Reuelation 62. You will peraduenture meruaile that I doe include that booke too because it is full of obscure mysteries notwithstanding I will alonge thorough that allso with all these demaunds for there are meanes to knowe that it is the word of God and the Assistance of the spirit is sufficient to open the sense of each verse when the circumstances doe require it and you dispute against vs out of it and alleage vnder the title of manifest Scripture free from all ambiguitie the deepest mysteries that are there Moreouer the Prophecies there contained will be manifest in the end as the prophecies in the ould Testament of the Messias aÌ„d his Church are now opeÌ„ to the world The spiritte allso doth open to learned men many thiÌ„gs in the scripture which are hiddeÌ„ froÌ„ the vulgar aÌ„d are not yet by generall decree defined because the coÌ„moÌ„ exigeÌ„ce of the Church requires not the open and publique notice of theÌ„ yet these might be defined if need were as many things by occasioÌ„ of your heresies infesting and endangering Gods people haue bene of late 63. You will allso woÌ„der that I speake of many senses but I haue reasoÌ„ to saie as I doe because Gods word is full of sense as before I said and some tyme so many seÌ„ses doe occurre in the same speach that it is not easie to determine which God intendeth or whether he doth inteÌ„d more theÌ„ one And that I goe not further to fetch examples the words now cited are very hard In the begining God created heauen and earth what is this begining what kind of making doth he speake of what doth he meane by heauen and earth * In the begining God created heauen and earth It is not easie to finde the sense of these words as you will conceaue if you attend and ponder each the begining What is it is it the begining of time which he meanes or the begining of the works of God before he made time or is this begining Gods eternall word or what other thing is signified by these 64. Sainct Augustine a greate Scholler and a man of the Church primitiue and one of Gods elect did search with great diligence and earnest prayer in his ould age for the sense of this place as you may reade in the twelfth booke of his Confessions where hauing acknowledged the scriptureâ—â—o be so profound that it is horrour to looke into theÌ„ he brings many senses of these words and after a longe discussion Aug. l. 12. Confess c. 31. and serious Weighing of the difficultie concludes thus when one saith the prophet vnderstood that which I doe and another that which I. I thiÌ„ke I speake more religiouslie why not both if both be true and if any bodie seeth in these words some third thing or fourth or some other at all whatsoeuer why may not he be beleeued to haue seene all those things by whom one God hath tempered holie writ to many mens iudgments which were to see diuers things then he adds something in commendation of that full kinde of stile and in fine resolues In any wise when he wrote these words he vnderstood and thought whatsoeuer truth wee could find and whatsoeuer wee could not or cannot yet but may be fouÌ„d in them Marke this deuinitie well and remember whose it is 65. I forbeare to speake of the Assistance giuen to the prophets and Euangelists aÌ„d Apostles in all they did write and publish as Gods word which doth affoord me an other argumeÌ„t as hard for you to answere as the former I will not here discouer the gap you laie open to infinite Heresies about admitting about vnderstanding the word of God I loathe to let the world see how scandalous your doctrine iâ—â—â—w you oppose Christianitie vnder the colour of reformatioÌ„ aÌ„d doe what you can to shake the fouÌ„datioÌ„ of the faith that others may stagger in all as you peraduenture doe aÌ„d so the deuill get the day But all your endeuours poore men come to short you shoot your arrowes against heaueÌ„ which they hurt not but wouÌ„d your selues in the returne The Church of God is built on a rocke and a fewe words defend it such is the power of the words of Iesus Christ against all that Heretiques and Pagans and Persecutors and impostors and deuills Matt. 16.18 can attempt Thou art Peeter and vppon this rocke will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not preuaile against it These words haue defended it these sixteene hundred years against all aduersaries whatsoeuer and wee were fooles if now wee should be afraid Wee are safe wee are secure The sonne of God is our foundation the holie Ghost is our direction and our Lord round about vs for euer I conclude and because you seeme to take the SCRIPTVRE the SPIRIT IESVS CHRIST for iudges of controuersies when you talke at home before your parish to stop this bragge of yours I heere present this controuersie of ours about the assistance to the SCRIPTVRE to the diuine SPIRIT to IESVS CHRIST in these termes whether the Spirit be to teach some truthes onelie which you call fundamentall or others allso which you call not fundamentall The answeare is ALL. Io. 16.13 The Spirit of truth shall teach you all truth These be Gods words I beleeue them and here I rest THE FOVRTH CHAPTER Shewing how Catholikes all beleue the same though some more distinctly then others and the reason why Heretickes agree not 66. THat I may impart vnto you now the manner of discourse which I forme vnto my selfe sometymes in this businesse you must vnderstaÌ„d that the all-teaching Spirit or Holie Ghost is the Spirit of Vnitie aÌ„d that his Organ is the Church wherin he remaines aÌ„d teaches as I haue declared This Spiritte by the foresaid organ or mouth of the Church deliuers the true sense of the Scripture and those which beleeue and submitte their vnderstaÌ„dïg to this iudgmeÌ„t aÌ„d visible tribunall are all one in faith euerie one beleeuing ALL which the Church thus assisted doth hold aÌ„d beleeue and therfore all the same If I thought you coÌ„ceaued not my meaniÌ„g I would deliuer my selfe plainer thus The doctrine of the Catholique Church all together or the collection of points which it holds is but one summe of doctrine or collection of points And not onelie the bodie of the Church takeÌ„ in grosse but euerie Catholique doth beleeue it all And therfore take any two Catholiques whom soeuer where and whensoeuer they liued and their beleefe is the same to the last point or title because each beleeues all that the other beleeues as I haue said But the thing which troubles you
difference is not by meanes of the letter Reflect well on all this when you answeare the first booke nor of any common good Spiritt for that would not contradict it selfe as they do each other this difference cannot be taken but from the sense imaginatioÌ„ aÌ„d will of each partie and therefore each partie must be defined by his owne wit or by all his opinions in matter of faith 75. And here I answeare to your common replie of the Schoolemens disagreement in Schoole-questioÌ„s for notwithstaÌ„ding the varietie of opinioÌ„s in matters not defined by the Church before or in their tyme all Schoolemen that were Catholiques did agree in faith and all did beleeue the same according as I haue said before of other men Each of them tooke the iudgment of the Church for infallible therein beleeuing all whatsoeuer she either had or hereafter would determine This did euerie Schoole man euerie Catholique Deuine euerie Father 76. This way S. Augustine doth excuse S. Cyprian in the matter of rebaptization Before the consent of the whole Church by the decree of a plenarie or generall Councell S. Aug li. 1. de Bapt cont Don. c. 18. had determined what was to be embraced of all in that controuersie of rebaptizing the recoÌ„ciled S. CypriaÌ„ with allmost fowerscore of his fellow African Bysshops did thinke that euerie one who was baptized out of the Catholique coÌ„munion ought to be baptized againe when he had reconciled himselfe to the Church As yet there had bene no generall CouÌ„cell assembled in that behalfe but the world was held in by the strength of custome l. 2 c. 9. and this custome onelie was opposed to those which endeuoured to bringe in that noueltie of rebaptization because they could not apprehend the truth yet afterwards whilst among many on both sides it is spoken of and sought it is not onelie found out but allso brought to the autoritie and strenght of a generall Councell after Cyprians passion indeede but yet before I was borne A precedeÌ„t plenarie may be ameÌ„ded by a subsequent plenarie in matters oâ— fact And in faith a generall not approued by a generall approued Councell In the same place by occasion of the Councells by S. Cyprian and his predecessors made in Africke he saith that particular Councells must yeld to generall and that the whole is deseruedlie preferd before the part or particulars More ouer in the same booke a little before he prooues out of S. Cyprians words that if S. Cyprian had knowne of such a definition he would haue corrected his opinion and then shewes how much he doth relie on it himselfe Neither durst wee affirme any such thinge if wee were not well grounded vppon the most vniforme authoritie of the vniuersall Church l. 2. c. 4. vnto which vndoubtedlie S. Cyprian allso would haue yeelded if in his tyme the truth of this question had bene cleered and declared S. Augustines Spâ—rit and by a generall CouÌ„cell establisshed And of the same againe he hath an excellent discourse in the fift booke where amonge other things he saith that he pleaseth not the Saint if he seeke to preferre his wit and eloquence and store of learning before the holie Councell of all Nations â— 5. e. 17. to which doubtles he was present by vnitie of Spirit and if I with the whole world do iudge more truelie â—bid I do not preferre my hart before him neither is he in that he iudged otherwise deuided from the whole world â—bid I preferre not my opinion before his but the iudgmeÌ„t of the holy Catholique Church â— Cuius vniâ—ersitas ipâ— non fuit â—d in eius â—niuersitaâ— permanâ—t all which he was not but remained in it This is inough for my purpose and in the same principles of S. Augustine you see now that I can answeare any obiection that you can bringe out of the dissention of ancient or moderne writers or rather if you reflect on it well you will be able to answeare it all your selfe 77. This passage hath made me call to minde other speaches of the Fathers not farre from this purpose whereof I thinke it not amisse to put some downe for your better meditation if you will be pleased peraduenture to thinke more seriouslie on their words then you haue done hetherto on mine The truth of the scripture is helde of vs in this matter when wee doe that which pleaseth the whole Church Aug. l. 1. â—nt Cres â—3 the which the authoritie of the scriptures doth commend that because the holy Scriptures cannot deceaue whosoeuer feareth to be deceaued with the obscuritie of this question let him require the iudgment of the Church which the holie scripture without any ambiguitie doth demonstrate Vincent lirin conâ— Haeres c. 2â— It is necessarie by reason of the windings of vnconstant errour that the line of propheticall aÌ„d Apostolicall interpretation be directed according to the rule of the Ecclesiastical and Catholique sense And in the Catholique Church likewise wee must haue a greate care that wee hold that which hath bene beleeued euery where euer and by all c. 3. for this is truelie aÌ„d properlie Catholique as the power and reason of the word or name doth import which truelie doth coÌ„prehend all vniuersallie And this is so done in fine if wee followe vniuersalitie antiquitie consent vniuersalitie wee followe if wee confesse that one faith to be true which the whole Church thorough the world doth acknowledge and Antiquitie if wee do not in any sort leaue those senses which it is manifest that our Fathers and holie elders haue celebrated and commended and consent allso if wee followe the definitions ad decrees of all or neere all the Priests and Masters in Antiquitie 78. A protestant would thinke me vnreasonable if I should demand and exact all these conditions in euery protestant proposition before I beleeue it yet I will beleeue none of their doctrine vnles it be thus prooued nor all their Religion vnles it be thus prooued all which is as much to say as that by Gods grace I will neuer beleeue it Wee haue possessioÌ„ the spirit is in our Church aÌ„d this father was of it aÌ„d doth acknowledge it of greater authoritie of more infallibilitie then himselfe aÌ„d his rules were ruled by it but I goe on In the Antiquitie of the Church two things are constantlie and with greate care to be obserued Idem c. 41 to both which all they that will not become Heretiques must steed fastlie adhere The first is whatsoeuer is auncientlie decreed by all the Priests of the Catholique Church in a generall Councell secondlie if any newe question doth arise concerning which there is no such decree to be founde then must recourse be made to the iudgment of the holie Fathers I say of those onelie who euery one in their owne tyme were found to be approued masters continuing still in the vnitie of communion and faith And whatsoeuer they are
to good which caÌ„ be from no bad cause the prophecies of the old and newe Testament and whatsoeuer els learned men vse to bringe to this purpose And taking in this collection all that which is distinct from the increated authoritie of allmightie God I call it the condition circumstance or application of the formall obiect which formall obiect is the diuine veritie reuealing Further I must not goe because the diuine veritie is infinite and therfore able to moue any vnderstanding and the circumstances are beyond all exceptioÌ„ to warrant the prudeÌ„ce of my choise I haue vsed some Schoole termes in this answeare but you must pardon me for it is a Schoole point as you knowe and fit for Schollers onelie 92. A fourth exception is that you seeke the will of God more sincerely and therefore enioy the assistance which wee doe not because wee relie onely on men This argument is allreadie answeared in effect wee depend on men proposing and as instrumentall or ministeriall causes vnder Iesus Christ the greate Pastor And sure the Apostles on whome the primitiue Church depended were men allso But principallie wee depend on Iesus Christ and the holie Ghost assisting in aÌ„d by the Church For your sincere seeking of the truth it is a friuolous pretense since you do not take the meanes by God ordained to finde it Iesus Christ hath left it in the Church and if you would finde it you should looke it there Your pretence of prayer and the guift of interpretation and conference of places are trickes onelie to delude fooles for all wise meÌ„ knowe that Christ hath bestowed all helpes necessary vppon the Church and that in the Church are the power of interpretation and sanctitie and generallie all the guifts of the holy Ghost Wherefore you are first to prooue that you are the Church before you challenge the Spirit and his guifts till then wee number you amoÌ„ge those who come in at the windowe to rob and steale the soules out of men and indeuour allso as much as lies in you to rob the Church of God of her endowments 93. For the sanctitie of our Church wherewith you would equall yours I remitte you to Baronius Martyrologe and desire to see the like catalogue from your holie number But who knowes not that it is proper to the Catholique Church to breede Saints and that thence are those which out of all Nations tribes and tongues are chosen to raigne with Iesê° Christ Yet are not all in this Church truelie Saincts there are degrees of incorpotion and vnion to the heade and members Some are vnited by faith and charitie some by faith and exterior communion but want Charitie and they haue some kinde of motioÌ„ and influence from Christ the heade for without him none can beleeue a right and they are part of the great mysticall body the Church Yet they want the principall vnion which vnion will be perfect and constant in heauen where the Church shall see the deitie of the sonne of God But here good and bad are mixt yet so that the Church militant shall neuer be without many good and holie men according to the Scripture This is the couenant which I will make with the house of Israel saith our Lord Ierem. 30. v. 33. speaking of the Christian Church I will giue my lawe in their bowells and in the hart of them will write it and will be to them a God and they shall be my people Ezech. 37. v 27. And in Ezechiel I will giue my sanctification in the middest of them for euer 94. If you aske me whether the Church may be said to sinne since there be sinners in the Church I answeare no. If any sinne it is not by meanes of the Church but contrarie to her direction and Spirit And if any erre it is not by her meanes but contrarie to her Spirit and proposition So that neither the sinne nor the errour of particular men can iustlie be attributed vnto the Church since they worke not in those cases by the common iudgment and direction of the Church but by their owne priuate apprehensions and affections contrary to the Churches will and rule As when one in a well-instituted common-wealth doth secretlie steale and murder it is his priuate action it is not the action of the common wealth but flatlie against the will and lawes of it This onely I will note in this matter that euery mortall sinne doth not destroy all incorporatioÌ„ and therefore a man may be in mortall sinne and yet in the Church for he which beleeueth doth participate some kinde of life though imperfect as I said before Neither is it necessarie that in each part all vitall powers be for a mans foote doth participate life but cannot see nor heare nor imagine as doth the heade 95. In the next place insteede of an argumeÌ„t I note your vanitie in heaping things together to winne the vulgar Your silken discourses vnles they be flowred with histories of Popes Friars and Monkes are not gaudie and therefore this embrodery must not be wanting I will not loose tyme to rehearse the particulars but in generall answeare thus First if amonge twelue Apostles pict out by our Sauiour Iesus Christ one was naught and proued an Apostata it can be no meruaile if amonge more then two hundred Popes elected by men some fewe did amisse Neither can their faults preiudice Papall authoritie aÌ„d the generall doctrine of the Church or redound vnto it more then did the Apostasie of Iudas preiudice Apostolicall power and christianitie or redound vnto the rest You should haue considered rather that many Bishops of the Roman See are knowne Saincts 96. I answeare secondlie for Friars that their rule is good holie and beyond all iust exception and therefore if any not conforming themselues to this rule by weaknes faile and liue amisse the profession is no more to be coÌ„demned for it then is Christianitie for the wicked conuersation of many that professe it And the stories of Friars which you haue are but fewe some dozen peraduenture were they a thousand the matter were not greate whereas in all the Catholique world are Friars And touching Monkes it is the same their Rule is holie and their conuersation such as crownes and scepters haue ben left for to learne it 33. milliaÌ„ AbbatiaruÌ„ 14. millia Prioratuum Genebr an 524. Ordinis Praedicatorum feruntur fuisse 4143. coenobia id an 1216. Franciscanorum suo tempore 90. millia fuisse scribit Sabellicus Ennead dec 9. l. 9. their institution hath bred many Saincts and their Order hath ben so genenerally spred that they haue had many thousand monasteries at a time Among so many to haue happened a few disorders is no wonder but to thinke that your stories put case they were in parte true which is not worth examination can preiudice the rule and institution is very childish 97. Of Catholiques in generall I haue spokeÌ„ all readie they were not all saincts
this bodie one whereof visible men are members and Predestinate allso members of the same then are there not two Churches of Christ one visible the other inuisible Now it is most certaine by the testimonie of holie Scripture that the Church is the mysticall bodie of Christ ād that this mysticall bodie is but one wherein are visible and predestinated persons therefore there are not two Churches of Christ one visible the other inuisible two bodies one visible the other inuisible but all appertaine to one bodie and one Church I confirme this out of S. Paul who in his Epistle the Ephesians saith that God the Father hath made Christ the heade ouer all the Church which is his bodie Ephes 1. v 22.23 Ch. 4. v. 13. In this Church the Apostle saith Christ put Apostles pastors c. till wee all meete into the vnitie of faith which is till the end of the world Chap. 2.19 Ch. 1. v. 13. and in the same Church are the citizens of the Saincts the domesticalls of God Those which are signed with the holie Ghost of promise which is the pledge of our inheritance in fine the predestinate and S. Paul himselfe was in this Church This one bodie therefore had these two attributs to wit it was visible for hauing in it intrinsecallie and for euer publike persons Pastors Doctors it might thereby be seene and heard and it had in it the predestinate which you call inuisible men whence it followes that visible and inuisible in that sense leaue it still as it was one bodie 105. Fiftlie our greate Pastors fould is one not two as your distinction makes it He hath one fould and that is visible For the Church of God is visible as I haue manifestlie declared before and to this fould his predestinate are all brought out of what Nation out of what part of the world soeuer Other sheepe I haue that are not of this fold a fould wherein the Apostles were Iohn 10.16 men visible to the whole world and wherein their successors are men allso visible thē allso I must bringe ād they shall heare my voice and there shall be made one fould and one Pastor Heere by the testimonie of Iesus Christ the fould the Church is one away then with your distinction beleeue one as wee doe which is visible in which the predestinate people are 106. And indeede where should one looke for our Sauiours Schollers but in his Schoole where should wee looke for Gods domesticalls but in his howse where should wee looke for his members but in his body where should wee looke for holie people for predestinate for Saincts but in the Church And therefore hauing demonstrated before which is the Church this labour might haue bene spared For as I answeared of the Spirit that you should not challenge him till you had prooued that yours was the Church a taske vnpossible so now I may answeare of holie people of predestinate of Saints that you do not callenge any till you haue prooued which you will not doe as longe as God is God that yours is the Church 107. It is verily a ridiculous thing to see what Churches you frame in your imagination One full of words euer preaching all mouth but without Spirit without hart without sowle The other full of the Protestant Spirit but silent and ashamed of her owne doctrine in so much that for a thousand yeeres together she was dombe a church without a mouth The mouth and hart you knowe are both parts of one man the hart is within and is not seene but by the mouth in the mouth it doth shewe it self in what forme it pleaseth to affect The Church too hath hart and mouth hart to beleeue to loue God and mouth to praise inuoake and professe him These make not two Churches they are two parts of one God hath promised these two to one and the same Church his spirit is allwayes in her hart and his words allwayes in her mouth I will aske my Father and he will giue you an other Paraclete Io 14 v. 15 16.17 that he may abide which you for euer the Spirit of Truth whom the world cannot receaue because it seeth him not nor knoweth him But you knowe him because he shall abide with you and shall be in you Thus our Sauiour to his Apostles publike ād visible persons and in them to the visible Church Isay 59.21 Rom. 10. v. 9.10 My spirit that is in thee and my words that I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth c for euer If thou confesse with thy mouth our Lord Iesus and in thy hart beleeue that God hath raised him vp from the deade thou shalt be saued for with the hart wee beleeue vnto iustice but with the mouth confession is made to Saluation Gods Church therefore hath both hart and mouth in her hart she hath Gods Spirit in her mouth his word and these are not two Churches but one Church 108. Neither doth predestination make it inuisible as childishly you imagine The predestinatiō it selfe indeede is inuisible vnto vs it is Gods purpose and decree and therefore is in God as mans purposes are in the mind of man and those purposes euen in men are secret and hidden till the men reueale them But the predestinated as I said before are as visible as other men So was S. Peeter S. Paul and the rest of the Apostles the Martyres of Iesus Christ were visible otherwise how could they haue bene tortured as they were The Doctors were visible S. Ierome and S. Augustine were knowne farre and neere ād to come neerer to our tyme S. Francis S. Thomas of Aquin S. Bonauenture S. Charles Boromeus were visible yet predestinate whereby it is most euident that predestination doth not make men inuisible they may be publike persons and knowne to all the world and predestinate allso And so may the Church be both predestinate and visible too And is so though euery man in the Church be not predestinate some are there more then number as in a mans body there are some parts superfluous which will not be resumed in the resurrection as I said in the former booke and these parts are like the rest they communicate with the rest they beleeue as the rest but they doe not perseuer as the rest Now which those are that will perseuere finallie which will not God hath reserued as a secret vnto himselfe He hath not as yet made any secretarie coppie out of the booke of life The sanctitie of some in all tymes he makes knowne for the example and encouragmēt and confirmation of others by such signes as he pleaseth such as you reade in the liues of Saincts penned by saincts allso by S. Athanasius S. Ierome S. Augustine S. Gregorie of Nice S. Gregorie the greate S. Bede S. Bernard S. Bonauenture and others who in their workes haue related diuers wōderfull things of holie men and this is a further argument
doctrine and her Spiritte 126. Awake man for shame awake and looke aboute consider what you doe here is a faire waie before you and you like a bedlome runne out of it ouer shoes ouer bootes ouer head and eares imagining notwithstanding that you walke aboue heauen and that euerie steppe is on a starre The Church the Councells the Fathers Apostles Euangelists all are in errour all vnder your feete whilst your chariot is rowld vniformelie aboue the Sunne and heauen takes newe lawes from your allmightie witte I will ascend into heauen Isay 14. v. 13.14 aboue the starres of God I will exalt my throne I will sit in the mount of the Testament in the sides of the North. I will ascend aboue the height of the clowdes I will be like the highest So he that wēt before you if you prick on apace you will ouertake him for he is yet at his Inne ād there to stay an eternall night That past you may iogge on together I loue your person I wish your saluatiō but hate your heresie and make no greate account of that which you most adore your learnīg In the Schoole of errour be manie good witts There the Manichees and Ariās ād Caluinists haue their order if there be any order where no man will be second Aristotles Logicke and Tullies Rhetoricke could not make of superstition true Religion I am not in loue with Hell though in it be greate Schollers the Foulest there was once the Fairest amōge creatures for endowments or nature and strength of vnderstanding I knowe that such as did applaud his cōceipt were partners in his fall I knowe too that all the knowledge of all Pagans of all Heretiques of all aduersaries put together doth not equall the knowledge of the Church It is the Schoole of Iesus Christ who taught a thing worthie of eternall admiration a poore fisherman and on the suddaine too to speake all tongues I speake it to the confusion of such aduersaries of our Sauiour as glory in their skill in others language and do repeate againe to the Rhetoricians he suddainlie made the same man so good an Oratour that he conuerted vnto his Masters doctrine in the face of his aduersaries Act. 2 three thousand with one Sermon he so instructed his disciples in deuinitie that they conuinced Greece the worlds Academie for wit and learning persuaded Rome in the flourishing tyme of her power though she imploied all her force to frustrate their proceeding and in fine to relate many wonders in a word conuerted all the world to beleeue a man God to beleeue a most obscure and witt-transcending Creede In this Schoole wee doe learne here wee are assured of the truth The manifestation of the Spirit is giuen here To one the word of wisdome 1. Cor. 12. v. 8.9.10 To another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit To another faith in the same Spirit To another the grace of doing cures in one Spirit To another the working of miracles To another prophecie To another discerning of Spiritts To another kinds of tongues To another interpretations of languages Can you giue these things can you teach this Schoole in this sort as the Spirit doth or if you cannot as without infinite blasphemie you may not presume you can why do you endeuour to thrust out the holie Ghost and intrude your selfe into the place whie do you thus oppose the diuine ordinance and openlie wronge the sonne of God Auant Heretiques Iude v. 2. clouds without water borne about with winde raging waues of the Sea foming out your owne confusions enemies to the Church to the Scripture and to God auant Wee need not your instruction wee haue better Masters Without you the Church was planted the world conuerted the truth maintained without you the Schooles are full of Schollers the world of Martyrs heauen of Saincts without you the Church hath stoode and doth stand and so will do still The third Conclusion All Controuersies in matters of Religion are to be decided by the Spirit in the Church THE FOVRTH BOOKE WHEREIN SOME PARTIticular Controuersies are briefly discussed THE FIRST CHAPTER Of the Primacie 1. YOVR generall arguments being dispatched in the former booke I shall finde little danger or difficultie in the encounter of the rest of the disordered route and may iustlie in your owne principles contemne them all as I said before in the like occasion and must repeate it oft For whence is their strength from witte or from authoritie If from witt you must not thinke amisse of me if I preferre the witt and iudgment of many worlds of learned mē before yours which hath declared it selfe vnreasonable hetherto especiallie since all men be lyars to turne the point of your owne weapon vppon your selfe and you no God nor Angell but a man If your argumēts haue their streingth from authoritie either this authoritie is of men and this you haue refused as vncertaine because all mē are lyars and you haue laboured not onelie to disgrace the Church of later tymes and the Fathers in their age but allso to take the Apostles triping and therefore their authoritie moues not you Or this authoritie is of God in holie Scripture where he deliuers according to your distinction two sorts of points the one is of fundamentall points and in these you confesse that the Church neither doth nor can erre and therfore the ensuing controuersie is not about them as for example the Incarnation the passion and the rest which you call fundamentall The other sort of points or textes in the Bible are as you call them not-fundamentall and these you do not hold for certaine which howsoeuer you dissemble the matter is cleere for in your principles there are no meanes from God or man to knowe certainlie that they are indeede parts of Gods word or to knowe which is their true meaning Not the witte of man alone for that may erre especiallie in such an obscure point as whether this text this verse be Gods word and not the word of a man Not the Spirit for that doth assist onelie to fundamentalls you saie and these you say are not of them you must answer this heere before you goe further and knowe that of the certainty of consequences it is the same Moreouer since diuine assistance to the vnderstanding of the Scripture depends vppon Gods promise and since this promise is made vnto the Church to the Apostles and their successors you are first to prooue that you are the Church before any man is to beleeue you haue the assistance ād interprete right for arguments out of Scripture prooue nothing if they misse the sense of God and be grounded in a wronge sense For these and the like reasons I might haue forborne to make further answeare to your exceptions Notwithstanding to giue you content I will descende vnto the particular consideration of the chiefest 2. First therefore to make your waie into the Church there to spoile and aulter
the stile and phrase of speach giues them no satisfaction at all For they so disesteeme it in this respect peculiarlie that in regard of the stile and matter they professe themselues moued to beleeue the contrarie and to put it out of the number of Canonicall bookes If you answere that by the helpe of the Spiritte you discerne it you moue them not for they claime as great an interest as full a participation of the Spirit as your selues aÌ„d therefore you moue not theÌ„ to beleeue as you do But suppose if you will that all Antiquitie stoode on your side what could this preuaile to moue a Lutheran to beleeue the matter or to coÌ„firme your disciples who stagger at your want of proofe what could this auaile I say seeing that it is agreed amoÌ„gst you that the Church that all the Fathers that all men since the Apostles might haue aggreed in an errour 27. According to the grounds of our Religion euerie Catholique can answere easilie that whatsoeuer by the Church of God is receaued for diuine Scripture is infalliblie such because the Church is directed by Gods All-seeing Spirit which can discerne it well And suppose the Catholique were vnlearned aÌ„d that all of you together both LutheraÌ„s and Caluinists should preteÌ„d that in the Bookes there wanted the Spirit of truth aÌ„d seeke to maintaine this with a shewe of oppositioÌ„ either within it selfe or to some other part of Scripture or to reason which thing you doe manie times pretend as Iulian and Porphyrie and others haue done before he would answere you all without difficultie by recourse to the diuine Assistance in the Church which he takes for a principle of Christian Religion beleeued heretofore by the whole Christian world and warranted by God himselfe in cleere termes and would say that the knowledge of the Church thus assisted is more certaine then the contrarie pretense of any aduerse part whatsoeuer and she more able to espie contradiction errour or opposition theÌ„ any other is in regard of the holie Spirit who directeth her and with an infinite vnderstanding lookes earnestlie vppon All. In vertue of which assistance she hath maintained scripture against Heathens and Apostataes and misbeleeuing Iewes aÌ„d Heretiques hetherto and still doth and will doe Further more a Catholike doth not thinke it necessarie that the booke which he beleeueth to be Scripture hath beene euer vniuersallie by the Church esteemed so He knowes it is sufficient if the Catholicke Church hath at any time beleeued it For one of the Principles of our ReligioÌ„ is that the Catholike Church cannot erre at all in matter of faith it cannot erre in any age in any tyme. And this principle hath euer bene beleeued by Catholiks Moreouer that which at any tyme she beleeueth hath beÌ„ infolded in her faith at other times and so virtuallie beleeued euer and by all 29. Now to your opposition Whereas you say that of late onelie some Books haue beene taken into the canon I answere first that such Bookes as your selues doe receaue for canonicall were not all at once vniuersallie receaued in the Church but were acknowledged by degrees S. Hieron de viris illustribus in Paulo Iacobo Petro IoaÌ„ne in Ep. ad Dardan itemque in Prolog So much you knowe by those I haue allreadie named and S. Hierom can tell you more Yet are these allso by your owne confession the word of God and were such in themselues before it was generallie knowne vnto the world As our Sauiour was the naturall Sonne of God and his increated Word before the world did knowe or beleeue him so to be The reason is because mans knowledge is later then the veritie and the more obscure the thing is the longer he is ordinarilie before he can find it out Secondlie it is not so late as you thinke since these Bookes were in the Church esteemed Cit. Bellarm de Verbo Dei l. 1. Vide Baron an 415 August Ep 235. de doct Chr. l. 2. c. 8. Innocent Ep. 3. ad Exuper c. 7. Can. SaÌ„cta Rom d. 15. Ierem. 36. canonicall and diuine though not so generallie as I noted before for you finde them cited for such in the Fathers writings verie oft and in the councell of carthage held in the tyme of Boniface twelue hundred yeares agoe you haue a Catalogue of them all the verie same which you finde now deliuered by the couÌ„cell of Trent sauing onlie that Baruch which the auncient Fathers did acknowledge allso for diuine is after the manner of those tymes comprized with Ieremie whose Secretarie you know he was I adde thirdlie that whereas S. Augustine who subscribed to the foresaid councell doth prescribe a rule for yonge Deuines to finde which Scripture is of greatest authoritie bidding them preferre that which all Churches doe receaue before that which is receaued onlie by some Churches or some part wee now seeing the foresaid canon receaued at length by the whole Church of God and this declared in a Generall Councell must and doe yeauen by S. Augustines rule receaue it all as the word of God and consequentlie of one and the same Authoritie all there being no surer ground of mans faith in such a case then is the Spirit of God in the Church The like I answere them allso who runne to the Iewes canon for the Spirit of the christian Church is no lesse able to discerne a veritie then they were and therefore if the christian Church at anie tyme declare a Booke to be diuine though the Iewes knewe it not wee beleeue it and must For the holie Ghost cannot erre The Iewes knewe not all that God hath taught his Church 30. The second exception is vnreasonable if you consider well what is done and the reason of it All Schollers as you knowe doe noe not addict their studies to the toÌ„gues the Hebrewe is so obscure that fewe doe attaine vnto anie reasonable knowledge of it and none at all in these later times especiallie to the comprehension of the tongue but by helpe of Dictionaries compiled by such as come short of the thing it selfe Of the 〈…〉 or of moderne Iewes not equall to the learned of the tyme wherein the Bookes were first written do endeuour what they can This experience hath taught vs Elias 〈…〉 in Habâ—â—â— Vide Genebrard in Psal 104. Serrar Prol. Bibl. c. 19. q. 6. Aliquoties dixi plurima vocabula esse quorum significatio ipsis etiam Hebraeis ignota est Luth. in Gen. c. 34 it is euident also in the continuation and transfusion of all languages to posteritie and Rabbines themselues doe confesse it In regard therefore that Schollers commonlie vnderstand not Hebrewe it hath euer beene thought conuenieÌ„t the Scripture should be translated into such a language as generallie they doe knowe which is Latine In the primitiue Church this was practised and among you it is allowed allso in so much that your predecessors Luther Caluin Beza Iunius and others
haue made euerie one his owne translation to binde his fellowes there vnto as the best and you haue not yet done translating and changing your translations whereas none of you can denie and all wise men doe see that if one translation could be generallie aggreed vppon it were best Now further because elder tymes as being neerer to the writers had better helpes and purer coppies it is better in the iudgment of all meÌ„ the translation be old and made in those tymes rather then now in this scarcitie of coppies this obscuritie of the language this want of the meanes which then were CoÌ„c Trid Sess 4. This considered the Catholique Church hath decreed in the Councell of Trent that among Latine translations the old and common by the longe vse of many ages approoued in the Church stand authentique and be taken for It is not any where declared by the Church that in the Clementine Edition the Vulgar Latine Translation is fullie restored to the Primitiue Integritie in all parts and words Our beleefe doth follow the declaration of the Church VVhat she defineth wee receaue THOSE who were vsed in the restitution of the Translation saie thus Accipa Christiano lector CLEMENTE summo Pontifico ANNVENTE veterem ac vulgatam Sacra Scripturae editionem quanta fieri potuit diligentia castigatam quam quidem sicut omnibus numeris absolutam pro humana imbecillitate affirmare deffieile est ita caeteris omnibus quae ad hanc vsque diem prodierunt emendatiorem purioremque esse minimè dubitandum Praefat. ad lect Some of Sixtus Bibles might be surreptitiously scattered and Iames might get a coppie but they were neuer openlie sould in Catholike Countries And the Church neuer beleeued the Correction to be so accurate that it could not be amended Decree of a Generall Councell for the fullnes of either correction I speake of them as of two in that sense as Iames doth you knowe there is none A Bull takes not force from the Printer nor from the Secretarie and Iames cannot prooue that Sixtus his Bull was euer authenticallie published By the records no such thing appeares The Church knowes not of it If it had bene it were not hard to accord all Remember what hath ben said in the former Chapter touching pretended opposition in Decrees and what I haue â—eere cited out of the Preface to the Bible such I tould you before wise men would haue but One aÌ„d this one to haue bene made long agoe when it might better be performed and to be lookt on by diuers able to iudge of the goodnes and better able and more impartiall then our selues Whence it followes that the wisest had not the decree at all bene made would yet haue chosen this it being the Old and coÌ„mon translation For it was made in the tyme of the Primitiue Church reuiewed in those daies by S. Hierome compared since by learned men in all ages to such originalls as in each age they could finde and vsed by the Church for manie hundred yeares 30. The Fountaines wee reuerence too and more fullie then you doe admitting and beleeuing whatsoeuer can be manifestlie prooued to belonge iustlie thereunto to the verie last word and letter And it is ignorance in you to say that in the Councell of Trent they be reiected The decree speakes of Latine editions onelie ex omnibus latinis editionibus quae circumferuntur c. and makes choise of one by generall vse loÌ„g before approoued True it is that the puritie of the fountaine it selfe in some places is called in question Calu. in in zach 11. inst l. 1. c 13. and Caluin your Master doth imagine that it runnes not allwaies cleerlie as you may see in his Institutions Luth. Enar in Esa c 9. Luther cryeth out on the Iewes for crucifying the text and what difficultie the Rabbines theÌ„selues haue appeares cleerely by their great Massoreth Wee haue more helpe then you all to knowe the truth in this question too wee admitte the doctrine of Tradition so must the Iewes so must you otherwise you know not which is text Wee haue allso the assistance of the holie Spirit in the Church to declare the veritie aÌ„d power of originalls where the generall necessitie of the Church doth require it and there is no Catholique in the world which is not readie to beleeue their puritie and integritie so farre as there is sufficient warrant for it 31. But how came these corruptions into the Bible this question you should haue putt vnto your Masters for my part I thinke the resolution of it nothing at all necessarie for our purpose Writers might easilie mistake especiallie considering the little difference of many Hebrewe Characters and the nicenes of the points and suppose the points be taken of there will be found some fault in the letters I knowe the Iewes are men and therefore if Gods assistance be not in the businesse their labour in counting letters giues me no securitie for how shall I knowe that their coppies were exact that the letters be dulie ordered c. which is requisite because the disposition and combination of the same letters may be diuers not onelie in one period which may serue to change the sense but in the same verie word and of the integritie in this kinde which is necessarie to the knowledge of the sense as also of the exact integritie of the Coppies which they numbred you can giue no generall warrant Againe besides the difficultie or impossibilitie of this you will be sore troubled yea it is vnpossible for you proceeding in your Protestant Principles to giue satisfaction yeauen to your owne fellowes in any part of Scripture whatsoeuer because you maintaine that all men notwithstanding the promise which God hath made vnto the Church may haue erred and consequentlie S. Ierom and S. Augustine aÌ„d others being men may likewise haue done so in determining or iudging which Scripture or writing is diuine especiallie since each part each verse is not a fundameÌ„tall as you speake I am not troubled at all in the busines but let the learned scanne the difficulties and sift things out remaining euer readie to beleeue what the Church hath or hereafter shall resolue touching the puritie the interpretation and sense of the whole or any part place or word of the text you and your Protestant Congregation with your distinction of fundamentall and not fundamentall haue no meanes to determine the integritie of the Scripture touching bookes parts verses words interpretation as in an other place I haue declared more at large THE SIXT CHAPTER Of the reall Presence 33. VVHen wee dispute you graunt the Reall Presence not able otherwise to make answere to Scripture and Antiquitie but when you dispute you declare manifestly that you beleeue it not You will not beleeue you say that the body of a man can be vnder the forme or shape of breade that the same thing can be in heauen and on the alter too If
the sixt Age wee haue the Testimony of seuerall * Concil Agath cap 470 GeruÌ„ den cap. 1 Aurelian â— 28. Turonens 2 cap 3. 4. ConstaÌ„tin act 1. citat Gaâ—ret Co. Gualt S. Greg. Magn. 4. Dial. c. 58 Hom. 37. in EuaÌ„ S. Aug. l. 1â— de Ciuit. c 22. Councells celebrated in many Nations wherein there is such expresse mention of the Masse as no tergiuersation can suffice But omitting that as allso the testimony of Remigius Cassiodorus Fulgentius and others of that time I content my self with the place before cited out of S. Gregorie because he was in communion with all the world Christ liuing himself immortallie is AGAINE SACRIFICED FOR VS in this Mysterie of the holie oblation In the begining of the sift age liued S. Augustine wheÌ„ Melchisedech did blesse Abraham there first appeared the Sacrifice which is offered now to God by Christians in ALL THE WORLD wee do not erect Altars wherein to sacrifice to Martyrs Idem l. 22 c. 10. but wee doe offer sacrifice to their God and ours The Sacrifice it self is the bodie of Christ And to the Iewes Open your eies at leingth Ibid. and see froÌ„ the east to the west not in one place as it was appointed you but in EVERIE PLACE offered the Sacrifice of the Christians Idem orat cont Iud. c 9.10.6 vide eundem de Ciuit. l. 17. c. 17. l. 18. c. 35. S. Ierom. adu Vigilant c. 3. vide S. Amb. ad Ps 38. not to what God soeuer but to the God of Israel who foretold it In the fourth age liued S. Ierome Ill therefore doth the Bysshop of Rome who ouer the venerable bones base dust according to thee Vigilantius of deade men Peeter and Paul doth offer Sacrifice and thinks their tombes to be Altars and this the Bisshops not of one towne onelie but of ALL THE WORLD doe who contemning Vigilantius enter into the Churches of the deade And Eusebius Bisshop of Caesarea speaking of those words of the Psalmist thou hast prepared a table in my sight c. He doth saith he Euseb Caesar Demonstr Euang l. 1. c. 10. in this openlie signifie the mysticall vnction and horrour-bringing Sacrifices of the table of Christ wherein operating wee are taught to offer VNBLOODIE and reasonable and sweete VICTIMES in our whole life to the most high God by his most eminent Priest of all And a little after vppon a place of Esaie they shall drinke wine c. Ibid. He doth prophecie to the Gentiles saith he the ioy of wine signifying therein somewhat obscurelie the mysterie of the newe Testament BY CHRIST instituted Idem orat de Lâ—â—d Constant which at this daie verilie IS OPENLIE celebrated in ALL NATIONS The same man in his Oration in the commendation of Constantine tells of Churches Altars Vide Cyp. l. 2. Ep. 3. and sacrifices in the whole world In the begining of the third age Sainct Cyprian did liue who saith S. Cypr. lib 1. ep 9. all that are honoured with diuine Priesthood and placed in Clericall ministerie ought not to serue but the Altar and Sacrifices and to follow their prayers and deuotions Our Lord aÌ„d God Iesus Christ is himself the most high Priest of God the Father Idem lib. â— ep 3. and he first of all hath offered SACRIFICE to God the Father and hath commaunded THE SAME to be donne for a commemoration of him Tertullian Tertall l. ad Scapul c. 2. S. Iren. l. 4. adu Haere c. 32. wee doe offer Sacrifice for the saftie of the Emperour to our God and his In the second age liued Ireneus and Iustinus both Saincts the one saith He Christ tooke that breade which is of the creature and gaue thankes saying this is my bodie and likewise he coÌ„fessed the Chalice which is of the creature which is according vnto vs to be his blood aÌ„d taught the new oblation of the new testament which the Church RECEAVING FROM THE APOSTLES doth offer to god in ALL THE WORLD S. Iustin Dial. cum Tryphone The other Euen then he Malichias foretold of our Sacrifices of Gentiles which are offered IN EVERIE PLACE that is of the breade of the Eucharist and the cuppe likewise of the Eucharist c. Ibid. God preuenting doth wittnes all those to be gratefull vnto him who offer thorough his name the sacrifices which Iesus Christ deliuered to be donne that is in the Eucharist of breade and the Chalice which are donne by Christians IN EVERIE PLACE 76. And heere I name againe the Liturgies of the Churches of Rome of AlexaÌ„dria of Ierusalem and of Aethiopia wherein is euident acknowledgmeÌ„t of this Vnbloodie Sacrifice in forme of breade and wine whereof I speake in so much that all these Liturgies and generallie the Liturgies of all knowne Christian Churches that euer yet were of anie note in the world consent and agree heerein If you denie these were auncient I bringe against you all these Churches who professe and beleeue to haue receaued them from hand to hand euen from the Apostles Thus other bookes haue beene deliuered vnto vs from Antiquitie And this Tradition must haue equall force in the deliuering of these bookes I adde further that all Churches cannot erre in tradition of Bookes otherwise you could neither be certaine of anie worke of anie Father as of S. Augustine S. Ierom c. nor of anie part of the Bible since therefore all knowne Churches agree in the receipt of the Liturgie from the Apostles you must beleeue it or else with the same pretense you may refuse the Bible too 77. Next I name the Apostles who taught a propitiatorie Vnbloodie Sacrifice in forme of breade and wine and did also say Masse Our B. Sauiour also at his last supper did offer this die Sacrifice 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Sacrificantibus autem illis domino Act. 13. v. 2. vert Eras remember what I cited but now out of S. Ireneus The Liturgies of S. Peeter S. Iames S. Matthew and Sainct Mark are yet extant as I haue declared by the Gospell in the first booke and the thing is so cleere that you cannot auoide it if you take the words of Scripture in their proper sense as the Church hath euer donne So well is the Masse grounded for which wee suffer now In the Masse you are to distinguish the substance of the sacrifice oblation consecration and the consumption of the sacred hoast or eating of the victime in this vnbloodie forme by the Priest from the Epistle Gospell prayers ceremonies c. the first was euer since and euerie where the same the second not names of Saincts prayers ceremonies might be and yet may be changed by the Church 78. To all this I adde further the testimonie of the holie Ghost the Spirit of Truth and Interpreter of Gods word for that sense wherein the Catholique Church spred ouer the world doth and euer did from the begining vniuersallie consent
of it which he declares largelie in old Heretiques and the same wee see in the moderne by experience and then concludes that it is therefore verie necessarie in regard of so many windings of errour to direct the line of propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation according to the rule of the ecclesiasticall and Catholique sense 83. This is heere sufficient for Traditions diuine and Apostolicall which the Spiritte of the Church being to leade vnto all truth doth distinguish from such as are false and superstitious and doth easilie defend against all you can say The Scripture hath not one word against them as anie man will easilie see who doth but marke what he doth reade and will not take speaking for writing which the most ignorant with attention can distinguish in them selues being able to doe the one and not the other And the Fathers are cleere as you haue seene requiring euer tradition as indeed it is required for the Scripture and for the sense though the written word be perfect within its owne bouÌ„ds You allso though you loath it neuer so much must needs admitte of it for the Scripture for the number of Canonicall bookes for the pars of them for the sense and for other things you being not able anie other way in the world to answeare anie man who would denie them or to persuade him to beleeue that you haue the word of God or anie part of it Moreouer this doctrine is by generall consent of the Church defined in the Councells of Nice and Trent and hath beene the meanes whereby the Catholique Church hath conserued vntill now the word of God and therefore the contrarie open Heresie being opposite vnto Gods expresse words which I haue put downe in the begining of this chapter and to the beleefe of the old Fathers of generall Councells and of the Church 84 The text all scripture is profitable c. is answeared in the first booke c. 4. It is profitable true but it is not all sufficient It is sufficient too in one kinde for the written word but nor in all kinds not all-sufficient Tradition and diuine Assistance are necessarie too each in their kinde doth concurre Tradition is more generall then writing it deliuers the scripture and the sense of it and can teach also without writing and did before the Scripture was extant This Tradition relieth vppon the diuine Assistance whereof I haue discoursed largelie the third booke and neede not repeate it heere Particular causes in this lower world are sufficient in their kinde a horse to generate a horse a man to generate a man but the effect is not produced without the concurrence of higher causes The Sunne and a man saith the Philosopher produce a man The inferiour and superiour causes are sufficient in their kinds and yet vnles the prime and most vniuersall cause doth concurre nothing is produced You are to prooue that the Scriture is sufficient in all kinds if you will exclude tradition To all your peaching your mouth is profitable and sufficient too in that kinde you need not two mouthes but wthout a tongue you cannot doe it Mouth and tongue are profitable and sufficient in their kindes but you cannot doe it without braines braines and witte are profitable and sufficient in their kinds but all will not serue without learning So that you see the argument is not good it is profitable and to all therefore all-sufficient 85. And thus I am come at last to the end of this part also hauing answeared the chiefest things which you oppose in the decrees of the Church and shewed how the Church representatiue is vniustlie accused of errour The Decrees of generall Councells were beleeued before Caluin had any Schoole and will be when he hath neuer a Scholler In them is the highest TEACHING AVTHORITIE in the world and therefore the Schollers of Iesus Christ must beleeue what they define The sheepe are not to choose their pasture ould wiues and plowmen are not to decide Controuersies in Religion they are not to asceÌ„d the Chaire and expound Scripture to the world No the Pastors must doe this Mat. 28. Act. 20.10.21 Ephes 4. The Apostles aÌ„d their successors were sent to teach God put Bisshops to rule the Church he charged Peeter to feede his flocke The pastors are to teach The sheepe to learne 86. In generall Councells the Pastors are are assembled their Authoritie is vnited there to moue the Whole to teach the Church The Church is to followe their common direction and therefore it belonges to Gods prouidence to assist them defining And the whole Church vniuersallie doth beleeue that such Councells are assisted and cannot erre learned vnlearned people and Pastors all beleeue it and all the Church as I shewed you before cannot erre The Apostles did beleeue it allso and so vnderstood the promise of Iesus Christ Act. 15. Io. 16. when he said that the holie Ghost should teach them all truth God rules and moues the lower world by the higher The heauens vertue doth begette and conserue things heere on earth To the heauens for the regularitie of their Motion he hath addicted an Intelligence Our Sauiour hath so disposed his Church that the Laitie are mooued and gouerned in matters of Religion by the Clergie Rom. 20. Rom. 10. The Pastors begette and conserue in the people faith by preaching the the word of God And to the Pastors for the Regularitie of their Motion he hath left an Assisting Spirit Io. 16. the Holie Ghost the Spirit of Truth The Christian truth is to be learned in the Schoole of Iesê° Christ this Schoole is the the Catholique Church The highest CHAIER in it is a Perfect Oecumenicall COVNCELL No man hath or can with any apparence pretend as will appeare in the examination a fuller participation of the TEACHING POWER then such a Councell 87. To make an end therefore coÌ„sider well what I do saie That definitioÌ„ which the Catholique Church vniuersallie Of Church proposition there is more in the third booke where I haue allso told you how the diuine authoritie aÌ„d the Church authoritie doe moue both in seuerall kinds to the same acte doth take for a sufficâ—eÌ„â— direction of her faith by way of Proposition IS FREE froÌ„ errour Otherwise the Catholique Church vniuersallie might erre which is vnpossible as I haue declared in the third booke Now the Catholique Church vniuersallie doth take the definition of the Councell which SHEE ESTEEMETH Oecumenicall to be a sufficient direction of her faith by waye of Proposition as I haue declared there also And hence it comes that the definition of a Councell ESTEEMED by the Catholique Church Oecumenicall is free froÌ„ errour Will you haue another way without recourse to such a Councell Take this What the Bisshops diffused those I meane who are in the Catholique communioÌ„ do vniformelie teach is true If you should oppose that they are many and that you cannot know the doctrine of them all being diffused I would answere that by their communion with the See Apostolique their doctrine is knowne sufficiently for this purpose aÌ„d their communion is very manifest vnto all Where you must note that it is the exteriour professioÌ„ which I atteÌ„d vnto PropositioÌ„ this is easilie knowne and this as farre as it is vniforme in ALL Bishops in the Catholique communioÌ„ be they many or few so they be all is WARRANTED by the Holie Ghost and by this exteriour proposition or commoÌ„ doctrine whatsoeuer els any of them thinke secretly in their mindes I am to be directed Ephes 4. Mat. 28.10.16 He Christ gaue Pastors that wee be not wauering Teach all Nations and behold I am with you The spirit of truth shall teach you all truth If you dispute againe meddle not with points not yet agreed vppon among vs. Talke not of things controuerted in our Schooles at this daie The proposition which you oppose if you will oppose me must be a Catholique proposition agreed on generally by the Church Other things I can dispute in our owne Schooles and with such as know them better then you doe
of their visibilitie But God as I said hath not yet permitted the booke of life to be coppied out and diuulged Iohn 4.23 1. Io. 2.27 109. You obiect first that true worshippers adore in Spirit and truth and vnction teacheth all This is true But those worshippers those ānointed are in the Church they are a part ād the chiefest part of the visible communitie whereof I haue spoken in the second booke they are in the visible fold of Christ Were the Apostles and the rest of their Religion the true Church or no were they was that Bodie that communitie visible or inuisible their sermons were not they heard were not their writings seene went not their sound ouer all the world why then they were visible As for the vnctiō it teacheth the Catholique Church it teacheth men to giue assent to such things as the Apostles then did and their Successors now doe propose They may preach and be heard allso but without vnction the people will not beleeue 1. Cor. 3. Paul planteth and Apollo watereth but God giueth the increase In the same Catholique Church are those adorers in Spirit and in the middest of it the sanctification of God is foreuer The Apostles did they adore in Spirit or no if they did whie may not a visible Church do so if they did not who will beleeue that you do 110. Secondlie you obiect that there are none in the Church but predestinate If you speake of the Church triumphant you say true if you speake of the militant Church it is not so for all those that for a tyme adhere vnto this bodie and are parts of it do not finallie perseuere some are multiplied aboue number and beleeue a while but reuolt and fall of before they die The Church militant is the companie of beleeuers in communion with S. Peeter and his See It is the companie of Catholiques And Catholiques some are in charitie and in the grace of God and are saued some die in mortall sinne some loose their faith at last 1. Tim 1. In the primitiue Church some made shipwracke of their faith as Hymeneus and Alexander saith the Apostle Some do beleeue for a tyme said our B. Sauiour Luk. 8.1 and in tyme of tēptation do reuolt And the Spirit manifestlie saith that in the last tymes certaine shall depart from the faith attending to the Spiritts of errour 1. Tim. 4 Matth. 2 14. Many are called but fewe chosen There are some with wedding garments and some without some wise virgins some foolish some corne some chaffe some vessells of honour some of dishonour some good some bad some predestinate some reprobate in the Church The predestinate will perseuer the rest will not 111. I come now to the second part of this Chapter wherein I am to loosesome tyme in asking a question or two about your dombe-preaching Church about the Saincts of your election about those people which were in all tymes but neuer before Luther and in all Nations before his tyme but no wherein the world And I demand first whether all the rest were like you or no if they were why then were they inuisible You say you are predestinate and yet you are visible notwithstanding your predestination and a member of that Church whie then might not the other men be visible allso euerie one of thē and the whole visible 112. I demaund secondlie whether you do knowe the rest of your Church the rest of your predestinate breethren or whether you knowe none of that Church but your selfe onely ād whether euery one in that Church knowe himselfe onelie and no more If you do not knowe any of them what Societie cā you haue among you what gouerment what forme of a Church If you do knowe any I desire to heare how wee finde not your names in the Scripture the booke of life is not printed with the Gospell 2. Tim. 2.19 Iohn 10.14 wee reade there that our Lord knowes who be his that our greate Pastor knowes his sheepe That you can do it that you can number all his sheepe that you can point them out wee reade not I pray you howe come you to knowe the secret is it by exterior profession that serues not they may dissemble and which is worse for you none professed your religion for 900 yeeres togeather and therefore by profession you knowe none in all that tyme. Neither would an vnfained profession haue serued the turne for euerie one that persuades himselfe that he beleeues is not constant in the faith nor predestinate What then be the certaine markes whereby you knowe your inuisible brethrē that wee may knowe them too or do you not indeed knowe them Remember what hath ben said in the first booke if you knowe them let vs heare the markes the markes of a predestinated Protestant and bringe vs one example any tyme for 900. yeeres before Luther of such a man an example out of questiō a manifest example If you do not knowe them you cannot conferre with them in your difficulties you cannot helpe them in their necessities you cannot meete in Councell as the Apostles and Pastors did in the primitiue Church you cannot haue the face nor the gouerment of a Church 133. I must examine further by your leaue In your Catholique Church of predestinate is there order or confusion are there Pastors ād Doctors and Bysshops or no Bysshops no Pastors no Doctors is there a Hierarchie or not are the preachers and Superintendents seene and heard or how are the things dōne The reason of my demand or doubt is because this Catholique Church of yours is inuisible and therefore it seemes that no man can see the Preacher otherwise many in the companie might see him if not all and so he were visible He allso might see them he preached vnto and so they were visible too and consequentlie the whole companie and the whole Church were visible not inuisible 114. It might seeme by your talke that this holie Congregation of yours hath greate eares and no eies for if they had eies they might then see the Ministers that instructe them they might see their Superintendents Or if they can heare and not see these Ministers their eares reach a greate deale further then their eies But this will not content me neither if yo graunt it for that which may be heard makes a noise and by the noise discouers it selfe if therefore your predestinated Preachers haue made a noise in the world the Christians or Papists liuing with them should haue heard it though they could not see those inuisible men and this at least would be found on record as other wonders are to wit That in all Christian countries there was a Protestant noise ād sermons euerie where in euerie Nation but no preacher seene this would haue bene found in the Chronicles of all countries and some would haue bene so curiouse as to haue noted the points of the Sermons and set downe the doctrine But