not admyt the scripture to be iudge but referre al thynges to theyr interpretation and spiritee Is not this an hygh blasphemie that a sinnefull man shoulde presume to sete hym selfe iudge ouer the word and wyl of god asthough he ought not to bee obedient vnto it excepte he were moued with his owne spiritee and mocion to reiecte or receiue it I harde ones a papiste doctour openly in a disputaciō saie that we whiche teache the gospell dooe teache the truthe and dyd alowe our teachynge veary well but that he coulde not nor durste subscribe vnto it exrepte our teachynge were adprobated and alowed by the bisshoppe of Rome Beholde my Symon what abhominacion is this that a mortall man shulde take vpon hym to adprobate alowe the diuine and heauenly veritee and set hym selfe iudge ouer god Therfore haue I put this conclusion in the forefront because that the Anababtistes doe for y ◠moste parte boast and aduaunce their spirite vnder such pretence deceiuyng the simple and rude people Symon Doeth not Paule teache this that the letter doeth kylle and the spirit viuifieth or doeth quieken ii Corin. iii And Christe doeth saie Ioan. xiiii The spirite shall teache you all truthe It is spoken by the lorde also Hieremy xxxi Euery man shall teache no more his neyghbour saiyng knowe thou the lorde but all shall knowe hym from the lowest to the hyghest Finally Iohn dooeth saie It is no neede that euery man dooe teache you but as the vnction teacheth you of all thinges whiche is true and is no lye What canst thou saye agaynst so manyfeste scriptures Ioiada To the woordes of Paule I aunsweare thus That Paul speaketh there of the lawe whyche kylleth vs as he dooeth declare more apertly in the .vii. chap. to the Romains And by the spirit he vnderstondeth faith and the consolacion or comforte of the gospell That it is so the texte of the whole chapter dooeth testifie Therefore this place helpeth nothyng your errour For whan we speake of the woorde of god we dooe not vnderstonde the bare and deade letter or voyde sonnde of it but the word well and truely vnderstonded and as it is in veary dede And as for that that Chryste dooeth promesse a spyrite vnto his dysciples teachynge them all thynges wee dooe admytte and beleue it But that spyrite can not bee contrarye to Chryste nor teacheth any other thyng than Chryst hath taught Therfore doeth he adde by and by teachyng you what so euer I haue saied vnto you What dooe these thynges perteyne to the spirite of the Anababtistes whiche teacheth contrary thynges to the spirite of Christe The prophecies of Ioel and Hieremye are vnderstonded of that same spirite that Christe dooeth bothe promesse and geue to his disciples as it is euidently sene in the seconde chapiter of the Actes and the eyght to the Hebrues Iohn in his epistell whan he speaketh of the vnctyon dooeth playnely expounde hym selfe saiynge I haue written vnto you that ye bee not deceyued or that ye dooe not suffer your selues to be brought in to errour whyche thyng will then come to passe if ye dooe stedfastely abyde in the doctrine of the spirite whiche ye haue harde at the begynnynge and swarue not at all from it The holy ghoste is the spirite of truthe which canne neither lye nor repugne against hym selfe beyng all waies constaunte vnchaungeable euery where lyke vnto hym selfe Now no man can denaye but that the same euerlastyng vnchaungeable and holy spirite hath inspyred the holy scriptures in to holy mens hertes and myndes Whereby it foloweth necessarily that the same spirite which speaketh agaynste the meanyng of the spirite that dooeth speake and expresse hym selfe in the diuine scriptures is not of god but rather an humaine mayne affection whyche if it bee styffe maie bee deseruyngly called a deauelysshe spyryte as Chryste dooeth proue agaynste the Iues. Iohn viii Or canst thou thynke in thy mynde that spirite to bee good whiche contemneth the cleare manyfeste pure and holy scriptures and when by them he is conuicted of errour doeth boste an other spirite whiche shoulde teache cleane cōtrary thinges Is not this to despise y ◠spirite of y ◠scriptures and to repugne against hym As though our spirit meaneth truely and the spirit of the scriptures most falsely Where haue the Anababtistes learned to set their spirit against y ◠scriptures yea and preferre hym to the holy worde of god Symon But who hath geuen you this libertee to iudge al thynges after the litterall sence or letter Ioiada That we dooe not as thou doest interprete the letter But we saie that the worde of god conteined in the scriptures of the Bible is a touche stone wherby spirites are tried For what spirite so euer doeth agree with the scriptures is of god the father of truthe And agayne what spirite so euer is contrary to the holy scriptures is of the dyuelle the father of lyes Seyng therfore that the spyrite of the Anababtistes wil not bee ruled by the holy scriptures but preferreth hym selfe to the woorde of god callynge by crafte the woorde of god a bare letterre yea and sette set him selfe iudge ouer it he cānot be of god For if he were of god he would come to light and speake that same thyng that the holy ghost doeth speake in al the holy scriptures But now sith y t he doeth not depende of the scriptures but will be at his own lybertie it is a token that it is a craft and subtiltie of the deuell whiche doeth alwayes scatter repugne against god Sy. Thou speakest these thynges mightily and stronglye but withoute the word of god And this is your familier custome to speake many thinges without scriptures As touching the spirite what he techeth I haue brought and alledged places and testimonies oute of the scriptures But that the spirit ought to be tried by scriptures or rather mācipated and bounde vnto them and not be at his own libertie it is thy parte for to proue Or peraduenture thou dost prefer the creature vnto the creatour Ioi What and yf I should say also My spirite hath taught me this thyng What couldest thou do or say vnto me Sym. But that is not to aunswere Ioi Nor ye do not answere sufficiently when ye bost your spirite without or agaynst the scriptures But in this thīg we do learne that whan it pleaseth you ye vse the scriptures agayne whan ye see to be expede ent ye boaste aud aduance your spirit Whan I affirme that the spirite must be tried by the scriptures I doe not mancipate nor subdue the creatour vnto y ◠creature but I will that the thynge whiche is vncertaine be tryed proued by y t which is certaine and that any spirit be tried by the holy spirit of god that is to saie by the scriptures whether he agreeth with hym self or not And if he be like euery where vnto him self to be receiued if not to be refused
reiected as false deceitful But whan ye speake of the spirite ye doe vnderstond a bare creature For your spirit is not the holy ghost but a carnall affection Sy. Ye dooe yet without any scriptures of the Bible enhaunce and magnifie the letter Io. Not so but rather we here ground ourselues bothe vpon y e scriptures of god and vpon examples Sy. Shew therfore y t the truthe muste be tryed by the scriptures not rather w t a fre spirit without scriptures Io. By thy wordes doe I perceine what thinge doeth begile you that is y t ye do seuer these .ii. thinges beyng vnited inuisebly knitted together y t is to saie the spirite the scriptures which can nor ought to be separated asunder the one from y e other For whē we name y e scriptures we doe vnderstande y e expressed worde of y t spirit For as y e voice or sound of y e worde can in no wise be separated from y e lyuely breth of y e liuing creature So y e scriptures can not be diuided from y e spirit y t inspireth thē for y e scripture is y e expressed wil of god but now wil I bryng y e testimonies places w t thou requirest our lord Iesu Christ vnto whom y e heuēly father did geue witnes from heuen who hath receiued the holy ghost after no measure did not despise y e sciptures in so muche that he dyd corroborate all his saiynges by them onely and did commaund that the Iewes should trye both his woordes and factes by the scriptures Ihon. v. and Luke xvi He biddeth them to lyfte vp their eyes to Moyses the prophetes and not to apparaunte spirites He reprouyng also the Saduceis did shewe that this was the cause of their errour be cause that they were ignoraunt in scriptures or neglected them Mark .xii. The Apostles as we may vnderstand by the booke of the Actes did receiue abundātly in the beginyng the holy gost that by a sertaine visible tokē And yet not withstandyng did thei not therfore forsake or contēne y e scriptures nor boste their spirite against thē But rather did proue strengthen all their sermons with the worde of god preachyng nothyng els but the pure and playne scriptures These thynges are euydently proued by the epistels of Peter Iohn doeth plainely shewe and teache that the spirites owght to be tried whether thei bee of god or not .i. Io. iiii Wherby it is euydent enowgh that spirites owght to be tried and that thei be not so free as the Anahabtistes will haue them And how thei muste bee proued it is manifestly declared in y t place Paule whiche was rauisshed in to the thyrde heauen and dyd learne his gospel of Iesu Christ beyng hym selfe the chosen vessel of god full of the holy ghost and heauenly wisedome neuer the lesse before the kyng Agrippa he doeth testify that he dyd teache nothyng beside Moises and the prophetes Act. xxvi In the epistell to the Galathians y e first chapter he saieth thus if I or an angel of heauen shulde preach vnto you any other thīg then ye haue harde let it be anathema or acursed He also warnyng and teachyng Tymothe that be shoulde beware of false and erroneous doctrines dyd directe and sende hym to the redyng of scriptures But reade thou the iii. chapiter of the seconde epistell to Tymothe and it shall appere what we owght to iudge and thynke of the Anababtistes secte what of the spirite and of the scriptures Sy. That place is knowen well enowghe and I am almost persuaded But this vexed my mynde that Paule saieth that a spirituall man iudgeth all thynges but he is iudged of no body Ioiada I longe to knowe of the of what spirite Paule doeth speake there Symon But I haue leauer to heare it of the Ioiada Considre the woordes y t go before For he saieth thus We haue not receiued the spirit of the world but the spirit whiche is of god that we may know what thynges haue ben geuen vnto vs by Chryst Symon But to what purpose did Paul speke here of the holy ghost Ioiada I aske of the wheather y t same selfe spirite dyd not inspyre the scriptures Symon Truely that same selfe spirite Ioiada Seyng therfore that it is all one and bothe the same spirite that Paule speaketh of here and that whiche speaketh in the scriptures haue I not proued that Paule by a spirituall man did not vnderstond hym which boasteth I can not tell what spirite despisyng in the meane season the scriptures but suche a spirituall man as is and will be ruled and gouerned by the holy ghost that waie that he sheweth and expresseth hym selfe in the holy scriptures He therfore that striueth againste the holy scripture and inspiracyon of the holy ghost can not bee that spirituall man whome Paule doeth speke of Now if he be not spirituall he can not iudge but he muste be iudged The Anababtistes therfore can iudge nothyng but ought to bee iudged and tryed by the worde of god Hathe not here the spirite of the Anababtistes lost bothe his win ges But I do remembre other ii places whiche dooe vtterly stoppe the mouthes of the Catababtistes The first is in the .x. chapiter of the Actes touchyng Cornelius the centurion which although he was elected by god yet not withstandyng beyng so tawght by the angell did sende messangers to fetche Peter y t he migh heare by hym the preachīg of our sauiour Iesu christ If that the spirite should disanulle and abolisshe the scriptures it shulde folow y t this outwarde preachyng and such like thinges wer done in vaine The other is in the .xvi. chapiter concernyng the Thessaloniens whiche after that thei had harde the preachyng of Paule dyd daily seke and serche the scriptures to knowe wheather Paule dyd teache true or not Which thing thei wolde not haue done if the spirites shoulde not be tried by the scriptures wherefore what so euer the Anababtistes dooe teache concernyng this thynge is false and erroneous and not vnlike vnto the errour of Montanus Sym. What monstruous thyng is y t Ioiada This Montanus about .xiii. hundred yeres a go was a great heretike who did almost speake of the spirite as the Anababtistes dooe For thei do cal in again the old abolisshed errours as it shall appere hereafter Sym. Go forth I praie y e and let vs discusse the argumentes of the second conclusion For I can not beleue that none of the saynttes whiche thyng thou doest affirme stifly did thruste them selues into the office of common preachers excepte thei were called What other thyng is this but as the bisshop of Rome hath done in times paste to hyde the truthe frome the commons that none saue onely thei that are learned dare speake and talke of it Where as not withstandynge god did manifest him self to the littell ones and not to the wise Mathew xi Ioiada I will doe it
accordyng to the preceptes of the apostle Donatus dyd gather a particuler Church Nonatus lykewyse bothe in Affrica And yet not withstandynge none of theim both was called or sent by god And their Churche also were no Churches but conuenticles or assembles of Heretikes Symon What thynkest thou by the saiyng of s Paule .i. Corin. xiiii where he doth geue free libertie vnto all men to preache or interprete the Scriptures Ioiada I am of the same selfe opinion that Paule is Two or three sayth he may speake in the church Let the other heare and iudge Finally if it be reuelated to an other syttyng by let the other holde his peace And by and by it followeth For ye may al prophecy one after another that all may learne and haue cousolacion Symon By these wordes it appeareth that Paule dothe not geue libertie to euery man to preache what he listeth whē he nameth ii or .iii. and byddeth the other to heare to geue attendance to that that the Prophetes in the newe Testament suche as do expounde the scriptures are called Prophetes do expounde and set furthe out of the scriptures Nor he doth not gyue lysence to the hearers to interrupte the sermons of the Prophetes excepte it be when any thyng is lefte or peruersly expounded by the Prophet or interpretor By this it foloweth that it is not semely ne comely that any mā shuld interrupt if the truthe be sufficiētly enucleated shewed muche lesse that any man shoulde vnder suche pretence and colour sewe in or bring in his errors I doo see perceiue that the effecte of the matter doeth consist in thys thyng If it be necessary if any thyng be omitted and lefte by them that are Prophetes that oughte not to bee omitted or whiche beynge lefte maye dooe harme and agayne which being shewed may edifi the churche that then it may be shewed vnto them by any mā but that with al sobrenesse and charitie If nothing be wanting or lackynge all the audience to holde their ptace Ioiada Thou takest the ryght sense of it For it foloweth by and by The spirite of the Prophetes is subiect to the Prophetes For God is not the auctor of confusiō but of peace The Holy ghost doth not breake furth rashely with affection and stryfe but is treatable nor he dooeth not styffely contende for euery lyght matter but suffereth him self to be instructed and taughte so geueth easely place to him that hathe better vnderstandyng But the Anababtistes are farre from al such thinges boastyng neuerthelesse a spirit but as Iudas did boast his Apostleship sayut Iames dyd not without a cause warne vs saiyng Let not many masters be among you knowynge that we shall receyue greatter dampnaciō or iudgement that is to say we that are teachers Symon But here thou haste brought me into a greter dout For now I aske the Whether of theym two ▪ is greatter the Prophet vnto whom the spirit is subiect or the spirit If thou sayest that man is gretter then the spirite beware that thou doest not attribute to much to a mortall and frayle man If the spirite is hygher how can that thyng which is gretter be subiecte to a thyng that is lesse If so bee that thou preferrest the spirite vnto men agayne wyll haue the saiyng of Paule to be true I do not perceiue by what reason it can stande Or howe can a man be greatter then the Spirite whiche maketh hym a Prophet Ioiada Thou dooest aske righte well this question But it is to be noted that Paul doeth not here take the spirite for the holy ghost whiche is the thyrde persone in trinitie but for the gyfte operacion of the spirite of God The sense and meanyng of this place is therfore that the gyfte of prophecy is so in the power of the Prophet that hath it that he maye bothe speake holde his peace in the congregacion of the sayntes when and as long as it is expedient for the hearers For they are not so instructed and moued with the spirit as mad and phantasticall men are that they shoulde all cryout at once with an vnsemely clamor murmuryng one agaynst another with a debatefull contencion stryfe For so one coulde not vnderstande another The spirite of God is gentle treatable and peasable not stirrynge or mouyng any man to contenciō and debate but to peace and vnytie Wherfore he sayeth ye may Prophecy all one after another To the which exposiciō Theophilactus agreith interpretynge this place after thys maner The spirite that is to say the grace of the holy ghost which is in thee the operacion or workyng that hath inuaded thee is subiecte to the gyfte or grace of another man which is moued to Prophecy that is to say dothe geue place hearing But now if thou be so pleased let vs go aboute the thirde Conclusion Symon I am well content begynne thou The. VI. Treatyse or Dialogue Of the Vnitie of the Churche against the Sectes of the Anabaptistes Ioiada IChynke that thou wylt say nothyng agaynst the thyrd conclusion For what canne be sayde more truly then that Christ and his Apostles dyd alwayes congregate or assemble the Churche and that thei dyd neuer tumultuate or moue sedision for outwarde and temporall thynges Or is there any man that can say the contrarye Symon I wyl shew hym vnto the by by that is to say Christ whiche dothe saye I am come not to bring peace but the swoorde Ioiada Thou dooest writhe and wrest the wordes of Christ For he speaketh nor these wordes of his Churche that they shoulde disagree within themselues as the Anabaptistes do moue tumulte in those churches where Christ and the Gospell is preached sincerely but doth expres the nature of the infidels whiche doo persecute the faythfull For whersoeuer Christ is preched they that are godly do receyue and embrace him gladly and they that are vngodly doo bothe let and persecute Christ and his Disciples Now Christ doth cal this discenciō a sword which sworde is not among the godly in the Churche but the infidels do vse it agaynst them that ar godly Dothe not Esaie say that there is no peace to the vngodly The cognisaunce or badge of them that ar godly is Charitie Peace and Concord Wherfore the Lorde dothe call them that be peasable or loue peace blessed and chyldren of God Mat. v. Symou I do easely graunte that peace and vnitie ought to be in the Church But that Christ and hys Apostles dyd neuer moue sediciō for temporall thynges thou doest affirme it scantly Ioiada yea and truly also or elles shewe thou the contrary Symon In the .xv. chap. of the Actes we do reade that Paule and Barnabas had no small discencion and reasonyng agaynst them which dyd teache Circumsicion Who wyll deny circumcision to be an outwarde thyng Ioiada I vnderstande call outward thynges that dooe helpe nothyng to our saluacion perteining to the body more then to the soule and
which being necessari to the body do in processe of tyme waxe olde waste and consume away suche as be condicion rychesse and grosse elementes of thys worlde But circumcision was not taught by the false prophetes as an outwarde thyng but as a necessary needeful thyng to saluacion which thei dyd very vrgently and instantly persuade that it shoulde bee obserued kepte yea and all the whole law besyde Hereof dyd ryse the disputacion whche is written of in the xv chap. of the Actes Els Paule dyd circumcise Timothie for peace and tranquilitie sake and because that he woulde not offende certayne weake bretherne in the Churche but after that some men dyd vrgently bring in circumcison as necessary Paule dyd greatly repugne woulde not suffer Titus to be circumcized .xvi. of the Actes .ii. Galat. This sedicioÌ„ therfore that thou aledgest here hathe a greatter cause then an outwarde thyng Sy. Howe darest thou call richesse outwarde thinges which do exclude a maÌ„ from the kyngdome of Heauen For Christ sayeth that it is easyer for a camell to go thoroughe the eye of a nydle then for a ryche man to entre into the kyngdome of Heuen Io. We doo know well inoughe the false sighynges and teares of the Crocodyle which these light and inconstant Anababtistes do poure doune daily dispisynge richesse none other wyse then the Foxe dyd in tymes past dispyse the sweete grapes that she could not come by Richesse are by them selues nether good nor euyll but the vse dothe make theim either good or euyll If thyne eye be simple and lyghtsome all the body shal be lyghtsome but if thyne eye be wycked and euyll all thy body shall be darkenesse Mat. vi Therfore if a riche maÌ„ be faithfull and godly the richesse that he hathe be good and that by reason of the good vse If the master or owner of the richesse is vnfaythful or an infidell his richesse are nought Luke .xvi. Such do christ speake of when he bringeth in the similitude of the camell and of the eye of the nedle There wer innumerable bothe in the olde newe Testament whiche in great richesse were called no small frendes of God as Noe Abraham Lot Isaac Iacob Iob Ioseph c. Whiche in the myddest of their rychesse dyd cleaue vnto God with a sincere harte and good fayth Loke what opinioÌ„ Paul hathe of this thyng and what he writeth of it .i. Timoth. vi Therfore I care not what these hipocrites doo bable and prate sith that the richemen may doo good to the poore in Christes Churche whiche occasion they that haue no richesse doo lacke To what purpose or intent doo then these mad braines trouble all the worlde for trifelyng and vnnecessary thyngê I do know sum which if thei had as much as they do lacke thorough their owne negligence and slugherdnesse they woulde fynde by and by a way to iustify their vniust and euyll gotten goodes Sy. I doo let that passe I pray the to proue the seconde conclusion Peraduenture I shall learne somewhat by it Ioiada That Christ dyd neuer cause tumult for outwarde thynges but dyd alwayes study to peace tranquilitie we wyl bring the .xvii. of Mathew where he speaketh to Peter after this maner Lest we do offeÌ„d them that is to say that do receyue the didragme go thy waye to the sea cast in thy hoke and the fyrst fysh that cometh open his mouth thou shalt fynde a stater take it and geue it for the me In the. xxii of Math when he was asked of the yearely tribute that was payed vnto Ceasar he did so fly from tumulte that he dyd iyone bothe god and Ceasar togither biddyng them to pay their duty to eche of them Nor he dyd not condempne them that dyd receyue Nor agayne he dyd not say Blessed are they which doo geue He dyd not say ye owe nothyng by Goddes law but notwithst andyng geue wo be vnto hym that dothe receyue In the .xiii. of Iohn Christ doth so teache hys Disciples I geue you a new coÌ„mauÌ„dement that ye loue eche other as I haue loued you By this shall all men know that ye be my Disciples if ye loue eche other And incontinent in that long sermon that he made vnto his Disciples after his Maundy he doth chefely speake of the Spirite of the faythfull And a lytell afore he shoulde sende his Apostles he dyd saye Peace vnto you as my father hathe sent me so I sende you The .xiiii. chap. Rom. Paule sayeth The kyngdome of God is neyther meate nor drinke but rightousnesse peace and gladnesse in the holy ghost For he that serueth vnto christ in those thyngê is accepted both before GOD and before men Therfore let vs followe that whiche belongeth to peace and edifieng one towarde another In the .i. Cor. i. he dothe exhorte the CorinthiaÌ„s after this maner I beseche you brethren in the name of oure Lorde Ihesu Christ that ye dooe speake all one thyng and that there be no dissencioÌ„s among you but that yee bee one whole bodye of one mynde opinion Let no suche contencioÌ„s be among you that one shoulde say I am Cephas disciple another I am Pauls an other I am Christes Is Christ diuided was Paul crucified for you Or were ye baptised in the name of Paule When ye do say so ar ye not yet carnal Moreouer loke consider what Paul writeth in the xii cha to the Cori. exhortyng them to concorde charitie by the exemple of the body and the lymmes In the .xiiii. he sayeth apartelye that God is not aucthor of discencion but of concorde and peace whiche thyng may be sene in the Churches of the faythfull In the .iiii. to the Ephesians Paule doeth exhort vs to behaue oure selues and walke so as it doeth become the vocacion wherwith we are called with all obeisaunce lowlynesse with gentlenes of hert forbearing eche other thorough charitie and that we shoulde studye to kepe the vnitie of the spirite by the bounde of peace beyng sayth he one body one spirite as yee are called in one hope of your vocacion There is but one Lorde one fayth one Baptisme one God and father of vs all â–ª c. In the â–ª ii chap. to the Philippians with lyke study exhorteth he the faythfull to be of lyke affection to haue betwene them selfes loue charitie to be of lyke mynde lyke iudgement and that nothyng shoulde be doone among them by contencion or vayneglorye But by humilitie lowlynesse of hearte euerye man shoulde thynke an other maÌ„ to be more excellent then he is himself c. Are not these sufficient testimonies Sy. What dooe these thynges agaynste the Anabaptistes Io. Very much for thei proue and shew manifestli that the Anabaptistes be authors of tumulte and sedicion Sy. What is that Ioi That is to say that they against al good ordre and exemple of the Apostles dooe make stryfe contencion in the Churche of Christ
Menander SymoÌ„ should come agayne I thynke they coulde fynde adherentes and disciples syth that the secte of Nouatus of the Catharians is so regarded beleued among many Sy. What do these thingê meane â–ª Ioia That the seyd heretykes dyd teache about .xii. C. yeâ—râ—s ago the same thynges that thou hast nowe brought of the Anababtistes For thei dyd deny all grace and forgeuenes vnto them that were fallen agayne Thei dyd arrogate and take vpon them purenesse or clenlynesse of lyfe They dyd congregate assemble a particuler Churche auoidyng and shuÌ„nyng al coÌ„munion or felowship of synners In the meane season they dyd passe al mortal men in presumptuoâ—snesse and arrogancy in enuy hate â—e â—â— contencion in couetousnesse intemperancy of lyfe But rede thou Ciprian vpon the matter in the .iiii. Epiâ—â—le to Antonianus The Anabaptistes if thou lookest better vpon the 〈…〉 are in all thinges lyke vnto the Catharians and doo teache all one thyng with them Sâ—â—â—â—ctâ— them therefore â–ª For he that agreith with manifest hâ—â—eâ—â—â—â—s is lyuyng condicions conuersacion teachyng can not teche the truthe nor be a rightful maÌ„ Or howe canst thou alow them whom all godly persones dyd alwayes abhorre Sy. I care not for the Catharians nor I know not what the CathariaÌ„s be That I do in this thyng agree with the Anabaptistê the scriptures compell me to do it therfore I do not beleue them but the scriptures Ioia This is that I haue sayde and yet do I repete it that nothing boldeth them so muche in their error as dothe ignoraunce If they had read and tasted the olde histories thei wolde be more modest and sobre and not so presumpâ—â—ous Is not this a miserable and perilous thyng that men beyng so rude and ignoraune in all thynges do take vpon them to be teachers Wherby it cometh to passe that thei corrupt confound subuert al thynges not hauynge the righte vnderstaÌ„dyng of scriptures For that which Paule in the â–ª vi chap. to the Hebrues and Peter in the ii chap. of his second Epist doo write dothe not strengthe nor proue the oppinion of the Anababtistes but that there is no remission for them whiche doo swarue frome the faythe and thorow misbeleue or infidelitie do dispayre of the mercy of god For they doo synne agaynst the holy gost whiche syn is not forgyuen here nor in the worlde to come as Christe teacheth Mat. xii .i. Iohn .v. But my Symon discusse thou and wey the wordes of bothe the Apostles and consider to what purpose they were spoken Truly for this purpose to proue that it is impossible for hym that hath beleued ones perfectly to falle away from his fayth Peter with the other disciples being asked of christ whether thei woulde forsake hym also dyd answere Lord to whom should we go thou hast the wordes of euerlastyng lyfe And we dooe know and beleue that thou art the sonne of the lyuyng God If so be that any man dothe fall cleane from fayth he doth shew manifestly that he had neuer a true fayth They went from vs sayth Iohn but they were not of vs for if they had ben of vs truly they shoulde had remayned with vs. He therfore that swarueth from the knoweÌ„ faith hathe no saluacion But why For Christ is the onely saluacioÌ„ frome whome he doothe falsely swarue and therfore can fynde no other saluacion Thou doest vnderstande I thynke that the falle whereof Paull speaketh is not the fall that doth chauÌ„ce daily by thinfirmitie weakenesse of the flesh in them that are godly but extreme desperacion thorough misbeleue infidelitie wherby a maÌ„ swarueth from God Reade the .vii. viii to the Heb. and thou shalte see that daily remission of synnes is not denyed vnto them that ar fallen agayne For he sayeth also in the .v. cha that Christ is a bisshoppe that can haue compassion of our infirmities vnto whom we must flye hauyng lycence libertie to do it .x. chap. to the Hebrues Sy. In the .xii. chap. Paule teacheth that Esau coulde fynde no place of repentaunce thoughe he dyd seke it with teares Ioia Paule doth not speake in this place of repentaunce and forgyuenesse of synnes but of election and recouering of his first birth which he had lost ones thorough glotony and intemperance and could neuer recouer it agayne though he had assaied proued it with wepynges and teares for Iacob had bought the right of the first borne and had preuented him Wherfore he speaketh nothyng heare of the inwarde remission of sinnes And often tymes thys woorde penaunce is taken in an other significacioÌ„ But the CathariaÌ„s dyd vse the same argumentes in so muche that some weake persons among them that wer godly dyd abhorre suspecte the Epistle to the Hebrues as some do now a dayes the Epi. of saynt Iames. But now I come to the auctoritie of Peter who speaketh after this maner It had ben better for them â–ª not to haue knowen the waye of righteousnesse then after that they haue knowen to tourne from that that was taught them by the holye precepte But that chaunceth vnto theim that is wont to be spoken in a true prouerbe A dogge goynge to his vomittyng or to that which he had vomitted agayne And a washed sow beyng retourned to the myre wallowyng or walteryng If thou considerest well truly these wordes thou shalt fynde that they be spoken of infidelitie and vnfaythfulnesse From the which after that thei wer ones called through faith they dyd fall agayn from God into the fyrst vnfaythfulnesse infidelitie We doo set therfore that infidelitie is condempned euery where Sy. What sayest thou of this that thei do affirm that we liue no more in the flesh Io. The flesh dothe stycke vnto vs to the verye graue For the flesh doth contrary the spirite and agayne the spirite doth repugne agaynste the flesh in so moche that we doo that whiche we woulde not do the Rom. the vii It is therfore great boldenesse to presume boast of that whiche the Apostles dyd neuer presume â—â— boast of For Paule did complain of his flesh which hath more spirite dyd labour more to tame his flesh then all the Anababtistes And yet they dare say that they be not in the flesh For this cause peraduenture because that they be none other thyng but flesh that is to say all carnal drouned in their sensualitie affections Which thyng is manifestly knowen by their lyfe But paul did coÌ„clude all thys whole matter more perfectly more briefly also saiyng I do with my mynde obey and serue vnto the lawe of god but with my flesh vnto the law of synne He doth more at large expounde these thynges in the .viii. Rom. and v. Galat. Where he dothe shewe in fewe wordes â–ª that they which do not feare God nor rare for heauenly thynges but are all earthly do lyue after the flesh And that he walketh in the spirite or after the spirite
y t beleue In y e ii cha to the Ephe. ye ar saued thorow faith not of our owne selues It is the gift of god and cometh not of our dedes or workes For we ar his owne workmāshyp created in Iesu Christ to do good dedes which he hath prepared for vs to walke in in the .iii. to Ti we wer also folyshe disobediente deceaued seruyng to lustes and voluptuousnes liuyng in malice and enuye hatefull or odiouse and hatyng eche other But after y t the goodnes and loue of our sauiour God not accordynge to the dedes of rightwisnes whiche we haue done but accordyng to his mercye had made vs safe by the fountayne of regeneracion and renuynge of the holy ghost whiche he hath poured vpon vs abundantely thorow our sauiour Iesu christ that we beyng iustified by his grace shulde be made heyres of euerlastyng lyfe accordyng to our hope These places are plaine and can not be auoided For thei that speake againste them are no christen men but felowes of the false Apostles against whome Paule writeth callyng them euyll workemen and subuersours of the gospell of Christ And by these wordes not onely the Anababtistes but also all popishe doctours are noted and whosoeuer besyde doo attribute our rightwisnes and saluacion to our dedes workes Sy. I can saie nothing against the manifest veritee But I wold faine know of the in what reputacion thou haste the epistle of Iames and how muche thou doest esteme it Io. And I aske the first what thou thinkest or what oppinion and iudgement thou haste of the afore aledged places and howe strong thou coūtest them to be Sy. Thei are manifest and true and also strong enoughe and dooe attribute saluacion and iustifiyng to faith but Iamis doeth adscribe saluacion to our woorkes and dedes Ioiada What semeth vnto the then is it right y t many places shulde geue the ouer hande to one or one place to many Symon The interpretaciō of one place must bee taken out of many But what dooeth this to the epistle of Iames Ioiada Had the apostles all one learnynge and spirite Symon All one But I asked the touchynge the wordes of Iames. Ioiada I haue had alwaies in singulare reputacion the epistle of Iames and haue alwaies geuen great credit a faith vnto it though it hath ben suspected by Eusebius and other besyde counted lesse apostolicall But if it be Apostolical it foloweth that it hath the same meanyng and spirit that the epistles of Paul haue For this thou hast graūted before that thei had al one learnyng and spirit moreouer that the places whiche I haue aledged out of Paule and doo adscribe saluacion to faythe and not to woorkes are bothe true and stronge Now it foloweth necessarily that it is not the meanynge of Iames that woorkes shoulde iustifye and saue and that therefore this darke place and saiyng of Iames ought to be expounded by many plaine and manifeste testymonyes of Paule Symon What is that Ioiada That is to saie that Iames dooeth not goe about to proue that workes iustifie and that fayth iustifieth not but that faithe without workes is no faithe but an oppiniō and credulitie or light beleue which faith can not saue And y ◠it is sufficient to saluacion to trust leyne vpon this vaine oppinion It is manifest therfore y ◠Iames doeth not take here faith for that true and liuely faithe whiche faith is a gyft of God and renuyng of the mynde and lyfe but for a false oppinion which foolyshe men do call faith with the whyche faythe the diuell beleueth all quakyng and trēblyng but by it he is made neuer the better nor saued Besyde that he vnderstandeth not humaine or bare workes without faithe but faithe workyng effectually thorough charitee and loue Ponder the wordes of saynt Iames and thou shalt perceiue that he proueth there partly that faithe can not bee without workes partly that faith workyng thorough charitee doeth bothe iustifie and saue Therefore Iames dooeth not disagree from Paule but meaneth al one thing with him agreyng both in one spirit and learnyng Sy. Yet it semeth vnto me that our saluacion is adsribed to workes when it is attributed to faythe For if faith can not be without workes nor workes without faith thei must be all one thyng and that which is attributed to one is attributed to the other Ioia Faith and woorkes are almost so one thynge as the godhed and manhead are one persone in Christe And yet it folowed not that the godhed is mortal because that Christ dyed in very dede vpon the crosse Yet notwithstandyng it is all one persone whyche can not be diuided So we maie speake in this busynesse Faith iustifieth Here faith is taken for the election and grace of God and also for the redempcion whiche is not adscribed to our owne workes though thei can not be separated from faith and which folowyng most certainly of faithe are very sure vndoubted signes tokens of faith and election of god For so Paul doeth speake Whom he hath predestinated them dydde he chose whom he hath chosen them did he call whome he hath called them dyd he iustify And Iohn also We knowe that when he shall appere we shall bee lyke vnto hym and euery man that hath this hope doth make him selfe cleane as he is pure .i. Io. iii. In one sonne there is bothe lyght and heate and the one is not from the other Yet notwithstandyng the lightyng or illuminacion is attributed to the lyght and not to the heate and the heatyng or warmenesse is adscribed to the heate and not to the lyght Symon But the scriptures dooe often and in many places adscribe saluacion to oure woorkes and merites Ioiada That is done not because that the worke shoulde bee barely taken by it selfe but as a woorke or dede comyng of faithe wherby that whiche is farthest and chyefest that is to saie faythe maie be manifested and shewed I aske the can a man dooe any good thynge of hym selfe Symon No. For no man is good but god onely Ioiada And Christ saieth in the .xv. of Iohn As boughes can not brynge forthe fruite excepte they remayne stylle in the vine So ye can bryng forthe no fruite excepte ye remayne in me For without me ye can dooe nothynge Now I aske againe who bringeth forth the grapes and the wyne Symon The vine Ioia If god shoulde take awaie his strengthe frome the vyne and shoulde not worke in it that which we dooe see coulde that vine brynge for the wyne Sy. No. Ioiada The chyefe thyng therefore that geueth wyne is not the vyne but God and yet notwithstandyng we dooe adscribe the wyne to the vyne whereas it dooeth onely come of God Symon I can saye nothynge agaynste the truthe Ioiada It is all one reason when the saluacion and euerlastynge lyfe is attributed to oure owne workes where as it cometh of God onely and of gratuitee and free election For