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A14368
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A stronge battery against the idolatrous inuocation of the dead saintes, and against the hauyng or setting up of images in the house of prayer, or in any other place where there is any paril of idolatrye, made dialoguewise by Iohn Veron
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Véron, John, d. 1563.
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1562
(1562)
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STC 24686; ESTC S102670
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105,295
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264
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to their owne reason the glorie of God should better be knowen if god were manyfested and reuealed rather by the liuyng and reasonable creatures than by the vnlyuyng and vnreasonable Wherin they doo woorke great vngodlynesse to their owne destruction Albion I heard ones this place alleadged but answere was made agayne Replye of the aduersaries Aunsvvere to it that Athanasius dyd write against the Gentils and heathen And that therfore this place maketh nothyng against them Philalethes And I say that as these wordes are written against the heathen so may thei be alleaged agaynst them that do bryng in the gentilisme or heathenyshe fashyons And what is seene I praye you in our pictures and ymages besydes the stuffe that they bee made of and shape that is geuen vnto them They say that the forme or shape that is geuen vnto them dooth signifie and teache But I wold fayne knowe of them The ymages do neither teache he learned not yet the vnlearned Ergo they â—e vnprofitable whome their ymages and pictures do teache the learned or the vnlearned I am sure they can not teache the vnlearned onelesse they haue an interpreter behynd them For the vnlearned without a teacher shall neuer bee able to learne what is signified or represented by the ymage of the virgine Mary nor yet by the ymage of the Crucifixe The learned hathe no neede at all to learne of pictures and ymages the same whyche he hathe moste certaynely learned by goddes woorde What shall they bee able to saye to his that the chiefest mysteries of our religion can be expressed with no colours For with what pencelle shall they bee able to expresse the vertue of oure redemption The chiefe misteries of our saluation can not be expressed by anye ymage the glorie of the life to come the imitation of vertues and the obedience of the woorde Lette vs therefore contente oure selues wyth the moste trewe Teacher I meane the holy ghost which doth teach vs with the worde of lyfe and with the Sacramentes ordeyned by the eternall wysedome of god Wherby all thinges perteining to our saluation my plainly be sette forthe vnto vs and receaued or vnderstanded of theym that be not voide of the spirite of god Dydimu Yet no answer hath bene made to this their obiection where they say that although it was not lauful in the olde time to expresse God with an ymage bicause he was not yet sene in a humain forme or shape yet sith beyng incarnated he was made lyke vnto vs in all thynges sinne onely beyng excepted it is laufull for to haue an ymage of hym Philalethes Answer to the .32 obiection Dan. c 7. What wyll they say to this place of Daniell The auncient of daies did sytte whose garment was white as snowe and the heares of his head lyke the pure wolle And by and by after As I behelde in visions by nyght beholde one lyke the sonne of man came in the cloudes of heuen and approched vnto the ancient of the dayes and they brought hym before hym Reade ye besides the 33. and fower and thirtie chapiter of Exodus and the sixte chapiter of Esaie In the meane while none of the auncient prophets or of the holy men of god did set vp an ymage vnto the father or vnto the sonne neither did attempt to represente hym by any symilitude or shape made after the lykenesse of man And what other thyng dyd lette them to doo it but the playnenesse of the commandement of God The sonne of god did not take vpoÌ„ him our frayle natâ—re to the ende that he should breake goddes lavve or be painted and the reuerence that they bare vnto it Neither did our sauiour Iesus Christ take vpon hym oure humaine nature for to breake the lawe of God or for to geue vnto paynters a paterne or profe of their arte but for to be the pledge of the grace of GOD of the eternall couenaunt and of the coniunction that is betwixt GOD and vs and that he myghte haue what to offer for vs for the price of our redemption declare what we mortall meÌ„ ought to hope for For therfore did he rise again and dyd carye vp into heauen the body that he toke of vs that we shoulde beleue and be fully persuaded that oure bodies shall ones bee translated and taken vp from this vale of myserye being glorified into the euerlastynge kyngedome of heauen Nowe as muche as the body doothe excell or is better then the shadow so muche doothe the thyng whiche is represented by the signe better than the signe Note this But the flesshe of our sauiour Iesu Christe if it had remained here after the mysterie of oure saluation was fulfilled hadde profited vs nothyng muche lesse shoulde the liniamentes picture or image of the body of our sauior Iesu Christ doo vs any good As touchyng his diuine nature he is coequal and of one substance with the father But Esaie in the .xl. chapiter All nations sayth he before hym are as nothyng and they are counted to hym lesse than nothynge and vanitie To whome then will they like God or what similitude will ye sette vp vnto hym Dydimus Obie 33 I holde my selfe content with this answere But what saye ye to this whiche I hearde but a while ago I was in a place where we entred into disputation concernynge these wordes Idole and Image And there some did affirme that ye do them great wrong in this that ye call their images Idoles Where as there is a greate difference betwixte them For by this word eidole they do vnderstaÌ„d the representation of a thyng that is not but this word Image which sometymes of the Latins is called simulachruÌ„ is the representation of a thyng which is in deede Phila. Answer This am I sure they can not denie but that where soeuer the 70. interpreters haue this word cidolum ydole Hierom dyd translate it simulachruÌ„ an image And in his eleueÌ„th boke of his coÌ„mentaries vpon Esaie Hierome vpon these wordes of Ezechias prayer Thou onely arte the God of all kingdomes Their goddes are no gods but the workes of mens handes wood and stones He did sayeth he boldely pray vnto the Lorde and doothe affirme hym to be the onely lyuyng God Whereby we doo vnderstande that eidoles are the ymages of dead men So farre Hierom. A strong argumente again t the papistes Now will I thus reason with them Are not theyr images the images of dead meÌ„ but eidoles ar the images of dead men therfore their images are but eidols It is plaine thaÌ„ the eidolu â— simulachruÌ„ that is an idol an image be all one thiÌ„g Erasmê° Erasmus in his annotations that he did make vpon the new Testament which worke is so hyghly commended by their holye father pope Leo the tenth writeth on this maner Thomas de Aquino doothe bryng a newe difference betwixt Idâ—lum an ydole and simulachrum an ymage because that an
These thyngs haue been doone among the heathen whose goddes were no gods but deuyls and that by the permission and suffrance of God because of their horrible idolatry that they dyd most shamefully wallow in But it foloweth not that the lyke may be done among the people of God Philalethes Answer It is moste manyfeste and playne that God doth permit and suffer Sathan to worke suche thynges among his people For dothe not God geue vnto false Prophetes power to worke miracles Deute 19. that so he may try and proue his people whether their loue him or not And whether they will stedfastly cleaue vnto his lawes And least it shold be said that this was don amoÌ„g the Iewes but that it is otherwise in the churche of Christ we haue an excellent prophecie of the holy apostle wher he saith on this maner 2. Thes 2 Than shall the wycked man be reuealed whom the Lord shall consume with the spirite of his mouth and shal abolishe with the bryghtnesse of his coÌ„ming eueÌ„ him whose coÌ„miÌ„g is by the woorkyng of Sathan with all power and signes and lying wonders And in all deceauablenesse of vnrightuousnesse emong theim that perishe because they receaued not the loue of the truthe that they myght bee saued And therfore god shal send them strong delusion that they should beleue lyes that all they might be damned whiche beleued not the truth but had pleasure in vnrightuousnesse Do we not lerne by these words of thapostle that in the later days there shall be wonders and signes in the kingdome of Antichriste And doubtlesse There bee vvonders and signes in the kingdome of Antichrist as they are by the rightous iudgement of God ordeined for to deceiue them that haue a delight in vnrightuousnesse so doo they also take away sicknesses and diseases that the vngodly contemners of the truth may the more be blynded and confirmed in their error Are not also these Christes wordes Many shall say to me in that day Lorde haue we not by thy name prophecied he we not by thy name cast out deuils and doone or wrought great miracles And theÌ„ will I confesse to them I neuer knew you Depart ye from me ye workers of iniquitie Mat. 24. And in an other place There saith he shall arise false Christes and false prophetes and shal shewe great signes and wonders so that if it were possible they shoulde deceaue the very elect It doeth sufficiently appeare by this that many times it cometh to passe not onely among the heatheÌ„ and Iewes but also in the chirche of God that by the inuocation of them that are no Goddes not a fewe haue ben and are healed Yet no man ought thervppon to conclude that it is laufull in the time of trouble to call vpon any other than vppon the true lyuyng God all creatures be they neuer so excellent beyng layde asyde Similitude Procreation of children doth not excuse vvhooredome no more doth the vvorking of miracles excuse the idolatrous inuocatioÌ„ of Saincts Eutrepelus I am of this opinion that miracles doo no more excuse the inuocation and worshippyng of Saintes than the conception gettyng or procreation of children can excuse adulterie whoredome although it be a miracle that the child is conceiued in the mothers woÌ„be that there it is norished and fed and at lengthe in his due tyme brought forth into the worlde and suche a myracle as can onely be doone and wrought by the diuine vertue and power of God Likewise he that stealeth bread or meat if he do eate it he shal bothe take away his hunger and also feede his bodye though this vertue and power to feede the body doeth onely perteyne to God Shall we therfore excuse whooredom adulterie and theft Didymus No maÌ„ I trow will be of that mynde Eutrapelus Howe can then the inuocation of Sainces which the whole scripture dooeth disauouche be excused by shewyng or workyng of myracles Therfore when thei say why should we not call vpon the Saintes sithe that many as we se dayly by experieÌ„ce haue ben bothe healed and also deliuered from the perills and dangers that they were in by that meane It is euen as if the horemoÌ„ger shold say Why shuld I not cleaue vnto a harlot sith the I do aswell get childreÌ„ of her as of a laufull wife or as if that these shuld likewise say Why should I toyle or labor sith that by stealyng I can helpe my necessitie nede As then it is not laufull for any man to seke to haue childreÌ„ by adultery and whoredom although meÌ„ may haue issu that way nor yet by pickyng stealing to helpe the necessities of his body althogh many do lyue by theft but it is the part of an honest maÌ„ to seke to haue issue by honest matrimonie wedlock by due labor to get his liuing so it is the dutie of a true christeÌ„ maÌ„ The abolishing of the similitude in what trouble peril or daÌ„ger so euer he be to seke for help deliueraÌ„ce not by the vnlauful calling vpon the dead Saints althogh many haue receaued their helth by it but by the faithful inuocation only of the true lyuing eternall god And as an honest man had lieffer to bee withoute childreÌ„ than to get them in aduoutrie whoredome Similitude and to byte his bread verye nere rather than to lyue by thefte and other vnlaufull meanes so he that feareth God vnfeignedly hath lieffer to suffer any kynde of affliction than to seke for healpe and deliuerance by the forbidden inuocatioÌ„ of dead creatures Albion Wel I graunt that the dead Sainctes ought not to bee called vppon as gods I meane that they ought not to be called vpon as thoughe they their selues should help vs A good Chift of the papistes â–ª in our troubles and aduersities but that wee ought to call vpon them as beyng our mediators aduocates and intercessors which doo make intercession vnto God for vs. Philalethes Where I pray you brother Albion haue ye learned this diuinitie So are we wont always to excuse the want or lacke of faith Whâ— doo we not rather praye vnto God out heauenly Father sith that in so many places he wil haue vs so for to doo Albion Iohn 9. Obie 4. Because we are sinners And ye know what the scripture saith Peccatores noÌ„ andâ—r Deus God heareth not synners but them that are obedient to his will Philalethes That we are sinners we haue that coÌ„mune with al mortall men For Answer 8 King â— 1 Iohn 1. A difference betâ—ixt sinners there is no man that synneth not And if we shold say We haue no sin we deceaue our selues and the truthe is not in vs. But this difference dothe the scriptures puâ—fe betwixte synners that some are always ready to â—â—pâ—nt whensoeuer they be eyther by the outwarde preachyng of Gods word or by the inwarde motion of the holy ghost moued therto and some agayne wyll neuer