Selected quad for the lemma: spirit_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
spirit_n	holy_a	lord_n	people_n	7,137	5	4.6663	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A90883	Certaine scruples from the army: presented in a dialogue betweene a minister of the new moulded Presbytery, and a souldier of his Excellencies (formerly new-moulded, but now despised) army. Being the substance of severall discourses, of the souldiers with the ministers in divers parts of the kingdom. Wherein the doubtfulnesse of the ministers new old, or old new calling, is manifested, their compelling principle detected: the practise of souldiers, and others, exercising themselves in the Scriptures, for their mutuall edifying, justifyed. / By one of the kingdomes servants, in the army.	Pounset, John.	1647 (1647)	Wing P3039B; Thomason E390_21; ESTC R201540	20,790	31

bee made of it but Sir you must beare with me I for my own part doe not know that it makes a man ever the more able to understand the mind of God in the Scriptures much lesse that it is the only thing to make a man a Preacher Presb. I doe not say it is the only thing for there must bee that teaching which you speake of and there must also be an outward call without which no man ought to preach Sould. Sir I pray you tell me what you mean by an outward call Presb. It is a setting apart to the Ministry by laying on the hands of the Presbytery Sould. What Presbytery doe you mean Presb. The Ministers Sould. If this bee the only way of making Ministers then is the Pope and the Bishops as true Ministers as you Presb. No they are not for they are Antichristian Sould Then so are you for you are Ministers by their setting you apart and laying their hands upon you it is acknowledged in the ordinance for making Ministers to be valid and you know that Pope Gregory made Augustin the Monk Bishop of Doribernia and he made more Bishops Pope Gregory sent a Pall to Augustin into England giving him power to make 12 Bishops and to the Bishop of York he promised to give a Pall when Austin had ordained him that he might make 12 Bishops so they grew into many hundreds as it is at this day Act. Mon. p. 116.118 and they made more Bishops and they made more and so it passed from hand to hand and by your ground the line of your Ministery must successively come from the Apostles and I wonder how both ends will hold together when the middle is taken away viz. the Popes and Bishops But because you say none may preach without this calling I doe desire a proofe thereof for I thinke the contrary will be proved although the calling you speak of were granted to bee right Presb. I will prove it no man takes this honour unto himselfe but hee that is called of God as was Aaton Heb 5.4 Sould. you have brought Scripture I confesse but not to your purpose for it onely intends Aaron and his successours the type and Jesus Christ in the antitype as the 5. Ver. doth declare and is not at all intended of the Ministers of the Gospel Presb. But there is an equity in it that bolds to the Ministers of the Gospel Sould. I grant that the Ministers of the Gospel ought to have a lawfull outward call which whether that that you plead for bee so or no I question But I shall prove that preaching the word in the sense before specified by you is not tyed up in the hands of Ministers but is the worke of every one that hath learned Christ as hath in part been proved and will yet be made more evident You see in the former quoted place of Acts. 8.4 those that were sca●ered abroad were not Ministers in office for those were not scattered abroad Ver. 1. Yet they preached every where up and downe in the Countries and were instruments of much peoples turning to the Lord Chap. 11.19.20.21 And when tidings of this came to the Church at Jerusalem they sent Barnabas but it was not to punish those ancalled preachers as I perceive you should have done but rather to incourage them and when bee was came hee was glad to see the grace of God accompanying their worke and instead of telling the people that they must take heed of such besi●odies as had been among them or the like hee exhorted them with purpose of heart they should cleave to the Lord Ver. 23 hee did well in it for the text adds hee was a good man and full of the holy Spirit ver 24. Presb. I grant that those in Act. 8. did preach but it was in a time of persecution Sould. Then it seemes by your speeches that when you have got the power which you so much labour for to persecute us we may preach but I think that if it be lawfull in time of persecution it is also lawfull in time of peace for we must not doe the least evill that the greatest good may come of it Presb. But that was when there was but few Ministers so that there was then more need of their preaching then there is now Sould. There was never any need of an evill practice to accomplish the work of God and if it had been an evill act the Apostles would not have sat still at Jerusalem Act. 8.17 and suffered these men to have gone preaching up and down the Countries but would forth-with have substituted some to be officers to have done it and forbad the other But I will give you more Scripture that so by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established you may see in Phil. 1.14 Paul tels the Philipians that his bonds had caused many of the Brethren in the Lord to speak the word without fear Presb. But by your favour sir he meant the Ministers Sould. No sir He did not mean the Ministers for he sayes That many of the Brethren in the Lord were imboldned to speak the word without fear if he had meant the Ministers he could not have said Many of the Brethren for there could not be many Ministers at Rome for we read but of one Church there so that I suppose there was not above two or three Ministers at the most for ought that can be gathered Presb. But I doe beleeve they were Ministers of whom the Apostle spake this is but your own interpretation Sould. Then I pray you sir let us heare your interpretation Presb. I say they were Ministers for otherwise the Apostle would have reproved them for Preaching Sould. That I deny for the Apostles never forbad any to preach but she onely that preached by the spirit of the Devill Act. 16.17 18. But did rejoyce that Christ was preached though out of envy Phil. 1.15.18 Presb. Then you think if the Mayd in Act. 16. had not spake by the spirit of the devill the Apostle would not have forbad her to preach Sould. No why should he Presb. I thought where I should have you then it seemes women and all may preach by your grounds Sould. Yes for it is warranted by Scriptures for I know no difference between preaching and prophecying for prophecying is to speak to edification exhortation and comfort 1 Cor. 14.3 and it is cleare that women may prophesie 1 Cor 11.5 Where the Apostle saith Every woman that prayeth or prophesieth having her head uncovered dishonoureth her head so then she may both pray and prophesie with her head covered The woman of Samaria brought many of her City to beleeve in Corist by her testify●● what shee had heard and learned of Christ Joh. 4.39 Priscilla did preach the way of God more perfectly to him that was a Preacher of it before Act. 18.26 Paul intreateth his true yoke fellow to helpe those women which

death annexed to be insticted upon those that shall yet undertake to doe it Sould. These are notable reasons indeed but let us a little examine them whether they will hold or no First you say they want learning if by Learning you mean those visible gifts of tongues miracles healing c. you are as unlearned as they if you meane by learning the teachings of the spirit they are so taught also but if you mean by learning the art of tongues and the Art of Astronomy or Astro●●gie or any of the other Arts learned and taught in the Schooles then I confesse they core short of you in Learning but I conceive that these in themselves conduce but little to inable a man to Preach Presb. No what say you to the gift of Tongues Sould. I say it were well if you had it Presb. Why have wee it not Sould. No. Presb. Can we not speck divers Tongues Sould. Yes by art but not by gift Presb. What is the difference Sould. Very much for first those that had the gift of tongues spake as the spirit taught them immediately Act. 2.4 but you speak as men have taught you in the Schooles Secondly those that spake by the gift of tongues could speak to all Nations under heaven if there were occasion Act. 2.8.9 10 11. but if there should be never so much need to speak to drvers Nations you could speak to no more of them than those whose speech you had learned in the Schooles Thirdly these that spake by the gift of tongues spake the cleare minde of God in the severall tongues without pervertang either the one or the other but you as I my selfe have heard differ among your selves one sayes it is thus in the Originall and another sayes it is not so wherein then doe those which you say may not preach come short of you in that learning which makes us spiritually know the minde of God in the Scriptures Presb. They know not the originall Sould. I think no more doe you for I suppose you will grant that there are at least sixteen severall Greek Copies which then is the Originall Presb. What though that cannot be so clearly determined yet it is sure those that know the tongues and have learning are better able to understand the minde of God in the Scriptures then those that have not learning and so are more fit to preach Sould. It is according as they are taught by the Spirit for if those which you call unlearned be more learned by the Spirit then they though they want the other learning are most able to understand and therefore most able to make known the minde of God to others and let me tell you that I think there are as many ignorant men among those you call Learned as there is of any one sort of men again in the Kingdome if you compare number with number so that I may safely conclude that those that are taught by the Spirit whether they be learned or not learned in you sense are the most fit and able to declare the minde of God and I will prove it by the Scripture Peter and John were unlearned Act. 4.13 Yet able men being thus taught and I think it will not be denyed but among those five thousand that were scattered abroad Act. 8.1 there were unlearned men yet they went every where preaching the word ver 4. and God did wonderfully blesse their preaching so that a great number beleeved and turned to the Lord thereby Act. 11.21 Likewise Stephen was one that for ought we can read had no learning but being full of the holy spirit preached mightily insomuch that all his adversaries were not able to resist the spirit by which bee spake Act. 6.10 Presb. But Stephen was chosen into an office Sould. But it was only an office to feed the poor not to preach Presb. But Stephen did not preach be did but dispute Sould. The one is but to declare the minde of God and so is the other and I know no great difference unlesse you think the one is a more intrenching upon your prerogative then the other Presb. But Paul was a man that was learned Sould. I confesse he was but you can hardly find another among all the Disciples of Christ and I doe not well know what good it did him neither for he made no use of it in preaching the Gospel Presb. How doe you know that Sould. Hee sayes so himselfe 1 Cor. 2.1 2 3 4 5 6. You see hee disclaimes all the the wisdome of men and that which is taught by men when he came to preach the Gospell Presb. But doth not Peter say that unlearned ones wrest the Scriptures to their owne destruction Sould. It is true but if hee had ment such unlearned ones as are unlearned in your sence it had been sad newes to those or at least to most of those to whom he wrot who were the Saints scattred here and there throughout Pontus Galatra Cappadocia Asia and B thynia also Peter himselfe and his fellows must have been of those that did wrest the Scriptures to their owne destruction and as sad would it have beene to the people of God ever since who cannot bee conceived to bee one among five hundred of them learned in humane arts and tongues but if it had been so that Peter had ment such unlearned ones then it would have made your distinction hold between Clergy and Layity for then you onely would bee the Lords inheritance Presb. Well for all your prating wee shall have a course taken with you If you will not give over preaching and meddle with your own businesse wee will have you foundly punished Sould. That is like enough for many of you schoole-men have ever been very well read in that kinde of learning to hunt and weary and suck the blood of the harmlesse lambs of Christ Histories of all ages can witnesse it Presb. It seems then that you count learning to bee of no use Sould. Yes I will tell you of some use that it serves to As first that it helps to lift some of you up high above your brethren and procures you great esteem in the world and greetings in the Markets and the uppermost rooms at feasts and makes you live an idle life much unlike those Tent making preachers who laboured night and day with their owne bands that they might not bee chargable 1 Thes 2.9 And there is another use thereof and that is when any of you fall into an erronious way you can draw more after you then any men therefore it is said of the false Prophets that they should deceive many Mat. 24.5 And looke upon all the sects that have been broached in the world and you shall find that the first broachers and cheife leaders in the same for the most part were learned men Presb. Then it seems you thinke that there is no good use of learning Sould. Yes I doe not question but that there is very good use to

against David because hee hath not sinned against thee and because his workes have been very good to thee wards for he put his life in his hand and slew the Philistims and the Lord wrought a great salvation thou sawest it and didst rejoyce in it Wherefore then wilt thou sin against innocent blood and slay David without a cause 1 Sam. 19.4 5. his answer was as the Lord liveth hee shall not bee slain ver 6. Presb. There is no body goes about to take away your lives or in any wise to hurt you if you will bee juled Sould. Ruled by whom would you have us be ruled by God or by you Presb. By God and by us too for wee will command you nothing but what is the minde of God Sould. But when your prohibitions come in competition with Gods Commands wee must mind his commands and not regard your prohibitions your selves being Judges Presb. That I grant when they doe so Sould. I have already proved that they doe so and your selves prove it for you say none shall preach but those that you appoint and God hee commands all his people to assemble together and not forsake the assembling of their selves together but exhort one another daily while it is called to day And tells us the danger of neglecting it least saith the Apostle any of you should bee hardned by the deceitfullnesse of sin Heb. 10.24.25 and Chap. 3.13 Presb. Who will hinder you but that you may exhort one another Sould. Will not you Presb. No why should wee Sould. Why should you truly I know no reason why you should Presb. No more doe I but you cannot content your selves with exhorting one another but you must be preaching one to another Sould. Can you distinguish between preaching and exhorting taking preaching according to the definition your selfe gave of preaching in the beginning of our discourse Presb. Yes I can for you may exhort your friend as you meet him occasionally but when you preach you meet together on purpose to that end Sould. You must grant both or else as much as in you lies you hinder us of doing our duty which God enjoynes us which is to assemble our selves together as I have already proved Heb. 10.25 Presb. Then we shall have you meet by hundreds together Sould. The more the merrier if it be lawfull and it be the duty of two to meet together to exhort and stir up one another to love and good workes then it is as lawfull and the duty often and so of twenty and so of a hundred if so many can be found but alas there is in many Countries hardly halfe so many to be found in a whole Countrey that looke after Religion any otherwise then the custome of the place is and the fashion of the time be it what it will be neither have they any means of further light having none to preach to them in ten nay in twenty miles about and yet you will be like those to whom Christ pronounceth woe Matth. 23.13 You shut up the kingdome of heaven you will not goe abroad to preach to them your selves nor suffer those that would and so much as in you is you hinder the salvation of men whose perishing will in part therefore be upon your account therefore let me give you one exhortation Repent betime of this into erable wickednesse if peradventure the thoughts of your hearts may be forgiven you tell the people you have beene enemies to their soules and bodies but you will be so no more bid the people of God be constant and frequent in meeting together as their duty bindes them labour to incourage them so much the more by how much you have laboured to discourage them so shal you approve your selves to be of Sauls that out of zeale have persecuted the people of God to become Pauls such as rejoyce that Christ is held out every manner of way yea though it be by Mecanicks whom you now so much despise Presb. If we should doe so then we make every mecanick equall without selves and so as I said at the first our Ministery will bee slighted Sould. You know that the Ministers of Christ must deny themselves in all selfe-ends You are not to minister for your selves but for Christ and if it tend to the honour of Christ and the furtherance of his Kingdome it ought to be your joy as it was Pauls Phil. 1.14 Presb. But we must live of our Ministery and if you be suffered to preach our hearers will follow after you because you preach for nothing and if they begin to see that they can have preaching for nothing they will hold us short enough in our means Sould. All this is but carnall reasoning if you will or dare trust God with your condition he will surely provide for you you using a lawfull meanes viz. using some lawfull way or calling to supply your selves that so with the Apostle you may make the Gospel without charge you see his care was such 2 Thess 3.8 Neither tooke we bread of any man for nought saith he but wee wrought with labour and travell night and day that we might not bee chargeable to any of you 1 Cor. 9.18 What is my reward then verily when I preach the Gospel I make the Gospel without charge that I abuse not my power in the Gospel Acts 20.33 34. I have covered no mans silver nor gold nor apparrell 〈◊〉 yee your selves know that these bands have ministred to my necessities and to those that were with me Yet God provided for Paul notwithstanding he made the Gospel thus without charge Presb. Then you thinke we should doe as the Apostle did Sould. If you be the Ministers of Christ why should you not in case of need Presb. We lave not been brought up to labour with our hands Sould. The more blame for those that brought you up but I beleeve it was Pauls case for be was brought up at the sees of Canaliet neverthelesse when the Lord called him to bee a Preacher of the gospell he could say his hands to work Presb. But wee have worke enough to study Sould. Why is that but because you depend to much upon outward helps and to little upon the teaching of the spirit Pres How doe you know wee depend so much upon the one and so little upon the other Soul Because you must have a time to study Paul could spend much of his time in labouring with his hands Presb. But wee cannot live as Paul did in such a mean condition having families to maintaine Sould. The greater a mans family is the more need hee hath to take paines and if that be too little the spirit of love in the Saints is not so farre lost but that they will supply that which is wanting to him that doth his endeavour Presb. If wee should have but what people would freely give us we should bee poore enough Sould. That is like enough for you never finde in the scripture that the Ministers