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A54205 William Penn's return to John Faldo's reply, called A curb for William Penn's confidence, &c. writ in defence of his answer to John Faldo's printed challenge. Penn, William, 1644-1718. 1674 (1674) Wing P1355; ESTC R21591 18,461 30

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him And why did J. Faldo attempt it Certainly he did not design to confound T. Hicks To all this Confusion of his let me add his Vntruth He chargeth me with telling him at the Barbican-Meeting when he began to speak I was not there to dispute with him which is false to a Title Either his Ears were as infirm as his Voice was low or else he saith this to serve his present occasion however I said no such thing but understanding it to be him that spoak from some better acquainted with his * person I answered Thus the Noise of the Multitude was so great We could not hear what he said Though had I given that Answer he made for me I think it had been very reasonable since he never told us That he was One of the four besides more then that fixt Number had spoaken before him That the Quakers should clamour Hicks Hicks to answer my End and force his Silence is as true as the rest It was the Multitude that frequently and importunately cryed Hicks Hicks Hicks as looking upon it unreasonable that one who had shown himself so arch in abusing us should pretend such Inability to answer our Charge as that other Folks must mostly mannage his Affair But that to silence him was to answer my End is both to tell A and proclaim the good Opinion he has of himself as if it stood our Cause so much upon to have him silent and T. Hicks speak Poor T. Hicks this was not kindly done of J. F. but perhaps he meant it of his better Elocution and Skill in stating the Question recommended to us in his Curb to my Confidence Modest Man that he would be thought But what saith he to this part of my fair Offer That if in any thing his Charge be singular we should be ready to debate it at the same Meeting or Meetings with the Baptists to avoid Vnnecessary Contests since most of the Particulars of his Charge are taken in by the Controversie depending between us and the Baptists It is not only an Vntruth sayes J. F. but a meer Shift for in the One and Twenty Proposals to be debated by them there is not one of the Particulars of my Charge Besides in Position to be disputed on not only the Matter but the Form and each Term is of great Consideration Which is as much as to say if I understand J. Faldo's Meaning that after we have disputed the Matter of the same Questions with T. H. and his Three Assistants they must be disputed over again upon J. Faldo's new Model which one Nice and Humorsom Impertinency shall make Disputes both Endless and Useless Let him bestow his Skill upon T. Hicks his Cause wants it and do their utmost together But he would fasten an Untruth upon me for saying that most of the Particulars of his Charge are taken into that Controversie affirming That in our One and Twenty Proposals there was not one of the Particulars of his Charge To which I need say no more but this The Charge we exhibited against T. Hicks contain'd so many particular Charges I grant they related to Matter of Fact and in that sense the Particulars of J. Faldo's Charge against us were not explicitly there yet they that please to read what follows the One and Twenty Particulars as given in to the Baptists exhibited and read at Barbican and since printed in our first Account they will find that we offer after a full Consideration and Determination upon the foresaid Particulars to come to Doctrinal Points which are chiefly in Controversie between us and them upon T. Hicks 's Three Dialogues and I hope J. Faldo is not grown quite so desperate as to deny that most if not all the Particulars of his Charge fall in with T. Hicks's Attempts against us and that materially too I have heard as if such a Confession was one part of his Speech at the first Barbican-Meeting However if he denyes their Endeavours to have been so harmonious I offer to prove them so but could I not do it yet I made Provision for him wherein his Case is singular Besides I desire the Reader to take notice I did not say the Particulars of J. Faldo's Charge were exprest in the Catalogue of our Charge of Matter of Fact against T. Hicks but that they fell in with the Controversie which word Controversie takes in both Fact and Doctrine And since he could fall in with T. Hicks upon Matter of Fact at Barbican wherein he was not concerned there can be no just Pretence for him to refuse falling in with T. H. in Matter of Doctrine wherein he is concerned So that in short I am neither guilty of Vntruth who never said that most of the Particulars of his Charge were concerned in the One and Twenty Particulars of Fact exhibited against T. H. but in the Controversie which is most true nor yet of Shis●●ng in referring him to our Meeting with T. Hicks since I therein only offer what his own Words and Practice countenance me in especially since I further added as before said That if in any thing his Charge was singular from that Controversie we should be ready to hear and fairly debate at the same Meeting to avoid fresh and unnecessary Contests One would think this were pretty fair to a Man under J. Faldo's Circumstances with us I leave the Reader to say where the Shift and the Vntruth lieth Only let me add Two Passages more that will not a little help him to make a true Judgmenr of the Man The one is his telling the World That by my Manuscript Letter to him I do in effect unsay all again that I said of accepting his Challenge in my Printed Answer and yet neither prints the Letter though but short nor that Passage he fastens his Consequence upon It s true I told him that it was our present Resolution to stick to the Matter of Fact against T. H. and so much he prints but what is that to the Purpose Will any scuh Passage bear an Ergo W. Penn unsaith all he said of Accepting the Challenge c Or therefore W. Penn will never proceed to Matter of Doctrine because he first resolves to stick to Matter of Fact the Method agreed upon The other Passage is this For my part though I shall not refuse any Opportunity offered to defend the Christian Religion from its Adversaries yet I expect that Mr. Penn shall undertake to defend the Quakers and himself especially from my Charge intire as it is exhibited and until then I shall look on him as declining it At what rate I decline a Meeting and how well J. Faldo proves it impartial men may judge But one would think by what he saith as if he were another Tertullian and the Quakers a pack of obstinate Heathens He is unfit to defend Christianity whose Works prove he doth not understand it unless the Jew outward with all his Envy be the Jew inward or a froward Pharisee a good Christian No No. J. Faldo we affirm hath first charged impious Errors upon us and then abused our Writings to countenance them with And though this be largely and effectually discovered in not only my Answer at which he let fly a squibbing Reply but in my Rejoynder too being a more particular Resumption of the whole Controversie and unto which he never yet made any Return we see he hath Forehead enough to insinuate as if the Quakers still remained undefended This is the man that undertakes to Cure my Confidenct who begs so unreasonably and importunately and doth as good as threaten if I refuse his Terms and which aggravates the Matter he would have People believe that I shift defending the Quakers whilst he is yet so manifest a Debtor to our Defences Well but for all this that it may sufficiently appear we neither did not do decline a Meeting with him Let it be observed 1st That I gave him timely Notice of our Wheeler street-Meeting with an Invitation to be there and went more in Expectation of him then T. Hicks from a Report that T. H. would not but that John Faldo intended to be present though both thought fit to be absent 2dly If he yet thinks it convenient to imbrace that ●ffer already made viz. To be one of the four a Place he confesseth to have accepted at the Barbican-Meeting even about another man's Fact Or Lastly If through the Apprehension he hath of T. H's ill Elocution and great Conceit he hath of his own Oratory with his better Skill at Forming and Terming the Question he can prevail with the Baptists to be their Mouth in the present Controversie we shall through God's Assistance be ready to embrace any convenient Time and Place for a free and publick Meeting And that he may not think himself unconcerned in this Proposal nor want any Encouragement we can well give him to accept it I do hereby offer at such a Meeting or Meetings first To prove him as well as T. Hicks an Abuser of us and our Writings by Forgery and Perversion And next to maintain those Doctrines which are indeed believed and asserted by us to be Scriptural and therefore Christian And if this will not please him I shall not think my self oblieged to gratifie every nice and critical Humor he is troubled with but leave him to tire himself with the Pain of his own manifest and merited Disquiet Though my Soul beseecheth Almighty God if it please him to turn him and the Hearts of our Enemies that they may see how much they wound Christianity in pretending to defend it and grieve that Holy Spirit which would lead them into Holiness Meekness Patience and Love by these Tempestuous Assaults upon the Faith Practice and Persons of their Harmless Neighbours 12th 9th Mon. 1674. I am a Real Friend in the Vniversal Principle of God to all men and therein seek Peace with all men William Penn. THE END I never saw him before and he asserts in his this printed Paper that he never saw me till the Barbican Meeting yet several Moueths before in his printed Vindication he saith he had spoaken with me
the next Instance brought to prove our Books unscripturally written Child Then the Scriptures are to be owned and believed as a true Testimony of what the Saints were made Partakers of in that Day Father Yes they are to be owned and believed and they that do not so they are to be denyed An admirable Confession to the Scriptures Is this the way to prove W. Smith's Book unscripturally written That there is not an Exhortation to read the Scriptures and that the whole scope of it is to throw Dirt upon them yea to deny them though J. Faldo himself tells us that W. Smith teacheth that those ought to be denyed that do not own them but the Truth is J. Faldo's Proofs against the Quakers are like Hebrew to be read backwards He hath a Faculty beyond the common rate of men to facilitate his own Confutation But he makes W. Smith further to Answer Thou must take heed Child of giving more unto the Scriptures then unto them belongs lest in so doing thou diminishest from the Glory of Christ What of all this May not People Idolize as well as undervalue the Scriptures Ought they to be put in the room of Christ Or is it ill done to exhort People to prefer Christ before the Scriptures How can J. Faldo call this part of W. Smith's Answer Unscriptural and yet believe those words of Christ be any part of Scripture Search or rather ye search the Scriptures for in them ye think ye have Eternal Life they are they which testifie of me ye will not come unto me that ye might have Life Joh. 5. 39 40. I am the Way the Truth and the Life Joh. 14. 6. Christ himself here teacheth us to give him the Preference and implicitely rebuketh the Jews from expecting Eternal Life in the Scriptures rather then in Him who is the Way the Truth and the Life His last Instance is this Child I am sensible that there is something in my Conscience that lets me see my ●ecret Thoughts the Intents of my Heart but I have not known what it hath been nor hitherto have much regarded it Father That is the true Light c. Child But if I should turn to it and obey it when it reproveth me for Sin is there Power in it to save me from Sin and to deliver me from Iniquity Father Yes Child All Power in Heaven and Earth is in it c. Now judge Reader saith J. F. If all these things are contain'd in the Scripture But I will help the Reader to judge rightly in this matter and question not if by Containing he means as he ought the Substance of such Answers and not that they are so laid down to prove them to be according to Scripture and therefore Scriptural I st That it is God who searcheth the Heart tryeth the Reins and telleth unto Man his Thoughts the Prophet affirms and I know no body that pretends to Christianity denyeth it 2. The Apostle asserts That which may be known of God is manifest men for God hath shown it unto them Rom. 1. 19. 3. That it was the Apostolical Message That God is Light 1 Joh. 1. 5. 4. That whatsoever doth make manifest is Light Ephes 5 13. 5. That Christ who is God over all blessed forever is that True Light which thus enlightneth every man 6. That all Power in Heaven and in Earth belongs to Christ the true Light Now unless he denyes Christ to be God or Christ to be Light or that He the true Light so searcheth c. or that all Power in Heaven and Earth belongs to Him it will naturally follow that to say All Power in Heaven and in Earth belongs to God Christ or the Light of the World is Equivalent For we do not assert as some Ignorantly and some Malitiously have printed reported That all Power in Heaven Earth is in the Ma●ifestation but in him that g●ves the Manifestation I have taken great Care with several others to explain our Belief in this matter if possible to prevent such Evil-minded Men as this Adversary from making so Ill and Use of our Innocent Expressions and giving their own monstrous Consequences for our Scriptural Principles Thus much to evidence to my Reader how groundlesly J. F. flung Vnparall●l'd Falshood and Confidence upon me for asserting that those Books before mention'd were generally written in a Scripture Style and with what Weakness he hath endeavour'd to disprove me I shall among a multitude of Instances that might be given produce 10. to show to my Reader with what Truth those Imputations belong to J. Faldo and how exactly he character'd himself when he bestow'd that Reflection upon me 1. J. Faldo affirms that W. Smith not only quoted never a Scripture writ unscripturally but that he had not one Exhortation to read the Scriptures nay that the main Design of the Book was to deny them and throw Dirt upon them yet J. F. thus cites him concerning the Scriptures Child Then the S●riptures are to be own'd and believed c. Father Yes they are to he OWN'D BELIEV'D and they that do not so are to be DENIED To this let me add another notable Passage in the same Discourse cited by me in that very Page of my Rejoynder where my Challenge lay which he thought no Boldness to accept though he was so modest as not to be so bold with this Passage Quest Of what Service are the Scriptures as they are given forth and recorded without Answ MUCH EVERY WAY unto those than have receiv'd the same Spirit from whom they were given forth for unto such they are PROFITABLE and MAKE WISE unto Salvation and are unto them of Service for INSTRUCTION EDIFICATION COMFORT Rejoynd pag. 61. Is there no Exhortation lodg'd in these words And is this to Deny or throw Dirt upon the Scriptures If any shall object W. Smith's making the Spirit necessary to the profitable Reading of the Scriptures let them go to W. Tindal J. Bradford Bp. Jewel J. Philpot Luther Calvin Peter Martyr and others they will preach them the same Doctrine which I have observ'd in my Rejoynder and may easily be found in my Catalogue of Authors 2. My second Instance shall be this That he makes W. Smith call the Scriptures Traditions of Men Earthly Root Darkness Confusion Corruption All out of the Light and Power of God which he only asscrib'd to degenerated men their Worship Imaginations and Traditions See Quakerism no Christianity pag. 117 119. Vind. p. 41 45. My Rejoynder from pag. 141. to 157. 3. That the Quakers understand by Knowledge according to the Flesh the Vse of the Vnderstanding though santified Qu. no Chr. pag. 41. Vind. p. 24 25 My Answer p. 35. Rejoynd p. 424. 4. That I. Penington should call Visible Worship as sub the City of Abomintion Vind. p. 50. Rejoynd l. 194 195. 5. That by Traditions of Men we understand the Scripture or written Word Qu. no. Chr. part 3. p.