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A41319 An answer to Mr. Thomas Grantham's book, called, A dialogue between the Baptist and the Presbyterian by Martin Finch. Finch, Martin, 1628?-1698. 1691 (1691) Wing F942; ESTC R7436 100,803 186

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have no power to do good works pleasing and acceptable unto God without the Grace of God preventing us that we may have a good Will and working with us when we have that good Will Article 32. None can come to Christ unless it be given to him and unless the Father draw him and all Men are not so drawn by the Father that they may come unto the Son neither is there such a sufficient measure of Grace vouchsafed unto every Man whereby he is enabled to come unto everlasting Life Article 33. All Gods Elect are in their time inseparably united unto Christ by the effectual and vital influence of the Holy Ghost derived from him as from the Head unto every true Member of his Mystical Body and being thus made one with Christ they are truly regenerated and made partakers of him and all his benefits Article 38. A True Lively Justifying Faith and the Sanctifying Spirit of God is not extinguished nor vanisheth away in the Regenerate either finally or totally I have cited these Articles to shew this Author and others of his mind that there is no cause for any to fly out against the Assembly of Divines or any Presbyterians for what they hold about Election and Reprobation and such points as if it had been some new Doctrine that they had broached but every one may now see that next to the Scriptures they learnt this Doctrine of the Episcopal Divines that were before them 2. Let us consider the Doctrine it self 1. Concerning the Doctrine of Election let us see what this Author saith page 27. 1. That God did choose in Christ unto Salvation all that part of the fallen race of Mankind that dye in their Innocency or accept of his Mercy and Grace according to the means he gives them and this Decree proceeds from his own goodness and is not built upon any goodness in the Creature 1. He saith that God did choose in Christ to Salvation all that part of the fallen Race of Adam that dye in their Innocency 1. I Answer 1. This Author quotes not one Scripture for this strange Assertion 2. I wonder who they are of the fallen Race of Mankind that can dye in their Innocency I suppose he means young Infants those that dye in their Infancy But though those be called Innocent comparatively yet besides the guilt of Adams Sin which is upon every one of his Posterity by Nature as a consequent of it all have lost the Image of God in Holiness and Righteousness and have contracted by Adams fall such an Universal Depravedness that they have the Root the Spawn and Seed of all Sin in them Psal 51.5 Behold I was shapen in Iniquity and in Sin did my Mother conceive me This Corruption of Nature is inherent in every one that comes by Adam in a way of ordinary Generation So that not one is born without it It comes by propagation from Adam and if a Child dye the first day it is born into the World it doth not dye in Innocency but if it be saved it is washed and made white in the Blood of the Lamb and hath the habit and principle of Grace infused into it though without outward means God that formeth the Spirit the Rational Soul that the Infant hath can form Grace in the Soul of the Child as he pleases can Sanctifie it in the Womb or as soon as it is born if he be graciously pleased so to do But how doth the Infant dye in Innocency Alas there is an Universal depravedness in the Soul of an Infant which if it live to be capable to express it will discover it self A young Cub of a Fox or Wolf doth not presently discover its ravenous Nature but it is inherent in it bred with it and Men kill those young Cubs though they never yet did any mischief because it is their Nature to be Ravenous and Mischievous An Infant hath the same reasonable Soul that it hath if it live to be a Man though it doth not express it self as it doth when it lives to Age. So an Infant hath the Seed of all Sin a corrupt Nature though it doth not Act as it doth when Age comes on and I say that God may for the Guilt of Adams Sin and because there is such Enmity Rebellion and Wickedness in Mans Nature against him he may if he please glorifie his Justice upon them though they dye in their Infancy they are far from dying in Innocency I do not think God would have destroyed the old World and called them the World of the Ungodly amongst whom no doubt there were many Infants and destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and made them suffer the Vengeance of Eternal Fire amongst whom no doubt there were many Infants if every Infant were Innocent I will not meddle to determine the Eternal Estate of those that dye in Infancy to be sure you go too far to assert what you do you are not the Soveraign Lord and Judge of all 3. You say that God did choose those that accept of his Grace and Mercy according to the means he gives them 1. I hope you mean his Grace and Mercy in Christ that they know him and believe in him for else there is no Salvation If the Gospel be hid if Christ as Mediator be not some ways made known to Men they are lost for ever 2 Cor. 4.3 He that believeth on the Son hath Life and he that believeth not on the Son hath not Life But you seem to hold that 't is not of necessity to Salvation to know Christ and him Crucified as Mediator but to have some general Notions of Universal Grace and Mercy in the Divine Essence which Men do own and accept of and truly you say that few knew the Mediator by the Name of Jesus Christ till he was born of the Virgin page 21. That is nothing to the purpose all that were saved knew the Mediator as the Seed of the Woman that was to break the Serpents Head Gen. 3.15 As he that was to offer himself a Sacrifice for Sin and therefore God taught them to offer Sacrifices presently after the fall by which they looked to Christ that was to come Jacob called him Shiloah the Saviour the Peace-maker that was to come Job called him his Redeemer All that ever were saved before Christ came were saved not by meer believing that God was Mercifull and Gracious But that he would send his Son to dye to be a Sacrifice for Sin And they embraced the promise of Christ the only Mediator and Sacrifice for Sin that was to come And all that are saved since our Saviours coming do in some measure know and believe in Jesus Christ that dyed without the Gate of Jerusalem You will leave us a strange Creed if you leave out the promised Messiah and that it is not necessary to believe in him to everlasting Lise Ay but you say the Turks themselves begin almost every Chapter in their Alcoran with these words In
another Sir Recollect your self I cannot remember that ever I saw your face more than three times in my Life before I saw you lately in Norwich The first time I saw you was upon the Road on Horseback I met a Friend upon the High-way that you were travelling with I saluted him and he told me your name and so after a few words you went your way and I mine The second time was about fifteen years since going to see a Neighbour that lay Bed-rid he was one of your way but I think a Godly Man and I visited him several times in Love you was there and we had two Hours Discourse and all about Controversies The third time was about eight Years since you came into a Friends House where I was upon a Journey and stayed about an hour This was all our acquaintance and as for our being Neighbours it is true that in some sence all are our Neighbors but I suppose you and I liv'd twenty Miles Distant though I am not certain where you lived for as you never were at mine House in Lincolnshire so I never was at yours What a poor business is it that the World should be troubled about our Acquaintance and Neighbourhood Sir though you and I differ in several points of Religion yet I love all Men and though I do not desire intimacy with any Man that is of a Contentious Spirit I love Peace and Quietness yet if you please to let me know when you are in any want you shall find that not only my self will relieve you but that I shall get others of my Friends to Minister unto you otherwise I do not desire Acquaintance with you whilst you are so violent and abusive Then you say that some of my Jacobs have called you Rogue and wisht that you were put out of the Town I am sorry that you should use such passionate Speeches as to call any persons my Jacobs and as to calling you Rogue I hope none of the Congregation that I belong to ever used such unseemly words of you for my part I have always spoke of you in Company with good Respect till you put forth the Book I love to speak the best I can of every Man Q. 4. You tell me that in pag. 19. God chose us so many and no more I pray who are those us whom you call us surely you speak of the Living I answer Let the Reader hear with Patience what is said Pag. 19. the words are these This is especially applied to the Father in Scripture to choose us before the Foundation of the World to foreknow us to predestinate us to be conformable to the Image of his Son therefore in that Scripture 1 Pet. 1.2 where you have the proper and distinct Work of Father Son and Holy Ghost about the Vessels of Mercy the Apostle saith We are Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father through Sanctification of the Spirit unto Obedience and sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus Christ observe here our Election is ascribed to God the Father he chose us so many and no more this Man and not the other Jacob and not Esau then you have the proper work of the Son in those words the sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus Christ it is he who washeth us from our Sins in his own Blood he purchaseth all good things the second Person in the Trinity He is the Lord our Righteousness he is the Propitiation for our Sins he is our Mediator it is not the Father that is Mediator nor the Holy Ghost but the Son it is he that took upon him our Nature it was the Word that was made Flesh not the Father nor the Holy Ghost it was the Son that died upon the Cross for our Sins not the Father nor the Holy Ghost then you have the special Work of the Holy Ghost about our Sanctification in these words through Sanctification of the Spirit unto Obedience It is the Holy Ghost who in our Conversion doth Sanctifie us and bring us to the Obedience of Faith he applieth Redemption as the Son hath wrought Redemption when the appointed time when the fulness of time is come to call home an Elect Vessel he convinceth the Soul of Sin he revealeth Christ to the Soul he infuseth the Habit of Grace and after Conversion is with us to mortifie our Corruptions comfort us and lead us and to carry us to the Heavenly Kingdom Now What Cause had this Author to say Who are these Vs Surely you speak of the Living I answer I speak as the Scripture speaks in those Texts that I have mentioned of all the Elect of all the Redeemed of all that are or shall be sanctified and how strange and captious is it for this Author to go on and say You have good Thoughts of your self for you must be one of the Vs And shew me how many and no more or at least name One to make good the Word Vs and prove by the Word of God that You Two were undoubtedly chosen to Salvation Surely this Author was not in frame when he wrote thus this is just like a Woman scolding and quarrelling in the Streets I am heartily sorry for him Qu. 5. and 6. Are both about the same thing about Jacob and Esau Now concerning Jacob and Esau note 1. That Esau was not saved appears by Heb. 12.15 Lest there be any Fornicator or profane Person as Esau who for one Morsel of Meat sold his Birth-right This Observation may give much Light into this Matter that when any that were real Saints under the Old Testament are spoken of in the New Testament all their sinful Failings are covered and their Grace only mentioned So it is with Abraham Sarah Job Sampson Lot though they had many sinful Failings yet I say they are covered in the New Testament and their Faith Patience and Holiness only mentioned Or if there be an hint of their sinful Failings as of Rahab and Elijah there is mention also of their Faith and Prayer and the Grace of God bestowed upon them But when Esau comes to be mentioned in the New Testament the Holy Ghost leaves him upon Record that he was a profane Person 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 one that despised set light by and contemned holy things So that let it be observed that Esau after he had been so long dead is in the New Testament where the sinful Failings of the Saints of the Old Testament are covered is left under this black Character that he was a profane Person 2. As to what is said Rom. 9.13 As it is written Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated let it be observed that the Apostle in that Chapter from the Beginning to the End is not treating about outward things but about spiritual things and to shew them that amongst them that enjoy Church State and Church-Privileges and Ordinances some are from Eternity elected to Salvation of God's mere Grace and others are passed by And the Apostle
go When Job's Substance was stolen by the Sabeans and Chaldeans and his Servants slain Job worshipped and said The Lord hath given and the Lord hath taken away Chap. 1.20 21. Concerning God's All-governing Providence it is said Eccles 3.14 I know that what God doth it shall be for ever nothing can be put to it nor any thing taken from it And God doth it that Men should fear before him Concerning the Assyrian the great Enemy and Spoiler of Israel it is said Isa 10.5 O Assyrian the Rod of mine Anger and the Staff in their Hand is my Indignation I will send him against an hypocritical Nation Isa 13.16 17. Their Children also shall be dashed in pieces before their Eyes their Houses shall be spoiled and their Wives ravished Behold I will stir up the Medes against them Psal 105.25 He turned their Heart to hate his People and to deal subtilly with his Servants Matth. 6.13 And lead us not into Temptation Prov. 16.4 He hath made all things for himself and the Wicked for the Day of Evil. When Shimei cursed David 2 Sam. 16.10 he said The Lord hath said unto him Curse David Rom. 1.24 God gave them up to Vncleanness through the Lusts of their own Hearts Ver. 26. God gave them up unto vile Affections 2 Thes 2.11 12. And for this Cause God shall send them strong Delusions that they should believe a Lye that they all might be damned who believed not the Truth but had pleasure in Vnrighteousness Though God had a glorious Design in the Death of Christ yet they were wicked Hands that crucified him God's Decrees do not justifie Men's Sins It was a most horrid Act of the Jews to crucifie the Lord of Glory yet Peter saith Act. 1.23 Him being delivered by the determinate Counsel and Fore-knowledge of God ye have taken and by wicked Hands have crucified and slain Act. 4.27 28. For of a truth against thy holy Child Jesus whom thou hast anointed both Herod and Pontius Pilate and the People of Israel were gathered together to do whatsoever thy Hand and thy Counsel determined before to be done The Hand and Counsel of God determined before even from Eternity that Christ should at that very time die as Mediator for his Church and the Jews by their wicked Hands to satisfie their Malice did crucifie him as if he had been a Malefactor O the depth of the Wisdom and Knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his Judgments and his Ways past finding out But of all the Reformed Divines this Author shews most Wrath and Indignation against Calvin who in his Time was a glorious Light in the Church Mr. Richard Hooker that wrote against him about Church-Discipline yet confesseth him to be the wisest Man that ever the Church of France bred And another Episcopal Divine saith He never heard any good Man speak of him without Honour But this Author makes scurrilous Verses of him and directs them too to Calvin himself though he hath been so long dead and compares Calvin to Cain and Michael Servetus to Abel Let us enquire what this Servetus was This Author is much mistaken to think that he was put to death for being of this Author's Judgment about Baptism it was for Blasphemy against the Blessed and Holy Trinity Indeed this Author saith he was a learned and worthy Man though perhaps mistaken in some things pag. 27. Ah Do you put a Perhaps he was mistaken in some things when he denied and blasphemed the Holy Trinity Waving what Sleidan Ross and others say of him let us hear what Dr. Owen in his Answer to the Antitrinitarians and Socinians saith of this Servetus pag. 44. Servetus stuffed all his Discourses with horrid Blasphemies Beza tells us he called the Trinity Tricipitem Cerberum Words not fit to be Englished they are so full of Blasphemy and wrote that Moses was a ridiculous Impostor Beza Epist 1. And there are Passages cited out of his Book of the Trinity which I have not seen that seem to have as much of the Devil in them as ever yet was written or spoken by any of the Sons of Men. If saith he Christ be the Son of God Debuissent ergo dicere quod Deus habebat uxorem quandam spiritualem vel quod solus ipse Masculo-faemineus aut Hermaphroditus simul erat pater mater nam ratio vocabuli non patitur ut quis dicatur sine matre pater Et si Logos Filius erat natus ex patre sine matre dic mihi quomodo peperit eum per ventrem aut per latus To this heighth of Atheism and Blasphemy had Satan wrought up the Man so that I must needs say he is the only Person in the World that I ever heard or read of that ever died upon the Account of Religion in reference to whom the Zeal of them that put him to death may be acquitted Thus he Although this Author thinks that God doth not for the Manifestation of his own Glory over-rule the Children of Men yet it is mamnifest that God hath given him a Spirit of Slumber as a Check and Punishment to him that he should be left of God to desame such a Man as Calvin and extol Servetus an Antitrinitarian and one of the greatest Blasphemers of the for ever Blessed Trinity that ever was in the World By this you have lost all Credit and Esteem with all wise and knowing Christians that Worship the Holy Trinity God the Father God the Son and God the Holy Ghost three Persons and one God to whom be glory for ever CHAP. VII Of the Lords Drawing and Vniting of the Elect to Christ in effectual calling 1. VVHen Arminians have made great flourishes of Gods having the same love of good will to all Adams Posterity they are exceedingly grated with this Objection that follows If God have the same love of good will to all the Children of Adam why are but some saved and not all why doth not God convert all 1. Some of them are ready to say that God cannot Convert them they are so stubborn and rebellious though he desires to do it but this is down-right Blasphemy to say that God cannot convert those whom he purposeth intendeth and desireth to Convert he that made the Heart can change the Heart can turn it as the Rivers of Water which way soever he pleaseth with the greatest facility easilier then we can stir a finger I heard above forty years since an Arminian Preach Mr. H.D. a Man of as great Learning and Ability as most of that way in England this Man was inveighing against Election and special Grace at last he came to answer an Objection to this purpose You will say Is not this a meer beating of the Air a meer flourish of words to tell you that God hath such a Love to all Adams Posterity that he would have them all saved and yet they are not saved suppose saith he that a Mother should say that she had a great Love for