betweene the true reuelations of the Lord and the Word which proceeding from him is as true as the reuelation And the reuelation reciprocally as true as the Word Yet doth it not therefore follow that the word and the reuelations of the spirit of the Lord by the which we may be conducted to the vnderstanding of the word are not things different and that the one doth not go before the other And where the said Vigor prayeth the said De Spina to hasten to the point he answereth That he cannot else where ground his answeres then vpon the demaundes which be made vnto him Reply Whereunto the said Vigor replyed that hee referred himselfe touching the sence to that which is touched in the answere of the said De Spina And where he saith that the word goeth before the reuelation that is of no value to make difference vpon the question proposed And to come to the point the said Vigor demaundeth whether a man may be assured that he hath reuelation from the Lord that a booke is a booke of the holy Scripture and when he may iudge assuredly of his inward inspiration Also how he can assure any of this inspiration giuen him of the Lord Answere Touching the first Article of the last demaund It is not a thing impertinent to distinguish the scripture from the interpretation thereof inaâ—much as they bee things diuers and diuers gifts of the Lord. And to answer to the question proposed how a particular man before the reuelation and inward testimonie of the spirit of God in his heart may acknowledge that it is Canonicall The spirit of God varieth not from himselfe And abiding in one particular man he wil acknowledge the Scripture which is come from him and beareth his markes And for answere to the second demand hee also saith that the selfe same spirit beeing likewise in a third person will acknowledge both that the word and the reuelation are of him for the reasons alledged That is to say that the spirit of God in diuers persons is alwayes equall and like vnto himselfe Obiection This is no full satisfaction to the first question proposed by the which it was demaunded how some man may iudge in himselfe that hee hath the holy Ghost to discerne one Booke to be the holy Scripture and another not but Apocrypha and how he may declare vnto another that he hath his inspiration from God Answere The spirit of God is called a seale in the scripture therefore is it that the first effect which it produceth in the heart of him vnto whom it is communicated is to assure him of his presence As for assuring a secoÌ„d person of the reuelation that one hath receiued of the spirit of God it is easie Forasmuch as the spirit of God which openeth the mouth of the one to speake doth also open the eares of the other to listen to his word and the heart to beleeue it to be perswaded thereof So that betweene the maister and the scholler between the teacher and the hearer when they be both furnished and enlightened by the Spirit of God there is alwayes one mutuall consent to acknowledge one another Obiection Such certaintie is a great incertaintie And there is not any of what sect soeuer which doeth not assure himselfe to haue the holy Ghost and the trueth on his side which is a foolish presumption How can a man distinguish a presumption from a true inspiration Answere S. Iohn Chrisostome saith that in vaine a man boasteth of the spirit without the word which is a meane to represse sectes and heresies and to iudge of all things which heretiques others would propose vnder the authoritie tytle of the Spirit of God For as by the spirit we know the true sence of the word so do we also mutually acknowledge by the word who those be which haue the spirit of God or no. Obiection This is no answere to the question For the question is not to examine the doctrine by the word but the question is to know whether it be the word of God by which a man will examine and approoue a doctrine And how a man shall iudge assuredly that hee hath a reuelation of the Lord that that is the word of God Answere If he be faithfull therefore shall he iudge by the Spirit of God which is in him as in him which telleth the same vnto him And if he be vnfaithfull as impossible it is that he should iudge thereof as it is to a blinde man to iudge and discerne of colours presented vnto him Forasmuch saieth S. Paul as the Spirit of God is he by whom wee know and iudge the things that are of God Obiection Yet is not this an answere to the question proposed let the iudgement thereof be left to the readers and hearers Now make they another demaund that is to say Whether we be not very certaine by the word of God that the Lord doeth assist his Church and will assist it vnto the end of the world And whether it be not a more assured thing to stay on the consent and iudgement of the Church touching the determination of the Canonicall bookes of the holy Scripture the distinction of them from the Apocrypha then to leane vpon his owne iudgement esteeming it to bee an inward inspiration whereof a man can make no proofe but supposeth that he hath the holy Ghost Answere The Doctors doo confound the opinions which fantasticke men may haue with the witnesses and reuelations of the holy Ghost although betweene those two there is as much distance as is from heauen to earth And as touching the consent of the Church suppose that it proceedeth from the spirit of God Infallable it is also certaine that particular reuelations may be as of Esay and other Prophets And forasmuch as the one and the other do proceed from one selfe same Authour which is the Spirit of trueth The certaintie of the reuelations of God his Spirit made vnto all the Church in generall and to euery member of it in particular is of one selfe same moment Obiection The Minsters cannot shew to the Catholiques nor to any others that they are not fantasticall for asmuch as they make no proofe more then do other sects of the reuelation of the holy Ghost made vnto them and as touching that is said suppose that it proceedeth froÌ„ the Spirit of God They doubt it seemeth of the assistance of the holy Ghost in the Church of God which saith S. Paul is Columna firmameÌ„tuÌ„ veritatis the pillar ground of truth And a thing it is to be wel considered that they are more certain of the assistaÌ„ce of the Lord in one particular person then in the Church vniuersal And where they say that to know the truth the holy Spirit assisteth as well euery member of the Church as the whole church By that might a man conclude that the particular faithful could neuer erre that the
Acts of the Dispute and Conference holden at Paris in the Moneths of Iuly and August 1566. Betweene two Doctors of Sorbon and two Ministers of the Reformed Church A most excellent Tract wherein the learned may take pleasure and the ignorant reape knowledge Translated out of French by Iohn Golburne and diuided according to the daies Magna est veritas praeualet Ecclesiasticus 33. 16. Behold how I haue not laboured only for my selfe but for all them also that seeke knowledge LONDON Printed by Thomas Creede 1602. TO THE RIGHT Honorable Sir Thomas Egerton Knight Lord Keeper of the great Seale of England Chamberlaine of the Countie Palatine of Chester and of her Maiesties most Honorable priuie Counsaile I. G. wisheth all health honour and euerlasting happinesse RIght Honourable my good Lorde If affectionate dutie shall be held presumption or any taxe me of rashnesse for still troubling your Lordship with my rude labors I plead mine excuse with the Poet Affranius who blamed for guilt of like crime to Traian yet dared to present him with homely Poems excusing himselfe still with the curtesie of the Emperour which as Princely accepted as the other poorely offered And so shrowded with the shelter of your honorable curtesie I shall be shielded from the stormes of idle imputations stop as did Affranius the mouthes of my Taxors and aduenture once more to present vnto your Lordship my prison-night-watches as a simple token of my thankfulnesse and pledge of further dutie then deeming my selfe happie when I may acknowledge your honourable goodnesse with any performance of dutie or acceptable seruice to your Lordship to whom both my self and poore endeuours are wholy deuoted The worthy and necessary vse of this Treatise I leaue to the graue iudgment of learned Censors and in all dutie and zeale do offer it to your Lordships Patronage assure me of your like good as former acceptance For a good vine yeeldes grapes still answerable to it nature and an honourable mind the fruits of an honorable disposition Long liue and prosper ho. Lord Pater sis Patriae Ecclesiae Reipublicae charus So in all humilitie I take leaue Fleete this 25. of March 1602. Your Lordships most bounden in all dutifull affection Iohn Golburne The Translator to the Christian Reader AMongst all the meanes prescribed by wisedome to attaine the perfection of true knowledge there is none good Reader in my poore conceit more necessarie for the ignorant next to the fountaine of life the word of God then the reading of Controuersies wherein the truth is debated the reasons on both sides deduced and laid open to the view and Readers iudgement For as by striking together of the steele flint the fire is out forced euen so by disputation and conference the truth is boulted out and decyded But because it is hard for a blinde man to iudge of colours and we being all blinde by nature and ignorant of God and goodnesse are of our selues vncapable of right iudgement in matters of faith for flesh and bloud cannot attaine vnto it neither can the naturall man discerne the things of God we must therefore vse the appointed meanes of our saluation namely hearing reading and meditating of Gods sacred word which is onely able to make vs wise vnto saluation and to enlighten the eyes of the simple So that by this touchstone and faithfull inuocation of God in the name and sole mediation of Christ Iesus for the direction of his holy spirit wee shal be enabled to know all things and to trye the true and pure Gold from the false and counterfeit and then comparing the sayings and assertions of both sides with the sincere vndeceiueable milke of Gods word we shal be likewise able to discerne the spirit of God from the spirit of Error and discerning shall perceiue the incomparable beautie of the one and the vgly deformitie of the other Which thing waighing with my selfe and finding in this Treatise both the deepnesse of Sathan and the inuincible force of truth which is the power of God vnto saluation of all true beleeuers I resolued at the speciall instance of a religious friend who had begun the Translation to attempt effect and finish the same which by diuine assistance I haue faithfully performed and here present it to thy view Read it with consideration consider thereof with iudgement and iudge with discretion so shalt thou finde not onely pleasure but much profit in matters discussed of greatest moment For which and all things else giue God the glory make vse for thine instruction and accept my poore endeuour whose desire was to do thee good Farewell Thine in the Lord I. G. The Preface containing the occasions of the Dispute following FOr that I doubt not but many persons filled with the commō brute of the conference should bee made at the house of my Lord the Duke de Montpensier betweene the Doctors of the one part and the Ministers of the other appointed for that purpose desire to know the truth and that others speake thereof diuersly according to the reports thereof made vnto them or their conceiued imaginations concerning the same Me seemeth that to satisfie the one and take from the other all occasion of lying or giuing credit to lies it should bee good to put briefly in writing all the matter as it passed and likewise to declare what was the motiue first occasion of the same My Lord the Duke of Montpensier who as each one knoweth is very zealous of his Religion and dearely loueth his children seeing that his daughter the Duchesse of Buillon was departed from the Komish Religion thenceforth to follow that of Iesus Christ and that without chilling shee still perseuered and more and more increased in the knowledge and feare of God in zeale godlinesse and all other good and commendable vertues his speech he had in the beginning with her and other meanes he had since assaied to reduce and call her backe from the way wherein shee was nought preuailing willed for a last remedie to attempt if he could to winne her by the meanes and remonstrance of a Doctor named Vigor whom he much esteemed And to the end that the said Lady should remaine more satisfied hauing called my Lord of Buillon her husband hee declared vnto him his minde and said hee was contented that the said remonstrance should bee made to his daughter in the presence of some Ministers as namely of Spina such others as she should please to choose to the ende that had they any thing to say against the doctrine of the saide Vigor they should alleadge it And if after they had conferred together they were not confuted by him and wholly vanquished that his daughter should then abide in her opinion without that hee or some others of his side would euer assay ought to diuert her My Lord de Buillon promised to accomplish his commaund therein and to shewe his obedience to him Shortly after hee imparted the
particular faithfull man should be aswell the pillar of truth as the vniuersal church Moreouer in making of particular reuelatiō of like waight with the iudgement of the church they plainly contradict the 4. article of their confession of faith where it is thus written We acknowledge those bookes to be canonicall and very certaine rules of our faith not so much by the common consent and agreement of the Church as by the testimonie and inward perswasion of the holy Ghost which maketh vs to discerne them frō other Ecclesiasticall bookes By the said article men may see how much more they attribute to themselues then to all the vniuersall church Which article they now contradict attributing as much to the one as to the other And also in their confessiō of faith lastly printed the said article hath been taken away as is seene by that which De Spina hath now brought hither imprinted at Geneua 1564. Whereby it appeareth that they be retracted as confessing that it behoueth to rest more vpon the common cōsent of the church thē vpon any particular mās iudgemēt Which thing is very reasonable seeing the holy Ghost is promised to the church vniuersall not to euery particular person Answere If men may esteeme the Ministers fantasticke although they haue the word of God more shall the Doctors bee holden for such in things they maintaine and defend without and contrarie to the word of God Touching the second point where the Doctors reproach the Ministers that they doo doubt as it seemeth by their answere of the assistance of the spirit of God to the church The answer is that that is not the doubt but to know which is the true Church And touching the third point whereof say the Doctors might bee inferred that particular persons could not erre The consequence is naught for as much as the spirite of God may sometimes depart from particular persons and in this case they may faile and erre as Dauid confesseth to haue happened to him To the fourth point the Ministers do answere that they no way contradict the alledged Article of their confession for that comparison is made in the answere of two reuelations of the holy Ghost the one made to the bodie and the other to the members which they maintaine to bee of like waight touching the certaintie thereof And in the confession mention is made of the reuelation of GOD his spirite which is the cause of the Churches consent which doth follow as the effect thereof Now so it is that the cause being preferred before his effect there is great reason that the reuelation of God his spirit compared with the consent of his Church be preferred vnto it as the cause to the effect which it produceth And touching the contrarietie which they pretend to happen in the confessions printed at diuers times and by diuers Printers they shall bee answered when it shall please them to debate the Articles particularly Obiection Where they set foorth the doubt they haue of the true Church as much men may say of pretended reuelations of God his spirit vnto particular persons Of whom likewise it may bee doubted whether they bee members of the Church For the other point where they denie that they contradict the fourth article of their confession it seemeth in shew that there is contradiction for as much as they compare the particular reuelatiō with the consent of the church as by their answere appeareth Also that which is alledged that reuelation is cause of consent to preferre it to that as the cause to the effect seemeth to serue to small purpose for it is as if one shuld say that the reuelation is to be preferred to the word of God and the holy scripture For very certaine it is that reuelation goeth before the word and scripture And as it appeareth in the text of the Confession as euery one may easily iudge the authors thereof speake of the certaintie and infallibilitie of two reuelations as holding themselues more assured of that they haue in their owne spirit then that which is of the iudgement of the Church And touching an other point where it is said that particular persons may sometimes faile when the holy Ghost doth leaue them By that wee may conclude that wee must not infallibly rest on the pretended inspirations of particular persons because we may doubt of them whether they be destitute of God his spirit or no which cannot be done of the Church Wherefore more sure it is to stay vpon the Church infallably gouerned by the holy Ghost then vpon priuate pretended inspirations And so do the Catholikes therein neuer following their priuate iudgement and therefore cannot be esteemed phantasticke But rather those which preferre their proper iudgement which they shrowde with the title of particular inspiration The Doctors require one text of the scripture by the which the holy Ghost is promised vnto euery one in particular as it is to the Church vniuersall to know and iudge and discerne which are the scriptures Answere Touching the first point As indeed they approue not all Churches to be true Churches which say they be so So do they not also approue them all faithful who boast themselues to be so For the second point the comparison of the Doctors is not proper which thus they haue made as who should say that reuelation is to bee preferred to the word of God c. Forasmuch as the word of God all the writings aswell of the Prophets as of the Apostles are as much of the reuelations of the Spirit of God that no more difference there is betweene the one and the other then is betweene Genus and Species And touching that which is added in this article that the reuelation precedeth the Scripture It behooueth to distinguish betweene the reuelations made to the Prophets before they put them in writing and those which haue beene made to them that read their writings for the vnderstanding of them Touching the first we confesse they goe before the Scripture And touching the second wee say that they follow the same For the third article the Ministers doo answere that it is easie to iudge whether the Spirit of God assist a particular person or whether it bee withdrawne by the things which he proposeth when they bee reduced to the word of God and censured by the rules which are there proposed vnto vs as is sayde Touching the demand it should bee too tedious a thing to alledge all the places where it is written That the Spirit of God is communicated to the particular members of the Church onely let them see in the 1. Cor. 2. where expresly it is said that the Spirite of God is communicated to the chosen to know and discerne the things which bee of God And in Esay 55. the Lord doth promise to shed his Spirite vpon the faithfull as water vpon the earth And in Ioel likewise the second and Ieremie 34. And the 1. Epistle of Saint Iohn
ea Thy truth ô Lord not mine nor of him or him but of all vs whom thou callest to communion terribly admonishing that wee haue not the truth priuate least wee be depriued thereof And touching the bookes of the old Testament which the Ministers will not receiue for Canonicall by the iudgement of their inward reuelation the Doctors doo shewe that before Saint Augustines time or at leastwise in his time in the Church vniuersall all the bookes which are contained in the holy Bible without distinction were holden and receiued for Canonicall as witnesseth the Councell of Carthage where S. Augustine was And also the Councell of Laodicia Now thus say the Doctors the Fathers which were present in these Councels if by inward inspiration wee must iudge of bookes they had it or at least they might perswade themselues to haue it more assuredly then many others The Ministers say that they iudge by their inward reuelation that they be not Canonicall The Doctors leaue it to iudgement which men ought rather beleeue whether the inspiration of the auncient Fathers receiued by the Church for so many hundred yeares vntill now or else the priuate and particular inspiration of the new Ministers They adde further that they submit themselues to proue that the auncient Fathers yea neare the time of the Apostles as Ireneus S. Ciprian Origen S. Ierome S. Augustine and others doo vse the testimonies of the bookes reiected by the Ministers yea for proofe of the doctrine against the heretikes And Saint Augustine himselfe in the 2. booke of Christian doctrine Cap. 2. dooth put all those bookes by name among the bookes Canonicall And Damascen likewise in his fourth booke de Orthodoxa fide Cap. 18. To know then whether a man haue the spirit of God to discerne and iudge of the bookes of the scripture he must bee reduced to the common consent and agreement of the Church for this is the ordinarie meanes left by God to that effect and the experience may bee made is an argument sufficient to conuince that the faithfull by inward inspiration cannot discerne the Canonicall bookes from the pretended Apocrypha Which might easily bee verified would the cause to come at this present some of the same pretended reformed Religion which haue not yet bene instructed in the diuision of the bookes vnto whom should one propose the bookes which the Ministers hold for Apocrypha they would in no wise distinguish them from other bookes of the holy Byble And vpon the whole they conclude that if one person hath the spirite of God c. vt supra Answere Touching the first Article the Ministers neuer said as may appeare by the reading of all the former answeres that their religion is founded on their particular reuelations but vpon the word of God as is proposed in the writings of the Prophets and Apostles Of the truth whereof they haue said to be principally assured by the â—estimoniâ— and reuelation of the holy spirit They also say that faith is not the truth to speake properly but the perswasion of the truth which in the scripture â—s â—aught vs. Moreouer that this faith is not of our owne getting but a pure giâ—t of God adding that the Ministers to make them lawfullâ— ought to bee sent not from the pretended Pastors which haue not but the â—yâ—le and onely name of Pastors but ought to be sent from God a it appeareth in Ieremy where this marke is proposed to knowe and marke a false Pastor or Shepheard when hee thrusteth in himselfe or is sent of an other then of God Touching the article following they adde that the true marke whereby one may certainly iudge of the reuelation is rather the word of God then the consent of many for as much as it oft times happeneth that the multitude in the Church declining from the word doo altogether erre as in the time of Micheas the time of Iesus Christ and afterward also of Constance the Emperour Concerning the Prophets which doo follow theyâ— owne spirite as bee those which leaue the word of God and depend vppon the commaundements and traditions of men or on the vanitie of their owne sence there is no doubt but they are false Prophets and that such persons are to bee shunned and reiected But great difference must bee put betweene the reuelations and testimonies of the spirit of God and the vaine imaginations of the hearts of men Touching that which the Doctors haue set foorth that heretikes as Anabaptists and others doo vse for confirmation of their errors the texts of scripture alledged by the Ministers It may so bee for as much as the scripture beeing common may bee produced and alledged of eueâ—ie one And yet men must not stay vpon that which is alledged but weigh and examine how and to what end and purpose it is alledged and in so dooing men shall knowe the difference betweene the Ministers and heretikes And concerning that produced of Brentius and Bucer namely wherein they affirmed that by the onely tradition of the Church the Canonicall bookes may be discerned from the Apocrypha This it seemeth cannot well serue the Doctors seeing they maintaine all the bookes of the Bible to bee Canonicall and neuerthelesse by that they haue said of Brentius and Bucer it appeareth that the one and the other following the tradition as they say put a distinction therein calling the one Canonicall and the other Apocrypha Touching the Article following wherein the Doctors alledge certaine textes of the auntient Fathers to take away the difference betweene the bookes Canonicall and Apocrypha The Ministers do answer that as they haue alledged some to proue the same so can they also for their part alledge some to that purpose as Saint Ierome in his Prologue called Galeatus and in an other which beginneth Frater Ambrosius vnto whom writing the summe of euery booke of the Bible hee mentioneth those onely which the Ministers call Canonicall They may alledge also two or three Catalogues recyted in Eusebius which they receiue not for Canonicall bookes but those which the Ministers themselues approue Moreouer the Councell of Laodicia which the Doctors haue alledged is for the Ministers for as much as it comprehendeth not the bookes in question And touching the experience they answere that it is a question of fact and that it may be alledged rather against the Doctors then the Ministers And finally that they loose not more time in often repeating of one selfe-same thing but hasten to conferre of the points of the confession which the Doctors will debate The Ministers do shewe that the 24. bookes of the old Testament which are in the Canon of the Hebrewes with all the bookes of the new Testament be on both sides approued Canonicall And they are wholly sufficient to decide all the points of their confession all that in generall which appertaineth to true religion And by meanes thereof they haue no cause at all to drawe backe from the Conference for the
conioyned they be sometimes by some occasion seperated and remoued the one from the other as touching their bodies yet for all that do they not leaue to be one flesh and one body by meanes of the societie and matrimoniall familiaritie which is betweene them In like case albeit that Iesus Christ with whom wee are conioyned and vnited by the faith and trust which wee haue in him and his promises bee as touching his bodie resident in heauen wee yet abiding vppon the earth and that by meanes thereof there is great distance and space betweene him and vs as touching his bodie that neuerthelesse hindereth vs not to bee flesh of his flesh and bones of his bones that hee is not our head and wee his members that hee is not our husband and wee his spowse that wee bee not of one selfe same body that wee bee not engrafted into him that wee be not cloathed with him that wee abide not in him as the boughes and buddes in the Vine And there is neither distance of times nor places whatsoeuer it be there is no difference of times which can hinder such a coniunction and that the faithfull eate truly his flesh and his bloud For as the auncient Fathers albeit they were two or three thousand yeares before Iesus Christ dyed yet left they not to communicate in his flesh crucified and to eate the same spirituall meate which we eate and to drinke the same spirituall drinke which wee drinke The faithfull also which are come twelue or fifteene hundred yeares after leaue not what place soeuer they be in to participate as did the Fathers in the same meate and in the same drinke which they haue done And no other difference there is betweene the eating of the Fathers which were before the comming of Iesus Christ and of them that haue followed him but the reason of more or lesse that is to say that there is in the one more ample and expresse declaration of the good will of God towards vs then in the other Whence must be concluded that from the beginning of the world vnto the end there neuer was nor shall be other coniunction betweene our Lord Iesus Christ and his Church then spirituall that is to fay wrought by the spirit of God For euen as there is but one faith in the Fathers and in vs which respecteth alwayes on the one part and the other our Lord Iesus Christ so are we not also otherwise conioyned with him then they haue bene As then it is so that the Fathers haue had no other societie nor communion then spirituall It followeth thereof that we also are not nor can be otherwise then spiritually cōioyned with him Neuerthelesse it is not said that wee and the Fathers are not flesh of his flesh and bones of his bones and that all together doo not partake as well in his humanitie as in his diuinitie But that which wee say is that all this participation which wee haue in him is by the operation vertue of the holy Ghost which thing Christ Iesus in S. Iohn speaking of the meane of this coniunction teacheth clearly when he saith The things which I speake vnto you are spirit and life And S. Paul also when hee saith Our fathers did eate the same spirituall meate and dranke the same spirituall drinke Now when wee speake of this spirituall eating common to vs and to the Fathers it must not therfore be thought that we reiect the holy Supper of the Lord or any way thinke that the same vse of bread and wine is superfluous no more then the vse of the water in Baptisme For our Lord knowing the blockishnesse of our vnderstandings and the infirmitie and weakenesse of our hearts and through the pittie he hath of vs willing to helpe and remedie the same hath not contented to haue left vs the ministerie of his word to assure vs of the participation which we haue in his flesh in his bloud and in all the good things thereon depending but hath also willed to adde therevnto the signes of bread and wine which he hath as seales to his word to seale in our hearts by the vse of the same the faith we haue of the foresaid coniunction by his word So that it sufficed him not to haue contracted a couenant with Abraham by the word and promise which he made vnto him but added moreouer therevnto the signe of Circumcision as a seale for more ample confirmation and assurance of the said couenant To the end then that each one may vnderstand what is the Supper of the Lord and what the Ministers do thereof beleeue and teach it is meete to consider and acknowledge in the same three things First the ordinance of the Lord contained in his word and declared by his Ministerie according to his commaundement by which this holy cerimony hath bene ordained and established in the Church for the edification and entertaining of the members thereof which thing must bee diligently obserued to haue it in that honour and reuerence as appertaineth and not to place it in the ranke of other cerimonies which haue no foundation nor reason to authorise them but the onely will and tradition of men Neuerthelesse heed must be taken that by the institution and ordinance whereof we make mention we vnderstand not a certaine pronuntiation of words or any vertue which is hidden in the same as do the Priests of the Romane Church who by ignorance and superstitious opinion which they haue thinke to haue consecrated and transubstantiated the bread and wine in the Masse by the vertue of fiue words Hoc est enim Corpus meum For this is my body breathed and pronounced ouer the Elements Wherein they are greatly deceiued and abused for as much as the word which is the formall cause of the Sacrament is not a word simply said and vttered but a declaration of the institution and ordinance of God made by the Minister according to his commaundement and a preaching of the death of Iesus Christ and of the fruite thereof by which the hearts of the hearers are lifted vp vnto the contemplation and meditation of his benefite and their faith stirred vp and inflamed in his loue and where the same shall not thus be done it must not be thought that the Elements be Sacraments As S. Augustine in the 80. Tract vpon Saint Iohn in these termes teacheth Whence commeth this vertue to the water that in touching the body it washeth the heart sauing that it is done by the word not because it is pronounced but because it is beleeued This word is the word of the faith which wee preach This saith the Apostle to wit If we confesse with our mouth that Iesus is the Lord and beleeue in our heart that God raised him from the dead wee shall be saued And continuing his speech hee addeth in the end these proper words to wit This word of faith which wee preach is that doubtlesse by which baptisme is consecrated
Churches if it were not presently met with knowing also that it was a false reproach which they had put vpon the Ministers began to excuse them assuring the King and the Queene that the Ministers would alwaies be readie to conferre with the Doctors and to defend by the scripture the confession of their Churches in what place soeuer and before such persons as they would it should bee So that they were permitted to pray vnto God as they had required in the beginning of their conference and that they should there obserue the order and meanes which they had proposed or other better as they should thinke good to the end to auoyd all wranglings and the confusion of voyce and cries as is ordinarily seene in schooles and disputes of Sophisters and contentious persons My Lord of Neuers hauing vnderstood these words of my Lord the Admirall found them verie reasonable and perswaded as it is certaine first by the spirit of God and afterwards by a haughtinesse and generositie of heart which thrust him forward with a will to vnderstand the truth of each thing sollicited the King and Queene that by theyr commission and vnder their authoritie the said Conference might bee established And so wrought he that hee obtained of their Maiesties what hee demaunded By meanes whereof hauing aduertised my Lord the Admirall of theyr pleasures they consulted together of the order should bee held in the same conference And resolued in the end that my Lord De Neuers and my Lord the Duke of Buillon should bee the chiefe Iudges therein and that of the one side and the other should some Gentlemen be present to bee witnesses and beholders of whatsoeuer should bee done in the same And further that there should be two Notaries of both sides of the litle fort at Paris which should put in writing and signe whatsoeuer should be alleadged and proposed by the parties These conditions thus conceiued and agreed of among the said Lords were also accepted by the Doctors Vigor and De Sanctes of the one partie and by the Ministers De Spina Sureau of the other partie Who began to assemble themselues together on Tuesday the ninth of Iuly 1566. in the house of my said Lord of Neuers where in his presence and of other Lords which were with him after prayers made by the Ministers in the absence of the Doctors who because they would not be present had withdrawn themselues apart Doctor Vigor spake and began by protestation That the cause why hee and his companion were entred into Conference with the Ministers was not to be instructed in any point of Religion nor any way to withstand the Constitutions of the Councels and chiefly that of Trent by which they are forbidden to dispute with heretikes And that they for their part were wholly resolued to abide in the faith of the Romish Church but that at the request and pursuite of the Lord de Montpensier who for the reducing of his daughter Madame de Buillon had required the said Conference they were come thither to the end to satisfie him declare the holy zeale they haue to seeke and bring backe to the flocke those which are thence departed Wherevpon their speeches ended the Ministers speaking protested likewise that that which had led theÌ„ to conference with the Doctors was not because they doubted of any article conteined in their confession which they knew to bee drawne froÌ„ the pure word of God but that it was to maintaine the same against the Sophistries and cauillations of theÌ„ which would impugne it and to retaine Madame de Buillon in the good and holy institution which shee had receiued by the grace which God had giuen her Thus the protestations on both sides made the Ministers supposed that the Doctors theÌ„ following the intention of my Lord de Montpensier and the desire of Madame de Buillon should haue begunne the Conference by the Dispute of two points the Supper and the Masse But as they that will besiege and batter a Towne begin a farre off to make their Trenches and approaches to prepare themselues to the deciding and conference of the said two points they began to lay their foundation by the authoritie of the Church wherevpon they would establish the certaintie of the Articles of faith and generally of all the holy Scripture And therefore the demaunds and objections were proposed by the Doctors And the answeres giuen by the Ministers De Sainctes beginning and De Spina answering as followeth Actes of the Dispute and Conference holden at Paris Question WHerevpon doo you ground your Religion Answere Vpon the word of God Question What do you vnderstand by the word of God Answere The writings of the Prophets and Apostles Question Doo you receiue for their writings all the bookes of the Bible as well of the olde as the new Testament attributing vnto all one like authoritie Answere No but following antiquitie wee distinguish betweene the Canonicall bookes and the Apocripha calling those Canonicall vpon whose doctrine the faith and all Christian religion is builded And those Apocripha which haue not such authoritie that wee may build or establish vpon them any Article of faith but are proper to teach and well gouerne the estate of life and manners of Christians by reason of the goodly and notable sentences which are comprised in them Question By what meanes doo you know that the one is Canonicall the other Apocripha Answere By the spirit of God which is a spirit of discretion and enlightneth all those vnto whom it is communicated to make them capable to bee able to iudge and discerne things spirituall and to know and apprehend the truth when to them it is proposed by the witnesse and assurance which thereof it giueth them in their hearts And as wee discerne the light from darkenesse by the facultie of seeing which is in the eye euen so may wee easily seperate and acknowledge the truth from vntruth and from all things in generall which may be false absurd doubtfull or indifferent when as we are furnished with the spirit of God and guided by the light which it lightneth in our hearts Question Yea but some man may boast to haue the spirit of God which hath it not And we see by Histories that all heretikes haue euer thought to haue the truth on their side and endeuoured to authorise their doctrine by inward â—euelations which they feigne to haue receiued of Gods spirit Whereby it may appeare what daunger there should bee to referre the censure of a booke or doctrine to the witnesse of the spirit of God which one particular man shal imagine or feigne to haue receiued in his heart Answere Very easie it is to auoyd such daunger in following the counsell which Saint Iohn doth giue vs in his first Catholike Epistle not to beleeue indifferently all spirits but to proue and diligently to examine them before wee receiue or approue what they propose And the triall to be made in
such a case is first to regard the ende wherevnto a doctrine tendeth which shall be declared vnto vs or a booke that shall be presented vnto vs For if it tend to establish and aduance the glory of God it is true as Iesus Christ saieth in S. Iohn That he which seeketh the glory of God is truth and there is no vnrighteousnesse in him Afterwards we must consider whether being reduced to the proportion and the analogie of faith as saith S. Paul it well agreeth and accordeth with the principles and foundations of Religion Obiection All say and may say as much thereof and therefore this reason is no sufficient argument as I conceiue by effect and other proofes how I ought to stay my selfe thereupon Moreouer this answer passeth the limits of the proposition For it presupposeth the Scripture to be the knowne foundation of Religion And the proposition was to know the reason which should assure me that the Scripture was of God and that it behooueth to distinguish betweene the Bookes thereof Answere It is easie to iudge if the end of the doctrine proposed tendeth to establish and aduance the honour and glorie of God As if men were exhorted thereby to withdraw wholly their trust from creatures wholly to settle and repose themselues in God to resort to him in all their necessities and to depend vpon his prouidence in all their affaires to praise and thanke him for all the goodnes they haue This presupposed no man could doubt that the doctrine which tendeth to such an end should not be good and receiuable And to that which hath bene proposed that the former Answere was out of the limits of the first proposition it seemeth not for that the first thing proposed was What is the foundation of our Religion Wherunto it was answered That it is the writings of the Prophets and Apostles Obiection This answer is common to the Lutherans and Anabaptists yea also to the Deistes which say more then all others that they seeke the glorie of God and all that which in the answere is written And generally each man that should vse the like saying should not cease to erre in all the Articles of the Creed the first excepted But to returne to the point without so much wandering it seemeth to vs not lawfull to vse the foundation of the Scripture before it bee notorious and certaine that it is the holy Scripture and that there is difference amongst the bookes thereof And before it bee known that I haue particular inspiration of the holy Ghost and that such a particular inspiration of the holy Ghost be a sufficient foundation of Religion Answere The Deistes and other hereâ—iques cannot bee holpen by the foresayd answere for confirmation of their errors Forasmuch as the Desties denying Jesus Christ cannot glorifie God seeing that to glorifie the Father it behooueth first to know and to glorifie the Sonne no more also other heretiques For that not knowing the trueth nor consequently Iesus Christ which is the way the life and the trueth they cannot know nor glorifie God And touching that obiected that the answere was from the purpose that may be iudged by the conference of the demand and answere And for the latter point of the obiection wherein it is sayde that the reuelation which each particular man sayth hee hath of the Spirite of God is to him the foundation of Religion that was not answered But that the foundation of all true Religion is the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles Of the trueth of which all the Church in generall and the members thereof in particular are assured by the witnesâ—e and inward reuelation of the Spirit of God Obiection Then it behooued to adde whatsoeuer is heere sayde to the other answere before it were good and it seemeth that the answere doeth containe as it were a mockerie For it is certaine that when all trueth is in the doctrine of a man that man is no more euill nor an heretique But wee search out the beginning of trueth what it shou'd bee And touching the reply which denieth that the particular reuelation is the foundation of Religion There is no great difference For if the particular reuelation bee a sufficient foundation for euery one to know what is of the Apostles and Prophets that particular reuelation by consequence is the foundation of Religion For that is the foundation of knowledge whereupon euery particular man knoweth and sayeth his Religion is founded Answere The answeres haue bene made according as the demaundes haue beene propounded and it will not appeare by the reading of them that they are willing to mocke For in such a Conference as this where the matter is to seeke out the honour and glory of God Mockerie should bee ioyned with impietie And as touching reuelation that it is equall to the Scripture which is the foundation of Religon wee denie it and say they bee things different although they be conioyned together and that they doo follow the one the other euen as appeareth by that which is written in Esay Behold my couenant with them sayth the Lord my Spirit that is in thee and my wordes which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seede And that which followeth From whence a man may iudge the distinction which the Prophet putteth between the reuelation of the holy Ghost and the word Obiection For conclusion of this Conference I leaue each man to iudge of the agreement of the answerers and obiections And for that which is alledged of the vnion of the word and of the holy Ghost out of the text of Esay they are things from the purpose and new matter And we must not compare the reuelation of euery particular person whereof was the question vnto that of the Prophet Esay who had other proofes that the Spiâ—â—t spake by him and had oft times made demonstration thereof And of all that aboue said I leaue the iudgement to euery Christian Answere We leaue also the iudgement of what hath beene spoken of the one part and the other to the hearers and readers And for the passage of Esay produced the question is not of the reuelation of the Prophet nor of the spirit communicated vnto him but of the spirit and the words which God promised to all his people with whom he made his couenant And as touching the other pretended proofes which the Prophet had of his vocation we make no doubt thereof But we say that the principall and most assured was that which he had by the testimony of God his Spirit as appeareth by the sixt Chapter of his Prophecie Obiection Be it so that by the person of Esay be spake to his people it followeth not that he spake not to Esay first And I allow that he promised indeed his spirit to his people that is to say to his Church vniuersal Not that he wil that euery one yea being in this Church
may brag and vsurpe to haue this spirit particularly promised vnto him And as touching the particular inspiration of Esay it was not founded on his onely fancie and presumption but on the assurance that God gaue him by a worke supernaturall as is said in the 6. Chapter And further it was not yet sufficiently founded to bee beleeued as hauing inspiration had he not shewed the same by other effects and by other Prophesies already come to passe As it behooueth euery Prophet should doo before he were beleeued But leauing all those things as farre fetched and from the first proposition I referre the iudgement as before Answere There is not one of the Church if he be a ture member therof vnto whom the spirit of God is not communicated As S. Paul and S. Iohn in his first Catholique Epistle teacheth And as touching the pretended presumption there is great difference betweene the presumption and imaginations of the spirit of man which is but darkenesse and of it selfe knoweth nothing of the thing of God and the reuelations of the holy Ghost which are certaine and assured And where it is said that the answeres are farre off from the first proposition if it be so the demaâ—nds are so also Obiection The conclusion is if each one ought to be beleeued in saying hee hath a particular reuelation of the holy Ghost without otherwise shewing that they are holy Scriptures and that there is difference amongst them let euery one iudge if the demands and answeres be pertinent to this difficultie or no. And forasmuch as some of the newe doctrine doo shew no proofe more then others of their particular inspirations whether the one ought to be more beleeued then the other concerning the same Answere By the former answeres it hath beene declared how the reuelations pretended by particular persons ought to be examined by the meanes by which men may iudge whether they be of the spirit of God or no. Then spake Doctor Vigor saying that in the discourse aforesaid he had vnderstood many sayings contained in the answers of the Minister which were against the word of God as when he said that it behooueth first to honour the Sonne before the father Which the said Vigor reproouing the said Spyna maintained that thing to bee true affirming such proposition to be grounded and contained in the holy Scripture as in the Gospel and first Catholique Epistle of S. Iohn Vnto which Vigor replyed that in the said places the word First is not found Neuertheles least he fall on that which hath beene put forth and proposed in the beginning of the conference he wil not now enter into the confutation of that saying reseruing it to the end of all the conferences Answere The said Spyna required that Vigor should quote the places of the Scripture which hee pretended to bee contrarie to that was contained in his answere And where it is said that it first behoueth to glorifie the Sonne before the Father according as it is written in the places aboue noted for confirmation of his saying hee proposeth this reason founded on the Scripture We cannot know the Father if we haue not knowne the Sonne Wee cannot glorifie the Father if we haue not knowne him Therefore it followeth that the knowledge and glory of the Sonne is a degree to come to the knowledge and glory of the father which being referred by the said Vigor to be more amply handled in the end and conclusion of all the conference the said Spyna is so contented Obiection The sayd Vigor without wading further in this dispute obiecteth that by the same reason alledged by the said De Spyna It followeth that it first behooueth to honour the Father before the Sonne for by the Father wee come to the knowledge of the Sonne as it appeareth by that which our Lord sayd to Saint Peter Caro sanguis non reuelauit tibi sed pater meus qui in Coelis est Flesh and blood hath not reuealed this vnto thee but my Father which is in the heauens Where it is manifest that the heanenly Father did reueale to Saint Peter that our Lord was the Sonne of the liuing God Whereupon the sayd Vigor doeth thus argue If the reason of the sayd De Spyna bee good by the Father wee know the Sonne it behooueth then to honour the Father before the Sonne Answere To follow the order of the knowledge we may haue of Iesus Christ and of his Father proposed vnto vs in S. Iohn It behooueth to beginne by the Sonne and from the Sonne to come to the Father For Saint Phillip hauing once required that hee would shew vnto him and his other companions his Father hee said vnto him Phillip hee that hath seene me he hath seene my Father To teach them that the meane to come to the knowledge of the Father is the precedent knowledge of the Sonne which may bee also confirmed by that which is else where written where Iesus Christ saieth That no man knoweth the Father but the Sonne onely and hee to whom the Sonne will reueale him And to answere the authoritie of Saint Matthew alledged by the sayd Vigor the sayd De Spyna sayeth that in the text by him produced there is no mention made of the knowledge of the Father nor of the meane to come vnto it But onely of the reuelation made by the grace of GOD and his holy Spirite vnto Saint Peter and his other fellowes to know IESVS CHRIST and the Father in him Whereupon Vigor sayde hee referred himselfe to the hearer and reader that his obiection is not answere dreseruing for another Conference to treat more amply of that point if hee will maintaine it least hee should fall vpon that which hath beene formerly proposed whereunto the sayd De Spyna answered that hee so agreed The sayde Vigor vpon an answere made by the sayde De Spina where hee putteth difference betweene the certaine reuelation made by the Lord to a particular person and the holy Scripture addeth that hee is abashed of the same answere considering that men beleeue not the holy Scripture But in that they are acertained that the Lord is authour thereof who cannot lye Then likewise that if a particular man haue assurance that the reuelation is made vnto him by the Lorde or else that one is assured of the reuelation made to another as much is hee bound to giue faith to the reuelation as to the Scripture The which saying also hee will not as hee may handle and declare at large but come presently to the first question which is not yet resolued And prayeth the sayd De Spina to set forward the same Answere Where the sayde Vigor is abashed that the sayde De Spina should say in one of his answeres That the reuelation of the Lord and the word were things different the same is befalne him for not well conceiuing the sence of the saying For De Spina will not put difference touching the certainty
because men do alledge propose many things to the contrary To the end therefore that God and his Angels bee maintained true in their words it must not be doubted but God can much more easily change and alter his creatures and all their qualities then a Potter can play with his clay and forme at his pleasure some vessell thereof Moreouer there is daunger that if we limit Gods power towards his creatures wee fall to denie him his Lordship and dominion ouer them For no other thing is it to be Lord of a creature then to haue power to change alter and giue it such a nature and qualitie best pleasing to him as hauing the same in his owne power And therefore God in Ieremy to shewe that hee had power to destroy and ruinate or to maintaine Ierusalem as seemed him good saith I am the Lord of all flesh is there any thing too hard for me Therefore the Doctors do conclude that there is daunger if this question bee maintained as impossible to God that each one therein will dare as much alledging the same examples which the Ministers do to exempt from the power of God euery thing shall displease him And when men shall produce vnto him such things out of the scripture he may interpret the scripture in an other sence saying that such a thing shall be impossible to God by the naturall sence of the words of the scripture Euen as the Ministers doo change and alter the scripture which saith that the body of Iesus Christ is in two places To wit the word of the Supper compared with that of the Ascention and say that that of the Supper ought not to bee vnderstood litterally for that one body should be in two places is impossible to God So say the Doctors that each one wil corrupt the litterall sence of the scriptures saying that the thing is impossible vnto God And therefore must the scriptures be otherwise vnderstood And notwithstanding it may bee because it displeaseth him and yet will hee bring forth the selfe-same reasons and allegations as do the Ministers to shewe that all things are not possible to God The Doctors do againe conclude that it is better to maintaine the scripture in the truth thereof albeit it propose in our iudgements incomprehensible and impossible things then to open a gap for euery one to depraue the word of God to raunge and subiect it to his will and iudgement vnder shadow of saying that it is impossible to God and alledging for the same some examples They will not omit that the Ministers who haue often protested to relye vpon the pure word of God do alledge only auncient Doctors against the power of God flying for aide to them against Gods expresse word which importeth that generally without exception there is nothing impossible to him Answere The Minister answere that the Doctors proue not their consequence and that they leaue it for some distrust they haue as is likely that they are not able to proue it They mentiō but the antecedent of their said consequence to the confession whereof it is not possible for them to lead the Ministers by their reasons and authorities alledged to weaken their said consequence for as much as of one particular they inferre a generall which is contrary to the rules of Logicke And where they say that the authorities alledged by the Ministers nothing serue to reproue their consequence and to shew that God leaueth not to be almightie although he cannot do any thing which doth derogate to his nature they referre themserues therein to the said auncient authors which for the same end and reasons as the Ministers doo alledge and propose the aboue said exceptions Where they pretend that the authorities and sentences alledged out of the auncient Fathers do nought appertaine to the present question for as much as they denie that they should be vnderstood of other things but those only which do containe in themselues contradiction The Ministers do answere that so also doth that which they propose of a body that at on selfe instant it may be in diuers places For as much is it as if they should say that a body is and is not at one selfe-same time and that a body is one and is not one Also that a creature is incircumscriptible and not inclosed within certaine limits which happening it should no more be a creature but God As may bee gathered of that which S. Basil writeth in his booke of the holy Ghost Chapter 22. saying thus The Angell that appeared to Cornelius was not in the same place where Phillip was And he that spake to Zacharie from the Aultar filled not whiles hee spake vnto him his seate and place in heauen But the holy Ghost is in Habacuck and Daniel in Babylon and in Ezeehiel vpon the floud of Chobar for the spirit of God doth fill the earth And the Prophet writing thereof saith Where shall I hide me from thy spirit or whither shall I flye from thy presence Didymus in his booke of the holy Ghost confirming that aboue said saith thus Were the spirit of God a creature his substance should he haue circumscript and limitted as haue all things made and created As then so it is that the spirit of God doth fill the world and is not circumscript nor in any place limitted therof it followeth that he is God Vigilius in the disputation hee wrote betweene Sabellius Photius Arrius and Athanasius vnder the person of Athanasius thus writeth Thereby may it chiefly appeare that the spirit of God is God that he is euerie where and is not contained in any one place as the Prophet writeth Whither shall I flye to hide me from thy spirit Of these places may we conclude that if a body bee not circumscript finished and closed in certaine limits it is not a creature which ought to bee vnderstood not onely of other bodies but of that also of Iesus Christ himselfe as appeareth by that which Theodoret writeth in his second Dialogue where hee thus saith Then is the body of our Lord risen exempted from all corruption impassible and immortall adorned with diuine glory adored and worshipped of the heauenly powers Neuerthelesse albeit it be in such sort qualified yet ceaseth it not therefore to be circumscript as it was before it was glorified whereof it followeth that being a true body and a creature it cannot be in diuers places at one instance Whereas they alledge that the foresaid examples do nothing pertaine to the question proposed for as much as in it the question is onely to know whether God can chaunge the qualities in a substance the substance remaining The Ministers do denie it because in the question there is mentiō of a body which cannot be without hs measure Now the measures and demensions are not as qualities and accidents which may happen to a body and depart from it without corrupting thereof which is the nature and condition of accidents but are
it was impossible to God to make one bodie to be in two places Concerning this Article which beginneth Touching that which they say that the authorities c. The Doctors obiect that the auncient Fathers neuer thought to make exception of any thing which is not subiect to the power of God For as it is manifest hee that saith all excepteth nothing Therefore when the Scripture saith that God is almightie it giueth sufficiently to vnderstand that there is no exception And to giue exception therein should be to contradict to many places of the word of God and to blaspheme against his power But well say the Doctors that the Fathers haue interpreted the Omnipoteucie of God not to comprehend that which toucheth the perfection of his nature but that only which concerneth the Creatures So that there were not on their part too apparant contradiction and repugnancie Now the present question importeth not that there is contradiction for a bodie to be a bodie and in diuers places at one selfe-same instant For concerning the essence of bodies in speaking of a bodie hauing it dimensions as speake the Philosophers De praedicamento quantitatis Certaine it is that the dimensions are of the essence of a bodie but to be circumscript and inclosed in a place that is an accident Which thing is shewed by Philosophie it selfe For the most high heauen according to all is a bodie and neuerthelesse is it not in place according to it all Therefore is it not an essentiall thing for a bodie to be enclosed in one place And to speake of the present matter the Ministers should be very much troubled to prooue that the bodie of Iesus Christ is in one place in heauen seeing it is written in the 4. Chapter to the Ephesians he is mounted aboue all the heauens out of which there is no place as they speak of places in regard of bodies according to nature And were it so that it should be essential to a body to be in one place according to the rule which the Ministers deliuer an other blasphemy would follow against the Omniporencie of God that God could not make a body and place the same aboue all heauens And to speake more vniuersally that God could not make a bodie without place and roomth equall to it greatnes Touching the Allegations proposed by the Ministers of certaine auncient Authors The Doctors do obiect that the said Allegations are against themselues For as much as to be inclosed in a place doth not depend of the essence of a bodie nor of it measures as appeareth by the authorities produced wherein there is mentiō made of Angels which haue not bodies It is not therefore an essentiall reason for the demensions of a body to be contained in a place And all this furniture of authorities maketh nothing to the purpose For they tend but to shewe that the naturall proprietie of creatures is different from the diuine nature as S. Basil saith expresly in the place by the Ministers alledged And S. Ambrose in his first booke of the holy Ghost Cap. 7. where the same Authors doo declare that God by his nature may be euery where and the creatures by their natures not so But the said Authors pretend not that God by his Omnipotencie cannot make one body to be in diuers places For the same Authors or their like when they come to speak of the power of God in the holy Sacrament they affirme that the bodie of Iesus Christ is in heauen and in the holy Sacrament And affirme that the Angels and spirits of the blessed may by the same power be in many places As the Doctors will shew in their resolution Where the Ministers say that a body must be circumscript without place according to the essentiall proprietie that hath bene formerly shewed to be false And the Ministers do confound the name of body which sometimes doth signifie substance sometimes quantitie hauing it dimensions breadth length and deepnesse which dimensions be essentiall in a body taking the body for a kinde of quantitie and not in a substantiall body for it is an accident Now certaine it is that God can seperate the accidents from a body and make a substance without accidents otherwise there would follow an other blasphemie that God could not seperate the accident from a subiect and substance And where the Ministers say that a stone by a violent mouing may bee cast on high that is no answere to the question For the Doctors doo demaund for as much as it is essentiall and naturall to a massy and terrestriall body in regard of the massinesse and waight thereof tending downeward whether God by his onely power contrary to the naturall proprietie of a massy and waightie body cannot hold and hang it vp on high And as touching the euasion which the Ministers make from a very strong and mightie argument against their doctrine that two bodies may be in one place by the proofe that is made taken from the scripture not onely to proue that God can cause two bodies to be in one place but euen that he hath done it serueth nothing to couer their error in saying that it is not said in S. Iohn that our Lord did enter by the shut doores but that he was found standing in the midst of them where the said Ministers haue concealed and omitted this verbe venit and do stay onely vpon the verbe stetit For the expresse text in S. Iohn cap. 21. 19. saieth That the doores being shut Iesus came into the place where the Disciples were assembled and was there in the middest of them They demaund of them for as much as the scripture saith that he came thither the doores beeing shut and that hee was found in the middest of them whether hee were found in the middest of them and in the said place without entring thereinto or whether hee there entered for as much as the text saith that the doores were shut when he came How they will proue by the scripture that he entred if not by the shut doores For a much greater myracle should it be to be found in the middest of his Disciples without being entred into the place where they were Too light is that shift to say it is not written that he entred For S. Augustine in his booke De agone Christiano cap. 24. saieth thus Nec nos moueat quod clausis hostijs subitò eum apparuisse Dicipulis scriptum est vt propterea negemus illud fuisse corpus humanum quia contra naturam huius corporis videmus illudper clausa hostia intrare Omnia enim possibilia sunt Deo Nam ambulare super aquas contra naturam huius corporis esse manifestum est tamen non solum ipse Dominus ante passionem ambulauit sed etiam Petrum ambulare fecit Let it not moue vs because it is written that the doores being shut he suddenly appeared to his Disciples that we therefore denie that body to
body Moreouer in numbring of the errors sometimes coÌ„demned by the facultie of Paris it is expresly said That the heauen by them called Empyreum is the place of Angels of blessed spirits and glorified humane bodies Where the Doctors pretend that of the doctrine which the Ministers maintaine that a body cannot be without place nor in many places at one instant may be inferred that they blaspheme the omnipotencie of God The Ministers contrariwise say that the Doctors blaspheme his Maiestie and diminish the same in attributing to the creature that which appertaineth to him alone to wit to be vncircumscript As it appeareth by that which Didimus saith in his booke of the holy Ghost where he proueth that the holy Ghost is God not a creature because he is incircumscript and that al creatures necessarily be circumscript and limited As much thereof also say S. Basil and Vigilius and the Mr. of the sentences in his first booke Where they confesse that the Angels and blessed spirits be circumscript although they be not corporall This reason is against themselues and proper to proue what the Ministers haue here aboue maintained of bodies to wit that it cannot be but that they be circumscript in some place For by an argument froÌ„ the lesse to the more If the Angels which want dimension and measure by their own confession in as much as they be creatures be necessarily circumscript by a more strong reason the bodies of men which be creatures and measured shall be so likewise And where they adde that the auncient Fathers haue not said that one body by the power of God could not be in diuers places That is contrary to the saying of S. Augustine in his 30. tract vpon S. Iohn which is recited De consec distinct 2. C. Prima quideÌ„ Where speaking of the body of Iesus Christ he saith namely It behooueth that the body of our Lord wherin he rose again be in one place teaching therby that at one selfe-same time it cannot be in diuers places And touching the reason they adde taken froÌ„ the Sacrament to proue their assertioÌ„ the Ministers say that the fathers neuer vnderstood nor said that the body of Iesus Christ was in heauen and in the Sacrament in one selfe same sort maner nor do they teach that he was otherwise then Sacramentally in the Sacrament And wheras in their resolutioÌ„ they pretend to proue that the Angels may at one self instant be in diuers places when the Ministers shall haue vnderstood their reasons then they wil answere therevnto That which they say of a body it being dispoiled of it dimensions ceaseth not to be a body notwithstanding is a very absurd thing For did it happen that a corporal substance were wholly dispoiled of it dimensions it should no more be a body but an incorporeall substance of like nature as the Angels spirits And although God by his power can seperate the dimensioÌ„s of a substance without corrupting it yet can it not be that they be seperated froÌ„ a body without the corruptioÌ„ of the same Because the quantitie dimensions are accidents of the substance but not of the body which cannot subsist without them in as much as they be of it proper essence Whereas the Doctors say afterwards in their obiection that the waight in a body is a thing essentiall The Ministers do deny it And the reason is that were it of the essence of a bodie and the same wanting the bodie should cease to bee Neuerthelesse we see that the glorified bodie of Iesus Christ wherevnto the bodies of all the elect shall be like after the resurrection doth not leaue to be subsist although it be now exempted from all waight And as touching their alledged very strong and mightie argument That if two bodies may be in one selfe place togither one body at one instant may be also in diuers places The Ministers not graunting the antecedent vnder correction say that the consequence is not good and that the argument is very weake Adding therto that the Doctors haue nor prooued and neuer can prooue by the scriptures nor by any authoritie of the auncient Fathers nor by any sufficient reason that which they propose in their antecedent or the consequent which they inferre thereof to be true Wheras the Doctors to proue that two bodies may be together in one selfe place alledge out of the scripture that Iesus Christ entred into the house where his Disciples were the doores being shut The Ministers do answere that it is not written that he entred through the closed doores but only the doores being shut which the auncient Interpreter hath well giuen to vnderstand expounding in one of the places of S. Iohn where mention is made of that aboue said Cuum fores essent clausae Then when the doores were shut Iesus came c. Neuertheles the Ministers say they verily belieue and are assured of that which the scripture doth clearly say to wit that the doores being shut he came and stood in the midst of his Disciples But they cannot certainly define nor determine which way he entered whether it were through the walles or doores of wood which Hillary himselfe maketh doubt of in that place of his writings alledged by the Doctors Howsoeuer it be the Ministers do say that in entering he miraculously made way And that a body be it the wood or wall did yeeld and giue place to the body of Iesus Christ entering or that an opening was made vnto him by the Angell which opened and afterward shut againe the doores in a moment as before hath bâ—ne said And that howsoeuer it was done two bodies were neuer found in one selfe same place together Touching that they alledge out of S. Augustine in his booke de agone Christiano that Iesus Christ entered through the doores The Ministers deny not that he entred through the doores but that two bodies onely were neuer in one selfe same place together But if Iesus Christ entered through the doores that the doores at his entire gaue him place as is said For that which the Doctors alledge touching the Apostles suspition that it was a vaine vision it nought appertaineth to the present matter nor that also that they maruelled at the maner of his entry which was miraculous as they euer confessed And touching that which they adde afterwards in the opinion held by the olde heretiques of the bodie of Iesus Christ that it was not a true bodie because it did things aboue nature The Ministers doo shewe them that they litle think what occasion and foundation of their errour the auncient Fathers had presented vnto them had they confessed what the Doctors haue set foorth and doo obstinately defend of the bodie of Iesus Christ that it doth things not only aboue nature but also contrary to nature yea euen contrary to the will and ordinance of God And there is no doubt but such an opinion should be a great proofe for Marcion and other heretiques which
Primitiue Church And the Doctors haue attributed them to him in whose name they are intituled And so much there is that the said Iustine in the place alledged layeth the myracle to haue bene done in the bodie of Iesus Christ which being grosse and thick entered through the closed doores by the power of God contrary to the nature of a bodie And therefore the Apostles supposed it a vision by reason of the entrie made without opening as spirites doo wontedly enter Let the text be seene S. Hillary saith not only that he there entered in what sort soeuer it were by the omnipotencie of God as the Ministers will wrest his authoritie but as if he had now to deale with the said Ministers hee repulseth mocketh at all their euasions and subtilties which vpon this act they imagined Nothing saith he gaue place to open to such a bodie and that it lost nothing of it substance nor by it entry was ought diminished He addeth That the doores and clefts were shut and fast barred And in this neuerthelesse lyeth the myracle that the true naturall bodie of Iesus Christ contrary to nature by the omnipotencie of God entered into a house close and couert without any opening wherein hee plainly sheweth that the myracle consisteth in the bodie of Iesus Christ And for this let the text be viewed which the Doctors wish to be well examined by the Ministers S. Ambrose in the place cyted saith That S. Thomas was abashed seeing the bodie of Iesus Christ to enter Per in via septa corporibus Et quod natura corporea per impenitrabile corpus sese infuderit inuisibili aditu Through closures impassable for bodies And that the corporeall nature powred it selfe by an inuisible meane through an impenitrable bodie S. Chrisostome in the Homely of S. Iohn Baptist and in his Cōmentaries vpon the Gospell of S. Iohn expresly saith Qui intrauit per ostia clausa non erat phantasma non erat spiritus vere corpus erat Quid enim dicit Respicite videte quia spiritus carnem ossa non habet quae me habere videtis Habebat carnes habebat ossa clausa erant omnia Quomodo clausis octijs intrauerunt ossa caro Clausa sunt omnia intrat quē intrantem non vidimus Nescis quomodo factum sit das hoc potentiae Dei He that entred through the closed doores was not a vain vision was not a spirit it was truly a bodie For what saith he Behold and see For a spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see me haue Hee had flesh hee had also bones and all thinges were shut How entered bones and flesh the doores being shut All thinges are shut and hee entereth whome wee see not entering How it is done thou knowest not and attributeth this to the power of God Where S. Chrisostome without difficultie as doth also S. Ambrose acknowledgeth the myracle to haue bin wrought in the body of Iesus Christ in that hee passed through the shut doores by the omnipotencie of God S. Ierome in the places quoted by the Doctors manifestly writeth that the body pierced the closed doores euen as the Poets recount that the fight of Linceus pierced the walls to see through without opening S. Ierome then reasoned of the nature of a bodie which the Bishop of Ierusalem infected with the heresie of Origen held not to bee truly in Iesus Christ after his resurrection because contrary to the nature of a bodie he had passed through the closed doores wherein Saint Ierome as the other Auncients declareth that it nothing derogateth from the nature of the bodie because it proceeded from a supernaturall power And in the first Booke against Iouinian hee saieth as much where he vseth these words Iesus entered through the closed doores Quod humanorum corporum natura non patitur Which thing the nature of humane bodies admitteth not So that with others he placeth the myracle in the body of Iesus Christ There is no doubt but S. Augustine in three places at the least maketh expresse mention that this body passed through the shut doores and that this was done by the power of God aboue the nature of bodies and that therefore heretikes ought not to denie the true bodie of Iesus Christ besides the passages De agone Christiano and of the Epistle Ad volusianum alreadie alledged in the booke De Ciuitate Dei he saith so also Epiphanius in the first booke vpon the 20. Heresie and in the 2. booke vpon the 64. Heresie against the Origenists declareth that it is but a spirituall body to wit which looseth nothing of it corporall substance but changeth getteth new qualities and spirituall perfections and meete for spirites as to passe through the walles without opening And giueth example of the body of Iesus Christ which pierced and passed through the closed doores after his resurrection And euen so iudgeth as others do the myracle to haue bene wrought in the body of Iesus Christ and that because he pierced the shut doores as a spirit albeit hee were a true body Cirillus Alexandrinus determineth also as the others this myracle to haue hapned in the body of our Lord which by the like myracle walked vpon the waters against the nature of a body by the power of God and reproueth all them which ought suspected by this deed that the body of Iesus Christ was not naturall By all these authorities the foure grounds proposed are true And therefore to corrupt the intention and faith of so many Auncientes and learned Christians to bring in a confusion of new Interpretations is ouer-great impudencie For besides the diuersitie of Caluin and Beza the Ministers to that ende produce two others to wit that the Angell opened the doore as though Iesus had not power himselfe to open it or else had need of opening And the other is that the opening was made which way he pleased And by such diuersities the Ministers sufficiently declare that they know not where to rest And which is worse they could not alledge one only auncient Father for author of their fictions or that is contrary to all the others from the Primitiue Church And to alledge that the Iron gate in the Acts of the Apostles opened to S. Peter of it own accord serueth nothing to the purpose For the Doctors neuer denied the same but haue well saide that the scripture spake not of the gates of the prison and if at the entry of Iesus Christ the doores had beene so opened the Euangelist had as easily said it as he said they were shut and as S. Luke saith that the Iron gate was opened of it selfe There is no doubt but peruerse spirits which doubted of the truth of the bodie of Iesus Christ in this world were not of opinion touching the passage of the doores with other Christians And although they thought to helpe and aide themselues herewith to support their heresies as of all the other myracles hapned
that a Camell passed through the eye of a needle And yet is it saide that with God such thing is possible By the Ministers answere vnto the 29. article may easily bee seene that they deceiue and abuse their Disciples making them beleeue by faire words and writings that they really receiue in the Supper the true body of Iesus Christ the same which issued from the belly of the Virgin and was fastned vpon the Crosse for the restauration of mankind And wil make them to vnderstand that they who place not with the bread and wine in the Sacrament as they call it of the Supper but some spirituall effect onely as are the redemption righteousnesse sanctification life eternall and other gifts and benefites which Iesus Christ bringeth to his elect diminish the excellencie and dignitie of the same Sacrament and that they be Zuinglians But that besides such spirituall effects one must beleeue that hee receiueth truly the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper They hold neuerthelesse an other opinion For when they are pressed with arguments and cannot defend such an imaginarie and phantastike presence they confesse by their writings they are become Zuinglians and returne to the spirituall presence of Iesus Christ in the Supper which is as much to say as besides the bread and wine they receiue a certaine spirituall effect and not really the body as the Ministers do in the present answere which thing they make manifest by that they cyte of the Apostle S. Paul by which citation may bee gathered what is their opinion concerning the Supper to wit that the body of our Lord Iesus Christ is not really but by spirituall effect onely in the hearts of the faithfull For the Galathians by the hearing of S. Pauls preaching receiued not really the body of Christ crucified but had onely an imagination of the Crosse and passion of Iesus Christ and receiued onely the fruite of their faith that is to say by this meanes they were iustified and sanctified before God also the allegation which the Ministers make of S. Ciprian tendeth to this ende to shewe that in the Supper are receiued some spirituall effects onely which neuerthelesse by these words to embrace the Crosse of Iesus Christ to sucke his bloud c. be allegorically signified Wherein they denie against the intent of S. Ciprian in the Sermon of the Supper the reall prefence of the body of Iesus Christ The Doctors confesse that the argument they haue made is addressed to Caluinists and not to Zuinglians And they supposed that the Ministers would not otherwise haue thought of this Sacrament then Caluin Beza and the other Ministers renowmed to be Ministers of the Caluinist Church which they call reformed An other maner of speech vsed they which exhibited the confession touching that Sacrament to the Bishops at Poissy who freely confessed the body of Iesus Christ to bee really present in that Sacrament which the Ministers in conference with the Doctors do now denie And hereby the Ministers in the iudgement of the Doctors of Caluenists become Almanists Wherewithall they that maintaine the doctrine of the Church which they call reformed will not be greatly pleased seeing their principall pillars for not being able to answere an argument obiected by the Doctors do leaue them in the businesse considering that in the answer they say themselues to be so much enlightned with the holy spirit which maketh them vnderstand know all things Concerninig the article following they doo openly declare what their present opinion is touching the presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament by saying that the faithfull receiue no more in this time of the Gospell then did the Fathers before and vnder the lawe But certaine it is that the Fathers receiued not really the body of Iesus Christ which as then was not made Therefore the conclusion must follow that vnder the Gospell the body of Iesus Christ is not really receiued in the Sacrament which the Ministers call the Sacrament of the Supper To the 31. article they answere not as also they neuer could answere the same and they must necessarily confesse that in the power of their faith they do that which implyeth contradiction For they maintaine one thing to be present and not present at one selfe-same time and place And their spirituall or rather phantasticke presence maketh nothing to the purpose For according to their doctrine the body cannot be present but with it measures locally difinitiuely and corporally otherwise the body should be wholly abrogate and corrupted And the maner of it beeing there spiritually would not make that the body is not there or otherwise they falsly say it is present in the Supper and abuse the world Wherefore it is necessarie if the body be there yea spiritually and their doctrine of the nature of a body be true that the body of Iesus Christ be corporally difinitiuely and locally in the Supper Moreouer for as much as it is absent according to their confession it followeth that it is not there present And to conclude the Ministers say that it is there and not there And for the full solution without entering into the principall of the Argument they suppose to escape by obiecting to the Doctors some words of the breuiarie which the Doctors haue not yet seene The Ministers they thinke haue found them in some breuiarie of Monkes and remember when they were in the Couent that they were so accustomed to sing and say But although such things were found in the breuiaries vsed in the Romane Church such maner of speech might be defended in the sence which the Fathers haue giuen whē they said that the Apostles Conficiūt corpus Christi do make the body of Christ as the scripture it selfe saith that they baptise forgiue sinnes and saue those whom they conuerted which is meant as the Ministers of God Who of his owne authoritie and as Maister baptiseth forgiueth sinnes and iustifieth the faithfull persons Where the Ministers do maruell that the Doctors call faith a humane vertue the great and maruellous effects it worketh considered the Doctors say that the Ministers haue no great cause to maruell thereat seeing that euerie worke in as much as it is in man and that he therein worketh together with God is iudged and reputed humane Also the scripture calleth the faith of man the worke of man The Doctors shewe vnto the Ministers that after their wonted maner they dwell alwaies on small things and leaue that which is principall in the matter being ignorant or dissembling ignorance where lyeth the difficultie of that is handled As they do in their answere vpon the argument proposed by the Doctors whereby they obiect that the Ministers by their faith call they it diuine or humane may doo more then God can do wherevnto the Ministers without touching the point do answere with songs In the 32. article the Ministers lightly passe ouer many obiectious made them by the Doctors Whether there bee
them And for conclusiō they haue no other foundation of their saying then their owne coniectures and imaginations and the false interpretations which they giue to the writings of the Fathers To the faith wherof they would gladly constraine subiect the Church to the end that hauing laid that foundation they might afterwards build therevpon all the absurdities and errors they shall delight in touching the same And where they presuppose when Christ entered the shut doores walked vpon the waters and went out of the Sepulchre that such myracles were done rather in the person then in the other things Iustine writeth the contrarie saying that without any change happened either in his body or in that of S. Peter he made by his diuine power the Sea against nature to serue him to walke As also S. Hillary to the same purpose saith That by his power hee made all things passeable Wherevnto likewise agreeth S. Iohn Chrisostome attributing all that to diuine power and freely confessing that hee knew not the maner and the fashion thereof By meanes whereof the Ministers are much abashed that the Doctors are so presumptuous to determine a thing which by the scripture and Fathers hath bene left vndecided and wherein as S. Hillary saith wisely sence and words do faile the truth of the deed exceedeth the capacitie of humane reason How dare then the Doctors so boldly say that the body of Iesus Christ passed through the doores that there was penitration of dimensions that two bodies were in one selfe-same place Seeing that of all that neither in the scripture nor in the auncient Fathers there is not one onely sillable and that as is said the Fathers do confesse that their vnderstanding and sence were too feeble to comprehend or declare the reason of such a my sterie As touching the birth of Iesus Christ the Ministers repose themselues vpon the scripture which saith clearly that the Virgin was with childe that she brought forth that shee gaue sucke and that Apertaest vulua the wombe is opened in the child-birth They adde that the same doth nought derogate nor preiudice her virginitie and purenesse which consisteth in this point onely that shee knew not not was knowne of any man Moreouer they say that in beleeuing the same they follow the scripture and consequently they cannot erre nor bee heretikes nor they likewise which subiect and subdue their sence to the word of God as in this haue done the Fathers which are by them alledged In the following article proposed by the Doctors touching the manner of the resurrection of Iesus Christ there is nothing but coniectures slaunders repetitions troublesome and superfluous which the Ministers by their former answeres haue largely satisfied All that which afterwards followeth in the writings of the Doctors are but iniuries and scoffes in stead of reasons and arguments which is the last recourse of contentious spirits who seeing themselues destitute of reason and vnable to giue place to the truth defend themselues by clamours and slaunders Some reason should the Doctors haue for that which they say concerning the word Aphantos if there followed Autois but that which the Euangelist saith Ap'auton sheweth clearely that the interpretation of the said place and vnderstanding of S. Ambrose where vnto the Ministers agree is better then that of the Doctors As touching the opening of the heauens the Ministers answere that vsing the language of the scripture which saith clearely that in the baptisme of Iesus Christ the heauens were clouen asunder and then opned when S. Stephen was stoned they cannot faile And to apply to the ayre the signification of heauen is a humane imagination This also seemeth should diminish the Maiestie of God and of Iesus Christ who is lifted vp aboue all the heauens to establish so lowe as the ayre the Throne of his Maiestie And there is no likelyhood in that which the Doctors say touching the being of two bodies in one selfe-same place and that which the Ministers say of the sight of Stephen which extended euen to the heauens for as much as the one is a myracle of the power of God in nature and the other a wonder against nature and the will of God The Doctors in the article following do falsly impute to the Ministers that they affirmed it was a thing impossible for God to make a Camell to passe through the eye of a needle for they neuer touched this point in theyr former answeres but that part of the sentence onely where it is spoken of rich men Now to answere too and resolue their obiections the Ministers say that euen as God can saue a rich man by chaunging him and emptying his heart of so much vaine trust and presumption as is therein and whereof beeing grosse and filled hee is vncapeable to enter into the Kingdome of heauen so to him it is also easie to make a Camell passe through the eye of a needle hauing circumcised and pared off the grossenesse thereof and other things which might hinder the same to passe ****** First that the Supper which is celebrated in the reformed Church is the true institution and ordinance of the sonne of God Afterwards that the end for which it was instituted is to assure the faithfull of the true participation which they haue in the flesh of Iesus Christ crucified for their saluation and in his bloud shead for the remission of their sinnes and for the confirmation of the new couenant which God hath made with his people Thirdly they say that it is necessarie that the bread and wine abide in their proper substance and that after consecration otherwise they cannot be Sacraments of the body and bloud of Christ Lastly the Ministers say that the vnbeleeuers presenting themselues at the Supper by meanes of their vnbeliefe can there no other thing receiue then the outward signes of bread and wine and that to their iudgement and condemnation The Ministers on the other side propose vnto them touching the Masse that such as it is and now celebrated in the Romance Church it is nothing but a humane inuention and tradition Also that it is a corruption and prophanation as well of the holy Supper of our Lord Iesus Christ as of the true and lawfull vse thereof Also that it is an abuse of the Priesthood of Popish Priests and that there is no other Priesthood in the new Testament ordained to get and obtaine remission of sinnes nor also to make intercession and by prayers and merits to obtaine the fauour of God then the onely Priesthood of Iesus Christ They say moreouer that it is a blasphemie and sacriledge but of the sacrifice of the Romish Priests and that there is no other oblation then that which Iesus Christ once made with his body vpon the Crosse by which the wrath of God could be appeased his iustice satisfied sinners reconciled to God sinnes pardoned and the hand-writing of eternall death cancelled and abolished Also they say that the seperation of
the Priest in the Masse from the rest of the people is an abolishment of the Communion of the Supper and consequently damnable before God And to be briefe the adoration of bread and wine be it in the Masse or out of the Masse is an intollerable Idolatrie Two points yet remaine in the writing of the Doctors whereof the Ministers will admonish them The one is that the said Ministers haue neuer found in the scriptures that faith is a humane worke but that it is the worke of God and a gift which hee bestoweth vpon his elect The other point is that they confesse they cannot bring forth one auncient Author which hath said in expresse termes that one body could not be in diuers places at one instant for so much as the contrarie thereof seemed so absurd and straunge vnto them and so much against the reason and faith which all faithfull people ought to haue that they neuer thought such an opinion had found place in the heart of any man that was called a Christian The Ministers to ende this answere say that it will much more please them to handle the questions aforesaid then to dispute of the opening of doores of the Sepulchre or of the heauens as to their great griefe they haue done these dayes passed and that for two reasons The one because that the decyding and resolution of such questions cannot bee drawne nor gathered out of the scripture And the second because it cannot much serue either to the aduancement of the honour and glorie of God or the edification and instruction of his Church Thursday the 25. day of Iuly in the yeare aforesaid The Doctors reply to the writing of the Ministers sent vnto them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 25. day of Iuly about 8. of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. WHere the Ministers say that they doo great wrong to call them blasphemers seeing thereof they are innocent as Iesus Christ S. Stephen and Naboth to whome men falsly imputed such like crime The Doctors say that the Ministers therein doo imitate the good personages the Donatists who still complained of the great iniuries and slaunders which they endured said they of the Catholikes and yet men know by the histories how it was and how much they were like to Christ S. Stephen and Naboth as may also be knowne the conformitie of the said Ministers to such holy examples As much might the Anabaptists say to them of the Church called reformed when they call them heretikes And as much might and did Seruetus say who for his blasphemies was burned at Geneua reputing himselfe happie to be iudged by Caluin a blasphemer and to suffer for his doctrine the paines of death We must not therfore beleeue that the Ministers are not blasphemers because more boldly then all other heretikes they reiect the name of blasphemer but meet it is to examine whether their doctrine importeth blasphemie or not Now the Doctors say that there is no blasphemie worthy of more great execration then to denie the omnipotencie of God and no lesse it is then simply to denie that there is a God So that such deniall importes an Atheisme For to take from God that which is proper to his nature is as much to say as there is no God As it well pleaseth S. Basil writing in one of his Homilies intituled That God is not the Author of euill That it is no lesse blasphemie to say that God is author of euill then to say that God is not God In so much as to take away from God his goodnesse which to him is naturall is wholy to take away his diuinitie The like also may be said of the omnipotencie that whosoeuer denieth or diminisheth the same he denieth also his diuinitie The question then is to knowe whether the Ministers will abolish the omnipotencie of God not in proper termes for they seeme to confesse it but in affirming that the power of God is measured according to his will so that he cannot but that which he will and other like propositions contained in the precedent answere of the Ministers Whether the Doctors haue proued such propositions to containe blasphemies or no they refer them therin to euery man of sound iudgement who shal be any thing conuersant in holy scriptures and the bookes of auncient Christians which shall also be knowne by the Ministers friuolous answeres in their last writing to the Doctors obiections Who nothing maruel that the Ministers are deceiued in the nature of the omnipotencie seeing they erre in the foundation and know not wherein it lyeth and why God is called almightie For they haue learned of the scripture say they that God is almightie because hee can doo whatsoeuer he will doo and that nothing can resist him which is rather as a signe of the power of God But it is not that vnder correction wherein it consisteth for knowledge whereof it must be considered according to it obiect that is to say according to the things possible to be done so that there is nothing possible which God cannot do Now all without any exception is esteemed possible wherein is found no contradiction to be and not to be and that commeth not by default of the power of God which can do all things but of the repugnancie of the thing which cannot be Which the Ministers from the beginning had well said in euery answere but for that they had answered vpon some Interrogatories that the omnipotencie of God must bee measured by his will supposing to salue that error they are plunged in many other errors out of which for not consessing to haue erred they cannot rid themselues without falling into an infinite number of absurdities Moreouer the Ministers deceiue themselues when they will limit the power of God and not extend it to all things generally that humane spirit can conceiue or imagine For contrariwise it is doubtlesse that the power of God is great aboue all conceit and imagination of the humane spirit that it is infinite and incomprehensible as saith S. Paul God can do more then we demaund or vnderstand And where the Ministers say that God onely can doo all things which are not contrarie to his iustice wisedome goodnesse and truth and therefore cannot doo generally all things It hath alreadie beene shewed them that to bee able to doo things contrarie to the iustice wisedome goodnesse and truth of God was not power but weakenesse And by the selfe-same reason as saith Saint Augustine in the place by the Doctors in theyr former obiection alledged that he cannot do such things it is an argument of his omnipotencie and not of restraint thereof And where the Ministers inferre that because God cannot do such things he can by consequence do nothing which is contrarie to his wisedome and eternall will which is and euer shall be to doo all things well and wisely with number waight and measure and without that there is any iniustice or
the feare of God or any zeale of his honour to be wise and attentiue to weigh and discouer the sayd subtilties and practises of the Diuell and not to beleeue all spirites before they haue well sounded and tryed them and that they also approue not all the things which vnder the name of God may be proposed vnto them and which at the first may seeme to tende and appertaine to his honour and glorie but that they remember the Apostles admonition to try the spirites and that they verie carefully regarde the ende and scope of those which propose vnto them such doctrine And if there be any thing wherin heed must be taken of such cosonages and fraudes which are layd to surprise the simple it is needfull chiefly in this matter of the Omnipotency of God whereof is the present question For the Ministers do confesse that it ought to be knowne beleeued and vniuersally adored of all creatures in heauen and in earth Moreouer they confesse that the faithfull cannot haue a better foundation nor better rampert to leane vnto and sustaine themselues against all the endeuours as well of the diuel the world and their other enemies as also to be short of all the temptations wherewith they might bee assayled and befieged This Omnipotency they confesse is the hinge of the axeltree as it were wherevpon the world with all it parts is turned and sustained They confesse moreouer that the same Omnipotency is not only venerable to the Angels and blessed spirits in heauen and to the elect and Saints vpon earth but also terrible to the reprobates and diuels in hell So that the one doth willingly embrace and submit themselues vnto it and the others are constrained to bow vnder it and yeeld vnto and obey the same Lastly they confesse that it is infinite and of incomprehensible greatnesse to all creatures as the wisedome goodnesse Iustice truth and the other vertues and proprieties of our God This is that which the Ministers beleeue and confesse of the Omnipotency of God and that which they thinke all Christians ought thereof to beleeue and hold Now to make good vse of this Almightinesse and to apply it as is meete we must iudge thereof according to his will and of his will according to his word So that we ought not to attribute indifferently to the power of God all things good and euill ordered and disordered agreeable and contrary to his nature false and true But to well rule and order the thoughts and cogitations of Gods Omnipotencie presenting themselues in our hearts we must for our part measure the same according to his holy will and beleeue that it cannot be limitted letted nor hindred by any other will or power which wil or may be opposite vnto it Which thing S. Augustine well teacheth in many places as in the fift booke and 10. Chapter of the Cittie of God where speaking of God hee saith That he is called almightie because he doth all whatsoeuer he will and suffereth nothing if he will it not Also in the seuenth Chapter of the 21. booke For no other reason but this onely is he called Almightie that he can do all whatsoeuer he will doo Also in the first Chapter of the booke De Symbolo ad Catec Our God saith he doth all that which he will do and that is his Almightinesse Also in the 119. Sermon De tempore He is Almightie to do all things that he will do and ordaineth to be done These sentences and many other lyke found in the writings of that good Father and other Auncients do clearly teach vs the maner how we may well make profit of the faith we haue of the omnipotency of God That is in bringing vs backe to his will and iudging of his will by his word and not by the false imaginations which therof we may conceiue in our minds or that others would propose vnto vs As did Sathan to Iesus Christ whom he would haue induced to cast downe himselfe headlong vnder a vaine trust of helpe from the omnipotencie of God Euen so also the Monarchians who vnder colour and pretext of Gods omnipotencie which of some myracles they gathered would proue and establish their heresies and take away the personall distinction which is betweene the Father and the sonne saying That God being Almightie could therefore make himselfe Father and sonne together Of the Anabaptists in these last times is it also found that for a vaine assurance which they put in the omnipotency of God hoping he could nourish them as he did the byrds would not labour Many such lyke more great inconueniences may happen to all those that hauing such wandering and stragling thoughts of the Omnipotency of God wil not restraine nor reduce them to his will And this we see is besalue the Doctors who willing to apprehend and measure the omnipotencie of God by their owne imaginations rather then by his will and word are as saith S. Paul become vaine in their imagination and their foolish heart is filled with darknesse And willing to behold the Maiestie of God out of the limits and bounds which hee had shewed them in his word haue bene intrapped and ouerwhelmed of his glorie And that is befalne them which in their resolution they themselues haue touched to wit that for not hauing taken the word of God for their guide nor followed the steppes and pathes of his holy spirit they do erre from the faith which contrarie to that which the Doctors doo thinke is not destroyed nor ouerthrowne by the consideration of the creatures and workes of God which are as a myrror of his glorie and diuinitie but in as much as by them wee were turned away from the promises of God by the which we are assured of his will and almightinesse which doth warrant and assure vs of the effects and accomplishment of this holy will Which may bee seene and clearly obserued in them that were sent by Moyses to espie out and know the Land of the Cananites Two of which namely Iosua and Caleb could neuer be withdrawne from the trust they had in theyr God For as much as turning their mindes from the consideration of all things which could make them doubt thereof as of the Fortresse and munition of Cities the number force weapons and experience of the countrie Inhabitants they stayed their minds in the sole consideration of the promises which God had made vnto thē Cōtrariwise the others forgetting the same promises nought cōsidering but that which they saw before their eyes they fell and caused all the people to fall with them into that cursed and damnable infidelitie for which they were so grieueuously punished in the wildernesse and excluded from enterance therevnto and enioying of that thing which God had promised to theyr Fathers And in the example of Abrahā whose faith abode firme and stable by the consideration chiefly of the promise and will of God as S. Paul declareth So that the consideration of
there in such an estate that then the graces of God be multiplied increased and more and more confirmed in him So that Circumcision brought not vnto Abraham a new righteousnesse but sealed and ratified that which by the promise was communicated before vnto him Which the faithfull knowing in what degree of vertue they bee yet ought they not to contemne the holy Supper nor any way to abstaine from it when occasion and meanes serue them to be there Considering that they cannot be so promoted nor aduaunced in the knowledge and feare of God and in the faith of his promises that they may not yet growe and profit in what estate soeuer they be by the meanes which God hath therefore left and ordained in his Church And impossible it is for a man hauing true faith in his heart to do otherwise seeing hee hath the commoditie thereof For as much as the nature of faith is not to apprehend the promises of God onely but also to engender and bring forth in the heart of the faithfull a will to obey him and keep his commaundements and ordinances For answere to the first Article which the Doctors propose touching their Masse the Ministers say that the Doctors do openly blaspheme Iesus Christ to authorise with his name and by his example such an abhomination And that they also mocke the Church the world in preaching and writing such Impieties For answere to the second Article of the Masse the Ministers say that there is in the Church no other sacrifice by which men are reconciled to God and which maketh him mercifull and fauourable towards them by appeasing his wrath then that onely and alone which Iesus Christ hath once offered vpō the Crosse to his Father The vertue wherof being eternall to sanctifie all beleeuers and to obtain vnto them for euer remission and abolishment of sinnes there is no need of any other nor that which he hath once offered be euer reiterate For answere to the third Article the Ministers say that they which approue the Masse and other Priesthood then that of Iesus Christ and wil establish for remission of sinnes an other sacrifice then that he himselfe with his body vpon the Crosse offered are Antichrists and abolish as much as in them lyeth all the vertue and fruite of the death sacrifice of the sonne of God For answere to the fourth Article the Ministers do alledge what S. Paul writeth to wit That where remission is there is no more offering for sinne Now so it is that by the death of Iesus Christ remission hath bene obtained for vs as by infinit passages of scripture appeareth It followeth then that there is no more oblation for sin neither in the Masse nor out of the Masse And if there be none for the liuing lesse is there for the dead For answere to the fift the Ministers maintaine that the Communion is of the essence of the Supper as S. Paul sheweth in the first of the Corinthians 10. and 11. Chapters And as it is carried by the Cannon it selfe and other things about the Masse For answere to the sixt the Ministers say three things First that the Popish Masse is no Sacrament then that the body of Iesus Christ is not there And therof conclude that then the bread and wine there remaining ought not to be adored which being creatures cannot be adored but that they which adore them be Idolators For answere to the seuenth and last Article the Ministers say contrary to the Doctors that there is not any thing in the Masse which is not either directly or indirectly contrary to the word of God The Ministers for conclusion admonish the Doctors entreat them not to depart as they haue formerly done out of the bounds of the matter now proposed for disputation To the end that these two points which are now in debate betweene them may be wholly and perfectly decyded to the content and edification of them that shall reade the Acts of this conference Tuesday the 30. of Iuly in the yeare aforesaid A briefe Reply of the Doctors against the last Answer of the Ministers to them sent by my Lord the Duke de Niuernois the first of August about seuen or eight of the clocke in the euening 1566. THe Doctors after their resolution giuen vpon the Artice of Gods Omnipotency were not determined to returne any more therevnto as hauing sufficiently handled that matter But the horrour they haue of the new blasphemies contained in the last writing of the Ministers hath incyted them contrary to their purpose although not to reply at the least to admonish the Ministers and the reader of this present Conference of the said execrable blasphemies which they are constrained to confesse that will not acknowledge the Reall presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Aultar but dare therby deny the power of God himself The consideration wherof as the Doctors hope wil not only cōfirme the Catholikes in the faith of the said article but also by Gods assistance wil bring back many which are strayed separating themselues from the Church Catholike whē they shall vnderstand the detestable errors blasphemies which do follow the contradiction of the reall presence of the body and bloud of our Lord in the Sacrament Which also should serue for the conuersion of the Ministers themselues would they without passiō examine the reasons acts which haue bene proposed vnto them touching the power of God and sincerely iudge therof as resisting the holy spirit in stead of acknowledging their errors they are turned to all maner of reproach and iniury against them which of good will would admonish them and haue taxed them that they tended not but to roote them out Which thing the Doctors neuer minded and desire not but the saluation of the Ministers of all those that are seperated from the true Catholike Church Of which their preachings shall beare witnesse wherein they ordinarily exhort the people to pray vnto God for them True it is that they require the extirpatiō of the kingdome of Sathan and the rooting out of all heresies and peruerse doctrine rather by the preaching of Gods word then by all other meanes And they wonder why the Ministers are so pricked against them in their two last answeres seeing they haue giuen them no occasion thereof but haue taken it lightly for no other reason but because the Doctors haue written that many propositions set forth by the Ministers contained blasphemies which they should content themselues to denie or to proue that there are none and leaue the iudgement thereof to the readers without entering into such hotte coller seeing they professe to bee so much mortified patient and modest that albeit one should reproach them they would not reproach againe They should also well remember the faire tytles with which they honour the Catholique doctrine as with the name of superstition Idolatrie impietie abhomination and many other like yea not sparing
and therefore it is circumscript But they haue maliciously omitted as it is to bee supposed this little word place For the question is not whether a body be lymited or no seeing that no man doth call it infinite But the question is whether it bee essentially circumscript of place so that it cannot bee a body if it bee not in place for as much as the Ministers could not answere to the argument of the Doctors they haue cut off that which annoyed them The foure next articles deserue no new reply and therefore the Doctors send backe the readers to that which heretofore hath bene said They onely admonish that it is a great matter which the Ministers do hold that a myracle could not bee done in the body of Iesus Christ without chaunge of his nature and such an opinion do they impose vpon Instine who hath said and maintained with the other Auncients that the body of Iesus Christ passed through the doores without chaunge of nature albeit that the operation of the myracle was wrought in the nature of the body without changing the same but in giuing it a spirituall qualitie and perfection to wit subtiltie aboue the natural qualities of a body With like boldnesse call the Ministers the scripture of the Camells passage through the eye of a needle a parable and similitude as they doo that of the Supper and all others which withstand their errors And the better to escape they say that God saueth not but changeth and conuerteth the rich man and so cannot make a Camell to passe through the eye of a needle without diminishing and changing of his grossenesse But the Ministers will not consider that when our Lord spake of the rich man his entrie into the kingdome of heauen he put not the difficultie in the entring of the kingdome properly but in the conuersion of the rich man by which hee should obtaine the entrie and possession of heauen Therefore when our Lord saith that it is more easie for God to cause a Camell or Cable to enter through the eye of a needle then a rich man the kingdome of heauen hee intendeth to compare the conuersion of a rich man which is vnpossible with men to the passage of a Camell abiding in his grossenesse otherwise there should bee no apparance of difficultie and our Lord would not haue saide that such a thing had beene impossible to men The Doctors say moreouer that they haue not produced this place to proue and inferre properly the penitration of dimensions but to shewe that God can make a body to occupie place not proportionable to it greatnesse which is as well contrarie to the nature of a grosse and thicke body as that one body be in diuers places Where the Ministers do boast that they are not constrained to confesse any thing of Gods workes alledged by the Doctors out of the scripture it followeth not that the Doctors out of the scripture it followeth not that the Doctors haue brought forth vaine reasons to constraine and conuince them And for the same referre them to the Acts of the Conference And as touching the knowledge whether God could do such myracles alledged aboue the nature of a body the Ministers cannot escape whatsoeuer euasion they pretend vnconuinced if not openly yet silently at least to haue denied as well the power as the deed For affirming that God canot cause one body to be in diuers places because it repugneth the order by him established in the world and his wisdome and wil which disposeth all by good order and that it was against the nature of a body albeit as much may bee said thereof as may truly bee said of all the other things mentioned touching one body and that there are like reasons in confessing the one they must necessarily confesse all the others that there is the like reason The Ministers vnable to giue any difference and shewe why God cannot do the one and that he can doo the others haue silently consented thervnto And although they would neuer confesse the debt and yeeled themselues vanquished as they do boast it is no maruell for it is the nature of heretikes to be obstinate and resist the truth what reasons soeuer are proposed vnto them The Scribes and Pharisies neuer confessed to be ouercome of our Lord albeit his arguments were vnreproueable And albeit they that withstood S. Stephen had nothing to answere yet left they not to resist the holy Ghost which spake by him as the Ministers doo resist the same spirit which speaketh in the scripture and by the mouth of the auncient Fathers concerning myracles done in the body of Iesus Christ aboue nature Which the Ministers do repugne by I know not what vaine and friuolous starting holes S. Ierome speaketh well to this purpose Haeretici conuinci possunt non persuaderi Heretikes may bee conuinced not perswaded And Tertullian writeth Duritia baeretica vincenda est non suadenda Hereticall obduration is to be vanquished not perswaded And as touching the iniuries which the Ministers in this behalfe do multiply against the Doctors in that doo they imitate all the aduersaries of truth and giue testimony of the disquiet which such manner of people endure in theyr mindes when their errors are shewed them Of whom the Doctors haue pittie and compassion pray God to restore thē to their right sences For as much as they know that the conuersion of an heretike is one of the matters reserued to the omnipotencie of God In vaine doo the Ministers labour to produce store of Greeke to shewe that Penetrare Caelos dooth not signifie to passe the heauens without opening because the Verbe Dierchestai is found for passing where there is an opening But the Doctors neuer said that Penetrare or Dierchesthai may not be applied to open places or that one pearceth in opening of them for well do they know that it is met with in all Authors They haue well said that the Ministers would inferre a reall opening of the heauen by the rigor and proprietie of the verbe Aperire So might they also inferre that the heauens were shut in the ascention of Iesus Christ by the verbes Dierchesthai and Penetrare which strictly do signifie to pearce or passe through without that of it selfe it importeth an opening albeit a man may vse the same where there is an open passage But by the rigour of theyr signification can they not necessarily inferre an opening if the opening bee not shewed from some other place by some word or euident condition of the thing pierced as it is in the texts by the Ministers alledged Now in the ascention these words Dierchesthas and Penetrare are put for to pierce and no word is there added which importeth a division of the heauens The condition of which nor the state of the glorified body of Iesus Christ doo not constraine that one necessarily vnderstand an opening to haue beene made to suffer the body of Iesus Christ to enter Therefore did
consecrate vse not the blessing and pronuntiation of certaine words ouer the bread and wine withstanding that which Iesus Christ first did and then ordained to his Apostles and their successors so to doo they cannot take any consecration of the bread and wine and that in them any chaunge happeneth Whereof it followeth that they differ not from common bread and wine and that such a feast and banquet is but common And that it is blasphemy to attribute vnto it the name of Christs Supper Behold why partly the Doctors haue said that the Supper of the Ministers is a prophane and polluted banquet The Doctors admonish the Ministers to answere to purpose and plainely to the demaunds by them proposed which they haue not done which is the cause that the Doctors least they should trauell in vaine haue not yet willed to impugne their answere summoning them eftsoones to answere what is proposed to them without drawing backe from the Conference which they say they affect so greatly The first demaunde was generall for all the Sacraments to wit whether the Ministers did beleeue that two things were essentiall and necessary to the confection of the Sacrament namely the matter or element and the word The Ministers answere that the Sacrament in it perfection considered consisteth in three things c. They speake indeterminately so that one cannot iudge whether they vnderstand theyr saying of the Sacrament which they call the Supper onely or generally of all as they were demaunded Although because they alledge Ireneus one may coniecture that they meant but of the Sament of the Supper Moreouer it behoueth to note that which they adde in it perfection considered to haue alwaies a starting hole when speech shall be made of the essence of the Sacrament The Doctors require that the Ministers answere to the question proposed generally of all the Sacraments For there is lyke reason as touching the essence of the Sacraments in generall And that they openly declare what things be essentiall and necessary to a Sacrament to be made a Sacrament without speaking for the present of the perfection of a Sacrament containing the essence and spirituall fruites which be not of the essence of the Sacracrament To the second demaund the Ministers answere no more pertinently then to the first And namely where the Doctors haue demaunded whether it behooued to vse certaine words for the confection of a Sacrament and what word was necessary for the Sacrament of the Supper The Ministers haue sayd that the lowe and secret speaking of certaine words addressed to the elements was not the word necessary to the confection of a Sacrament But they demaunded not whether it behooued to pronounce that word with a lowe or high voyce but the Interrogatory was whether there be any words necessary to make the Sacrament that one ought to pronounce ouer the matter or in administring the matter and that they might be such words for the Supper And it is not sufficient to say that the word by which the ordinance of Iesus Christ is declared is the word of the Sacrament but it behoueth to answere in what words consisteth that word and when it must be pronounced As touching the sixt and principall demaund the Ministers answere not clearly and to purpose but make a captious answere by which one may conceiue what is their opinion of the presence participatioÌ„ of the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper And so temper they their saying that there is no Zuinglian nor Almanists which confesseth not thereof as much or more then they To wit that they are conioyned to our Lord Iesus Christ that they possesse him in the power of their faith and by the operation of his holy spirite to be made flesh of his flesh and bones of his bones c. But this is farre off from the demaund to wit whether the faithfull in the Supper receiue into theyr soules besides all the graces spirituall among which is the communication with our Lord Iesus Christ his true bodie and blood really truly and substantially And whether the Ministers in the Supper make not distinction of the substance contained and perceiued in the Sacrament with the fruites thereof proceeding And for more breuitie the Doctors demaund whether the Ministers do receiue and approoue that which Caluin hath written of the Supper and of that they receiue thereof in his Catechisme Institution and other bookes As touching the seauenth demaund the Ministers haue not vnderstood what hath beene proposed to them touching the Concomitance For they haue taken it as if one demaunded whether it were lawfull to receiue the Sacrament vnder one onely kinde or no. Whiche was not as then put in question But suche a difficultie was proposed to them namely whether in theyr Supper when one hath receiued the bread before hee receiue the wine he do participate of the true body of Iesus Christ without hee be partaker of his bloud vntill hee haue taken the wine or hauing eaten the bread whether he hath receiued the body and bloud before he take the Cup To which demaunds to auoyd vaine blotting of paper the Doctors admonish the Ministers to answere without wandering and to render open confession of their faith And that the Doctors may knowe what doctrine they ought to impugne or approue As touching the articles of the Masse the Doctors reserue them to their proper place which is of the sacrifice of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ After it shal be knowne and proued that they be present in the Supper and holy Sacrament The fourth of August the yeare aboue said The Ministers answere to the writing of the Doctors sent vnto them by my Lord the Duke de Niuernois the morning being 7. of August 1566. THe Ministers leauing aside whatsoeuer is superfluous and from the purpose in the writing of the Doctors as be theyr repetitions and reheaâ—salls dissembling also their iniuries and accustomed scoffings by which they much more proue the hate they beare to the truth and the Ministers then the questions by them propounded will onely stay on the points which seeme to require some answere The Ministers first say that they taxed not the Doctors to haue restrained the Church in a certaine place but to a certaine company and to the traditions giuen followed and by the same approued And they magnifie God that the Doctors doo now acknowledge the Catholique Church to stretch through the world and that it is not inclosed in the boundes and limits of the authoritie and traditions of the Romane Church which the Ministers confesse to haue beene then much esteemed of the auncient Fathers when errours abuses and vices did not as yet there abounde as since they doo But now that all things almost are there corrupted as well in manners as in doctrine and that nothing is there more odious then the word the light the trueth and the power of God The Ministers do say that as the state of the same Church hath
resolution of all the Conference determine by Gods grace to couch briefly by writing and in the clearest manner they can all what God hath taught them concerning the same and what they haue learned thereof by his word as well to satisfie the debt and bond which they haue to God and his honour to obey my Lord of Neuers and Madame de Buillon as lastly for the contentment and edification of the whole Church The Conclusion and resolution of the points as well of the Supper as of the Masse containing a declaration of that which the Ministers beleeue concerning the same and teache thereof in their Church by the word of God THe end and chiefe felicitie of men is to be conioyned with God and to abide in him For as much as it is the only meane by which all their desires can be contented and satisfied and by the which also their mindes and hearts can be plainly freed and deliuered from the hard and cruel bondage of sinne and of all the passions greedie desires feares distrusts which do assaile them Which was the cause why S. Paul placeth perfect beatitude and entire repose of the blessed in this that God is all in all in them But for as much as men be naturally corrupt and wicked and contrariwise God in all perfection is pure and holy the difficultie is to knowe and choose the meane by which they may approach vnto him Seeing that there is no societie betweene light and darknesse nor any communion betweene righteousnesse and vnrighteousnesse In them cannot this meane bee found by reason that of themselues they are wholly vnable and vncaple to relieue themselues from the miserie and curse into which they be cast headlong So that beeing blinde of vnderstanding they cannot know their owne good nor seeke it being rebels and heart-hardened and therefore of necessitie must they goe out of themselues and seeke the aboue said meane in Iesus Christ who was giuen them of the Father to bee their righteousnesse wisedome sanctification redemption way life and truth Then resteth it now to knowe how they may bee vnited and conioyned with him The Apostle dooth teach vs that the same is done by faith by which Iesus Christ dwelleth in our hearts and abideth in vs so that hee and wee are made one and hee and his Father are one Now there are two principall causes of this faith the one outward and the other inward The inward is the holy Ghost who is called the spirit of faith for as much as he is the Author thereof and createth and bringeth it forth in the harts of men mollifying and disposing them to receiue with all obedience the word and promise of God which is preached vnto them by the faithfull stewards and Ministers of the same Which word is the outward cause of faith And as the same faith groweth and riseth by degrees euen so doth the vnion which we haue with Iesus Christ and by his meanes with God vntill as saith S. Paul wee all meete together in the vnitie of faith and knowledge of the sonne of God vnto a perfect man and vnto the measure of the age of the fulnesse of Christ The increase of faith is wrought by the working and power of the holy spirite who was the first beginning and author thereof and afterwards by the continuance of the word purely preached and denounced and finally by the lawfull vse of the Sacraments ordained as seales for the certaintie and confirmation of faith and assurance wee haue of the foresaid coniunction with God through Iesus Christ and of the participation of all the good things grauntes gifts graces and blessings which by his fauour are purchased and gotten for vs. As of the remission of sinne of our regeneration of the mortification of the flesh and the lusts thereof To signifie which things and more amply assure vs of the exhibition and enioying of the same Baptisme was ordained of God to the end that in the water which is powred vpon our bodies and in the promise of God which is therevnto added we may behold as it were with our eies the inuisible grace which God vouchsafeth vs to wash and cleanse vs from our spirituall filthinesse and to fanctifie vs and make vs new creatures As also to further assure vs alwayes of life eternall and make vs growe in the hope wee haue thereof by the participation of the flesh of Iesus Christ crucified for our redemption and of his bloud shead for remission of our sinnes the bread and the wine are distributed vnto vs in the Supper by the ordinance of Iesus Christ But as the Ministers acknowledge that there is a vnion and sacramentall coniunction betweene the outward signe and thing thereby signified so say they on the other side that betweene them two there is such a distinction that the one ought neuer to be confounded with the other nor the spirituall thing in such sort fastened to the corporall which representeth the same that the one without the other cannot be receiued or that the two by necessitie bee alwayes inseperably conioyned together Whereof it followeth that they erre which will haue the bread in the Supper to bee chaunged into the substance of the bodie of Christ Iesus And they likewise which will haue him to be conioyned and corporally vnited therevnto So that whosoeuer receiueth and taketh the signes bee hee faithfull or vnfaithfull taketh and receiueth forthwith the thing by them signified Which error with the most part of others happening in this matter proceedeth of not well comprehending nor conceiuing what it is to eate the body and drinke the bloud of Iesus Christ Which thing ought not to bee vnderstood in sort as corporall meates are taken and eaten but after a spirituall manner onely as is declared in the sixt of Saint Iohn which in this consisteth that Iesus Christ dwelleth in vs and we in him and is done by the faith we haue in him as teacheth S. Augustine in the 25. tract vpon S. Iohn saying Why preparest thou the belly and the tooth beleeue and thou hast eaten And in the third booke and 16. Chapter de Doctrina Christiana where he saith as followeth When Iesus Christ saith except yee eate the flesh of the sonne of man and drinke his bloud ye haue no life in you It seemeth that hee commaundeth to commit some great offence It is therefore a figure wherby we ought to vnderstand no other thing but that it behoueth to communicate with the passion of the Lord and to retaine in our memorie that his flesh was crucified and wounded for vs. The eating then of the flesh and body of Iesus Christ is no other thing then a straight coniunction and vnion wee haue with him which is made by the faith wee adde to his promises Euen as by the mutuall promises made and receiued betweene man and woman the marriage is concluded and setled betweene them And although being so
bee briefe could in fauour and contemplation of his merits and dignitie obtaine of God remission of sinnes and the other graces needfull for them which trust in him and instantly desire him Secondly the Ministers say that there is no other sacrifice for sinne but that of Iesus Christ That he is the onely Lambe which beareth the sinnes of the world that there is nothing but his bloud whereby our filthinesse is washed To bee short that God taketh pleasure in no other sacrifice nor oblation and that hee requireth no other burnt sacrifice nor offering for sinne And that therefore Iesus Christe as it is written of him in the rolle of the lawe is come to doo and accomplish the will of God his Father Thirdly they say of the sacrifice of Iesus Christ that it was one onely and once offered by himselfe without that it was euer needfull afterwardes to repeate and reiterate the same considering the perfection and vertue thereof by which sinne is abolished and absolute and eternall sanctification obtained to all the elect as it appeareth in the 9. and 10. of the Hebrewes By meanes whereof no lesse blasphemy it is nor a thing lesse contrarie to the doctrine and meaning of the Apostle to approue the repetition and reiteration of the sacrifice of Iesus Christ then the pluralitie of sacrifices for sinne And if the Doctors would as they wontedly haue to disguise and colour such an abuse shewe forth their distinction betweene the propitiatory and applicatory sacrifice saying that the Priests pretend not in their Masses to sacrifice Iesus Christ for other end then to apply the merite of his death to those for whom they celebrate the same The Ministers answere that in so dooing they should attribute vnto Iesus Christ more then they do because all the fruite of his sacrifice commeth vnto vs by the application thereof As healing commeth not so much by the confection and preparation of the medicine as by the application of the same Furthermore the Ministers would willingly demaund of our Maisters by what meane the benefite of the death of Iesus Christ was applied to the Fathers before his comming seeing that as then they did sing no Masses Well seeth euerie man of any spirite or iudgement that such distinctions are friuolous and onely inuented to obscure the truth and dazell the eyes of the simple and ignorant For Iesus Christ who hath offered the sacrifice is hee himselfe which applyeth the same vnto vs by his spirite his word and his Sacraments To returne then to their former speech and declare why the Fathers haue called the Supper and all the action thereof a sacrifice It behoueth to note that there are many sorts of sacrifices in the Supper As the sacrifice of a contrite heart offered by publike confession of sinnes which there is made After the sacrifice of our body there offered by publike prayer which followeth the said confession Thirdly the sacrifice of praise there offered when they sing Psalmes after the confession and prayer After commeth the preaching of the Gospell which is called a sacrifice Rom. 15. then the confession and prayers ended the Minister presenteth himselfe to the people to preach vnto them the word of God The Almes which is an other kinde of sacrifice was heretofore brought forth in the Supper by the faithfull which would therby testifie not only their remembrance of the graces benefites of God but also their loue desire they had to relieue the necessities of their poore neighbors Besides all these Sacrifices there are yet in the Supper two particular sacrifices wherof mention is made in the writings of the Fathers The bread and the wine which were chosen and taken of the Almes brought thither for the poore and were consecrated that is to say deputed and appointed to the holy and sacred vse of the Supper The other is the memorie of the death and sacrifice of Iesus Christ celebrated and repeated in all the action of the Supper The which for this reason is called a Sacrifice by S. Iohn Chrisostome vpon the Epistle to the Hebrewes when he saith We make not euery day other Sacrifice then that of Iesus Christ. But rather saith he correcting himselfe we make the memorie of that Sacrifice S. Ambrose calleth it the memorie of our redemption To the end that we remembring our Redeemer may obtaine of him increase of his graces in vs. S. Augustine yet proposeth it more clearly vnder a comparison which he bringeth of the dayes of the passion and resurrection of Iesus Christ which he thus applieth when the Feast of Easter approacheth we vse oft times this maner of speech To morrow or within two daies we haue the passion or resurrection of Iesus Christ That cannot properly be vnderstood of the day wherein Iesus Christ suffered death which is long since passed but onely of the memorie of his death which is solempnized and celebrated as this day euery yeare A little after to appropriate his comparison he addeth Iesus Christ hath not he bene one only time offered in himselfe And neuerthelesse in the Sacrament of the Supper not only on Easter day but euery day also is hee offered to the people Also elsewhere The flesh and blood of this Sacrifice were before the comming of Iesus Christ promised by the figures of Sacrifices In the passion of Iesus Christ they were giuen and offered in trueth And after the Ascention of Iesus Christ into Heauen they are celebrated by the Sacrament of remembrance Of these and many other like passages one may deduct that the Fathers haue often called the Supper a Sacrifice by reason that in the same the memory of the Sacrifice of Iesus Christ is renued and celebrated The name of Sacrifice is by the Auncients often also applied to the Almes which the faithfull brought forth in the Supper As by Iustin Martyr in the second Apologie by S. Augustin in the 20. chap. of the 20. book Cotra Faust by S. Ciprian in the booke de Elimosina by S. Iohn Chrysostome Hom. 46. vpon S. Mathew Which thing may also be verified by the Canō of the Masse it selfe where it is said We offer to thy maiestie part of thy gifts benefits which ought to be referred to the Almes of the faithfull which the Minister in the name of the whole Church offered to God They haue sometimes also called the praiers there made Sacrifices As S. Ciprian vpon the Lords Prayer And Eusebius in the 7. of the Ecclesiasticall History Tertullian in the 3. booke against Marcion where alledging that written in Malachy of the cleane offering which ought to be made vnto God from the rysing of the Sunne to the going downe of the same saith that ought to be vnderstood of the Hymnes and praises of God Which S. Ierome expounding the passage aforesaid doth also confirme For conclusion of this matter the Ministers say that all the passages of the bookes of the Fathers wherin mention is
shuld make a long and vnprofitable aboad at Paris not hauing wherewithall to imploy theyr time Considering they were not there but by accident to wit that de Spina was come thither to passe further and make a voyage into Aniou and the other who was Minister of the Church of Orleance was lately come forth of prison where he had beene brought in the Moneth of Iune next precedent vpon a false accusation suborned against him by the enemies of Gods Church which charged him to be author of a pernicious and wicked booke written against the obedience due to Kings and Princes Therefore was it very hurtfull for him to soâ—ournâ— so long a time in a Citie whither hee came against his lyking For these causes they purposed to returne towards my Lord of Neuers to shew vnto him the things aforesaid and tell him that De Sainctes who might haue stayed and ioyned some other with him in the stead of Vigor was departed thence without making it knowne when his returne would be that it was not reason they should stay there being incertaine of that which they had to doo and considering that their Churches had need of them to execute therin their charges and that they desired the same Notwithstanding in the end they found it better to suffer an inconuenience and to abide there vntill my Lord of Neuers departed from Paris as in the end of the Moneth of August he should goe to his owne land called Coâ—lomiers For seeing the Doctors were then absent the Lord of Neuers being departed the Ministers could doo nothing not hauing whom to write vnto nor with whom to conferre These remonstances being liked by the said Lord hee gaue them leaue to depart by writing signed Lodouico de Gonzague and below Varin Secretarie Dated 26. of August wherein were declared the occasions here before touched and remoÌ„strance of the Ministers with promise made by the said Lord to cause the answeres which the Doctors would make to be brought vnto them And that by the meane of Monsieur de Buci S. George who was charged with this businesse Also the Ministers promised to be readie were it to returne to Paris or else to answere from the place where they should be as often as the Doctors should write These things thus done and passed the Ministers returned presently after supposing to haue some speedie newes from the Doctors But they haue attended and yet do attend without that there hath bene any appearance thereof And they vnderstood nothing of that matter sauing that many seuerall writings were afterwardes cryed and solde through the Citie of Paris In the tytles whereof some found meane to enterlace the word Conference to make shewe vnto the world that it was something touching the former disputations And such a subtiltie indeed was not without great profit to the Printers So great desire had men to know the truth of the thing For contentation of whom we haue thought meet to bring to light what was done concerning the same reseruing to another time to publish what the Doctors when they shall do it shall write against it and what the Ministers also will there vnto answere if they can recouer the same In the meane time shall each one be admonished to make profit of that which is here contained And to pray the Father of lights to shead more more the brightnesse of his spirit vpon his Church to the true vnderstanding of his holy word for the restauration and aduancement of the spirituall kingdome of Iesus Christ his sonne our Lord. So be it the 8. of Nouember 1566. FINIS A briefe Table of the titles of the Acts of the Disputation THe Preface containing the occasions of the Dispute following The first day of the Disputation which was Tuesday the 9. of Iuly 1566. touching the assurance one ought to haue of the word of God and of the meane to knowe what is the word of God and to discerne betweene the bookes of the Bible to call the one Canonicall and the other Apocripha The second day being Wednesday the 10. of Iuly touching the same matter with the resolution of the Doctors concluding that it is by the authoritie of the Church that the holy scripture is knowne to be the word of God And the resolution of the Ministers to the contrary That it is the spirite of God which sealeth and imprinteth the assurance thereof in the harts of the elect The third day being Thursday the 11. of Iuly containing the demaunds and answeres vpon the Creede of the Apostles and why it is so called The fourth day being Friday the 12. of Iuly comprehending the resolution of the Doctors concluding that it is by the tradition of the Church that one is assured of the Creed of the Apostles And that of the Ministers tending to this that it is knowne by the conformitie which it hath with the holy scriptures The fift day being Mâ—nday the 15. of Iuly where is the beginning of the disputation of Gods Omnipotencie vnder the couert whereof the Doctors do ground foure points contained in the 63. Page On this Omnipotencie and the points aboue said the disputes following as well by word as by writing were continued The sixt day of the Dispute Tuesday the 16. of Iuly The Ministers answere to the obiections of the Doctors 〈◊〉 Tuesday the 16. of Iuly The reply or obiection of the Doctors against the answere of the Ministers touching the article of Gods omnipotencie on Satterday the 20. of Iuly The answere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctors sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 22. of Iuly about fiue of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. The reply of the Doctors to the writing of the Ministers sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 25. day of Iuly about 8 of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. The Resolution of the Doctors touching the article of the Almightinesse of God in respect of the foure questions proposed by them to the Ministers Which serue to the vnderstanding of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament The articles proposed by the Doctors for the next and other conferences following according to the order of the said articles The answere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctors sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 28. of Iuly about seuen of the clocke in the euening the yeare 1566. A briefe resolution of all the answeres and discourses which the Ministers haue made vpon the matter of Gods omnipotencie in the conference which they haue had with the Doctors The answeres to the preface of the Doctors questions The answeres to the questions proposed by the Doctors touching the Supper A briefe reply of the Doctors against the last answere of the Ministers sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Niuernois the first of August at 7. of the clocke in the euening Anno.