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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A63393	The Quakers rounds, or, A Faithful account of a large discourse between a party of them called Quakers viz. William Fisher and Edward Burroughs, &c with Mr. Philip Taverner, Mr. Richard Goodgroom, and Mr. M. Hall, ministers of the Gospel ... / published by William Taverner, preacher of the Word.	W. F. (William Fisher); Burrough, Edward, 1634-1662.	1658 (1658)	Wing T248; ESTC R31011	28,134	41

in opposion to Justification by works according to the law Rom. 4.2.3 And this was before Abraham had ever a Child which will clearely appear if you consult the Scriptures So that Abraham was justified by faith before he went to offer up his son Isaac he was before that act of obedience a justified person therefore not justified hereby but onely declared to be a true beleever his faith was hereby clearely manifest and no more can be drawn from this of the Apostle James if we do seriously weigh ver 18 19 20. and compare what followes with these going before And here ended this confused dispute about Justification in which point it is feared by some that those called Quakers if all of the same mind with E. B. and. W. F. have a Pope in their belly if so I heartily wish the Lord would shew them their errour recover their feet out of the snare and deliver them from the delusion I have since this Dispute met with a Book called A Standard lift up for all People The Author this E. B. there are three passages which I took notice of in it relating to JUSTIFICATION I. PAge 3. Chap. 1. towards the end of the Chapter it is said God Justifieth the Righteous and condemneth the Wicked If by justifying be meant Gods owning approving and accepting the Righteous and that the same God doth not accept but disown the Wicked in their wickedness then is it a Truth of the same stamp with that Psal 5.4 5. But if by justifying be meant that of absolving and acquiting from guilt and condemnation which is that the Apostle so often cals Justification how will it agree with that in Rom. 4.5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly c. II. Page 11. Chap. 8. It is the new man that is justified not the old If by justifying be meant as before Gods owning and accepting with delight so it is true God accepts owns and delights in nothing but the new Creature in us for what is after the will of the flesh or the old man in us is the object of his loathing and shall be destroyed But if by justifying be meant in the second sence an acquitting and absolving the sinner from guilt and condemnation then how can the new man which never sinned be said to be justified vix from sin or to be acquitted from guilt and condemnation which it was never under III. Page 11. Chap. 8. lin 3. And such as are taught by Christ and guided by him in all the wayes of Truth and Righteousness are justified by him and none else not in any word or work whatsoever but in what they are led to fulfil by him What strange contradiction in the two last clauses as if what they are led to fulfil by him were not a work And here again If by being justified in what they are led to fulfil by Christ be only meant a being accepted and owned of God in the thing done It is granted that God accepts of nothing from us but what is the work of his own Spirit and Grace in us but if by being justified in what they are led to fulfil by him be meant that Justification which himself cals lin 11. of this Chapter A being cleared from condemnation in the sight of God What could the Pope himself have spoken more plain for effecting Justification by inherent Righteousness or the work of the Law wrought in us For what can that clause in what they are led to fulfil by him relate to but a conformity to the righteous holy and good Law of God And if this be our Justification to what purpose was the death of Christ For a perfect conformity to the Law of God in our own persons though not wrought in our own strength but in the strength and power of Grace the Spirit working all in us and for us is no other than the Righteousness of the Law And as to this Point ye cannot be ignorant of what the Apostle saith If Righteousness be by the Law then Christ dyed in vain Gal. 2.21 Several other Passages I have taken notice of in in this Book some contradictory others dark and doubtful as to what is the Authors aim in them PAge 4. Chap. 2. And this Christ Jesus the Son of God is the light and life of the World and hath enlightned all mankind every one that cometh into the world is lighted by him with the true light of life or condemnation And page 22. Christ Jesus the second Adam lighteth every man and all mankind that cometh into the World with the true light How do these agree with that Page 25. Chap. 19. Mans state in the first Adam in transgression is a state of perfect enmity against God and Death reigns in every man and he is possessed with blindness ignorance and unbelief c I say how do these agree unless there be granted a general restauration of all men which yet you seem to deny in Page 10. Chap. 6. where you acknowledge some to be in a state unreconciled to God and having no part nor portion in these things which belong to their peace Page 10. lin 1. Many profess them in words what others enjoy of these things but have not felt in themselves the working of the eternal Spirit neither have the witness in themselves of being restored again From this latter clause a twofold question ariseth for your words speak not forth your meaning clearly 1. Whether none are restored again but those that have the witness in themselves Or secondly Whether all are restored but some want the witness of this in themselves which you mean is doubtful Page 10. Chap. 7. in the three last lines This Religion and Worship stands in Christ Jesus the second Adam who hath lighted every man that comes into the World that all men through him might believe c. Hence this question ariseth Whether that light which is in all and every particular man is sufficient without any thing farther of speciall grace superadded to bring up every man to beleeve in Christ unto salvation or to beleeve in God by meanes of Christ 1 Pet. 1.20 Pag. 5. Chap. 3. This is the testimony of the Spirit of God and it leadeth into all truth and out of all evill all that are guided by it and it is given to be the guide and rule of life to the Children of God Whence this question for in these things he speakes darkely and doubtfully Whether the Spirit is so given to be the guide and rule of life to the Saints that they have no more need to attend upon the Scriptures Chap. 19. After many other things it follows pag. 28. towards the end And the light of Christ in every one shall give testimony to it unto which I do onely commend my self and these truths to be witnessed Can these be wittnesses to you and of the truth in you who are as you say Pag. 6. Chap. 4. ignorant of the life power and wisedome of the Creatour to leade guide and preserve them following the counsell of their own heart which is evill altogether c. or can such judge between light and darkness between truth and falsehood who are possessed with blindness igorance and unbeleife and wholly imperfect to receive the things of Gods kingdom or to act any thing for God acceptable to him pag. 25. Chap. 19. Pag. 17. Chap. 13. It is truely said That the word of God was in the heart and mouth of the servant of God and that from it they spake forth the Scriptures and then followes As they were moved by the holy ghost through the eternal Spirit Do you make the Holy Ghost and eternall Spirit two or what do you mean by Holy Ghost it is indeed a usuall word among us though there be little to bear up the use of it more then long custome but by Holy Ghost we mean the holy and eternall Spirit what you mean wants an interpreter to find out and make known who seeme to make them two because you say by the holy Ghost through the eternall Spirit Pag. 10. Chap. 7. This is true religion c. where is given forth the same description of true Religion for substance with that of the Apostle James 1.26.27 and towards the end of the page it is said This is acceptable and well pleasing to God above all words and outward conformity and set times and dayes and observances c. This is subscribed to as honest and true and yet may a snake lie in this grasse The question therefore offers it self viz. Whether a doing the greater things of the law is acceptable where the lesse are neglected when it is said I will have mery not sacrifice or mercy rather then sacrifice which is the meaning God did not so require mercy as wholly to take off from Sacrifice onely hereby is declared that God prefers that before this which is true unto this day God requires to speake the truth and do the truth in all things to do unto all men as a man would be done unto to love God with all our heart and our neghbour as our selves c. But hence will not follow an abolition of all institute Worship consisting in the use of such Ordinances which Christ hath appointed and which were in use among the Saints in the primitive times God indeed prefers the former before this but stil requires us to mind according to that of Christ These things ye ought to have done and not to leave the other undone FINIS

the Spirit unto those who were the Penmen of the Scriptures and remaines unto us unto this day a rule in the letter concerning things to be beleeved and practiced by us E. B. I say the Scriptures Declare the Word of God and therefore are not the Word for that which declares and that which is Declared are not one and the same thing but two P. T. You have heard the distinction which is a full answer to this but do you not grant that that heavenly Doctrin which is there Declared is truth E. B. Yea I grant it P. T. And that those holy men of God who writ the Scriptures did both speak and write as they were moved by the holy Spirit E. B. Yea I say so also P. T. And that those things there declared and given forth in writing are things to be beleeved and practiced by us in these our dayes as well as by those in whose generation they were written E. B. I grant all this P. T. Then you say in effect the same and no other then what we do viz. that the Scriptures are the Declarative Word of God and consequently the wide difference as it seems betweene us concerning the Scriptures being the Word of God is rather in words and expressions then in matter and substance R. G. What they grant doth not yet satisfie us for they acknowledge the Scriptures onely a Declaration and deny it to be the Word but I say further and will prove it that the Scriptures are the Word of God W. F. The letter of the Scriptures R. G. Yea the Letter W. F. Mark that Collonel speaking to Collonel Bisco who was there present he sayes he will prove the letter to be the Word R. G. I say the Letter by a Figure Before the argument was laid down one of them called Quakers whose name I know not produced that text of the Apostle 2 Cor. 3.6 calling out to the People to hearken to the form of wholesome words who also hath made us able Ministers of the new Testament not of the Letter but of the Spirit for the Letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life W. F. The Apostle was a Minister of the word and Gospel of Christ and he sayes not of the Letter but of the Spirit but thou sayest the Letter is the Word of God and wilt undertake to prove it wilt thou then contradict the Apostle and prove him a Minister of the Letter when himself sayes not of the Letter but of the Spirit R. G. You wrest the Apostles words who doth not there speak of or meane the Letter of the Scriptures but the difference between the legall and Gospel Ministration W. F. But thou saidst that thou wouldest prove the Letter of the Scriptures to be the Word of God R. G. I said I would prove the Scriptures to be the Word of God which I am ready to do but ye are so full of words that ye will hear none but your selves nor give me leave to speak W. F. Well we will hear thee R. G. I lay it down in this argument That which Christ and his Apostles owned to be the word of God is indeed and in-truth the Word of God and ought to be so owned by us But Christ and his Apostles owned the Scriptures to be the Word of God Ergo The assumption or minor Proposition R. G. proved by two texts of Scripture the first concerning Christs owning the Scriptures to be the Word of God I doe not well remember but in stead of that take another Mark 7.13 Making the word of God of none authority by your tradition which ye have ordained c. The Lord Christ in the former part of the Chap reproves the hypocrisie of the Pharisees and tels them vers 8. For ye lay aside the Commands of God and observe the traditions of men The 10th verse makes it evident that by the Commands of God which they rejected Christ means the law given from God to the people of Israel by the hand of Moses which was a written Law and the same which he calls the Commands of God ver 8 9. he calls the word of God vers 13. making the word of God of none effect or of none authority by your traditions c. it relates to the Law given by Moses and more particularly to the fifth Commandement Honour thy Father and thy Mother c. which was one of the ten and written by the same hand as the rest were whence clearly appears that Christ owned and called the written Law the Word of God R. G. And that the Apostles owned the Scriptures to be the Word of God will appear by comparing that text 1 Thess 2.13 with some others For this cause also we thank God without ceasing that when ye received the Word of God which ye heard of us ye received it not as the Word of man but as it is indeed the Word of God You see in this text that what the Apostle preached and these Thessalonians received was indeed the word of God Now that which the Apostle preached was no other than what had been long before spoken and written by Moses and the Prophets For proof of this ye may consult Act. 26.22 and 28.23 whence appears that what was written by Moses and the Prophets was owned by the Apostle as the Word of God W. F. Thou speakest now of that which is written but didst undertake and saidst thou wouldest prove the Letter of the Scriptures to be the Word of God P. T. He said by a Figure W. F. Thou saidst the Letter R. G. You cannot conceive since I speak of a Figure that my meaning was the meer writing but by Letter and Scripture I meant the thing conteining for the thing conteined the writing for the thing written E. B. Well I will answer thee The Apostle preached the Gospell and this we grant is the word and power of God to salvation unto every one that beleeveth the Gospell is the word and power of God but not the Scriptures and it is the Gospel which the Apostle preached and which the Thessalonians received not as the word of man but as it was indeed the word of God the Gospel is the Word of God the Scriptures are not P. T. There is a twofold coming of the Gospel viz. in word and secondly in power 1 Thes 1.5 and it is the same the very same Gospel of Christ in the hand of both Ministrations the same Gospel of Christ when it comes in word and Letter as when it comes in Spirit and Power Again the Apostle writ the same which he preached he did not preach one thing and write another but the same Gospel and word of truth which he preached the same he writ if that therefore which he preached was not the word of man but indeed the word of God then that which he writ was also not the word of man but truly indeed the word of God Let us here ad another text though not then

what the Scripture affirms He that doth righteousness is righteous even as he is righteous 1 Iohn 3.7 R. G. He that doth righteousness is righteous as he viz. Christ is righteous in likeness but not in measure Christ was perfectly righteous and without sin but the most righteous among the sons of men have yet imperfection and sin in them W. F. Hearken to the form of wholesome words Blessed are the undefiled in the way who walk in the law of the Lord blessed are they that keep his testimonies and that seek him with the whole heart they also do no iniquity they walk in his wayes Psal 119.1 2 3. they do no iniquity therefore perfect and do not commit sin R. G. They do no iniquity allowedly as owning and approving the wayes of unrighteousness they follow not the course of the wicked who commit all uncleanness with greediness nor lie in wickedness as the rest of the world yet are they not perfect without sin but find oft-times cause to complain with the Apostle what I would that I do not but what I hate that do I Rom. 7.15 E. B. That there have been such who were perfect without sin appeares from that testimony which Christ gave of Nathaniel Behold a true Isrealite in whom is no guile Iohn 1.47 in whom is no guile therefore a man in whom was no sin R. G. It will not follow that he was wholly without sin because a man in whom was no guile These words of Christ prove him to be no hypocrite but a plain upright hearted Isrealite yet do not grant him a perfect man without all sin E. B. It is said in whom is no guile and if no guile were found in him then he was perfect P. T. He was perfect with that perfection which is called sincerity and upright-heartedness but not perfect according to that two-fold perfection in either part of it which we spake of in the beginning And here one of the company attempting to prove that Nathaniel sinned after this accounting him one of that number spoken of Mat. 26.56 Then all the Disciples forsook him and fled W. F. asked if Nathaniel were one of the twelve it was answered in hast yea one of the twelve and although presently corrected by saying he was one of the Disciples and followers of Christ yet here W. F. catched at that word one of the twelve made a great stirre about this slip of the tongue saying Thou hast been reasoning and standing out all this day against God and his truth and God hath now left thee to thy self to shew thy own nakedness with more of the like sort clearely manifesting to what I was able to judge a great Spirit of selfishness and bewraying much imperfection while he contended for perfection P. T. You will make a man an offender for a word while your selves are found in the same guilt who affirme that it was meant of the twelve when it is said then all the Disciples forsook him and fled whereas Judas one of the twelve had before this forsaken and gone away from Christ being now one of those who came with that great multitude to take him so that there were but eleven of whom it is said then all the Disciples viz. the eleven that were with him forsook him and fled and so this proof came to nothing though I beleeve it is more then they can prove that there were no more then meerly the eleven with Christ at that time when he was taken by those that came along with Judas but I will trouble the reader no farther with this E. B. We read of a hundred forty and foure thousand who stood with the Lambe upon mount Sion Rev. 14.1 and of these it is said ver 5. In their mouth was found no guile for they were without fault before the throne of God If without fault then perfect and without sin R. G. These were without guile as not being hypocrites but sincere and upright-hearted towards God and their perfection as to a being faultless before the throne of God is to be understood in point of Justification not Sanctification all truly beleeving in Christ are perfectly Justified though not perfectly Sanctified in this life E. B. I will prove it yet further from that of the Apostle As he is so are we in this world 1 Iohn 4.17 If as Christ is so are we who then can deny but we are perfect without sin for so was Christ P. T. Shall this Text decide the Controversie at lest will you hear some other speak beside your self E. B. I will yet ad a further proof from that 1 John 3.9 He that is born of God sinneth not What can be spoken more plain P. T. Have you yet done that I may have leave at last to speak a word E. B. We will hear thee P. T. I shall then begin with your last Text He that is born of God sinneth not we find in the same Chapt. vers 8. He that commits sin is of the Devil and between these two is a wide difference 1. He that is born of God sinneth not after the same rate as those who are of the Devil he chuses not the way of sin nor yields up himself a servant to unrighteousness There is a Law in his members rebelling yet can say with the Apostle I delight in the Law of God after the inward man Rom. 7.22 His fals are weakness not wilfulness which is true of every Christian while he is as we may say truly himself and not under a temptation David in the matter of Vriah ran very far yea sinned presumtuously and wilfully and with premeditation but it was at this time an hour of darkness upon him he was now under temptation and therefore acts not like a child of God as at other times A Christian while under a cloud of temptation is not indeed himself neither can we at such a time judge of him or his estate 2. He sins not that sin which is unto death spoken of Chap. 5.16 Christ cals it blasphemy against the holy Spirit which shall never have forgiveness Mark 3.29 He that is born of God sinneth not this sin but as the Apostle speaks vers 18. He that is begotten of God keepeth himself and that wicked one toucheth him not 3. Which I conceive is more directly the meaning of the Apostle in this Text He that is born of God sinneth not that is so far as born of God that which is born of God or the new creature in him doth not sin so far as he is acted by the pure principle of light and life in him the Spirit of truth received he doth not commit sin the Spirit leads forth to nothing but what is righteous and good the flesh to nothing but what is evil and sinful Rom. 7.17 18. To your former Text As he is viz. Christ so are we in this world I answer it cannot be understood in the full latitude of it that as Christ is so are we

not justified by our own but by the Righteousness of Christ P. T. Christ fulfilled all Righteousness in his own person E. B. I grant that P. T. And Christ works a work of Righteousness in our hearts by his Spirit E. B. Yea he doth P. T. And which of these do you mean when you say we are Justified by the Righteousness of Christ E. B. These are but one and the same P. T. How can this be is that Righteousness which Christ wrought out in his own person and which he works in us by his Spirit the same individual Righteousness E. B. None are justified by Christ but those who receive Christ and those who receive Christ in them is his righteousness fulfilled P. T. Christs rignteousness which he wrought in his own person did consist and was made up of several acts of conformity to the law these acts were all transient and are passed and gone may hundred yeares since The fruit indeed and benefit of whatsoever Christ did and suffered redounds to us who beleeve but can that which was his personal righteousness which was performed by and in his own person so many yeares agone be found in us this is impossible E. B. I will answer thee for that Christ works the same righteousness in us by his Spirit whereby we come to bear the image and likeness of Christ and this I call not our own but Christs righteousness R. G. What Christ works in us by his Spirit is our Sanctification and you will not grant any difference between Justification and Sanctification but confound them together W. F. Dost thou own a Justification by Christ secluded from the new birth and the work of sanctification R. G. I own them as two and distinct in their nature yet seclude not Sanctification from Justification as to the person justified they go alwayes together W. F. God doth not justifie persons remaining and continuing in sin he justifies from sin not in sin R. G. God justifies none in their evill and sinful practices he doth not justifie them that they should continue in sin but that being freed from sin they might become servants of rigteousness W. F. Doth Christ justifie men while sinners R. G. Christ justifies sinners as sinners I mean that every person till the act of Gods justifying passe upon him is a sinner in himself Rom. 4.5 But to him that worketh not but beleeveth on him that justifyeth the ungodly c. P. T. It would not be amisse if they would give a definition of Justification W. F. We will if ye will have the patience to hear us Upon this a third man of their company made a large discourse concerning the person justifyed and that every justifyed person was also sanctified but came not at all to the thing it self R. G. You have given a large discription of the justifyed person but have said nothing to the thing it self nor given any definition of Justification what it is W. F. If they like not ours let themselves give a definition A reasonable motion this was but such confusion arose among the people many tongues going together that no return was at present made one of the company owning I think neither party told them they were both in the truth and of the same mind if themselves knew whereabout they were and not long after the same person in midst of this vain jangling for it deserves no better name said ye stand here pecke pecke and to no purpose ye are all a company of Novices for had there been any thing of the wisdome and power of God in either of you one side would have silenced the other before this truly a home reproof to both parties though spoke after a rude manner For there was little other then a confused multitude of words Mr. Hall After a long discourse let us at last understand what you owne and where you are doe you acknowledge that Christ wrought out a righteousness for us in his owne person E. B. I do Mr. Hall And that he works a righteousness in our hearts who beleeve by his Spirit E. B. I grant this Mr. Hall And both these concurre and go together for making up our Justification E. B. Yea that is the thing I hold it is that I own Mr. Hall And that is it which we deny After this E. B. Went on according to his manner with a large discourse concerning the persons Justifyed and that they are perfectly righteous and blamelesse before the throne of God with much of the like nature R. G. Justification is an act of Gods grace obsolving and acqiting the sinner beleeving in Christ from guilt and condemnation through the redemption that is in Christ and Sanctification is that work of grace brought forth by the spirit in the heart Concerning the former we grant that all beleeving in Christ are compleate in point of Justification but not in point of Sanctification they are compleately justified but not perfectly sanctified W. F. Thou sayest that all are compleately Justified R. G. Yea all beleeving in Christ W. F. Are they so compleate that they can never sin again after their being justified R. G. They are perfectly justified and shall never come into condemnation but are not yet so perfectly sanctified as to be free from all indwelings of sin in them there are remainders of the flesh in the most upright and in many things they sin but from that word they may yet encourage their hearts If any man sin we have an Advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous c. Iohn 2.1 W. F. If they are compleate then all their sins are pardoned R. G. Yea all the sins of them that beleeve in Christ are pardoned and shall be no more remembred against them W. F. Are they justified from all sins past present and to come R. G. As to an eternall Justification with God I grant it but not in respect of actuall Justification in their own persons which is given forth onely in time W. F. An eternall Justification then persons are Justified before they are and their sin pardoned before committed R. G. In reference to the decree of God they are 2 Tim. 1.9 and also in reference to the price payed for Christ was the Lambe slaine from the beginning of the world W. F. went on making a great stirre about the word compleate and thou saidst we are compleately justified R. G. I said and will prove that all beleeving in Christ are compleately Justified Rom. 8.33.34 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of Gods Elect it is God that justifieth who shall comdemne it is Christ that is dead yea rather risen againe c. Those to whose charge nothing can be laid are compleately Justified and you see clearly that the Apostle owns it concerning the elect or all who beleeve in Christ there is none can lay any thing to their charge E. B. Christ hath fulfilled all righteousness in his own person and he works a perfect righteousness in