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A81741 The northern subscribers plea, vindicated from the exceptions laid against it by the non-subscribing ministers of Lancashire and Cheshire, and re-inforced by J. Drew. Published according to order. Drew, John, fl. 1649-1651. 1651 (1651) Wing D2165; Thomason E638_11; ESTC R206635 62,703 75

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is as to the persons comming in and sustaining it unjustifiable as it is Hab. 1.12 then it cannot make the Text pregnant to our purpose Answer We neither say that the word makes the Text full and pregnant to our purpose the Scripture indeed we say is so nor doe we deny but our present powers may be ordained for judgement and ‖ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. Euseb praepar Evangel li. 8. established for correction Lord saith the Prophet thou hast ordained them the Chaldean powers for judgement this Text therefore confirmes what we have to prove viz. That the Powers in being over any people are Gods Ordinance though they may be as most commonly they are both attained unto as to mans agency and sustained unjustifiably thus they have not dis-favoured our argument at all by this septuagint-allegation After this velitation anent the word Ordained they come to a proposition of ours which they say we formed out of it viz. In what ever series of events God manifests his speciall concurrence or appearing that cause he ownes and authorizeth mans Agency in it This they deny But before wee joyne issue wee must needs gratifie them with some what which they would faine know from us by the way and it is this why we call the powerful working of God unto events flowing from the efficacious decree his speciall concurrence or appearing after wee had thus paraphrased the words the Powers that be are ordained of God as the first and cheife cause of all Beings but all Beings are not by his speciall concurrence Answer All those beings we speak of are viz. All positive futuritions determined by him and well pleasing to him Is it another contradiction to say the cheife cause of all Beings may both generally and specially concur to the production of the same event When we looke back unto the years of the right hand of the most high God and consider what great things he has done in England Ireland and Scotland and by what means we conclude thus Not by might nor by power but by the spirit of the Lord and cry grace grace to them intituling the special out-goings Isa 41.15 and unbareings of his holy arme to these effects wherein he made the worme Jacob a threshing instrument with teeth to beat the mountaines like chaffe every work morally good all the gracious actings of his Saints and Servants are drawne forth and his creatures inabled to them by a twofold divine concourse Twist vindic Gratiae li. digres or assistance the one Phisicall the other supernaturall but that we shall make use of in this debate is onely the speciall exertions of his divine power and the might of his arme unto naturall effects with his generall providence in the support of instruments these signall and observable exercions of his might in weake meanes we call his speciall appearings or efficiency Now to the businesse We must needs tel them they do us wrong in assuming that for the sinews of our argument which neither the argument it selfe nor our judgements any way befriend viz. That Gods efficatious decree and hand in powerfull working is conversant or operative in no humaine affaires or actions but what are in man lawfull or agreeable to the rule of Gods word and therefore this elaborate digression of theirs touching the Metaphisicall derivation of all Actions and Beings with their morall state and qualifications and touching Gods agency in all the affaires and actings of men without the least ‖ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Synes tincture of sinne might have wel been spared we acknowledge with them that if the present power over us have no more from God then a Metaphisicall existence or a naturall existence or a natural power and production by his concourse or co-operation with second causes it is dis-owned by him with abomination wee plead not Gods ordinary workings but his speciall appearings in favour of our present Authority as by our above mentioned proposition appeares though they would cajole it to speake their sence who make no distinction betwixt Gods ordinary operations and those workings of his which are marvellous in al mens eyes Surely Sirs you may acknowledge some kind of language in Gods lifting up of his arme to a wonder as well as the Psalmist does in all the works of his fingers day unto day uttereth speech and night unto night telleth knowledge there is no speech nor language where their voyce is not heard Saith David and if his wonders upon earth speake any thing it is the might of that God whose workes they are and his favour towards that people on whose behalfe and that cause in which they are wrought Hath God essayed saith Moses to goe and take him a Nation from the middest of a Nation by temptations by signes and by wonders and by war and by a mighty hand according to all that the Lord did for you and what followes because he loved thy Fathers therefore he chose their seed after them and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt Moses argues from the great things God did for that people to his owning of them as about seven year agoe these Ministers at least some of them made no bones to do when God shewed us any great salvation or gave us any notable victory over the late Kings forces though now the same presence of God with our Councells and Armys speaks nothing at all yet we confesse this Plea of Gods mighty workings towards a people would be very weak if it went alone but we plead the Law and Testimony for Gods owning our present Authority and their cause as the witnesse beyond exception His workes we mention in the second place as a good comment upon the word only Having thus righted our selves we need say little to their needlesse and exhojudiciall digression only it seemes strange to us that they should insinuate as if our present Powers derived from God only as a Metaphysicall entity when as his giving a Kingdome into any mens hands imports clearly another thing viz. Gods making them Rulers which in so doing he ownes notwithstanding he may dis-owne their interests in grasping of power and the sinfull or indirect courses whereby they may become possest of it It creates us not any carefull thoughts that in taking their leave of our second Medium they call our Paraphrase or glosse on Rom. 13.1 a wide one unlesse they could make it appeare we restraine Gods Ordination of the Powers that are to Divine concourse we have shewed that our Powers are from God by way of Authorization and that his disposall of the Kingdome into their hands conferring thereby his right unto them has made the Authority lawfull in the Subjects wherein it rests let us see now how it fares with our third Medium Their third Medium say
that will conclude from this Medium say these Cunctators must tarry a while longer even till the end be seene and the winding up of Providence c. God hath taken time to visite the iniquities of them that hate him to the third and fourth Generation Answ The text saith God is a jealous God visiting the iniquity of the Fathers upon the Children unto the third and fourth Generation of them that hate him Here is nothing about his taking time to punish this Scripture speakes forth Gods just resolution to protract his Visitations to posterity not to suspend or withhold them from the first Generation he will begin with the sinfull Fathers according to his Oath and that betimes to Bloudy and deceitfull men shall not live out halfe their dayes Psal 55.23 Behold the righteous shall be recompenced in the earth much more the wicked and the sinner Prov. 11.31 What meane ye that ye use this Proverb concerning the Land of Israel saying the Fathers have eaten sower grapes and the Childrens teeth are set on edge As I live saith the Lord God ye shall not have occasion any more to use this Proverb in Israel behold all soules are mine as the soule of the Father so also the soule of the Childe is mine the soule that sinneth it shall dye Ezek. 18.2 3 4. Againe Glorying and boasting of an outward happinesse and successefulnesse is the usuall effect which such prosperity hath upon a wicked heart this is another of their documents to us or rather a charge breathed indirectly upon those in power over us as if successe had fly-blowne their spirits with pride and wrought them to unseemly glorying it is true Providence may be wrested to the support and strengthening of men in evil waies so may the Word of God but those who feare the Lord make not this use of either for our parts we are as shie and jealous of opening providences without the key of the Word and as fearefull of inconsequentiall deductions from them or of abusing them as those are who seeme to account them most sacred and could we judge the Parliament or Army which here they strike at to be haters of God or men counter-working his great designe in these latter dayes did we heare them boast of their hearts desire or the glory of their successes and atchievements otherwise then in humility to the prayses of the most high God we should looke to have the wheele brought over them and that soone for a short worke will the Lord make upon the face of the earth we should thinke that he had lift them up to cast them downe but if they continue to exercise that dependance upon God they have hitherto profest to doe and pursue those ends which they hold out to the World in their appeales to the Majesty of Heaven we are confident that the winding up of Providence will be more comfortable to them then the beginning has been and that they shall have the thankes of that very people whose curses and reproaches they lye under at this day and had we only Providences for the bottome of our perswasions we might in likelihood change our mindes as the people of Melita did Act. 28. but we have a sure word of Prophesie by which examining and trying their state and agency in the worke of this season we conclude that these and these Providences are the issue of former promises and though God carry them back yet that their cause shall goe forward till such a top stone be laid upon it as the people of God shal cry Grace unto and now let us see how our second argument for engageing is dealt withall The mutuall relation of protection and Allegiance presseth us to an owning and realliance with them our present Powers as our actuall Protectours every benefit requiring some duty Our argument proceeds in these termes these Non-subscribers deny that protection and allegiance are propter or secundum else relatives we can scarcely guesse at what they here meane considering what they grant by and by Magistracy and Allegiance indeed they say are Relatives but protection in actu exercito is not simul natura with Allegiance and in actu signato is separable from Magistracy so that they cannot be said properly to be Relata Ans We shall not breake with our Brethren for a Logicall notion supposing they have found a flaw in our Logick we doe not rixari de lana caprina fight for Goats Wooll and in case our expression makes but way for our Conceptions into the mindes of men we use not vervecum in patria crassóque sub aëre in the coasts where we live to subtelize our notions we presume from what they here yeeld that our proposition is Theologically true we grant say they in some sort a relation and so a mutuall connectednesse betwixt Protection and Allegiance this connectednesse serves our turnes fully He is the Minister of God to thee for good saith the Apostle WHEREFORE ye must needs be subject c. and FOR THIS CAVSE pay you tribute also render THEREFORE to all their dues c. Rom. 13.5 6 7. So that had not they granted this relation we should have forc'd it But in accommodating this their generall deliberative to the businesse they strive to husband their Allegiance due from them by reason of this acknowledged connectednesse to our present rulers forcing it by a set of niggardly distinctions in Stillicidia into syllabicall and wary concessions such as is the protection say they such onely can the Allegiance be required to be now the protection is or may be deemed 1 But voluntary supposing the power to be intruded into not lawfully possest and not of Magistraticall duty we say this exception as to our case vanisheth upon our proving the powers that are to be Gods Ordinance furnished and instructed with rule and dominion or Magistratical Authority which we have done already in its place 2 But actuall not fixed or settled it being as we suppose without any Basis of a regular vocation to it Answer 1 By actuall wee guesse that they meane temporary and if they scruple not temporary allegiance we conceive it may come off as conscionably from them (b) Nusquam nunquam licet quod semper ubique non licet Tertul. de Specta all the while they receive protection 2 For the Basis of a regular vocation they suppose our Rulers have none and we on the other side suppose they have such a call as may satisfie the submitting consciences if they mean by a regular cal such a cal as our Parliaments ab initio used to have unto their supream trust we conceive they have it but if they mean such a cal as is every way incorrupt and compleat in all circumstantiall requisites Pind. and formalities 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 such a call as few Magistrates soveraign ones at least have among any people on the earth lastly such a call as no man can except