Selected quad for the lemma: spirit_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
spirit_n	ghost_n	holy_a	mind_n	7,027	5	5.7568	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A56660	A friendly debate betwixt two neighbours, the one a conformist, the other a non-conformist about several weighty matters / published for the benefit of this city, by a lover of it, and of pure religion.; Friendly debate between a conformist and a non-conformist	Patrick, Simon, 1626-1707.; Wild, Robert, 1609-1679.	1668 (1668)	Wing P798; ESTC R41393	117,976	250

the Demonstration of the Spirit and of power C. True there is no compare between these But hath your Minister that Demonstration of the Spirit and of Power N. C. Yes sure if ever any man had C. That 's good news for then we shall see that which before we only believed Hath he the gifts of the Holy Gost Can he speak with Tongues and Prophesie and work Miracles and tell us the thoughts of mens hearts N. C. What do you mean C. I mean that which the Apostle Saint Paul meant who had this Demonstration of the Sipirit and of Power which he gave the world to convince them that Jesus was risen from the dead and was made Lord of all whom they were therefore bound to obey N. C. But I mean something else C. Pray tell me what that is Only let me desire you not to use words without the sense belonging to them and to intreat your Minister that he would hereafter forbear to pray to God that he may speak in the Demonstration of the Spirit and of Power for no body now can hope to do it N. C. I mean that he is spiritually enlightned to search the deep things of the Spirit of God which the natural man cannot discern C. I wonder at you that you should not discern the Apostle there speaks of the Holy Ghost i.e. the wonderful Gifts of it in them which ●ssured them of those things that no meer natural Reason could prove I doubt your Minister is not spiritually enlightned because he doth not instruct you better in the Scriptures N. C. Scriptures He never says 〈…〉 but he quotes a place of Scripture for it 〈…〉 Sermons are nothing else whereas you 〈…〉 but Rational Discourses C. I remember I have heard a wise man say that one may talk nothing but Scripture and ye● speak never a wise word And I verily believe it for it is not the Word of God when we mistake its sense as you commonly do N. C. Doth yours do any better C. Yes he seems to me to make it his business to let us into the meaning of the holy Book And he backs his Reason not with phrases snatch'd from thence but with such place as manifestly speak the same sense that he doth N. C. I have heard him sometimes endeavou● to open the Scripture but methinks he doth not do it in a Spiritual way but onely Rationally C. My good Neighbour consider what yo● say Do you think that these two words Spiritua● and Rational are opposed the one to the other If they be then Spiritually is as much as Irrationally and absurdly N. C. No pardon me there I do not think those two are opposite but Carnal Reason is opposite to the Spirit C. To speak properly you should say that Carnal Reason is opposite to Spiritual Reason That is a Reason that is guided by Fleshly lusts ●s opposite to that which is guided by the Gospel of Christ Ns. C. I say as I said before it is opposite to the Spirit C. You must either mean as I do or else that it is opposite to the Gospel which is frequently called the Spirit in Scripture But pray tell me how shall we understand the Gospel by our Reason or by something else Ns C. By the Spirit C. What must we have an immediate Revelation to make us understand its sense or must we study and consider and lay things together and so come to know its meaning N. C. Yes we must give our minds to it and then the Spirit enlightens us C. That is it guides us to reason and discourse and judge aright Is not that it you mean N. C. No I mean it shines into our minds with its light C. These are phrases which I would have you explain if you can My Question is this Doth the Spirit shew as any new thing which is not the conclusion of the Reasonings and Discourses in our minds about the Sense of Scripture N. C. I cannot say it doth C. Then you confess that the Scripture is to to be interpreted in a Rational way we not having that which is truly to be called Spiritual in distinction from the other viz. the immediate revelation of the Holy Ghost which the Apostles had N.C. Still I cannot think that this is Spiritual C. That is you are prejudiced or else you phansie every thing that you do not understand to be Spiritual N.C. No not so but the manner of understanding the things of God methinks should be other than you conceive C. Truly if you have any other manner of understanding besides this and have not the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost I conclude you take the sudden and many times pretty suggestions of Imagination to be Illuminations from above N.C. Now you have hit on something that I would have said The Spirit doth often dart things into my mind C. How know you that Do you take every thing that comes into your head you know not how to be an Irradiation from the Holy Ghost N.C. No I dare not say so C. Then you examine it and consider whether it be rational and coherent or no. N.C. Yes C. Then you fall into our way whether you will or no. And whatsoever you think of us we do not deny but God's good Spirit puts good thoughts oft-times in our minds and represents things more clearly to us than we could make them by all our reasonings which is as much as to say that it lets us see the reasonableness and aptness of such a Sense for instance of the Divine Writings as we discerned not before N.C. Well I am glad to hear you speak so much of the Spirit C. You might hear ten times as much if you would but frequent our Assemblies For there we are constantly taught that the very ground and foundation of our Faith in Jesus Christ is the Spirit i.e. the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven upon our Saviour and his Apostles N.C. You mix so much of Reason with what you say that I am afraid you are not in the right C. You should rather conclude the contrary and not believe any thing but what you have a good reason for N.C. Say you so How then shall I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God Can Reason tell me this C. I am sorry to see you so ill instructed If you had continued to hear our Minister he would have made you understand before this time that though our reason could not find out that Truth yet God hath given us the highest reason to believe it And this I told you is the Spirit the Spirit in Christ and in his Apostles N.C. Pray explain your meaning for I understand not these new Notions C. The Holy Ghost I mean descended on our Saviour at his Baptism with a voice from Heaven saying This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased This is one reason we have to believe on him Then he wrought miracles by the power of this Spirit and

seem to me to endeavour by these questions to put your selves and the people into a great passion and a kind of agony but they do not spring I persuade my self nor arise of themselves from any ardency of Devotion But there is another thing that offends me more than all this that having stirr'd up some confused passions in your selves by this and other such like means you proceed to such an high degree of confidence in this bold way of Arguing with God that you quite forget who you are speaking to For some have told him that he little knew how his enemies insulted or some such thing and that if he did but know how desirous they were of such a thing or how much they would prize it he would not deny them N. C. Pray Sir hold your peace or I will stop my cars You abuse good men C. I tell you only what is credibly reported and if it be not so I shall be very glad But I must adde that they take such a liberty of saying any thing to God which they would say to one another that I conceive it not unlikely that some might fall into those unseemly others perhaps will call them blasphemous expressions Are not you of the same mind N. C. I cannot deny but that they use great familiarity with God C. Familiarity do you call it would the world had never known it For it is such a one as hath bred in mens minds a contempt of God and Religion It hath taught every body to let that Member loose which ought to be always bridled especially in God's presence They vent all their foolish Opinions to him they tell him News and inform him how things go abroad which they have received many times upon a false report which hath brought such a scandal upon Religion that it cannot but grieve any good man's heart to think on 't N. C. It is such as you that have brought Religion into contempt and not we C. How so I pray you N. C. By despising the Spirit C. It is false We reverence that Spirit which was in the Apostles and if we could see such an one again none would entertain it with greater gladness We acknowledge also the power of the Spirit of God still in the hearts of men especially of those who are good and we bless God continually for it But that which we deny is this That either you or we are able as I told you to pray by the Spirit N. C. Do you not then despise the Spirit C. No we suppose there is no such thing as Prayer by the Spirit if there were we should reverence it N. C. Would you would tell me your meaning C. I mean a prayer immediately dictated by the Holy Ghost as some were in the Apostles day N. C. I understand you not C. Such a prayer in which by the Inspiration of the Holy Ghost a man conceives those things which he speaks to God Or in plainer terms I mean that the Spirit of God doth not now suggest to any of us when we pray the very matter and words which we utter If you pretend to this then those prayers are as much the Word of God as any of David's Psalms or as any part of the Bible and being written from your mouths may become Canonical Scripture N. C. But we do not pretend to this C. I wish then you would not talk as if you did I am sure your discourses of Prayer are commonly such that one would think you took your selves to be full of the Holy Ghost And this I must tell you hath made a great many scorn Religion when they saw the Spirit of God intitled to such pitiful stuff as they heard many vent with the greatest confidence N. C. This is their own fault C. And yours too N. C. I cannot believe that our Prayers ever had any such effect C. But I can and I will tell you how You constantly tell us that the Bishops by prescribing a Form limit and stint the Spirit By which Spirit you mean the Spirit of God not your own From whence it follows that you think or would have the world think that the Spirit of God speaks in you when you pray and that you utter its mind and words Now many men hearing you pray so inconsiderately and wildly uttering most absurd if not impious things yet with a mighty zeal and confidence have been tempted to think that whatsoever is said of the Spirit even in the Apostles days might possibly be no more than such an Extravagance and Fury as this N. C. A most sensless conceit C. I think so too But you have given occasion to such conceits in those that are inclined to Infidelity N. C. I hope not For we onely mean when we say we pray by the Spirit that the Holy Ghost assists us C. With what Doth it furnish you with words N. C. No with devout and ardent affections C. This indeed you should mean but your brags of the Spirit import more N. C. Pray Sir use no such reproachful words we boast of nothing C. Well pardon me that word But if you do not brag yet you say that you can pray by the Spirit and we cannot at least do not In which you ascribe something more to your selves than is to be found among us N. C. Yes C. Then you mean more by praying by the Spirit than being inspir'd with devout Affections For those you cannot deny we may have as well as you and unless you will take upon you to search the heart you must grant we feel them since we protest that we do From whence I conclude whatsoever you say that your men would have you believe that it is the Spirit which speaks in them and by them when they pray Which is a thing that reproaches not only them but the very Spirit of God and as I said before hath at least confirm'd men in their Atheistical or unbelieving inclinations N. C. Well I will not dispute this with you any longer But tell me seriously do you think that men could pray with that readiness and elocution and lenght if they were not mightily assisted by the Spirit of God C. Yes indeed do I. Their own spirits will serve them for this purpose if they be but indued with good phansies and a sufficient measure of boldness For it is a great vertue I assure you in this case not to be modest though we reckon it a singular vertue to be so N. C. I cannot think it possible C. Why Neighbour you may take my word for this There are many of our men could out-do you in this Gift as you call it of Prayer if they would give themselves the liberty and yet you would not think them inspir'd I am sure I mean they are able to speak so readily and fluently so earnestly and passionately of all manner of things and to continue this strain so long and that without humming or hawing that if you did

I had once perused a little of it N. C. What part did you peruse C. I thought that the Marrow I was told of might be found if any where in that Discourse which he calls the Way and Spirit of the New Testament But as far as I examin'd it I met with nothing but a great many bones to pick and they had little or nothing on them N. C. Pray forbear this merriment and let us seriously consider what he saith C. That 's my desire And for your satisfaction read that part where he tells us what the way of the Old Testament was and what the way of the New is I believe I shall convince you that he is not only out of the true way but also describes his own way after a poor and wretched manner N. C. Be not so earnest C. He tells us in the first place That the Old Testament Legal spirit serves God upon the account of Rewards mostly or chiefly or only But the New Testament spirit doth not Whereas there is nothing plainer than that Rewards are propounded in both Covenants to encourage our duty And the Gospel urges us so frequently with the consideration of the rewards it promises that I question not but he that hath them always in his mind and serves our Lord Christ out of those hopes as his chief motive pleases him very well For the true difference between the Covenants is not that the one sets rewards before men and the other not but that the old Covenant made with the Jews propounded Temporal Rewards and the Gospel propounds Eternal which ar● as often repeated in the Gospel as the other it the Law And therefore he hath discovered 〈◊〉 New-nothiing when he saith that to serve Go● for Rewards mostly c. is plainly Legal Nay it is absolutely false For if a man be moved a I said only by hopes of unseen things in ano● ther world to obey God and quit things present for his sake no doubt he serves him in an Evangelical manner N. C. Good Neighbour be not so confident C. Why should I not have some degree of confidence about these things seeing I am master of common Reason and I have consulted also with several of our Ministers about them who have made it plain to me that the Gospel propounds Eternal Rewards in the Life to come as the great motive to well-doing The most that any sober man ever said as far as I can learn in this argument is that he who doth well only in sight of those rewards is in a weak estate but they always allowed him to be indued with an Evangelical Spirit N. C. Then it seems you live upon your own purse and upon what you can earn of God which he tells you is contrary to a Gospel spirit C. It is so But that is an impertinent Conclusion from his former discourse For a man may serve God upon the account of Reward and yet not be so foolish as to imagine he can earn any thing of him N. C. Indeed you speak too confidently C. I am not of that mind For I may judge what is consequently spoken as well as another man And I am sure that Conclusion is nothing to the purpose only he imagin'd this to be a pretty saying That a man of a Gospel spirit knows he lives upon a better purse than all his own ●arnings can amount unto N.C. I wish you would be more temperate C. Who can endure to see men bear up themselves so highly and hear them cry'd up as if they were full of the Spirit when as there is scarce common sense in them and not be a little concern'd N.C. Well suppose there be one flaw in that Discourse must that make all this ado C. One flaw Read the rest and you will find that it is no wiser For he would have us immediately after to receive this as another note of a Legal spirit that it is a fearing spirit put on rather by the Threatnings than the Promises and the Gospel spirit rather by Promises than Threatning N.C. And is not this true C. No. For our Saviour bids his Disciples again and again to fear Luke 12.4 5. not indeed such things as the Mosaical spirit did Temporal Calamities upon their Bodies Goods c. but Eternal Miseries which they should avoid though with the enduring of all the hardships in the world And whereas he says that the difference between the Dispensations is that the one is terrible the other comfortable it is manifestly false For the Gospel speaks a great deal more terribly than the Law doth to Hypocrites and Unbelievers N.C. Therefore he tells you afterward that a gratious Soul may be full of fears about its condition C. This is nothing to his business For he was not speaking concerning the fears which a Soul hath about its estate but of the Principle upon which a man doth his duty And if I understand any thing a Christian is moved by fear as well as hope N.C. Well he acknowledges so much when he saith a gracious heart may be full of fears C. I tell you again this is impertinent for these are not motives to his Duty but rather hindrances and impediments as he will tell you And besides he makes them to be causeless fears for he saith they are the fears of a man that stands upon a rock and therefore he ought not to be troubled with them Whereas the Scripture requires us to fear Hebr. 4.1 and tells us there is cause for it lest a Promise being left us of entring into rest any of us should seem to come shore of it and to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and to have grace to serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear Mind this last place and tell me if it do not directly oppose what he saith He perswades you that a fearing spirit is a Legal spirit● and the Apostle tells you it is an effect of the Gospel grace and such a thing whereby we acceptably serve God N.C. You have studied this I perceive and I have not But what say you to the third which is this A Legal spirit measures the love of God by outward things C. I say it is the best thing he says and he was to blame that he passed it over so slightly and hastily as if it were not worth his notice N.C. Is not the fourth as remarkable viz. That an Old Testament Spirit trades much or most or altogether with conditional Promises the other not C. It is indeed very remarkable First for the paltry phrase of trading in promises and Secondly for the pernicious consequence of the Doctrine N.C. Why Is not the Doctrine true C. No. For though there was an absolute Promise of sending Christ yet there are no absolate Promises which Christ makes to us N.C. He seems to grant as much C. That is he contradicts himself N.C. No he saith though the Promise b● Conditional yet the Lord hath promised that

you will not come to hear N. C. Their Lawn-sleeves offend us C. And why should you not as well take offence at the White Cap and the Lace which I have often seen under the Black upon your Ministers heads N. C. Any thing becomes a Godly man C. I thought thither would be your retreat But why are not the Bishops Godly too N. C. They do not love and encourage good men C. You still suppose none are good but your selves which is no great token of that Modesty and Humility which we think necessary to make a Godly man But suppose any of them should be so bad as not to countenance the very best among us but rather the worst yet this would be onely the fault of the Men not of the Office N. C. I have often heard that Distinction but I could never love your Logick C. Yes sometimes For you once liked a more subtil Distinction than this and that was between the King 's personal and politick capacity N. C. Pray forbear to scratch those old sores But why do your Bishops oppose all Praying by the Spirit C. I thought you might come to that at last I fansie it is the great quarrel you have with the. N. C. Verily it is C. Then let me assure you the Bishops are the farthest of any men in the world from opposing Praying by the Spirit N. C. You tell me a thing incredible I should come sometimes to hear your Ministers but that they have not the Spirit of Prayer which the Bishops I suppose suppress and keep down all they can C. Belike then you think that to pray by the Spirie and to have a Spirit of Prayer are all one N. C. Why not I know no difference C. Because I am sure ours have a Spirit of Prayer but neither ours nor yours can pray by the Spirit If they could the Bishops would rather suffer Martyrdom than oppose it N. C. I apprehend you not C. Very likely for I see you have been nourished with phrases but understand very little N. C. Pray try if you can make me understand more since it seems you are so skilful C. Hear me quietly then and I will tell you what I have learn'd For my skill is onely borrow'd from such good men as our Parish Priest whom you I doubt sometime deride and scornfully call by that name N. C. I am in no passion speak your mind C. Tell me then when a man reverently addresses himself to God seriously acknowledges his Authority over all his Power Wisdom and Goodness professes to depend upon him intirely dreads his Displeasure waits upon him for his grace and favour hungers and thirsts after Righteousness and devoutly renders his Thanks to the Possessor of Heaven and Earth for all his benefits hath he the Spirit of Prayer or no N. C. I cannot say but he hath if his heart go along with his lips C. Then our Ministers have the Spirit of Prayer for in all appearance and as far as we can judge they have an inward sense of these things when they pray And as for their words and gestures they are generally more reverent and becoming than yours N. C. Methinks you should not be of that mind C. Truly I have heard such bold and sometimes rude things spoken by some of yours in Prayer that I could not think they had any sense and feeling of God at all at that time Their Gestures also were ridiculous Nay I have seen some of them look about upon the people to see I suppose how they were affected when they should have turn'd their eyes toward Heaven Which was an argument to me they had something else in their mind then more than God N. C. Then it seems you hear them sometimes C. Not now But I have heard them heretofore when they preached in our Churches N. C. O! but if you could hear them now you would say they are full of the Spirit C. Because they pour out such abundance of words N. C. No but they are more earnest than ever and they plead with God after a more effectual manner C. You call Loudness of speech Earnestness which I always took to be the ardent desire of our Souls after that good which we humbly beg of God And as for their pleading with God I think it is rather sauciness N. C. Now you are bitter C. If I thought so I should condemn my self as much as you can do for I have learn'd that we ought to put away all wrath bitterness clamour and evil speaking Nay if I thought I had done amiss I would ask forgiveness not onely from God but from you too N. C. That is a good mind But why d●d you use such an harsh expression Is it not one of Jobs words Job 16.21 C. Yes but not in your sense For he would willingly have maintained his innocency and have had his Case argued that he might make it appear he was not so guilty as his friends made him Which is nothing to your purpose who I suppose do not intend though you call Jesus Christ a Days-man between God and us to stand upon your defence and justifie your selves before him This you think too great a boldness do you not N. C. Yes C. Why then may I not call it a Sauciness in you to do a great deal more I mean to question God so much as you are wont and to ask him over and over again what 's the reason he doth not this or that and why he suffers you to be so and so and how he can deny you this or the other thing N. C. Doth not David sometimes ask questions C. Yes in a great agony of spirit and upon some great occasion which will not warrant you to take this unheard of boldness So I call it because things done in imitation of others when we are not in that condition and have not that occasion and that spirit also which they had are very fulsome no better than the motions of a Monkey when he imitates a man To do those things also commonly which those great men did now and then is monstrously unbeseeming Besides his Psalms are pieces of Divine Poetry in which Passions are wont to be expressed much otherwise than they ought to do in plain and familiar speech And yet you not onely venture to use their Figures of speech but you go beyond them Like a man that having light upon a good Figure in Rhetorick will never have done with it but is always touching upon it Then which nothing can be more absurd especially if he heap a great many of these Figures together as your manner is asking God over and over again as I said why he doth not this or that and when he will do it Besides that which in a great agony as I said is very decent to be spoken doth not befit a man's mouth at another time but they that go about to imitate it do a thing unnatural And the truth is you