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A70985 The reign of the whore discovered and her ruine seen her merchants the priests examined, and with the Romish church (their elder sister) compared and found agreeable in many things ... : some queries also for those people that pay tythes, and priests that receive tythes, to consider and answer : and whereas their cry hath been loud against us the people of God called Quakers, that we are Jesuits, and Jesuitical, in tryal they are found false accusers, and of the same stock and generation themselves ... : also the sustance of a dispute which was the 15th day of the 2d month, called April 1659, at the Bridge-house in Southwark, between VVilliam Cooper, VVilliam VVhitaker, Thomas VVoodsworth, VVieles, Watkins, Cradicut, and others who profess themselves ministers of Christ, and some of the people call'd Quakers ... / written in that which gives to see over all the popish train ... W.S. Smith, William, d. 1673.; Burrough, Edward, 1634-1662. Following letter containing the substance of the dispute. 1659 (1659) Wing S204A; ESTC R33983 31,593 40

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your Idolatry in your lightness pride and high-mindedness How many of you have appeared like a Troop of Robbers in taking and causing to be taken away violently poor peoples Ports and Pans and Kettles and dishes from them sometimes not leaving them things necessary to make ready their food in and Bedding and Clothes and Oxen and Cows and Horses and Harness and Barns of Wheat and Cart-loads of Hey and Corn and their bodies also cast into prison Hath not this been your Work in this Nation Hath not the Lord raised a patient and harmless people to try you which have not striven against you in their Wills that you might manifest what was in your hearts notwithstanding your talk of Christianity Have we not seen the murtherer offer a sacrifice and the prophane person weep for the blessing and the children of the Devil call God Father Hath not our eyes seen this And is it not manifest if the Lord God which is the higher Power unto whom our souls are subject did not over-power chain and fetter and break the horns of the Wicked no less then our lives and blood would satisfie for had not you to wit you especially called Presbyterian Priests rather sit as a Popish Synod or Inquisition then in the spirit of meekness lowlinss and soundness in words in life and conversation and Scripture-example prove your selves Ministers of Christ by your fruits effects Was ever the true Ministers of the Gospel in any age or generation since the days of Christ the Son of the living God manifest at Jerusalem maintained as you are maintained by the ruine of others Did they ever take any thing violently from any man Nay did ever they take or receive any thing at all from those that denied their Doctrine and that would not receive nor own them as Ministers of Christ What are you quite without shame Are you so greedy of filthy lucre that you do not care how much you manifest your shame and uncover your nakedness to all people If you keep a Flock eat the Milk the Flock will give you if you plant a Vinyard eat the fruit the Vinyard will yeild you should you covet your Neighbours goods and take them away because you say he is a Heretick Should you rob your Neighbours vinyard because you cannot have fruit enough to satisfie your covetous desires out of that you have planted Should you go reap your Neighbours field because where you have sown there is little come up but briars and thorns If you do thus may not we yea all people count you greedy of filthy lucre covetous persons and robbers Would you have better come up then you sow They that preach the Gospel lives of the Gospel and they never did nor need petition the powers of the Earth to establish a Livelyhood upon them but you smell much of Popery in this thing and you have no example in the holy Scriptures to justifie you but the Romish black Train is your example and therefore we deny you and cannot but count of you as you are and in so doing we wrong you not But have not you wrong'd us and falsly accused us and charged us to be like or one with those whose example you are found in and whose steps you follow to wit false Prophets false Teachers Popish Priests and Jesuits You shall bear your own Judgement Sixthly Concerning your Doctrine Practices Places and manner of Worship Are you not found and do we nor find you in the popish Doctrine and Jesuitical practices and popish Mass-Houses and in the manner of their Worship in some things and in some other things of later invention which the Scriptures doth not own nor justifie neither did the Ministers of Christ allow of If so may vve not count you such as do not deny the popish vvayes places and manners but lives in them and by them Is it not a popish Doctrine and practice to oppose the light within wherewith Christ hath enlightened every man that is come into the World and to teach some other way to attain the knowledge of God besides the light which shines in the heart notwithstanding the Scripture testifies that the light which shines in the heart must give man the knowledge of God in the face of Jesus Christ And is it not the papists doctrine and practice to deny Revelation and Inspiration and the immediate power of God present now as of old and is not this your Doctrine and practice also Doth not the Scripture say or is it not written That there is none that knows the Father but the Son and he to whom the Son reveals him So do not the papists herein and you with them deny that the knowledge of God is attainable seeing you deny the way wherein the manner how the thing by which he is known seen and revealed to wit the light within and if God be not known onely and alone by the revelation of Christ and you and the papists deny revelation and say it is ceased then by what means do you expect to attain the knowledge of God which is life eternal And how do you that deny Inspiration and immediate power from God believe the Scriptures wherein is promised many glorious things to be enjoyed by the children of the Lord as the pouring forth of his spirit upon his sons daughters and how do you own the New Covenant the fear in the heart and the Spirit of the Lord in the inward parts and you that deny the immediate voice power and presence of the Lord as of old how do you believe Christs words who said to his Disciples Lo I will be with you to the end of the world and is not the presence of Christ the immediate power of God and where two or three are gathered together in his Name is he not in the midst and is not he and his Father one whose abode is with his people But is not this too wonderful for Hirelings without a meaning And why do you talk of the Scriptures for your Rule Is it not for ends to yourselves Doth the Scriptures your pretended Rule justifie you any more then they justifie the Pope Cardinals Bishops Jesuits Fryers Monks and popish priests VVhy do you talk of three persons or Trinity Hath not the Pope learnt you that also Doth the Scripture speake anywhere of three persons And where had you that word Sacrament and the word merit Had you not these from the papists And concerning your places wherein you commonly perform your publike VVorship who founded and named them for you Did not the papists as St. Mary Magdalens Church St. Thomas his Church St. Stephen's Church St. Peter's Church St. Paul's Church Did not the very same spirit that was cast out of Mary Magdalen and that stoned Stephen and that murthered Peter and Paul build and give Names to those Steeple-houses which you have suffered if not taught the people to call Churches and the Houses of God insomuch
January and the twelfth Month February Now do you not prefer the Heathenish and Popish Traditions Rules Customs Manners and Writings before and above what is delivered prescribed and taught in the Writings of the holy men of God so that it is come to pass by your so doing that if people are brought to call daies and months and times and places and persons according as those did who had the spirit of God which the Scriptures teacheth and witnesseth unto I say When people are brought to this they become a hissing and a wonder among you and are counted nice and frivolous and unmannerly and when we speak and write of hours dayes and months as they are recorded in the Scripture people cannot tell what we mean nor how to understand us nor when such a time hour day or month is but will rather mock and jeer at first hour first day first month c. and will have no such reckoning of times in their temporal civil or spiritual Accompts these are your Auditors your Disciples or Schollars as you have learnt you teach as you the Priests are so are the people imitators of the Papists and Heathen in this as well as other things and the Christians life words manners and behaviour you are out of and strangers to and may we not justly with the Heathen and Papists compare you whose example you follow And then concerning the manner of your publike Divine Worship as you call it have you not this manner and custom as the first part of your Worship to sing David's Psalms in rime and meeter divised or turned thereinto by Poets or Musicianers as Thomas Sternhold and John Hopkins and others with apt Notes to sing them withall before your prayer and after your Prayer before your Sermon and after your Sermon of all the people together Is not this your own invention Was there any such manner of singing in the Church of Christ You say Let us sing to the praise and glory of God and you keep an Officer to read the Psalm to people which are some drunkards some covetous some proud some defrauders of their Brethren dissemblers double dealers some Adulterers and unclean persons some jesters and idle talkers some light and vain wild and wanton some scornful high-minded and mockers some disobedient to Parents unthankful and unholy and of rude unchristian behaviour Of such consisteth your Church and are not the Steeplehouse-singers such And can such persons sing to the praise and glory of God Or are they in a state and condition fit to sing at all Doth not weeping and howling mourning sorrow and lamentation and wo from the dreadful Lord God of Heaven and of Earth belong to such singers Singing with Grace in the heart unto the Lord we own but singing with wickedness with pride and covetousness in the heart we utterly deny Singing with the Spirit and with understanding we own but your singing by Letter with Musical Notes and Tunes customarily ignorantly without understanding we wholly disown and bear our testimony against it as abomination in the sight of the Lord and it was never ordained nor appointed in nor by the true Church but it hath been ordained and appointed by the false Church the Whore and her Merchants in the dark night of Apostacy since the dayes of the Apostles and since the true Church fled in to the Wilderness And is not this singing of David's Prayers Mournings Sighings Complainings and Cryes unto the Lord and his Praises Rejoicings and magnifying the Lord and such like conditions as David was in I say Is not your singing of these things like the Papists singing have you any more rule in the Scripture for your singing then the Papists have for their singing And hath it not been one of the Whores later invention and addition to your Worship even about the time of Queen Elizabeths reign in this Nation but the same pure eternal light which appeared in the hearts of some about the beginning of our English Wars and manifested much of the Popish Trumpery which was then in being of which quiristers and singing-boys in white Surplices was one I say the same pure eternal light hath manifested your singing and noise to be as abominable in the ears of the Lord as theirs and to be denyed and witnessed against for you have no more rule in the Scripture for your singing David's Prayers then the quiresters and singers then had to sing the Prayer which Christ taught his Disciples which they called Pater Noster Which of all you Mass-house Singers are or ever were what you sing as when you sing O Lord I am no● puft in mind and that your eys are not scornful Are you not of such a proud and hard heart and puft up mind and scornful eyes many of you that you will scarce look upon nor walk with nor relieve those that are poor though they be of your own Church Then do you not sing a lye in this And is that to the praise and glory of God Surely you dare not say that God is glorified with a noise of lyes not that David's Psalms are lyes but you being not in the same state condition and life that David was in they are lyes in your mouths David said Mine eys gush out with Rivers of water because they keep not thy law I am afflicted ready to dye from my youth up while I suffer thy terrors I am d●stracted I am like a Bottle in the smoak I am like an Owle in the desert I am like a Pellican in the Wilderness I am like a Sparrow alone upon the house top all my friends and acquaintance hath forsaken me This David said and you sing these words ignorantly customarily never witnessing the same state condition so they are lyes in your mouths and God is not glorified but dishonored by you in this part of your Worship and your singing and the Papists and quiristers and Surplice-boys singing is abomination alike in the sight of the Lord and in the sight of his servants who are redeemed from amongst you and from under the great Whore which sits upon the Waters but the Lord our God is taking her seat from under her and into the pit she with her golden Cup full of Sorceries Witchcrafts and Fornications shall fall and none shall be able to deliver her neither can she save her self nor those that hath been and still are made drunk with her Sorceries and deceiveable ways of unrighteousness of which this trick craft and art of singing is one James said Is any merry let him sing Psalms He wrote these words to Saints but hear what he wrote to such as you Cleanse your hands ye sinners and purifie your hearts ye double-minded be afflicted and mourn and weep let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy into heaviness Such as these hath no cause to be merry who are sinners whose hands are uncleansed and whose hearts are unpurified and whose minds are double And
can neither prove that you are so neither doth your fruits and works prove it but the contrary is manifest And whereas you further said The gift of the holy spirit is not sufficient to make a Minister This is also your ignorance for as I said they also have receiv'd the spirit have received the fruits thereof and the Apostle saith As every one hath received the gift of the spirit so he may administer of the same to another who have received the spirit of Christ they are Christs and if any man have not that spirit such are none of his but how full of confusion are you I cannot but mind you of it Some time you say the Spirit is not necessary to the Ministry and again you say The spirit alone is not sufficient to make a Minister and here is Babylons stuff Confusion brought forth by you her Merchants and such as these hath deceived the souls of men one saying one thing and others another and thus is your kingdom divided and that is a sign that it cannot stand but it must fall when the kingdoms of this World becomes the Kingdom of Christ And whereas you affirmed One may be called into the Ministry by Christ and yet at the same time be under the power of the Devil and the self-same man at the very same time may be a Disciple of Christ and yet a Devil Ans. I cannot but mind you of your ignorance and return your words to you again For a man that is under the power of the Devil he is the servant of the Devil and not Christs servant and that man that is a Disciple of Christ and learns of him is a child of God and not of the Devil for the Devil is out of truth and so are all that are under his power but the Disciple of Christ is in the truth and learns of Christ who is truth and though you would seem to prove these things by Judas Peter yet as for Judas he turned from Christ and against him and the Devil entered into him and he lost the power of God and erred from it and then he was a Devil and a betrayer of the just but whilst he followed Christ and was faithful in his Ministry he was not a Devil Neither was Peter Satan he that was Christ's Disciple but he that savoured the things that was of man and not the things of God and he that denied Christ he was the Satan for the Disciple of Christ and Satan are two and not one they are contrary and not the same though you in your ignorance would make them one but ye know not of what spirit ye are of nor whose work you are doing And whereas you held it forth That you had the fruits of the spirit because you shew forth faith and repentance therefore c. Now I did and do deny that you shew forth faith and repentance for your Works doth manifest the contrary And to prove that you have repentante you say you detest all sin and therefore c. Now this I did and do deny again and do assert the contrary and thus I prove it Whosoever breaks the commands of Christ and acts those things which he cryed wo against those things which the holy Prophets cryed against they do not detest all sin but thus you do to wit you that profess your selves to be Ministers you act those things which Christ forbad which the holy Prophets cryed against therefore you do not detest all sin and so have not the fruits and marks of the Holy Ghost upon you that you act these things that Christ forbad and which the Prophets cryed against it is plainly manifest Christ forbad his Ministers to be called of men Masters but you are called Masters Christ cryed wo against them that loved the uppermost Rooms and the chief Seats greetings in the Markets and these things are you guilty of And the holy Prophets cryed against them that preached for hire and divined for money and against them that fed themselves with the fat and clothed themselves with the Wool and did not feed the flock and these things you are guilty of and thus it is manifest you do not detest all sin but lives in it for in the fruits and works of the flesh you do abound in pride and covetousness in wrath and bitterness and in many other things whereby it is clearly manifest that you have not your own noted signs of the holy spirit upon you and so we cannot own you but must deny you to be the Ministers of Christ And as for your carriages and proceedings at that Dispute they were not agreeing with the spirit of truth for you were wild and vain and scornful which practices becomes not Christs Ministers And why did you run so soon away Why had not you longer patience for the tryal of all things Were you afraid to be discovered and that your shame should have appeared Were you hit upon your sore which made you fling away so suddenly that you could not abide any longer Many things more I had to have spoken if you had not left us in that manner which a shame unto your selves and to your companie who used such wildness and violence and laid violent hands upon me thrusting me forth and threatning of us with Constables and these things ought not to have been nor had you been Ministers of Christ would they have been but your fruits makes you manifest and by your fruits we know you as Christ hath told us for your fruits are the fruits of unrighteousness and not the fruits of the holy Spirit of the Lord which fruits are pure and peaceable but your fruits are otherwise to wit the fruits of the spirit of this world that lies in wickedness And whereas you accused us to be Jesuites or such like these were your false accusations and we see you to be nearer to agreement with the Jesuites then we are and the Church of Rome is your Mother from her you have descended in your Call and in your Maintenance and in the most part of your worship and practices therefore come let 's reason with you Had not you the Professed Ministers of England this way of making Ministers at Schools and Colledges by natural learning from the Church of Rome Was not she the first that instituted these Colledges gave the maintenance to them and gave all these names to Schollers as Batchellour of Arts and Master of Arts Batchellour of Divinity and such like names which yet remains amongst you the originall of which came from the Church of Rome and was first set up in England by the Whores Authority Did these things come from the Church of Christ or was there such names amongst Christs true Ministers or have not you received these things and wayes from the Whore and drunken her cup this way of making ministers have you had from the Whore of Rome and from whence had you this
way of maintenance in your ministry by Tithes and gleab-lands and Easter reckonings and so much a year out of your Parish did not all this proceed out of the Church of Rome and was not in the day of the Apostles nor practised by Christs ministers but from the Whore you have had this also this way of being maintained and suing people at the Law for your Tithes and for your money Christs ministers never did thus but the Churh of Rome hath been the originall of all these things and practises and from whence had you this practice of sprinkling infants and calling it the Baptisme into the faith and into the visible church did not this come from Rome and have not you received it from thence if there was any such Institution or Practice amongst the Apostles prove it by Scripture else we will not believe you but must tell you the originall of this came from Rome and you have drunken the Whores cup and been made drunk thereby so now when we examine you throughly in your wayes and practices we find you agreeing with the Jesuites in many things and while you accuse others your selves are guilty and now people begins to see your shame and you cannot hide it for the witness is risen in people and the seed of God is coming forth which tramples over and treads down the false church and all her false ordinances and institutions and her cup must be broken to pieces and she shall no more make the Nations drunk and as for you false ministers though you pray and preach and cry against Heresie and Error and would beg Laws to suppresse it as ye say yet your selves are found guilty of the error and you want the spirit of truth to guide you and your own hearts are not cleansed and then how can you cleanse others and that which you call error and heresie is truth for your judgements are corrupted and your eye is blind and what you know you know naturally and not by the teachings of the spirit of God but by Traditions and by the words of other men without you and the holy anointing in your own selves you know not for you have not received it And whereas you queried whether the Scriptures were the word of God and the rule of life I do now answer The Scriptures were given forth by the spirit of God and are the words of God the word was in them that gave them forth and Christ is that word and the Scriptures testifie of him the Scriptures are not the rule of life but the spirit that gave them forth that is the rule to the children of God for as many as are the sons of God are led by the spirit of God and them that walk according to that rule of the spirit peace is upon them and so it is the spirit of God that gave forth the Scriptures that is the rule of life and not the Scriptures yet where the spirit is the rule it leadeth up according to the Scriptures in the fulfilling of them and as for ye hypocrites who do profess the Scriptures to be your rule and yet walks contrary to the Scriptures your own rule condemns you and out of your own mouths will the Lord judge you Is the Scripture your rule to preach for hire and to have so much a year for preaching and if any will not pay them to sue them at the Law and take their goods by violence and to cast their bodies into prison this is the practice of many ministers in this nation but what rule in all the Scripture have you for these things or vvhat example saving from the false Prophets false Apostles and vvhat rule have you in all the Scriptures for sprinkling of infants and calling it Baptisme into the faith and what rule have you to take Tithes and are not you hypocrites to professe the Scriptures to be your rule and yet act these things which the Scripture neither gives Commandment nor example for but the rather bears witness against but who hath the spirit and walks by that rule sees you and judges you who are out of the life of the Scriptures in the life that is contrary and with the spirit of God are you reproved in all your wayes of darknesse and error And whereas you queried concerning the light within we do say that Christ the second A●am lighteneth all mankind that be come into the world and this light John bare witness of and it shined in darkness and the darkness comprehended it not and that was it that enlightened every man that cometh into the world and this light brings all to receive Christ that doth believe and they that believe not this light is their condemnation and though you stumble at this stumbling stone as your Fathers the Jews did yet unto us that do believe Christ the light of the world is precious and all that comes to the knowledge of God must come to the true knowledge by the light that shines 〈…〉 hearts for it is the light that shines in the heart that gives the knowledge of God and although you wise builders do stumble at the foundation yet it will break you to pieces and confound you utterly for the light is risen in the hearts of many which light gives them the knowledge of God and the knowledge of you and all your false wayes of error and brings men to depart from them all and to follow the Lord in righteousness and so every man is lightened that they may believe and they that believe and walk in the light shall be saved but they that believe not but hate the light shall be condemned and this is their condemnation that light is come into the world and into their hearts and as for you you are but shallow men for you want the knowledge of God and truth stands over you though you oppose it and it will grow to a Mountain where all the Righteous shall be refreshed and the Lord is begun to work in the earth he hath set his hand to pull down Babylon and there shall not one stone be left upon another and all her Merchandise shall fail and her strong holds shall be broken down and all her Merchants shall howl and lament therefore now consider it ye Leaders of the people the day of the visitation is now but it will suddenly be shut up with the night of darkness upon you and you will be wounded and you can never be healed you will be ruined and can never be revived This is from a lover of your Souls EDWARD BURROUGH Something after AND now you Priests the black Clergy of England who count your selves Orthodox men sound able Ministers of the Gospell of Christ know and consider and let it be known to and considred by all people that we slander you not nor do you no wrong in disowning you to be the Ministers of Christ and in comparing you to the black bloody Popish trait your