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spirit_n	ghost_n	holy_a	john_n	17,081	5	6.2026	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A63393	The Quakers rounds, or, A Faithful account of a large discourse between a party of them called Quakers viz. William Fisher and Edward Burroughs, &c with Mr. Philip Taverner, Mr. Richard Goodgroom, and Mr. M. Hall, ministers of the Gospel ... / published by William Taverner, preacher of the Word.	W. F. (William Fisher); Burrough, Edward, 1634-1662.	1658 (1658)	Wing T248; ESTC R31011	28,134	41

in opposion to Justification by works according to the law Rom. 4.2.3 And this was before Abraham had ever a Child which will clearely appear if you consult the Scriptures So that Abraham was justified by faith before he went to offer up his son Isaac he was before that act of obedience a justified person therefore not justified hereby but onely declared to be a true beleever his faith was hereby clearely manifest and no more can be drawn from this of the Apostle James if we do seriously weigh ver 18 19 20. and compare what followes with these going before And here ended this confused dispute about Justification in which point it is feared by some that those called Quakers if all of the same mind with E. B. and. W. F. have a Pope in their belly if so I heartily wish the Lord would shew them their errour recover their feet out of the snare and deliver them from the delusion I have since this Dispute met with a Book called A Standard lift up for all People The Author this E. B. there are three passages which I took notice of in it relating to JUSTIFICATION I. PAge 3. Chap. 1. towards the end of the Chapter it is said God Justifieth the Righteous and condemneth the Wicked If by justifying be meant Gods owning approving and accepting the Righteous and that the same God doth not accept but disown the Wicked in their wickedness then is it a Truth of the same stamp with that Psal 5.4 5. But if by justifying be meant that of absolving and acquiting from guilt and condemnation which is that the Apostle so often cals Justification how will it agree with that in Rom. 4.5 But to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly c. II. Page 11. Chap. 8. It is the new man that is justified not the old If by justifying be meant as before Gods owning and accepting with delight so it is true God accepts owns and delights in nothing but the new Creature in us for what is after the will of the flesh or the old man in us is the object of his loathing and shall be destroyed But if by justifying be meant in the second sence an acquitting and absolving the sinner from guilt and condemnation then how can the new man which never sinned be said to be justified vix from sin or to be acquitted from guilt and condemnation which it was never under III. Page 11. Chap. 8. lin 3. And such as are taught by Christ and guided by him in all the wayes of Truth and Righteousness are justified by him and none else not in any word or work whatsoever but in what they are led to fulfil by him What strange contradiction in the two last clauses as if what they are led to fulfil by him were not a work And here again If by being justified in what they are led to fulfil by Christ be only meant a being accepted and owned of God in the thing done It is granted that God accepts of nothing from us but what is the work of his own Spirit and Grace in us but if by being justified in what they are led to fulfil by him be meant that Justification which himself cals lin 11. of this Chapter A being cleared from condemnation in the sight of God What could the Pope himself have spoken more plain for effecting Justification by inherent Righteousness or the work of the Law wrought in us For what can that clause in what they are led to fulfil by him relate to but a conformity to the righteous holy and good Law of God And if this be our Justification to what purpose was the death of Christ For a perfect conformity to the Law of God in our own persons though not wrought in our own strength but in the strength and power of Grace the Spirit working all in us and for us is no other than the Righteousness of the Law And as to this Point ye cannot be ignorant of what the Apostle saith If Righteousness be by the Law then Christ dyed in vain Gal. 2.21 Several other Passages I have taken notice of in in this Book some contradictory others dark and doubtful as to what is the Authors aim in them PAge 4. Chap. 2. And this Christ Jesus the Son of God is the light and life of the World and hath enlightned all mankind every one that cometh into the world is lighted by him with the true light of life or condemnation And page 22. Christ Jesus the second Adam lighteth every man and all mankind that cometh into the World with the true light How do these agree with that Page 25. Chap. 19. Mans state in the first Adam in transgression is a state of perfect enmity against God and Death reigns in every man and he is possessed with blindness ignorance and unbelief c I say how do these agree unless there be granted a general restauration of all men which yet you seem to deny in Page 10. Chap. 6. where you acknowledge some to be in a state unreconciled to God and having no part nor portion in these things which belong to their peace Page 10. lin 1. Many profess them in words what others enjoy of these things but have not felt in themselves the working of the eternal Spirit neither have the witness in themselves of being restored again From this latter clause a twofold question ariseth for your words speak not forth your meaning clearly 1. Whether none are restored again but those that have the witness in themselves Or secondly Whether all are restored but some want the witness of this in themselves which you mean is doubtful Page 10. Chap. 7. in the three last lines This Religion and Worship stands in Christ Jesus the second Adam who hath lighted every man that comes into the World that all men through him might believe c. Hence this question ariseth Whether that light which is in all and every particular man is sufficient without any thing farther of speciall grace superadded to bring up every man to beleeve in Christ unto salvation or to beleeve in God by meanes of Christ 1 Pet. 1.20 Pag. 5. Chap. 3. This is the testimony of the Spirit of God and it leadeth into all truth and out of all evill all that are guided by it and it is given to be the guide and rule of life to the Children of God Whence this question for in these things he speakes darkely and doubtfully Whether the Spirit is so given to be the guide and rule of life to the Saints that they have no more need to attend upon the Scriptures Chap. 19. After many other things it follows pag. 28. towards the end And the light of Christ in every one shall give testimony to it unto which I do onely commend my self and these truths to be witnessed Can these be wittnesses to you and of the truth in you who are as you say Pag. 6. Chap. 4. ignorant of the life power and wisedome of the Creatour to leade guide and preserve them following the counsell of their own heart which is evill altogether c. or can such judge between light and darkness between truth and falsehood who are possessed with blindness igorance and unbeleife and wholly imperfect to receive the things of Gods kingdom or to act any thing for God acceptable to him pag. 25. Chap. 19. Pag. 17. Chap. 13. It is truely said That the word of God was in the heart and mouth of the servant of God and that from it they spake forth the Scriptures and then followes As they were moved by the holy ghost through the eternal Spirit Do you make the Holy Ghost and eternall Spirit two or what do you mean by Holy Ghost it is indeed a usuall word among us though there be little to bear up the use of it more then long custome but by Holy Ghost we mean the holy and eternall Spirit what you mean wants an interpreter to find out and make known who seeme to make them two because you say by the holy Ghost through the eternall Spirit Pag. 10. Chap. 7. This is true religion c. where is given forth the same description of true Religion for substance with that of the Apostle James 1.26.27 and towards the end of the page it is said This is acceptable and well pleasing to God above all words and outward conformity and set times and dayes and observances c. This is subscribed to as honest and true and yet may a snake lie in this grasse The question therefore offers it self viz. Whether a doing the greater things of the law is acceptable where the lesse are neglected when it is said I will have mery not sacrifice or mercy rather then sacrifice which is the meaning God did not so require mercy as wholly to take off from Sacrifice onely hereby is declared that God prefers that before this which is true unto this day God requires to speake the truth and do the truth in all things to do unto all men as a man would be done unto to love God with all our heart and our neghbour as our selves c. But hence will not follow an abolition of all institute Worship consisting in the use of such Ordinances which Christ hath appointed and which were in use among the Saints in the primitive times God indeed prefers the former before this but stil requires us to mind according to that of Christ These things ye ought to have done and not to leave the other undone FINIS

wicked men spake P. T. The Scripture consists of two parts An Historical and a Doctrinall part The former is a true record of severall things spoken and done by severall persons and upon severall occasions and here we grant that there are some things recorded which are in themselves false The Pharisees spake concerning Christ say we not well thou art a Samaritan and hast a Devil the thing as spoken by the Pharisees was false blasphemy against the Son of God and we also meet with many things left upon record in the Scriptures which the Devill and wicked men spake falsely but then we must distinguish between the thing related and the relation of it the relation is true though the thing as spoken by the Devill and wicked men is false the Scripture doth truly relate some things which were falsely seoken And concerning the Doctrinall part of the Scripture It is a true record of divine Truth concerning things to be beleeved and done having its rise from the pure Fountain the Spirit of truth E. B. We say and grant the same P. T. Where then lyes the difference Will. Fisher He was one of them called Quakers we all hear themselves acknowledge the Scriptures a declaration of falsehood as well as of truth and how then can this be the word of God P. T. Friend do not mistake nor goe about to pervert my words I distinguished the Scriptures into an Historical and doctrinal part And concerning the former I doe not say it is a false Declaration although some things declared therein are false The Scripture is a true Declaration of whatsoever it Declares and nothing of falsehood can be charged upon it it truly Declares those false things which some wicked ones spake the falsehood is theirs who spake it not the Scripture that relates it some of the Devils words which he upon severall accasions spake are there related but no where through the whole Scriptures are any of the Devils Doctrins taught but every where declared against and farther those falsehoods and blasphemies which the Devill and many wicked men spake which are there recorded are not the greatest part of what is written but that which is upon accasion here and there mentioned and the mentioning of these things is for our benefit and advantage that knowing what a one the Devill is we might more carefully watch against his wiles and take heed of associating our selves with such who are Children like this their Father least they prove a snare to us And concerning the Doctrinall part of Scripture you heard me call it a true record of divine Truth it is truth both in the declaration and in the thing declared and here I shall adde farther First That these Scriptures are no other then the language of the Spirit of truth which spake in those holy men of God who were the Pen-men thereof Secondly It is the same Spirit which dwels and speaks in the Saints now with that which dwelt and spake in the Saints in former dayes Thirdly The Spirit is so one and ever the same with it self that it never contradicts or speaks things contrary to it self E. B. we grant all this and say the same P. T. Then so farre we are one And from this grant we may adde though it was not then hinted that what soever Spirit brings any other or teaches contrary Doctrin to what was preached by Christ the Prophets and Apostles and left upon record in the holy Scriptures for our learning is not of God but of the Devil not the Spirit of Christ but of delusion in what garbe soever it comes E. B. I say no more then what the Scripture it self sayes viz. it is a Diclaration of things that were beleeved Luke 1.1 For as much as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a Declaration of those things which are most surely beleeved among as ye see here it is called a Declaration of things that were beleeved this is Scripture language a Declaration of things which were beleeved P. T. You own it a Declaration of things that were beleeved in former dayes but do you own it a Declaration of things that are to be beleeved by us in this our day things that we are to beleeve E. B. Yea which we are to beleeve but still I say and I pray all take notice I say the Scripture is not the Word of God but a Declaration the Scripture is but writing and it is not the writing which is ihe Word but the thing written of P. T. Since ye are so shy of calling the Scriptures the word of God will ye own them the words of God the words of the Spirit of truth which spake in those servants of God who were the Pen-men thereof nothing was answered directly to this but a multitude of words heaped up together about a Diclaration of and the thing written of of many words but little matter why they should be so shy of calling them at least the words of God I cannot say unless they were afraid least such a grant should have made us too neare together For Christ useth both expressions John 5.24 Verely verely I say unto you he that heareth my word c. Chap. 8.31 If ye continue in my Word c. And in Mark 8.38 whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my word before this adulterous and sinfull generation c. John 8.47 He that is of God heareth Gods words John 15.7 If ye abide in me and my words abide in you c. and Iohn 14.23 where by word and words is meant one and the same thing viz. That Doctrine of divine and heavenly truth which was preached by Christ and afterwards by his Apostles the Spirit teaching them all things and bringing all things to their rememberance whatsoever Christ had said unto them John 14.26 this divine and heavenly Doctrin which was preached by Christ and his Apostles and afterwards delivered in writing and left upon record to this day in the Scriptures we call the Word or Words of God E. B. The thing written of I call the Word of God but not the Scripture which is no other then meer writing P. T. We distinguish betweene the writing and the thing written it is not the writing as it is meer inke and paper but the thing written which we own the Word of God W. F. Let us then at last se wherein we agree and wherein we differ we say Christ is the Word of God so say they we say the Scriptures are they which testifie of Christ so say they we say the Scripture is a Declaration of things to be beleeved so say they we say the writing is not the word of God so say they P. T. We say that Christ is the essential word and the Scriptures the Declarative Word of God not the meer writing but the thing written that divine and heavenly Doctrin which is contained in these writings is the pure word of truth given in by

those who receive and beleeve in him whereby they stand faultless and without spot before God R. G. Now you clearly own Justification by inherent righteousness and agree fully with your lelf in your former assertion that no man is justified farther then sanctified E. B. Inherent righteousness is no Scripture terme and we desire ye would keep to the form of wholesome words R. G. It is clearly implyed if not expressed in the Scriptures and is not a term of any difficult understanding E. B. Ye are Schollars and reade bookes we are men brought up at the Plow-tayle and understand not scholarly terms P. T. My Friend this was a digression and the whole was little other There are three books which I read in cheif and I think I may speake the same for others The booke of the Scriptures The booke of my own heart and experience thridly The book of Christian observation And I have observed this day on both sides much of selfishness and this mixt with some degree of passion there are few if any can say I am free some discovering it in words others in carriages E. B. Did after this multiply many words concerning our own works being weake and imperfect but the work of Christ perfect and glorious and that we are not Justified by our own works of righteousness but by the work of righteousness which Christ works for us R. G. You hold Justification to be by those workes of rigteousness which Christ works in us directly contrary to what the Apostle affirmes viz. That we are justified by faith not by works E. B. I utterly deny all our own works and righteousness in the matter of Justification R. G. The Apostle denies al works according to the Law whatsoever Rom. 3.28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by Faith without the Works of the Law W. F. Dost thou deny all Works in point of Justification R. G. We are Justified by Faith without the Works of the Law W. F. Thou sayest we are justified by Faith and yet deniest all Works in the matter of Justification is not Faith a Work R. G. Faith Justifies only instrumentally it is not the meritorious but the instrumental cause of our Justification neither doth it Justifie instrumentally as our work or a work wrought in us by the Spirit but with respect to its object Christ And let me here add a word or two not then spoken 1. Justification by Grace by Christ by Faith is all one and the same Justification unto which all these concur as several causes respectively 2. We must distinguish between the merit or proper debt of Works and the bare performance of something called in the Scripture by the name of a work The former the Scripture every where denies in the point of Justification but concerning the latter the performance of something called and owned in the Scripture under the name of a work it doth not deny yea it expresly cals Faith a work John 6.29 and this is required unto Justification 3. Faith hath a hand in this business of Justification no otherwise than instrumentally 4. Faith doth not Justifie instrumentally by vertue of any inherent worth or excellency in it self more than in Love or any other fruit of the Spirit but by vertue of divine Institution as God hath appointed it to serve for this end John 6.40 W. F. I shall prove and according to Scripture that we are justified not by Faith onely but by Works also And it may be if I read the words out of the Scripture ye will have the more patience to hear me And reading certain verses in the latter part of the second Chapter of James he with much carefulness notes that in vers 24. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified and not by Faith onely having read to the end he then carries on his Discourse Ye see they are the very words of the Apostle and I hope ye will not deny them we speak no other than according to the form of wholesome words that by works a man is justified and not by faith only but thou sayest by faith onely and to prove this truth the Apostle ye all see brings two eminent examples the one of Abraham the other of Rahab what can be spoken more plainly and proved more strongly that by works a man is justified and not by faith only so was Abraham so was Rahab justified and so are we justified at this day by works and not by faith onely By works not our own works according to the Law but the work of God in us our own works which we our selves have wrought or do work are weak and imperfect but the works of God in us are all perfect and glorious yea meritorious we are not justified by ought our selves have done or can do all our own work of righteousness is worthless and imperfect but the works of God in us are of infinite vertue and worth Mr. Hall Will you own that the works of righteousness which are wrought in us by the Spirit are meritorous W. F. I say it is a perfect and a glorious work which God works in us P. T. And you said meritorious no farther reply was made to this it was it may be no more then a slip of the tongue I judge it no worse R. G. The Apostle in this latter part of the Chap. dealing with some who turned grace into wantonness and boasted of their faith without works endeavours to convince such of their great mistake and proves that true faith is never separated from works of righteousness For though faith alone justifies yet that faith which is alone doth not justifie true faith being ever fruitfull and working by love W. F. The Apostle speaks plain Was not Abraham our father justified by works ver 21. likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works ver 25. P. T. The Apostle speaks of the Justification of our faith before men not the Justification of our persons before God fruitfulness in works of righteousness is a proof of a true faith the Apostles design in this latter part of the Chap. is to shew the difference between a true and a counterfeit a dead a living faith W. F. The Apostle affirms that both Abraham and Rahab the harlot were justified through works R. G. I shall make it appear from Scripture that Ahraham was justified by faith before his going about to offer up his son Isaac which is that eniment work the Apostle here makes mention of W. F. And was Rahab the harlot Justified before her righteous work of receiving the messengers and sending them out another way R. G. I speak of Abraham and in the same way that Abraham was justified was Rahab justified also viz. by faith which was declared by works And concerning Abraham it is said Gen. 15.6 He beleeved in the Lord and it was counted to him for righteousness Here is Abrahams Justification by faith clearely asserted and owned by the Apostle