REPLIES Made to the ANTIQUERIES OF Thomas Lye who writes himself Minister of the Gospel at Chard WHEREIN The Parish-Ministers Call and Maintenance and divers other matters now in controversie are handled and debated By H. L. a friend to the people of God called Quakers Yea they are greedy dogs that can never have enough and they are shepherds that cannot understand they all look to their own way every one for his gain from his quarter Isa 56.11 For both Priest and Prophet are prophane yea in my house have I found their wickedness saith the Lord Jer. 23.11 Thus saith the Lord concerning the Prophets that make my people erre that bite with their teeth and cry peace and hee that putteth not into their mouths they even prepare war against him Therefore night shall be unto you that yee shall not have a vision and it shall be dark unto you that yee shall not divine and the Sun shall go down over the Prophets and the day shall bee dark over them Then shall the Seers be ashamed and the Diviners confounded Mic. 3.5,6,7 London Printed for Dan. White at the seven Starrs in Pauls Church-Yard 1657. To the PARISH-TEACHERS OF ENGLAND Friends REfuse not to think upon that day wherein ye must give an account of your doings when not others tongues but your own self-consciences shall be your accusers and witnesses when not a fallible and corrupt minded man but God that cannot erre shall be Judge Then will you not have leave to plead what cunningly may be said but shall what is really known confess Then will no witty gloss deceive nor nice distinction have place Now will ye be pained as a woman in travel and paleness will spread over your faces But when especially shall come to your remembrance those whom ye now do scorn vex and bitterly persecute the harmless holy Lambs of Christ Then alas what will ye do how will yee beare sustain how can yee the presence offered of such a thought as this Now surely will your hearts be pierced as with arrowes and the horrors of death will clasp you round and to dye ye shal wish but death shall flee from you Thus I say will it be with you except ye repent in time H. L. Replies made to certain Antiquaeries propounded by Thomas Lye who stiles himself Minister of the Gâ—spel at Chard c. THomas Lye Answers returned to these Quaeres by one of those Ministers of the Gospel who in scorn are called Parish-Teachers c. section 1 Ans The very beginning of this work is blemish't with an untruth for I did not so call them in scorn but did purposely choose that word as the which I judged less apt to give them cause of distast Yet this is a very meet foundation for that which is afterward built upon it so like they be one to other T.L. To be left at the house of T. B. of Ash who is desired in the fear of God seriously to read and meditate on 1 Joh. 2.19 They went out from us because they were not of us c. section 2 Ans Yes truly they were of you so long as the earthly in them prevailing they could take Tythes c. sprinkle Infants sing David's Psalms in meter and wanton sounds but after that the eye of their understandings was opened and they turned from these Vanities to worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth then went they out from you indeed and ceased to be of your number being taken into a better society even in like sort and for like cause as just Lot with his family went out of wicked Sodom then ready to be seised on with Gods fiery vengeance wholly to be destroyed And now do they stand as so many witnesses against your false Call and manifold deceits and evil practices what they know what they felt in themselves the same do they now against you testifie Add hereunto this also That whiles they were of you they were as so many Lillies among the Thorns for sundry good parts and vertues which are wanting in you whom they left T.L. Whether those whom God hath competently qualified with Ministerial knowledge 1 Tim. 4.6 and utterance Col. 4.3 and who are solemnly set apart to the Office of the Ministry with prayer tasting and imposition of hands Acts 4.23 1 Tim. 4.14 5.22 may be justly charged to run when they are not sent section 3 Answ He that is in darkness himself can badly see how for to turn others to the light and who knoweth not whither himself doth go an ill guide will he certainly prove in shewing the way to others And who knoweth not God * Ipse notipsum himself how can he well teach others to know him And yet such are all they that hate their brother that sin that are not in the New Covenant and such for these causes are you also who are called of men both Ministers and Masters and this is even manifest to the children of light and shall moreover in the progress of these Answers as occasion is offered be openly shewed and declared What prayer and fasting had ye when ye were ordained Ministers and what imposition of hands was not the prayer made by them whose very prayer was an abomination to the Lord and the fasting was it not of them who fast for strife and debate Also the hands imposed upon you then were they of other then a crimson colour as having been stained with the blood of the Saints and Martyrs of Jesus But to what purpose cited the Anti-querist all these Scriptures as though the usurpers of the late devised Ordination were men of the same account gifts and power as were the holy Apostles who were filled with the Holy Ghost who did and spake as they were thereof moved who had the gift of tongue and other miracles these do we know and own But what are your Ordainers Or came at any time the voice of the holy spirit to them saying Seperate ye me such or such a one for the work of the Ministry Also what gift do they give by their laying on of hands which is to be stirred up Is it the spirit of Power of Love and of a sound mind yet such a spirit was received by or with the imposition of the Apostles hands 2 Tim. 1.6,7 see also Acts 8.17 19.6 Moreover the gift mentioned in the fore-cited 1 Tim. 4 14. was so given Timothy by prophesie with the laying on of the hands of the Presbyterie Are also your gifts if any thus received Is the Spirit of Prophesie assisting or conversant in your feat of Ordination Do your Elders at any time declare the truth of their Office and Calling by healing of the sick Iam. 4. And yet was this gift and faculty annexed or incident to the Office of Elders who such were truly and indeed Now seeing these things are not so with them with what kind of impudence then or rather blasphemous arrogance do they
may it be interpreted as the voluntary bound of your malice as is well known section 25 T.L. Shall all those c. Ans The way to heaven is but one and a very narrow one it will at no hand receive the vast and spreading Compass of Tithes Glebe Augmentations together with the love of the world and lusts of the flesh these in no wise can be gotten in the waie 's so strait section 26 T.L. Whether supposing that Timothy followed the command of Paul viz. in meditating on that Word which he was to deliver c. as also in studying in the discharge of his Ministry c. he might therefore be justly charged to speak visions of his own heart Answ Timothy vvas an holy man and holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost 2 Pet. 1.21 Also had Timothy received a gift which was given by Prophesie with the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery 1 Tim. 4.14 and the spirit of power of love and of a sound mind Now dare ye say even he that is most arrogant among ye That such a gift such a spirit as was in Timothy ye also have received The Bee can convert into honey such Juices as she gathereth from Flowers The Spider contrariwise is said to turn the same Juices into poison Pick out the meaning Timothy when he cited the sayings of other holie men wel knevv vvhat he spake his understanding and spirit also being sutable and commensurate with the things he said Neither did his life give his Doctrine the lie section 27 T.L. Whether those that so far slight the Majestie of the great God and his Divine Oracles as upon pretext of immediate inspiration to rush upon them vvithout premeditation c. Answ Suppose ye that they vvho spake as the spirit gave them utterance Acts 2.4 as they were moved by the Holy Ghost 2 Pet. 1.21 in whom the Spirit of the Father did speak without their taking thought how or what to speak Matth. 10.19,20 I say did all these premeditate what they should say and yet vvere they not therefore slighters of the Majestie of the great God and his Divine Oracles as impiouslie this quaery by consequent supposeth them to have been Or think ye that they who were Christs Embassadors did by long premeditation study engender and compose those Messages which as Christs Embassadors they did deliver to others The Woman that speaketh not without taking thought aforehand what and how to speak here duty is not to teach others but her self to learn in silence Go learn what this meaneth section 28 To the following quaery concerning reading quoting and making use for edification the Books of the Prophets Apostles c. I answer That he that is duly called to this honor may take it but unto you thus saith the Lord What have ye to do to take my word into your mouths while ye hate to be reformed Or can ye being evil speak good things Or can ye prophesie when the Spirit of the Lord never resteth upon you It was not for every one to bear the Ark that had a shoulder neither yet is it lawful to every one to say The Lord liveth although he have a tongue and a voluble one too left he be found a transgressor even in speaking that thing which is true because not commanded or nor meetly qualified thereunto section 29 T. L. Whether these quaeries which you sent us were immediately inspired or rather Whether there were not a conspiracie among you for the inventing and penning of them c. Ans The Author of those quaeries pretended not himself to be a Minister of the Gospel but did direct them indeed to such as say they are Ministers and are not but are found lyars Rev. 2.2 Neither was there any the least conspiracie among us for inventing and penning those quaeries neither were they glean'd out of the Papers and Pamphlets of any seducing Leaders Ye thought we were such one 's as your selves but our wayes are not like yours T.L. Whether it be an Argument of covetousness in an humble and orderlie waie to desire opportunitie libertie countenance and maintenance from a Christian Magistrate for the comfortable discharge of our gifts and abilities Answ A Christian Magistrate will readily give opportunity liberty and countenance to the Ministers of Christ for to discharge their Ministerial gifts and abilities though by them never hereunto desired will he forbid or restrain them or else shall he be no Christian Magistrate but rather an Antichristian And as for maintenance that will he also provide them if their heavenly Father as Christ hath promised feed them not Matth 6.26 But friends if ye seek first of all the kingdom of God and the righteousnesse thereof though you never in this humble and orderlie waie desire of the Magistrate food and raiment all these things shall be added unto you But you by not believing the promises of God but seeking after all these things do openlie bewray of what generation ye are for after all these things do the heathen seek Mat. 6.32 And here by the waie I cannot but this observe That you who with such open confidence claim to your selves the glorious titles of Ministers and Embassadors of Christ do yet reckon your selves it effect to be less regarded of God then the very Fowls of the air for these the heavenly Father and not the Magistrate feedeth and rayeth too Matth 6.26 Here also I do require of you to shew any one example in the New-Testement or any thing like an example where the Ministers of Christ did ever once sue the civil Magistrate for any of these things mentioned in the quaery But hereof more hereafter section 31 Obj There is as much equity for a publike maintenance to be allowed to the Ministers of the Gospel now as there was herotofore to the Tribe of Levi under the Law Ans 1 The Levites were forbidden to have any Inheritance among the people Numb 18.25 Ans 2 The tithes under the Law were not onelie for the sustenance of the Tribe of Levi but also of the stranger the fatherlesse and the widow that they might eat and be filled Deut. 26.12.13 Deut. 14.29 So that the store-house for Tythes mentioned Mal. 3 19. had far greater allyance and resemblance to Hospitals and Alms-houses then to the called Ministers Parsonage-Barnes and Places of receit c. An. 3. The man and his house were also to eat of the tythes or the proceed thereof Deut. 14.26 An. 4 The year of tything among the Iews was on the third year Deut. 26.12 Deut. 14.28 An. 5 The Owner of the tythable Lands was to lay up the tythes within his gates Deut 14 28 And not the Levite to carry them Captive into his own private Barnes as now the called Ministers use to do from whence as to the relief of the stranger the fatherlesse and the widow with many of them there is no more return then is redemption
estranged thereunto In these dayes did they make a Calf and offered sacrifice to the Idol and rejoyced in the works of their own hands section 62 T.L. VVhether those extraordinary Officers were not styled Prophets Eph. 4 11. 1 Cor. 12.28 Answ Though all in the Primitive Churches were not Prophets yet was it lawful in those true Churches though forbidden in yours for any man to Prophesie without exception or restraint For thus saith Paul Ye may all prophesie one by one 1. Cor. 14.31 and in Vers 1. he saith Follow after Charity and desire spirituall gifts but rather that ye may prophesy Also Vers 5. I would that ye spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesy Hence it is manifest that Paul permitted any one to prophesy and not only so but secondly also exhorteth them all indifferently to desire the gift of prophesy not the office And thirdly He declares his willingness that they * Declaring himselfe to be of the same mind with Moses who desired that all the Lords people were Prophets all might prophesy c. Now in Vers 3. he explaineth what he meaneth by prophesying namely A speaking unto men to edification exhortation and comfort and this by revelation of the spirit as may be gathered of Vers 30 Let us now erect a comparison between the speaking and order that were in the Churches of Christ of old time and the speaking and order such as it is that are in your meetings at this day 1. In those it was lawful and according to order for All to speak In yours only for One to speak 2. In those they did speak by revelation of God In yours they speak by imagination of their own brain 3. In those they did speak for edification exhortation and comfort of others In yours for Augmentation Decimation and benefit of themselves section 63 T. L. Whether when the Apostle saith that all may prophesy he doth yet suffer a woman to speak in the Church c Ans Ioel Chap. 2. Vers 28 prophesyed that not their sons only but also their daughters should prophesy c. Where To whom Doth not prophesying serve for them which believe 1. Cor 14 22 And if to one believer such prophetesses might rightly prophesy why not also to two to three or more If in a place where these beleivers did or do not usually meet why not likewise in a-place where they usually meet If out of a house why not as well in a house To a Church in a house Philemon 2 Or say ye that the number and place do make and give being to the Church of God Define unto us then how many persons be necessarily required to the making up of a Church and also what place it behoveth to be that with such number must concur to the so making up of a Church section 64 T. L. Whether he doth not also exclude private members from intruding on that great office of prophesying when he demands Are all Teachers c. Ans What private members doth Paul exclude from prophesying when speaking to the Church he saith Ye may all prophesy 1. Cor 14 31 Neither doth he only permitt or rather declare it to be lawfull that all may prophesy but desireth also that they all might have the gift of prophesy Vers 5. And finally exhorteth the whole Church indistinctly that they desire the gift of prophesy as is noted before Agreeable to this mind of Paul was also that of Moses I would saith he that all the Lords people were Prophets and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them Numb 11.29 Where also it is to be noted that though Eldad and Medad had never been counted or acknowledg'd as Prophets but were private members of the Iewish Church yet did they prophesy and that in the Camp not waiting for the triall or approbation of man nor for any Solmn Investiture into the office of Prophets It was sufficient authority to them to prophesy that the spirit of the Lord rested upon them Vers 26. Now Moses when he heard thereof yet not yet by what warrant they prophesied what did he do Verily he set not the rude multitude upon them to beat them pull them tear them neither charged he the civil Officers to apprehend them and carry them away for endlesse Imprisonment None of these things I say did Moses But saith he Enviest thou for my sake would God that all the Lords people were prophets c. It s plain therefore neither Paul nor Moses to have been of your Teachers mind to forbid any to prophesy but as far distant from you herein as in most other matters also as namely becomes the true servants of God with Satans Ministers compared section 65 T. L. How can they i. e. how can they lawfully and as to God acceptably preach except they be sent Rom. 10 15. Ans Apply this place unto your selves Ye Preach for hire and Divine for money ye are not the men that bring glad tidings who deny men may be perfect and free from sin in this life that publish peace who bring along with ye the black Threats of war and manifold miseries against all that will not put into your mouthes Neither do ye publish salvation but keep men ever learning that never come to the knowledge of the truth and the end of faith Understandeth not the Apostle in this place such a Sending as his also was who was not sent of men neither by men but by Jesus Christ And though the operations of the spirit be divers yet do they not all alike proceed from the spirit Did not the same spirit that made heretofore Apostles make Pastors also And dare you that call your selves Pastors of Churches pretend to have received such office and quality immediately of the spirit I have seldome known any of you so impudent Wherefore your operation is not by the same God neither is your gift by the same spirit neither your Administration by the same Lord Jesus 1. Cor. 12.4.5 6. And if no man can say that Jesus is the Lord but by the Holy Ghost How then do you talk whole hours of Jesus without the Holy Ghost But if ye yet challenge to have the Holy Ghost then make it to appeare by shewing the fruits thereof such are love joy peace long-suffering gentlenesse goodnesse faith meeknesse temperance are these things in you or so much as the very shadowes or counterfits thereof rather bring you not forth such fruits as be clean contrary to these Let the spiritual man be judge section 66 T. L. Whether it be not usuall in our Churches to give liberty to severall Ministers to exercise their gifts and discharge their office successively one by one decentlie and in order Ans Ye seem to have propounded this your practice and order as having some resemblance and agreement with the practise and order which Paul did advise to be observed in the Church at Cornith But even in this point do ye greatly differ and swerve