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A96398 The Quakers no deceivers, or, The management of an unjust charge against them confuted. Being a brief return to a pamphlet, intituled, The Quakers proved deceivers ... by John Horne ... / by one who is counted a deceiver, yet true, George Whitehead. Whitehead, George, 1636?-1723. 1660 (1660) Wing W1948; ESTC R223010 28,303 43

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resurrection of the bodies of men c. Rep. This is another slander for we own the resurrection of the bodies both of the just and unjust according to the Scriptures and see how again this accuser is confounded He and T. M. in a Paper to me say That we we are of no judgment about the Resurrection To which I say then how should we either deny it or affirm ought of it Several other things hath I. H. also falsly accused us within in his fourth page which I have answered elsewhere And to my saying that Christ bid Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect I. H. saith Exhortations to things prove not those things to be perfectly attained by any here nor doth the Scripture ever say Let not sin be in you as if men might get it all out though it says Let it not reign in your mortal bodies Rep. Then if the things which Christ exhorted men to upon earth may not be perfectly attained by any here to what end or effect was his Exhortation What must men be under the commands after death which they had in their life time and not till then fulfill them Here 's darkness indeed manifest and the commands of God put afar off and made of none effect by such as are out of his love for he that loveth God keepeth his Commandments and is it not all one for the Scripture to say Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect as if it said Let not sin be in you Or the same to say Wash you make ye clean or keep Gods Commandments and love and serve him with all your heart soul strength and minde which must be fulfilled then what part of man must be a subject for sin to dwell in while he lives here as J. H. would have it if no part of man be a subject to sin so long as he lives then it cannot abide in him as take away the body of it and its members cannot remain And to my saying that J. H. had not proved that the Prophets and Apostles had sin in them so long as they lived he saith How false that was appears in what J. H. said on Psal 143.2 To which I say that Scripture does not prove that the Prophets and Apostles had sin in them so long as they lived for there it s said Enter not into judgment with thy servant O Lord for in thy sight shall no man living be justified and what J. H. said on this will not prove that the Prophets and Apostles had sin in them while they lived seeing the Scripture it self doth not prove it it s no matter of his words who perverts the Scriptures and that Scripture does not include the Saints as to prove them unjustified who were changed from that state wherein no man living could be justified in the sight of God and were come thorow the death and the many trials and tribulations into the life and righteousness of Christ wherin they were justified and the Prophets of the Lord who desired the Lord to cleanse them from their secret sins and from all iniquity in their life time they prayed not in vain as this Priests Doctrine in effect accuseth them in his accusing them to have sin in them so long as they lived for the Lord giveth the righteous the desires of their hearts Psal 37.4 Prov. 10.24 Again J. Horn relates part of our Discourse deceitfully and imperfectly in these words Viz J. H. Was not Paul born of God when he says We also that have the first fruits of the Spirit even we our selves groan within our selves waiting for the adoption the redemption of the body and then these words he lays down for G. W. his Answer viz. Paul when he travelled and was groaning for deliverance and waiting for the redemption of the body was not as yet born of God but afterward he witnessed a being redeemed from sin and then he was born as a woman when she is in travel to be delivered the childe is not yet born J. H. then says People I pray did you ever hear of a woman in travel before that woman was born was there ever such a thing here he says all the people fell a laughing at G. W. and then J. H. urges 1 Joh. 5.1 Whosoever beleeves that Jesus is the Christ is born of God Paul did beleeve Jesus to be the Christ when he was an Apostle and writ to the Romans and then he saith here George was pittifully put to it and all the people generally see his confusion and saith that G. W. was pittifully shackled and nonplust Here John Horne hath both belyed me and wronged my words and left out the greatest part of what I said that cleared my Answers to the understandings of such as had any sobernesse and seriousnesse in hearing the discourse And that People generally see my Confusion or that I was shackled and non-plust these are some of I.H. his lyes and scornfull aspersions cast upon me as many that heard the dispute can witness against him for impudently belying and slandering me the sum of what I answered and chiefly intended though I could not have liberty to open what I said so much there as here it was thus Paul witnessed the groaning and travelling in pain before the birth was born in him or before he was born of God or in the state of him that is born of God intending as in 1. Joh. 3. who cannot sin which Paul could when he did the evil he would not even when he travelled in pain for deliverance from the bondage of corruption for where the son or birth from above is born the glorious liberty of the sons of God is injoyed which the creature waited for and there the travelling in pain for deliverance is ceased and the bondage of corruption removed for the travel is before the birth be brought forth and as for my instancing the womans travelling in pain before the child was born J.H. hath perverted my comparison it was not intended to prove that Paul was not born into the world according to the flesh wherewith he travelled as if a woman were not so born when in travail but in reference to the travail before the birth which was from above was born and according to what I said Christ spake when he said to his disciples Ye shall weep and lament but the world shall rejoyce and ye shall be sorrowful but your sorrow shall be turned into joy a woman when she is in travail hath sorrow because her hour is come but as soon as she is delivered of the child she remembreth no more the anguish for joy that a man is born into the world Joh. 16.20 and so it was evident that the disciples of Christ knew the travail in the sorrow before the man or birth from above was born in them and they believed and hoped when they were in travail and pain before they became that birth for that birth is free and is not that
Land was kept quiet under his Reign but after he departed from the Lord he had wars for as Azariah said unto them the Lord is with you while you be with him and if ye seek him he will be found of you but if ye forsake him he will for sake you 2 Chron. 15.2 and said Hanani the Seer unto Asa The eyes of the Lord run to and fro thorowout the whole earth to shew himself strong in behalf of them whose heart is perfect towards him herein hast thou dealt foolishly therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars which manifests that then his heart was not perfect towards the Lord 2 Chron. 16.7 to the end Oh! I see this J. H would willingly have men accounted perfect with the Lord when they are sinners and if such a perfection were he would own it But this will not serve his turne against us for we own another kinde of perfection then he would have not a perfection in the sinful state or where men are departed from the Lord into the persecuting nature but such a perfection as is enjoyed thorow the sanctification of the Spirit where they that feare the Lord shall not depart from him And whereas I. H. tells a story of one Giles Rose who came when we were in discourse whom he saith is a poor deluded man that was one of the first that turned Quakers in Lin and that it hath been said he objected sometimes against them some dishonest carriages between some of their speakers and a woman of them c. The people hearing him ●he said Giles being at a distance like a kinde of a distracted man I. H. saith and Thomas Moore said to me see the fruit of thy Ministry George thy principles are ready to lead men into distraction and he saith the people laught c. To which I say you may here see the malice and wickedness of the men in laying down as they eount them his words as an evidence against us whom they count but as a distracted man to render us odious to the world and to make them laugh at us which so often I. H. hath boasted in and yet he hath some of this relation touching what the said Giles should say but by report of him and not all from his own mouth as appears which sheweth himself like one of the Prophets enemies who said Report and we will Report Ier. 20.10 and the things he hath given forth against us as in that distracted mans name as they count him are lies and slanders and will be the burthen of the inventers and spreaders of them and as for that man vvhom this Horne brings as a Witnesse against us he vvas for some time convinced of the truth but running from his measure into his vain imaginations friends disovvned him and then he turued into envy sgainst us and so it is no matter vvhat he and such as beleeve him say against us the truth in vvhich vve live and our principles vvhich are not any ground of distraction as J.H. and T.M. accuse them shall stand for ever over all our enemies vvho hate the truth and over all vvho turn into Judas vvay to perdition But J.H. vvho thus hast shevved thy venome in spreading lies and slanders against us doest thou think if I vvould go about it that I could not lay open much vvickednesse and ranting carriages that have bin among you and several of thy company and tell you of your Loves and of a vvoman and her levvdnesse that vvas highly set up as a Preacher or Instructer among you and several others But I had rather be a sufferer by you then shame you if you do not give me the more occasion by your malice and slanders against the Truth to lay you further open And now to Horns other part of his charge in his Argument where he saith thus viz. They that undermine and destroy the hope of the Gospell preached by the Apostles they are preachers of another Gospell or doctrine then the Apostles preached and are to be accounted accursed and not received or followed This I charge you Quakers with and you G. W. by name in that you say the coming of Christ at which the dead in Christ are to be Raised is already past and over c. I Answer Here J. H. Thou hast charged us exceeding falsely and belyed us shamefully for we never said that the coming of Christ at which the dead in Christ are to be raised is already past and over but that the saints remained unto the coming of the Lord as the Apostle saith we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord according to our words which thou hast falsely and slanderously grounded thy charge upon which are against thee and Thomas Moore where we said as for that 1 Thes 4.15 Concerning the coming of the Lord from heaven which these men aforesaid would blindly put afar off as to a coming of Christ with flesh and bones the Apostle saith we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep so that coming of Christ the saints who then were alive remained unto it To which John Horn saith judge good people is Christ yet come are the dead bodies of the saints raised and the living changed and all caught up together in the air to meet him If these men be not such as we are to avoid and account accursed who be To which I say thus hast thou wrested our words and made a false construction of them contrary to the end and intent of them for what we said was against your imaginations who look carnally for the coming of Christ as many of the world do of whom Christ said I go away and the world seeth me no more Iohn 14. And I vindicated these said words of ours mentioned and witnessed to the severall comings of Christ as he was revealed in the saints from glory to glory because thou opposed these words to render us odious and I never denied the coming of the Lord from Heaven when he shall bring with him them that sleep in Jesus and raise the dead in Christ nor ever said I that was already over and past as thou hast belied me for when I urged the Apostles remaining till the coming of the Lord as in 1 Thes 4.15.17 Thou to render me odious urged ver 13.14.16 Which I never denied nor doubted of her and so I slighted disputing about it though thou would have made it disputable against me to make good thy charge and slander against me and what confusion would thou charge upon us as to say the coming of Ghrist at which the dead in him are to be raised is already past and over as if that which is yet to be vvere over and past vvith this non-sense thou might as vvell have charged the Saints as us who remained unto the coming of the Lord and yet did not prevent them vvhich were asleep from being raised though I