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A18448 The oration of the most noble and reverende father in God the Lorde Cardinalles Grace of Lorrain made and pronounced in thassemblie [sic] at Poyssi, the kyng beyng present, the sixtene daye of Septembre, in the yeare of our Lorde 1561 / translated out of Frenche into Englishe by T.S. Guise, Charles de, Cardinal de Lorraine, 1525-1574. 1561 (1561) STC 5010.5; ESTC S283 23,800 31

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thou dooest reigne and commaunde thou haste it by the benefyte and grace of IESVS CHRIST But wherevnto serueth this conference of kyngly or priestlye dignities namely vnto vs whyche neuer ne yet oure predecessoures haue at any tyme experimented of oure moste Christian kynges any vnseemely enterprise and that bee and doo succede in the states of them who neuer denyed the due obedience to their kynges no not once called the same in question The effect of his first proposition Lette then Sire the firste discourse of this proposition bee to this ende principally that all menne maye bee wytnesse in what reuerente sort we humble oure selues And howe muche wee woulde that bothe we and all they that be vnder our charge should shewe their faithfull obedience Let it be also a manifest declaration of the authoritie that God hath left to vs in the guidyng of soules in the doctrine of our faith and that vnder your protection to the ende that leauyng all other thynges aparte I maye make you vnderstande my charge and by whom I am therevnto authorised SYRE in this companie by your commaundement assembled we be a great numbre of Archbishops Byshops vpon whom thimposition of handes haue ben layd by their Metropolitanes and other byshops of the same prouince and through the grace of Iesus Christe the holy ghost hath ben geuen nominated by the kinges your predecessoures who do succede in the right of their people they referryng themselues to them and into theyr handes themselues beyng discharged of all that is necessarie to their choise or election We be receyued vpon the view and consent of our clergies and of our peoples that be vnder vs after our institution made by our holy fathers the Popes and the holye see Apostolique whom we acknowledge for our Superior and all these signes and markes be accompanyed with one succession from thapostles vnto vs very well continued There be also a good numbre of priestes sente by the Byshops that bee absent and by the chapters and Clergie and also Doctors of Parys whom I name for honors sake and of other famous vniuersities and to theym all I am inferior in vnderstandyng knowledge and eloquence and yet neuerthelesse by them all ordeyned to make you vnderstand one thyng The vnity of the prelates and 〈…〉 nce wherin thankes be vnto God we be all of one harte one soule of one fayth vnder one God vnder one head our sauior and redmer Iesus Christ vnder one onely Catholike churche his spouse hym we serue in spirite vnto hym with one intention mynde and prayer we bowe the knees of our heartes we worship and adore hym and by hym we aske the graces and gyftes of the holy ghost and haue no spotte of Idolatrie howesoeuer some men go about to lay vnto our chargs Vnderstande therfore Syre theffect of my message It is nowe eyght dayes passed that by your expresse ordinaunce a certayne number of persons were broughte into this place 〈…〉 and 〈…〉 who of long tyme haue seperated themselues from vs to our great sorow and griefe makyng a contrary profession of faithe and woulde not be obedient to our orders and obseruations and yet in wordes shew themselues as though they were desyrous to lerne and to be instructed reentryng into this their countrey and into the house and company of their fathers whom when they will acknowledge for fathers they shall be receyued and embraced for children Against theym we purpose not to obiecte any reproche but beare with their infirmitie not reiecte theim but call them agayne not separate them but vnite theim to th ende that we maye all with one mouthe geue honor to God the Father of our Lord Iesus Christ To them therfore in all charitie and spirite of mekenesse we answer that we are verye glad of their profession made of tharticles of the Crede commune to all Christian men and doo desire with all our hartes that like as they dooe agree in woordes so also they woulde agreee with vs in sence and vnderstandyng as it hath appeared vnto vs they haue not doone by their definition of the catholike churche callyng the same to be the congregation of the chosen After that they touched summarily diuers pointes cleane contrary to that whiche the Catholike church doth teache and beleue and in so greate numbre that beyng well compared vnto our profession wherof not to speake without lawe but to proue if accordyng to holy doctrine euery poynte nedeth a whole day and so the debatyng of this matter woulde require whole monethes This hath ben the cause why at this tyme I haue charged my selfe of two pointes onely whereof the principall is to separate them and to make them strangers thother is the only rule wherby we may measure our controuersies and so come to agreement This latter is of the Catholike churche of the authoritie of the Scripture of the holy councelles and interpretations of the fathers 1. Tim. 3 whych point I will firste entreate of and the other is of the veritie of the bodye and bloude of IESVS CHRIST in the holy sacrament of the Eucharistia The one is the piller the strengthe the staye and establishmente of the truth The other is the sacrament of our vnitie beynge by hollye communion and participation of the bodye and bloud of our lord vnited and incorporated to our sauiour made all members of one body well composed and agreing wherof IESVS CHRIST is the head It is six score yeares and more before the counsell of Constance before which counsel there were some did affirm that the chirche was of the chosen only and that whosoeuer was a synner coulde not be accompted of the church and namely that a bishop whom God had reproued and so consequently whiche was a member of the diuell had no power ouer the faithful Ther folowed them other which saide that the vniuersall churche was onely of such as were predestinate Proffes that the Churche cōsisteth in good and euil Mat. 3. Luc. 3. Mat. 22. Mat. 25. Ioan. 15. Esai 5 Math 2 Mat. 12 Luc. 2 These errours and the renuers of them were in that councell reproued and condempned as altogether wholy repugnaunt to the holy scriptures wherin it is sayd that in the floure of our lord there shall alwayes be found chaffe with the corne which shall continue to the ende at what tyme the same shal be purged and clensed by the fanne of IESVS CHRIST The flocke of our lord doth conteyne both sheepe and goates the same shall not be seperated vntill his return Al the world is bidden to the banket but vpon the view which god shal make he that is found euil apparailed is driuen thens Among the virgins were founde fiue fooles against whom the gates were shutte The vineyarde of our Lord hath not brought foorth good grapes but also bastarde grapes whiche was not only tilled by good husbād men but also by euil whome god will destroy and
❧ THE ORATION OF THE MOST NOBLE AND REVERENDE FAther in GOD the lorde Cardinalles grace of Lorrain made and pronounced in thassemblie at Poyssi the Kyng beyng present the sixtene days of Septembre In the yeare of our Lorde 1561. Translated out of Frenche into Englishe by T. S. THis present daye being the eight of October 156● The kinge beynge at Saint Germyne in Laye did permit geue licence to William Morel his printer dwelling at Paris to printe or cause to be printed the oracion made by the cardinals grace of Lotharinge in the assemble at Poissy the 16. daye of September last past the same to put abroade vtter forbidding all other printers the same to imprinte or cause to bee imprinted or selle without licence or sufferaunce of the said Morel and his maiesty hath geuen me in commandement hereof to make asmuch expedicion as I conueniently coulde De Laubespine SYRE we acknowleadge you for oure soueraigne and naturall lorde and confesse oure selues to be your most humble and obediente subiectes and seruauntes And the fidelitie whiche we haue sworne and solemnely promised vnto your grace we will neuer gaine go it After our example then and accordyng to the doctrine of God whiche we announce all ye that be presente 〈…〉 and all those lykewise that bee vnder your maiesties rule gouernemente in this mosse christen realme be ye for the loue of God subiectes to all policie and humaine order whether it be to the kynge as to the head and soueraigne or vnto theim whiche vnder hym supplie the chiefe places nerte his persone or els vnto other by hym established thorough the prouinces euery one accordynge to his charge as vnto them whiche be sent by hym to the punyshyng of euyll doers and to the praise of them that do well For such is the will of God that in doyng well you shall stoppe the mouthe to the ignorant and foolyshe All this purpose the apostle saint Peter concludeth in these fower words 1. Pet. 1. Feare God and honor the Kyng as though he wold saye Honor the kyng for that ye ought to scare God It is he Pro. ● by whom kynges do rule And they that make lawes ordeyn iust thinges wherby princis doo commaunde and the mightie doo iudge the earth wherof he that will seke thoriginall must nedes confesse that all power is geuen of our Lorde God and the vertue strength cometh from aboue 〈…〉 Ro● It is he saith Dauid that geueth saufetie to kinges and instructeth my handes to fight maketh my singers to serue in the warre To be short fithens that all superior and hygh power is of God principally then is the power of kynges ordeined by hym wher vnto if any maketh resistence dothe withstande his ordinance and purchaseth to himselfe damnation Let vs be therfore to your maiestie faithfull and obediente subiectes not onely for not prouoking your anger but also for conscience sake Notwithstanding remembre syre that you are not onely a minister of God and of oure Lorde Iesus Christe The duetie of a Kyng toward the churche of his authoritee there Esa 49 60 but also of his Chirch the whiche you norishe and conserue you are therof a sonne and not a lorde a member and not a head as by his prophete long tyme sithens he warned the chirche whyche shoulds be assembled of the Gentils For Esaie sayth The kynges shal be thy nourses and shal submitte them selues to do thee honor and seruice The kynges shall be broughte vnto thee and shall obeye thee And the people and realme that shall not serue thee shall peryshe and there shall be made suche waste and destruction that no habitation there shall bee founde Which saying our first and moste holy ancient Byshoppes aduentured to proteste before their myghtiest and moste redoubted Emperors 23 q. 8. cap conuen● o● and those Emperoures accepted the same in good parte Sainct Ambrose speakyng of the Emperour Valentinian the yonger and of Iustinian his mother saith thus What name or title more honorable maye an Emperor attribute to hym selfe then to bee called the Sonne of the Churche whiche was spoken withoute offence and the same ryghte thankefully accepted For the Emperor is within the Churche and not aboue The same Saint Ambrose in a request presented to the same Emperor refused his iudgement in his disputation with Aurentius an Arrian byshoppe Epi 32 Forasmuche sayth he as in causes of Faithe and of the Churche Byshoppes do iudge of the laitie and not the laitie in their consistories assemblies do iudge of Byshops And this saith he none will cal in doubte that wil kepe the wel ordered course of the holy scriptures or that wil folow the good auncient customes and obseruations Way enge well then these thynges what is he that in cause of faithe will denye that Byshoppes haue not accustomed to iudge of Christian Emperors and not the Emperours of Byshoppes In this Consistorie IESVS CHRIST hathe not accustomed to occupye the place of a partie but rather of a Iudge If ye treate with hym I haue learned that it oughte to bee in the Churche whyche my forfathers haue doone If it bee to haue conference in matters of Faithe that conference oughte to bee made with the priestes VVhat in g●ments in maters of faithe the olde christian Emperors obserued and in vvhat estimation they had their Bishops priestes Ruf. li. 10 ca. 2. Tripar li. 2 ca ● Socr. li. 2. ca. 8 Theo. li. 1 cap 11. Sozom. li. 1. c. 17. Nicep li. 8. ca. 16. ● Ambrose in the place befor alledged The lyke order was obserued vnder that greate Emperoure Constantine who withoute any restraynte dydde permyt to the Ecclesiasticall persones free iudgemente in matters of faithe and would neuer iudge of priuate complayntes made of any Byshoppes in the councell of Nice It is GOD sayth he that hath constituted you priestes that hathe geuen you power to iudge of vs and not power to me to iudge of you He is onely youre iudge and you oughte not to bee iudged by men Whyche holye opinion Valentinian the elder full welle did folowe sayeng It becometh me not to iudge amonge the Byshoppes where any question of the Faithe or of Ecclesiasticall ordre aryseth He ought not to iudge that doothe diffre in charge but he whyche is of lyke vocation that is to saye priestes oughte to iudge of prestes In the selfe same tyme and to lyke effecte Gregorye Nazianzene dydde preache before the Emperour Valens and tolde hym The ordynaunce of IESVS CHRIST hathe made you subiecte vnto my power and to my iurisdiction You are not he onely that ruleth for we also rule in a greatter and more perfecte Empire yf we dooe not submytte the spirite to the fleshe and heauenly thynges to earthly But geue me leaue moste noble Emperour more frankelye to vtter my mynde I knowe that thou arte a sheepe of my flocke and in that