Selected quad for the lemma: spirit_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
spirit_n	ghost_n	holy_a	understand_v	6,901	5	6.3105	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A63393	The Quakers rounds, or, A Faithful account of a large discourse between a party of them called Quakers viz. William Fisher and Edward Burroughs, &c with Mr. Philip Taverner, Mr. Richard Goodgroom, and Mr. M. Hall, ministers of the Gospel ... / published by William Taverner, preacher of the Word.	W. F. (William Fisher); Burrough, Edward, 1634-1662.	1658 (1658)	Wing T248; ESTC R31011	28,134	41

in opposion to Justification by works according to the law Rom. 4.2.3 And this was before Abraham had ever a Child which will clearely appear if you consult the Scriptures So that Abraham was justified by faith before he went to offer up his son Isaac he was before that act of obedience a justified person therefore not justified hereby but onely declared to be a true beleever his faith was hereby clearely manifest and no more can be drawn from this of the Apostle James if we do seriously weigh ver 18 19 20. and compare what followes with these going before And here ended this confused dispute about Justification in which point it is feared by some that those called Quakers if all of the same mind with E. B. and. W. F. have a Pope in their belly if so I heartily wish the Lord would shew them their errour recover their feet out of the snare and deliver them from the delusion I have since this Dispute met with a Book called A Standard lift up for all People The Author this E. B. there are three passages which I took notice of in it relating to JUSTIFICATION I. PAge 3. Chap. 1. towards the end of the Chapter it is said God Justifieth the Righteous and condemneth the Wicked If by justifying be meant Gods owning approving and accepting the Righteous and that the same God doth not accept but disown the Wicked in their wickedness then is it a Truth of the same stamp with that Psal 5.4 5. But if by justifying be meant that of absolving and acquiting from guilt and condemnation which is that the Apostle so often cals Justification how will it agree with that in Rom. 4.5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly c. II. Page 11. Chap. 8. It is the new man that is justified not the old If by justifying be meant as before Gods owning and accepting with delight so it is true God accepts owns and delights in nothing but the new Creature in us for what is after the will of the flesh or the old man in us is the object of his loathing and shall be destroyed But if by justifying be meant in the second sence an acquitting and absolving the sinner from guilt and condemnation then how can the new man which never sinned be said to be justified vix from sin or to be acquitted from guilt and condemnation which it was never under III. Page 11. Chap. 8. lin 3. And such as are taught by Christ and guided by him in all the wayes of Truth and Righteousness are justified by him and none else not in any word or work whatsoever but in what they are led to fulfil by him What strange contradiction in the two last clauses as if what they are led to fulfil by him were not a work And here again If by being justified in what they are led to fulfil by Christ be only meant a being accepted and owned of God in the thing done It is granted that God accepts of nothing from us but what is the work of his own Spirit and Grace in us but if by being justified in what they are led to fulfil by him be meant that Justification which himself cals lin 11. of this Chapter A being cleared from condemnation in the sight of God What could the Pope himself have spoken more plain for effecting Justification by inherent Righteousness or the work of the Law wrought in us For what can that clause in what they are led to fulfil by him relate to but a conformity to the righteous holy and good Law of God And if this be our Justification to what purpose was the death of Christ For a perfect conformity to the Law of God in our own persons though not wrought in our own strength but in the strength and power of Grace the Spirit working all in us and for us is no other than the Righteousness of the Law And as to this Point ye cannot be ignorant of what the Apostle saith If Righteousness be by the Law then Christ dyed in vain Gal. 2.21 Several other Passages I have taken notice of in in this Book some contradictory others dark and doubtful as to what is the Authors aim in them PAge 4. Chap. 2. And this Christ Jesus the Son of God is the light and life of the World and hath enlightned all mankind every one that cometh into the world is lighted by him with the true light of life or condemnation And page 22. Christ Jesus the second Adam lighteth every man and all mankind that cometh into the World with the true light How do these agree with that Page 25. Chap. 19. Mans state in the first Adam in transgression is a state of perfect enmity against God and Death reigns in every man and he is possessed with blindness ignorance and unbelief c I say how do these agree unless there be granted a general restauration of all men which yet you seem to deny in Page 10. Chap. 6. where you acknowledge some to be in a state unreconciled to God and having no part nor portion in these things which belong to their peace Page 10. lin 1. Many profess them in words what others enjoy of these things but have not felt in themselves the working of the eternal Spirit neither have the witness in themselves of being restored again From this latter clause a twofold question ariseth for your words speak not forth your meaning clearly 1. Whether none are restored again but those that have the witness in themselves Or secondly Whether all are restored but some want the witness of this in themselves which you mean is doubtful Page 10. Chap. 7. in the three last lines This Religion and Worship stands in Christ Jesus the second Adam who hath lighted every man that comes into the World that all men through him might believe c. Hence this question ariseth Whether that light which is in all and every particular man is sufficient without any thing farther of speciall grace superadded to bring up every man to beleeve in Christ unto salvation or to beleeve in God by meanes of Christ 1 Pet. 1.20 Pag. 5. Chap. 3. This is the testimony of the Spirit of God and it leadeth into all truth and out of all evill all that are guided by it and it is given to be the guide and rule of life to the Children of God Whence this question for in these things he speakes darkely and doubtfully Whether the Spirit is so given to be the guide and rule of life to the Saints that they have no more need to attend upon the Scriptures Chap. 19. After many other things it follows pag. 28. towards the end And the light of Christ in every one shall give testimony to it unto which I do onely commend my self and these truths to be witnessed Can these be wittnesses to you and of the truth in you who are as you say Pag. 6. Chap. 4. ignorant of the life power and wisedome of the Creatour to leade guide and preserve them following the counsell of their own heart which is evill altogether c. or can such judge between light and darkness between truth and falsehood who are possessed with blindness igorance and unbeleife and wholly imperfect to receive the things of Gods kingdom or to act any thing for God acceptable to him pag. 25. Chap. 19. Pag. 17. Chap. 13. It is truely said That the word of God was in the heart and mouth of the servant of God and that from it they spake forth the Scriptures and then followes As they were moved by the holy ghost through the eternal Spirit Do you make the Holy Ghost and eternall Spirit two or what do you mean by Holy Ghost it is indeed a usuall word among us though there be little to bear up the use of it more then long custome but by Holy Ghost we mean the holy and eternall Spirit what you mean wants an interpreter to find out and make known who seeme to make them two because you say by the holy Ghost through the eternall Spirit Pag. 10. Chap. 7. This is true religion c. where is given forth the same description of true Religion for substance with that of the Apostle James 1.26.27 and towards the end of the page it is said This is acceptable and well pleasing to God above all words and outward conformity and set times and dayes and observances c. This is subscribed to as honest and true and yet may a snake lie in this grasse The question therefore offers it self viz. Whether a doing the greater things of the law is acceptable where the lesse are neglected when it is said I will have mery not sacrifice or mercy rather then sacrifice which is the meaning God did not so require mercy as wholly to take off from Sacrifice onely hereby is declared that God prefers that before this which is true unto this day God requires to speake the truth and do the truth in all things to do unto all men as a man would be done unto to love God with all our heart and our neghbour as our selves c. But hence will not follow an abolition of all institute Worship consisting in the use of such Ordinances which Christ hath appointed and which were in use among the Saints in the primitive times God indeed prefers the former before this but stil requires us to mind according to that of Christ These things ye ought to have done and not to leave the other undone FINIS

mentioned 2 Pet. 1.19 We have also a more sure word of the Prophets c. The Apostle Peter cals that which the Prophets spake and writ the Word ye will not I hope say the word of man but the word of God in the mouth and writings of the Prophets E. B. The Scripture is that a man may carry up and down with him in his hand or pocket but so he cannot the word yea if the Scripture be the word then I may say I have the word of God in my hand lifting up his Book to the people that all might see it then I may say I have Christ in my hand and I have the Spirit in my hand I have Life and Death Heaven and Hell in my hand c. R. G. You have that in your hand which declares all these these were R. G. words not as some have said you have the thing signified but you have that which Declares all these E. B. So I say this Scripture Declares those things it is a Declaration of the Word but is not it self the Word P. T. It is not the Essentiall word but the Declarative word of God wherein the mind will and counsell of God concerning us is made known E. B. The Word was before any Scripture was given for they were given many years after the creation of the world and some of them at one time some at another but the word was from eternity P. T. Those Doctrins of divine and heavenly truth recorded and delivered to us in the Scriptures were the things of the Spirit of God before committed to writing and remaine the same in this day of the Scriptures and shall be the same when the Scripture viz. the writing shall be no more but this doth not at all contradict what hath been asserted viz. that the thing written is this word of God the mind will and counsell of God given forth to us in writing which we are to own and follow as a Rule to us in all our wayes E. B. I pray all take notice what I say The Scriptures are but writing and therefore cannot be the Word of God the writing is not the Word but the thing written of P. T. You have been sufficiently answered already but you will receive none onely go your Round in a circle We do not affirm that the ABC c. or that words of the Scripture as they consist and are made up of Letters and syllables are the Word of God but that which is exprest by these The Spirit makes use of these words consisting of letters and syllables to speak to us as we are able to bear and to understand and that which is here written viz the mind and meaning of the Spirit exprest in these words in this writing or Scripture is that we call and own the word of God or the things of the Spirit of God Declared and given forth to us in writing The second thing debated was concering Justification which took up neare two hours time wherein I spake little by reason I could fully close with neither party In which discourse words were multiplyed and especially by them called Quakers who would oft-times speak two or three successively giving way to none other I thing I may truely say that I never spent so long time in hearing spirituall things spoken to with lesse profit whatsoever it was to others it was to me a most wearisome and unprofitable Discourse which I shall leave till the last and then give a breife hint of it The third thing laid down formerly by E. B. for Doctrine and now objected against by R. G. was III. That evill motions not consented to were not sin And what plain contradiction is here to own them evill and yet not sin unlesse consented to If evill motions then are they a deviation from the holy righteous and good law of God and consequently unrighteousness and the Apostle tells us All unrighteousness is sin 1 Iohn 5.17 Bellarmine layes it down more subtilly for it is one of his Doctrines when he sayes concupiscence is not sin unless consented to but to grant them evill motions and yet deny them to be sin till consent be given who can be so dull sighted as not to see a plain contradiction in such a position if evil in their own nature how can they be called otherwise then sin even before consented to if neither evil nor sin how can consent make them sin E. B. Thou hast not laid down my words right according to my meaning R. G. They are the very same words I heard you deliver without any alteration W. F. We say that temptations are not sin or transgressions unless consented to Mr. Hall of Colbrook in Middlesex do you speak of temptations from without or such which have their rise from within and out of a mans own heart E. B. I said then and say the same now that temptations unto sin are not sin without consent For the Devill tempted Christ who yet did no sin because he consented not to the temptation R. G. You now speak of temptations which are from without and from the Devil which we grant are not our sin unless consented to but our question is according to what you seemed to own in your discourse whether evil thoughts and motions which are from within and rise out of the heart are not sin unless consented to W. F. Dost thou grant no difference between thoughts and motions R. G. Those motions to sin which arise out of a mans own heart have ever the thoughts going along with them and whether consented to or no Salomon tells us the thought of folly is sin E. B. I say motions to sin are not sin without consent R. G. Such motions which arise out of a mans own heart E. B. Yea Such motions R. G. And take along with you all your own words viz. Evill motions arising out of a mans own heart are not sin unless consented to And what is a contradiction if this be not evil motions and yet not sin our consent makes them more sinful but cannot make them to be sin if they were not such before E. B. They are not my sin although evill in themselves unless I consent R. G. whose sin are they then W. F. They are not his sin unless he consents Ye know the Apostles words It is no more I that do it but sin that dwells in me Rom. 7.20 Mr. Hall Who is that Me in whom sin is found was it not Paul and who is that Him in whom sin dwells is it not Edward Burroughs W. F. Ye see according to the Apostle it is not he that doth it but sin that dwelleth in him Mr. Hall In the Apostle was flesh found as well as spirit and these two were contrary maintaining war one against another the Apostle being the person or subject in whom were both found And while E. B. sayes it is not I but sin that dwels in me Who is the Me in whom

what the Scripture affirms He that doth righteousness is righteous even as he is righteous 1 Iohn 3.7 R. G. He that doth righteousness is righteous as he viz. Christ is righteous in likeness but not in measure Christ was perfectly righteous and without sin but the most righteous among the sons of men have yet imperfection and sin in them W. F. Hearken to the form of wholesome words Blessed are the undefiled in the way who walk in the law of the Lord blessed are they that keep his testimonies and that seek him with the whole heart they also do no iniquity they walk in his wayes Psal 119.1 2 3. they do no iniquity therefore perfect and do not commit sin R. G. They do no iniquity allowedly as owning and approving the wayes of unrighteousness they follow not the course of the wicked who commit all uncleanness with greediness nor lie in wickedness as the rest of the world yet are they not perfect without sin but find oft-times cause to complain with the Apostle what I would that I do not but what I hate that do I Rom. 7.15 E. B. That there have been such who were perfect without sin appeares from that testimony which Christ gave of Nathaniel Behold a true Isrealite in whom is no guile Iohn 1.47 in whom is no guile therefore a man in whom was no sin R. G. It will not follow that he was wholly without sin because a man in whom was no guile These words of Christ prove him to be no hypocrite but a plain upright hearted Isrealite yet do not grant him a perfect man without all sin E. B. It is said in whom is no guile and if no guile were found in him then he was perfect P. T. He was perfect with that perfection which is called sincerity and upright-heartedness but not perfect according to that two-fold perfection in either part of it which we spake of in the beginning And here one of the company attempting to prove that Nathaniel sinned after this accounting him one of that number spoken of Mat. 26.56 Then all the Disciples forsook him and fled W. F. asked if Nathaniel were one of the twelve it was answered in hast yea one of the twelve and although presently corrected by saying he was one of the Disciples and followers of Christ yet here W. F. catched at that word one of the twelve made a great stirre about this slip of the tongue saying Thou hast been reasoning and standing out all this day against God and his truth and God hath now left thee to thy self to shew thy own nakedness with more of the like sort clearely manifesting to what I was able to judge a great Spirit of selfishness and bewraying much imperfection while he contended for perfection P. T. You will make a man an offender for a word while your selves are found in the same guilt who affirme that it was meant of the twelve when it is said then all the Disciples forsook him and fled whereas Judas one of the twelve had before this forsaken and gone away from Christ being now one of those who came with that great multitude to take him so that there were but eleven of whom it is said then all the Disciples viz. the eleven that were with him forsook him and fled and so this proof came to nothing though I beleeve it is more then they can prove that there were no more then meerly the eleven with Christ at that time when he was taken by those that came along with Judas but I will trouble the reader no farther with this E. B. We read of a hundred forty and foure thousand who stood with the Lambe upon mount Sion Rev. 14.1 and of these it is said ver 5. In their mouth was found no guile for they were without fault before the throne of God If without fault then perfect and without sin R. G. These were without guile as not being hypocrites but sincere and upright-hearted towards God and their perfection as to a being faultless before the throne of God is to be understood in point of Justification not Sanctification all truly beleeving in Christ are perfectly Justified though not perfectly Sanctified in this life E. B. I will prove it yet further from that of the Apostle As he is so are we in this world 1 Iohn 4.17 If as Christ is so are we who then can deny but we are perfect without sin for so was Christ P. T. Shall this Text decide the Controversie at lest will you hear some other speak beside your self E. B. I will yet ad a further proof from that 1 John 3.9 He that is born of God sinneth not What can be spoken more plain P. T. Have you yet done that I may have leave at last to speak a word E. B. We will hear thee P. T. I shall then begin with your last Text He that is born of God sinneth not we find in the same Chapt. vers 8. He that commits sin is of the Devil and between these two is a wide difference 1. He that is born of God sinneth not after the same rate as those who are of the Devil he chuses not the way of sin nor yields up himself a servant to unrighteousness There is a Law in his members rebelling yet can say with the Apostle I delight in the Law of God after the inward man Rom. 7.22 His fals are weakness not wilfulness which is true of every Christian while he is as we may say truly himself and not under a temptation David in the matter of Vriah ran very far yea sinned presumtuously and wilfully and with premeditation but it was at this time an hour of darkness upon him he was now under temptation and therefore acts not like a child of God as at other times A Christian while under a cloud of temptation is not indeed himself neither can we at such a time judge of him or his estate 2. He sins not that sin which is unto death spoken of Chap. 5.16 Christ cals it blasphemy against the holy Spirit which shall never have forgiveness Mark 3.29 He that is born of God sinneth not this sin but as the Apostle speaks vers 18. He that is begotten of God keepeth himself and that wicked one toucheth him not 3. Which I conceive is more directly the meaning of the Apostle in this Text He that is born of God sinneth not that is so far as born of God that which is born of God or the new creature in him doth not sin so far as he is acted by the pure principle of light and life in him the Spirit of truth received he doth not commit sin the Spirit leads forth to nothing but what is righteous and good the flesh to nothing but what is evil and sinful Rom. 7.17 18. To your former Text As he is viz. Christ so are we in this world I answer it cannot be understood in the full latitude of it that as Christ is so are we