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A14363 A fruteful treatise of predestination, and of the deuyne prouidence of god as far forth as the holy scriptures and word of god shal lead vs, and an answer made to all the vain and blasphemous obiections that the epicures and Anabaptistes of our time canne make. Set forth dialoge wise, by Ihon Veron.; Fruteful treatise of predestination, and of the devyne providence of god. VĂ©ron, John, d. 1563. 1561 (1561) STC 24680; ESTC S119102 83,266 305

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and trouble call vpon him Psal l. and so honoure him although we be neuer so sure of our saluation throughe faithe in oure sauioure Iesu Christe yet oughte we stil when so euer we be in anye necessity or trouble to cal vpon him in truthe But yet my gentle menne did aledge Gregory vnto me which sayeth Obiectiō that thoughe we know that we be called yet we are vncertaine of oure election and so exhorteth all menne to feare and dreade hauynge this sayinge styll in his mouthe Home xxxviii Etiam si quales hodie simus sciamus quales tamen simus futuri nescimus That is to say Althoughe we know what we are at this day yet do we not knowe what we shal be This seemeth vnto me to bee cleane contrary vnto your doctrin PHILALETHES Aunswer to Gregorye Gregory did speake as thoughe the electyon of GOD were grounded vppon the woorkes and mearites of menne Whiche thing we haue proued before to be contrarye to all scryptures And therefore sithe that he hadde onlye a respect to the workes and deseruynges of menne as thoughe the election of God dyd holelye depend and hange of them it was easye for hym for to putte menne in doubte of theyr saluation and to make them to be vncertayne whether they were of the nomber of the chosen or not Whiche doctrine dothe not onlye brynge a contynuall tormente of conscience but also at lengthe dryueth menne to vtter desperatyon as it is dailye seene by experience where suche learnynge dothe take place But we haue proued al readye by many sufficient textes of the scriptures that GOD oure heauenly father wythoute anye respecte of oure owne workes or merits hath chosen vs in his son Iesu Christe afore the foundacions of the world were laid Whereby we do learne that oure election is onlye grounded vppon the mercye of God declared vs in his sonne Iesu Christ for whose sake onlye he hath chosen and ordeined vs before to bee heyres of hys heauenly kingdom as the Apostle doothe testify sayinge ii Tim. i. He hathe saued and called vs wyth an holye callinge not accordinge to oure deedes but accordynge to hys owne purpose and grace whiche was geuen vs in CHRISTE IESV before the worlde was made but is nowe declared openlye by the appearinge of oure Sauyoure Iesu Christe Hee hathe therefore of hys mere goodnesse and mercy and not for oure owne workes or merites but for hys sonne Iesu Christes sake chosen vs frely We nead not then to be in doubte of our saluation sithe that it hangeth not of the dignity or worthinesse of men but of the fre mercy of God And what greater comforte can there be vnto the afflicted consciences than to be certifyed by the infallible worde of God that theyr saluation doth lye and reast only in the gratuite and free mercy of God taken hold vpon by faithe in his sonne Iesu Christe our Lord and sauiour ALBION All thinges beinge wel considered I do perceiue now and vnderstand A shorte collection of the dysputation that goeth before that this youre doctrine is mooste true and also most comfortable and that they that wil ground our election whereby we are chosen vnto life euerlastinge vppon oure owne workes and merites as they be ennemies vnto the fre mercy of God so they do as much as in them doth lie plucke awaye from vs the certainty of our Christian faithe and also the assurance of our saluation that we haue in the merites of the death passion and bloudsheddynge of our sauior Iesu Christ And in the same error be they also that hold opinion that the true elect and chosē of god can perish which I perceiue by the aunswer that ye haue made to theyr obiections that they bee wont to make for to ouerthrow the certainty of our election to be most false and vntrue altogether But as oure election in Christe Iesu is most certain so is it impossible for vs to be certified of it by any other meane than by the calling of god which doth consist in the outwarde preaching of his word in the inward workinge of the holy ghoste wherbi he doth illuminate our hartes and testifieth vnto our spirit that we are his children felow heyres with his sonne Iesu Christ of hys heauenlye kyngdome PHI. It is euen so as ye say For all the elect chosen of god All the electe and chosen of god afore theyr callinge do go astray with the other afore their calling which is not al don at one time for som be called at one time som at an other some in their youth and som in their old age do go astray wāder in the common desert with the other do differ in nothing from the rebrobate sauing only that by the exceding great mercy goodnes of al mighty god they are preserued and kept frō vttermost perdition If ye loke vpon thē ye shal se in them the naturall corruption that we all haue drawne of our first parent Adam that the pit of vngodlines doth not shut vp his mouth vpon them it is only because the god hath alwais an eie vnto them vnto their saluatiō and holdeth his merciful hand ouer them DyDI. I haue hearde some great doctors say that they haue a certain sede of their election naturally I meane euen from theyr byrthe grafted in them whereby they are alwais stirred vp and moued vnto godlines and vnto the feare of god PH. They that say so can bring no scripture for them selues but only the imagination of their own heds again the daily experiēce teacheth vs the contrary DyDI. And what say ye of Paul Obiectiō Did he not beynge yet a Pharisey and not called to Christ liue without blame Again did not Cornelius please god wyth his praiers and almes dedes PHI. As touchinge Paule Aunswer we will not greatly striue with them for hym but touchinge Cornelius they are greatly beguiled For Act. x. it is mooste plain that he was already illumynated borne of newe and that he did only want a plainer declaratiō of the gospel But what shall they proue by these few examples that al the elect and chosen of God are alwaies ledde with the spyrite of godlinesse No more shal they be able by those fewe examples too proue the same then shewynge and declarynge the Innocencye and integrity or vertuous conuersation of Aristides Socrates Xonophon Scipio Curius Camillus and of such like they shal be able to proue thereby that all they that be lefte in the blynd ydolatrye are louers of vertue and godlyenesse What neede we many wordes We haue the scriptures that teach vs playnlye the contrarye For the estate of the Ephesians afore theyr regenetion or newe byrth whiche Paul doth describe and set fourthe in the epistell that he hath written vnto them doth declare manyfestely that there was no such sede of election in them Ye were sayth he dead through trespasses sinnes in
vnexcusable before the maiestye of GOD And wyth them we may wel comprehend those that hear the word but because that they are deafe in theyr heartes and mindes thoughe they be called yet they wil geue nether eares nor heede vnto the calling The second sort that be called do professe the Christian religion and receiue the worde Actes viii but it hathe no true roote in them As Symon Magus which being conuinced in his hart that the Gospel was true did for a time professe it but because it had no rote in him he dyd sone fall away from it Suche are they to whome the Lord doth geue his holy spirit illuminating them for a time but afterwards he doth forsake them because of theyr ingratitude and vnthankfulnes and doth strike thē with greater blindnesse The third maner of calling is both particulare and also moste effectuall For by it the Lord doth only call his electe and chosen and whome he hath ordeined before vnto life euerlastinge workinge so in them by the inwarde operation of his holi spirit that the word which is preached vnto them dothe take rote in theyr hartes and bringeth forthe frute vnto eternall lyfe He doth also by the same spirit testifye vnto them I meane vnto their spirit that they be the childrē of God and heyres of the kingdome of heauen But we wil come to the parable it self when our sauioure Iesus Christ did see Mat. xxii that the gospell was far spreade abrode and that it was despysed of manye and receiued of few he doth describe God vnto vs vnder the person of a mighty king which ordaining a solemne feaste doth sende his seruauntes into all costes for to call a great multitude vnto it But because that they whiche were fyrste bidden dyd refuse to come makinge all one excuse or other he was faine to call them that were behinde the hedges and in the Corners of the streates vnto hys feast Hetherto is the parable vnderstanded of the outward calling Afterwardes he saith that the master of the feaste whiche is none other but God him selfe dyd enter in for to see and cherish his gestes and that whome he did finde there withoute the bridegromes liuery him he did cast into vttermost darknesse where shall be wepinge and gnashynge of teethe They that with their mouthes do professe the gospel and be not inwardelye sanctified with the holy spirit of god be withoute the bridgrōes lyuerey This parte of the similitude oughte to be vnderstanded of them that wyth theyr mouthes do professe the Gospell and the true Christian faithe and so do associate and a fellowshyppe themselues with the churche and congregation of the faithful but ar not sanctified inwardlye with the holy spirit of god nor haue put on our sauioure Iesu Christe Suche spottes of his church the Lord wil not alwaies suffer but as theyr stinckinge filthinesse doth deserue he will caste them oute at lengthe We saye then with Christe that manye are called by that generall calling of God whiche pertaineth bothe to the reprobate and chosen but fewe are chosen And vnto these fewe doothe the particulare callinge of the Lorde pertaine only For it bringeth with it selfe the spirite of regeneration whiche is the earnest penye and seale of oure heauenlye enheritaunce where by oure heartes are sealed vp againste the daye of the Lorde ALBION It appeareth also that al they that be chosen shall not be saued For Obiectiō Christe oure sauioure saith I haue chosen you twelue Iohn vi and one of you is a deuel And this doth he speake of Iudas whiche was one of hys Apostles and whome he dyd sende fourth with the other to preach his Gospell and to woorke myracles for the confirmation of the same Againe where he saithe Ioh. xvii that none of them dyd pearishe that were geuen hym of the father he dothe excepte the chylde of Perdityon PHILALETHES It is to bee vnderstanded Aunswer Two māners of chusinge that there be two manners of chusinge The one whereby the Apostles were chosen to that moste worthy office of Apostleship that they were in and the other whereby they were chosen vnto life euerlastinge Therefore when Christ saith that Iudas was chosen wyth the other Apostles the same muste be vnderstanded of the office where vnto he was chosen with the other For when he speaketh of the electyon that dothe pertayne vnto life euerlasting and vnto the enheritaunce of the kingdom of heauen he doth all together exclude hym from the nomber of the chosen Iohn xiii I do not sayth he speake of you all I know whom I haue chosen Whervnto Iudas was geuen vnto Christ of his heauenly father After the same maner may we say that Iudas was geuen Christe of hys heauenlye father not for to be kept and preserued wyth the other vnto lyfe euerlastyng but for to beare the offyce of an Apostle for a tyme. Whyche appeareth to bee most true by that whiche he saythe in another place Al that my father hath geuen me sayth he shal come vnto me and him that cometh I wyll not cast oute The lyke maye be sayed of all those that for a whyle do seme to be very Apostels of oure sauioure Iesu Christ preachynge the gospell to mens thinkynge moste syncerelye and purelye but at lengthe they do cleane fall awaye from Christe and become enemyes of the worde Such were Philetus Hymeneus and Demas ii Timo. ii iiii with many other These were geuen Christ of hys heauenlye father for to be in such high rowmes and offyces for a tyme but not for to be kept vnto eternall lyfe Elles how coulde that stande where he sayeth Thys is the wyl of the father that hathe sente me Ihon. vi that I lose none of al those that he hath geue me But that I do raise thē vp again in the last dai Heareby thā may we conclude that they that be geuē vnto Christ of his father for to be felowe heires wyth him of his heauenly kingdome can neuer perishe that the place that ye aleadged ought to be vnderstanded of those that be geuen vnto Christ for to serue him for a time And of thys sorte are they that turne to their olde vomit again to their walowing in the myre ii Pet. ii or that hauing ben once lighted notwithstanding that they haue tasted of the heauenlye gifte Heb. vi and are become partakers of the holy ghost and haue tasted of the good word of God and of the power of the world to come yet do fall away at length from the knowen truth or that hauinge bene righteous for a whyle do turne awaye vnfaithfully and geue them selues to vnrighteousnesse These folke for a whyle euen tyll they be vtterlye fallen awaye from the knowen truth Eze. xviii are taken for true Chrystyans and are reckenned amonge the shepe of oure sauyoure Iesu Christe and yet they be none of them For if they