estranged thereunto In these dayes did they make a Calf and offered sacrifice to the Idol and rejoyced in the works of their own hands section 62 T.L. VVhether those extraordinary Officers were not styled Prophets Eph. 4 11. 1 Cor. 12.28 Answ Though all in the Primitive Churches were not Prophets yet was it lawful in those true Churches though forbidden in yours for any man to Prophesie without exception or restraint For thus saith Paul Ye may all prophesie one by one 1. Cor. 14.31 and in Vers 1. he saith Follow after Charity and desire spirituall gifts but rather that ye may prophesy Also Vers 5. I would that ye spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesy Hence it is manifest that Paul permitted any one to prophesy and not only so but secondly also exhorteth them all indifferently to desire the gift of prophesy not the office And thirdly He declares his willingness that they * Declaring himselfe to be of the same mind with Moses who desired that all the Lords people were Prophets all might prophesy c. Now in Vers 3. he explaineth what he meaneth by prophesying namely A speaking unto men to edification exhortation and comfort and this by revelation of the spirit as may be gathered of Vers 30 Let us now erect a comparison between the speaking and order that were in the Churches of Christ of old time and the speaking and order such as it is that are in your meetings at this day 1. In those it was lawful and according to order for All to speak In yours only for One to speak 2. In those they did speak by revelation of God In yours they speak by imagination of their own brain 3. In those they did speak for edification exhortation and comfort of others In yours for Augmentation Decimation and benefit of themselves section 63 T. L. Whether when the Apostle saith that all may prophesy he doth yet suffer a woman to speak in the Church c Ans Ioel Chap. 2. Vers 28 prophesyed that not their sons only but also their daughters should prophesy c. Where To whom Doth not prophesying serve for them which believe 1. Cor 14 22 And if to one believer such prophetesses might rightly prophesy why not also to two to three or more If in a place where these beleivers did or do not usually meet why not likewise in a-place where they usually meet If out of a house why not as well in a house To a Church in a house Philemon 2 Or say ye that the number and place do make and give being to the Church of God Define unto us then how many persons be necessarily required to the making up of a Church and also what place it behoveth to be that with such number must concur to the so making up of a Church section 64 T. L. Whether he doth not also exclude private members from intruding on that great office of prophesying when he demands Are all Teachers c. Ans What private members doth Paul exclude from prophesying when speaking to the Church he saith Ye may all prophesy 1. Cor 14 31 Neither doth he only permitt or rather declare it to be lawfull that all may prophesy but desireth also that they all might have the gift of prophesy Vers 5. And finally exhorteth the whole Church indistinctly that they desire the gift of prophesy as is noted before Agreeable to this mind of Paul was also that of Moses I would saith he that all the Lords people were Prophets and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them Numb 11.29 Where also it is to be noted that though Eldad and Medad had never been counted or acknowledg'd as Prophets but were private members of the Iewish Church yet did they prophesy and that in the Camp not waiting for the triall or approbation of man nor for any Solmn Investiture into the office of Prophets It was sufficient authority to them to prophesy that the spirit of the Lord rested upon them Vers 26. Now Moses when he heard thereof yet not yet by what warrant they prophesied what did he do Verily he set not the rude multitude upon them to beat them pull them tear them neither charged he the civil Officers to apprehend them and carry them away for endlesse Imprisonment None of these things I say did Moses But saith he Enviest thou for my sake would God that all the Lords people were prophets c. It s plain therefore neither Paul nor Moses to have been of your Teachers mind to forbid any to prophesy but as far distant from you herein as in most other matters also as namely becomes the true servants of God with Satans Ministers compared section 65 T. L. How can they i. e. how can they lawfully and as to God acceptably preach except they be sent Rom. 10 15. Ans Apply this place unto your selves Ye Preach for hire and Divine for money ye are not the men that bring glad tidings who deny men may be perfect and free from sin in this life that publish peace who bring along with ye the black Threats of war and manifold miseries against all that will not put into your mouthes Neither do ye publish salvation but keep men ever learning that never come to the knowledge of the truth and the end of faith Understandeth not the Apostle in this place such a Sending as his also was who was not sent of men neither by men but by Jesus Christ And though the operations of the spirit be divers yet do they not all alike proceed from the spirit Did not the same spirit that made heretofore Apostles make Pastors also And dare you that call your selves Pastors of Churches pretend to have received such office and quality immediately of the spirit I have seldome known any of you so impudent Wherefore your operation is not by the same God neither is your gift by the same spirit neither your Administration by the same Lord Jesus 1. Cor. 12.4.5 6. And if no man can say that Jesus is the Lord but by the Holy Ghost How then do you talk whole hours of Jesus without the Holy Ghost But if ye yet challenge to have the Holy Ghost then make it to appeare by shewing the fruits thereof such are love joy peace long-suffering gentlenesse goodnesse faith meeknesse temperance are these things in you or so much as the very shadowes or counterfits thereof rather bring you not forth such fruits as be clean contrary to these Let the spiritual man be judge section 66 T. L. Whether it be not usuall in our Churches to give liberty to severall Ministers to exercise their gifts and discharge their office successively one by one decentlie and in order Ans Ye seem to have propounded this your practice and order as having some resemblance and agreement with the practise and order which Paul did advise to be observed in the Church at Cornith But even in this point do ye greatly differ and swerve
REPLIES Made to the ANTIQUERIES OF Thomas Lye who writes himself Minister of the Gospel at Chard WHEREIN The Parish-Ministers Call and Maintenance and divers other matters now in controversie are handled and debated By H. L. a friend to the people of God called Quakers Yea they are greedy dogs that can never have enough and they are shepherds that cannot understand they all look to their own way every one for his gain from his quarter Isa 56.11 For both Priest and Prophet are prophane yea in my house have I found their wickedness saith the Lord Jer. 23.11 Thus saith the Lord concerning the Prophets that make my people erre that bite with their teeth and cry peace and hee that putteth not into their mouths they even prepare war against him Therefore night shall be unto you that yee shall not have a vision and it shall be dark unto you that yee shall not divine and the Sun shall go down over the Prophets and the day shall bee dark over them Then shall the Seers be ashamed and the Diviners confounded Mic. 3.5,6,7 London Printed for Dan. White at the seven Starrs in Pauls Church-Yard 1657. To the PARISH-TEACHERS OF ENGLAND Friends REfuse not to think upon that day wherein ye must give an account of your doings when not others tongues but your own self-consciences shall be your accusers and witnesses when not a fallible and corrupt minded man but God that cannot erre shall be Judge Then will you not have leave to plead what cunningly may be said but shall what is really known confess Then will no witty gloss deceive nor nice distinction have place Now will ye be pained as a woman in travel and paleness will spread over your faces But when especially shall come to your remembrance those whom ye now do scorn vex and bitterly persecute the harmless holy Lambs of Christ Then alas what will ye do how will yee beare sustain how can yee the presence offered of such a thought as this Now surely will your hearts be pierced as with arrowes and the horrors of death will clasp you round and to dye ye shal wish but death shall flee from you Thus I say will it be with you except ye repent in time H. L. Replies made to certain Antiquaeries propounded by Thomas Lye who stiles himself Minister of the Gâ—spel at Chard c. THomas Lye Answers returned to these Quaeres by one of those Ministers of the Gospel who in scorn are called Parish-Teachers c. section 1 Ans The very beginning of this work is blemish't with an untruth for I did not so call them in scorn but did purposely choose that word as the which I judged less apt to give them cause of distast Yet this is a very meet foundation for that which is afterward built upon it so like they be one to other T.L. To be left at the house of T. B. of Ash who is desired in the fear of God seriously to read and meditate on 1 Joh. 2.19 They went out from us because they were not of us c. section 2 Ans Yes truly they were of you so long as the earthly in them prevailing they could take Tythes c. sprinkle Infants sing David's Psalms in meter and wanton sounds but after that the eye of their understandings was opened and they turned from these Vanities to worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth then went they out from you indeed and ceased to be of your number being taken into a better society even in like sort and for like cause as just Lot with his family went out of wicked Sodom then ready to be seised on with Gods fiery vengeance wholly to be destroyed And now do they stand as so many witnesses against your false Call and manifold deceits and evil practices what they know what they felt in themselves the same do they now against you testifie Add hereunto this also That whiles they were of you they were as so many Lillies among the Thorns for sundry good parts and vertues which are wanting in you whom they left T.L. Whether those whom God hath competently qualified with Ministerial knowledge 1 Tim. 4.6 and utterance Col. 4.3 and who are solemnly set apart to the Office of the Ministry with prayer tasting and imposition of hands Acts 4.23 1 Tim. 4.14 5.22 may be justly charged to run when they are not sent section 3 Answ He that is in darkness himself can badly see how for to turn others to the light and who knoweth not whither himself doth go an ill guide will he certainly prove in shewing the way to others And who knoweth not God * Ipse notipsum himself how can he well teach others to know him And yet such are all they that hate their brother that sin that are not in the New Covenant and such for these causes are you also who are called of men both Ministers and Masters and this is even manifest to the children of light and shall moreover in the progress of these Answers as occasion is offered be openly shewed and declared What prayer and fasting had ye when ye were ordained Ministers and what imposition of hands was not the prayer made by them whose very prayer was an abomination to the Lord and the fasting was it not of them who fast for strife and debate Also the hands imposed upon you then were they of other then a crimson colour as having been stained with the blood of the Saints and Martyrs of Jesus But to what purpose cited the Anti-querist all these Scriptures as though the usurpers of the late devised Ordination were men of the same account gifts and power as were the holy Apostles who were filled with the Holy Ghost who did and spake as they were thereof moved who had the gift of tongue and other miracles these do we know and own But what are your Ordainers Or came at any time the voice of the holy spirit to them saying Seperate ye me such or such a one for the work of the Ministry Also what gift do they give by their laying on of hands which is to be stirred up Is it the spirit of Power of Love and of a sound mind yet such a spirit was received by or with the imposition of the Apostles hands 2 Tim. 1.6,7 see also Acts 8.17 19.6 Moreover the gift mentioned in the fore-cited 1 Tim. 4 14. was so given Timothy by prophesie with the laying on of the hands of the Presbyterie Are also your gifts if any thus received Is the Spirit of Prophesie assisting or conversant in your feat of Ordination Do your Elders at any time declare the truth of their Office and Calling by healing of the sick Iam. 4. And yet was this gift and faculty annexed or incident to the Office of Elders who such were truly and indeed Now seeing these things are not so with them with what kind of impudence then or rather blasphemous arrogance do they
may it be interpreted as the voluntary bound of your malice as is well known section 25 T.L. Shall all those c. Ans The way to heaven is but one and a very narrow one it will at no hand receive the vast and spreading Compass of Tithes Glebe Augmentations together with the love of the world and lusts of the flesh these in no wise can be gotten in the waie 's so strait section 26 T.L. Whether supposing that Timothy followed the command of Paul viz. in meditating on that Word which he was to deliver c. as also in studying in the discharge of his Ministry c. he might therefore be justly charged to speak visions of his own heart Answ Timothy vvas an holy man and holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost 2 Pet. 1.21 Also had Timothy received a gift which was given by Prophesie with the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery 1 Tim. 4.14 and the spirit of power of love and of a sound mind Now dare ye say even he that is most arrogant among ye That such a gift such a spirit as was in Timothy ye also have received The Bee can convert into honey such Juices as she gathereth from Flowers The Spider contrariwise is said to turn the same Juices into poison Pick out the meaning Timothy when he cited the sayings of other holie men wel knevv vvhat he spake his understanding and spirit also being sutable and commensurate with the things he said Neither did his life give his Doctrine the lie section 27 T.L. Whether those that so far slight the Majestie of the great God and his Divine Oracles as upon pretext of immediate inspiration to rush upon them vvithout premeditation c. Answ Suppose ye that they vvho spake as the spirit gave them utterance Acts 2.4 as they were moved by the Holy Ghost 2 Pet. 1.21 in whom the Spirit of the Father did speak without their taking thought how or what to speak Matth. 10.19,20 I say did all these premeditate what they should say and yet vvere they not therefore slighters of the Majestie of the great God and his Divine Oracles as impiouslie this quaery by consequent supposeth them to have been Or think ye that they who were Christs Embassadors did by long premeditation study engender and compose those Messages which as Christs Embassadors they did deliver to others The Woman that speaketh not without taking thought aforehand what and how to speak here duty is not to teach others but her self to learn in silence Go learn what this meaneth section 28 To the following quaery concerning reading quoting and making use for edification the Books of the Prophets Apostles c. I answer That he that is duly called to this honor may take it but unto you thus saith the Lord What have ye to do to take my word into your mouths while ye hate to be reformed Or can ye being evil speak good things Or can ye prophesie when the Spirit of the Lord never resteth upon you It was not for every one to bear the Ark that had a shoulder neither yet is it lawful to every one to say The Lord liveth although he have a tongue and a voluble one too left he be found a transgressor even in speaking that thing which is true because not commanded or nor meetly qualified thereunto section 29 T. L. Whether these quaeries which you sent us were immediately inspired or rather Whether there were not a conspiracie among you for the inventing and penning of them c. Ans The Author of those quaeries pretended not himself to be a Minister of the Gospel but did direct them indeed to such as say they are Ministers and are not but are found lyars Rev. 2.2 Neither was there any the least conspiracie among us for inventing and penning those quaeries neither were they glean'd out of the Papers and Pamphlets of any seducing Leaders Ye thought we were such one 's as your selves but our wayes are not like yours T.L. Whether it be an Argument of covetousness in an humble and orderlie waie to desire opportunitie libertie countenance and maintenance from a Christian Magistrate for the comfortable discharge of our gifts and abilities Answ A Christian Magistrate will readily give opportunity liberty and countenance to the Ministers of Christ for to discharge their Ministerial gifts and abilities though by them never hereunto desired will he forbid or restrain them or else shall he be no Christian Magistrate but rather an Antichristian And as for maintenance that will he also provide them if their heavenly Father as Christ hath promised feed them not Matth 6.26 But friends if ye seek first of all the kingdom of God and the righteousnesse thereof though you never in this humble and orderlie waie desire of the Magistrate food and raiment all these things shall be added unto you But you by not believing the promises of God but seeking after all these things do openlie bewray of what generation ye are for after all these things do the heathen seek Mat. 6.32 And here by the waie I cannot but this observe That you who with such open confidence claim to your selves the glorious titles of Ministers and Embassadors of Christ do yet reckon your selves it effect to be less regarded of God then the very Fowls of the air for these the heavenly Father and not the Magistrate feedeth and rayeth too Matth 6.26 Here also I do require of you to shew any one example in the New-Testement or any thing like an example where the Ministers of Christ did ever once sue the civil Magistrate for any of these things mentioned in the quaery But hereof more hereafter section 31 Obj There is as much equity for a publike maintenance to be allowed to the Ministers of the Gospel now as there was herotofore to the Tribe of Levi under the Law Ans 1 The Levites were forbidden to have any Inheritance among the people Numb 18.25 Ans 2 The tithes under the Law were not onelie for the sustenance of the Tribe of Levi but also of the stranger the fatherlesse and the widow that they might eat and be filled Deut. 26.12.13 Deut. 14.29 So that the store-house for Tythes mentioned Mal. 3 19. had far greater allyance and resemblance to Hospitals and Alms-houses then to the called Ministers Parsonage-Barnes and Places of receit c. An. 3. The man and his house were also to eat of the tythes or the proceed thereof Deut. 14.26 An. 4 The year of tything among the Iews was on the third year Deut. 26.12 Deut. 14.28 An. 5 The Owner of the tythable Lands was to lay up the tythes within his gates Deut 14 28 And not the Levite to carry them Captive into his own private Barnes as now the called Ministers use to do from whence as to the relief of the stranger the fatherlesse and the widow with many of them there is no more return then is redemption
for them and go when he bids them go or all the while they are before him or elsewhere do they do him any harme in Body Goods or Name Did they ever break prison or escape out of Custody And for all those injuries they received suffered at the Magistrates hands which for multitude cannot be numbered did they ever so much as seek for satisfaction or amends against him Now name ye unto us on the other hand of all your Party one only man if you can whom ye may dare to match and parallel with these men for true Christian meekness and patience so bearing all kind of wrongs and as touching the Magistrate and Authority for very friendliness and exact obedience These of all men else in the world can better take wrong then give it Matth. 18.22 These are they alone that can forgive their brothers offences though again and again repeated though even unto seventy times seven they do at length amount In these finally now after long death and utter oblivion is the true Christian spirit and perfect mind revived again and unto mankind restored No marvel is it then if they hear like slanders and reproaches and the same entertainment do find and â—eel with the men of the world as also their Lord and Example Christ Jesus did before them He before them was accused to have a Devil to break and subvert the Law and Religion to have spoken blasphemy and many like crimes and misdemeanors to be guilty of And the servant is not above his Lord neither must the Disciple expect to fare better then his Master did before him But it 's like you intend their not putting off the hat and refusing to swear to be this opposition and rising up against Authority c. if so then it seems by your account that Mordecai also a far better Jew than any or your Sect are Christians was guilty of like opposition and rising up against Authority for that he in like sort refused to bow to or to rise before or to do any reverence at all to Haman the next man in dignity degree to the King who also had commanded Mordecai that he should reverence Haman and that under such a penalty as threatned death to no fewer then to all the Jews in his Kingdom But I ask What is Authority the worse or how is it more empaired by a mans keeping on his Hat before the Magistrate then if he should put it off Suppose that no man at all would put off his Hat to another shew us now what mischief or harm would by this means befall Authority especially if they were in all things else equally obedient and conformable to Authority as are the people called Quakers Again what is Authority the worse if men will not swear at all Can civil Authority at no hand subsist without mens yeilding obedience to the pride of man and disobeying the Law of God Now so confident I am of our cause that to your own very conscience I appeal to say who they be that oppose and rise up against Authority both in Church and State whether your â—riends or ours Yours at mid-day and in open place doubt not to strike kick pull hale drag and imprison men of rare innocency and of excellent vertues that unto them had done no violence that do not provoke them so much by any unseemly word or gesture that being harmed of them do no harm to them again finally that expose themselves also both unto all these yet farther sufferings for their souls good who thus misuse them And all these things have your friends doue without either Judge Witness or so much as Accuser Tell me now what is this to be deem'd but a kind of Rebellion and broad-fac't Contempt against the Laws of this Nation and the Magistrate thereof But what had these sufferers done even this Something being revealed to them from the Lord they spake the same in all soberness he that first spake having ended his speech and this in obedience to the Lord and according to the Scriptures 1 Cor. 14.29 30,31 And again are not they the very men that oppose Authority in Christs Church who break his Laws and Commandments daylie who drink down iniquity as an Ox drinketh water and glory in their shame and such be most of your friends and followers Are these men like to be such great friends unto and supporters of the Churches Authority Indeed without these your Synagogues cannot stand T.L. Where are those warlike preparations where those conspiracies for devouring of them that differ from us in Religion Ans Read but the Relations of the late Wars in Scotland and specially of Christopher â—…oves â—onspiracy and there shalt thou find where the warlike preparations were Read also the Law or Bill made and contrived by the Assembly of Divines so called and by rhem recommended to the Parliament and there wilt thou find the conspiracies for devouring of them that differ from you in Religion Moreover what may we term those many Petitions that by the men of your order were not long ago sent to the Parliament surely the aim and intent thereof was for devouring more persons than only James Nayler and his Adherents let the effects thereof be witness Look also on the children that since are born and deny if thou mayest That a Priest was their Father Who can it doubt that shall have once viewed and noted well their faces So full of black lines they be and signatures of malice verily their sullen and mischievous countenance will not bear to be guessed that they came and took nature of other blood then which runs in your very veins Pilate indeed condemned Christ but 't were the Priesthood that laid the plot aforehand These these were the men that not only as Authors did devise shape and prescribe to others the means method and order of betraying and killing Christ but also as Actors themselves they did and executed many things against him These ministred as it were to the Ship in which was imbarqued this so nefarious design both Wind for the motion and Art and Counsel for the steerage thereof and conduct Be they any whit better now who bear the same Name Oh how much worse Those that is to say the Jewish Priests had for their proceedings the countenance of a Law these do all things herein * i.e. Instrument of Government contrary to the Law Those killed not Jesus till above thirty years old these would have stifled him in the Womb. Those in one body of flesh only these in thousands Those for putting end to and crossing their way of Worship these for very practising and being what themselves profess and pretend to be In sum Those though they were the worst of all Jews seem yet to have been much better then they who would be counted the very best of Christians section 16 T. L. Whether it be a sin to endeavor to take the Foxes that spoil the Vines Cant.
sinning and so never sin But if thou say its impossible so to resist and that he must needs give way to temptations and so commit sin Then is this not to be counted a sin which thus is not willingly committed but as an enforced passion and is of the same accompt with a Rape which a woman may suffer without any guilt of sin section 52 T.L. Whether though none of our Hearers in this life either are or can be free from the reliques and remainders of sin Ro. 7.23,24 yet whether many of them are not perfectly freed from the condemnation of sin Rom 8 1 33,34 yea so far from the dominion and power of sin Rom 6 14 that though sin be in them yet they are not in sin but that we may comfortably believe that testimony of them which the Scripture gives of Iob Iob 1 1. That they feare God and eschew evil And that notwithstanding their human frailties and infirmities yet neverthelesse their hearts as the heart of Asa was are perfect all their dayes 2. Chron. 15.17 so perfect as to be sincere and upright Answ Concerning the righteousnesse and perfection of your Hearers I Answer That by their fruits they are known And if they be not free from sin then not dead to sin and so under the Law and not under grace Rom. 7.6 Rom. 6 18 22 In Rom. 3 23,24 Paul declareth his warring estate at which time he was carnal sold under sin verse 14 brought into the captivity to the law of sin verse 23 At which time he also cryeth out Oh wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from the body of this death But the same Paul in other places doth witness a far different estate from this for thus he saith When we were in the flesh verse 5 Ye are not in the flesh Rom. 8.9 For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death Rom. 8 2 How can we that are dead to sin live any longer therein Rom. And if Christ be in you the body is dead because of sin Rom. 8.10 See also Rom. 7.6 From these and many other places that might have been alleaged it is most evident That Paul in this seventh Chapter to the Romans treateth of his warfare of the condition he then was in while yet he was not wholly dead to sin nor had yet obtained the victory over the carnal part and so was not yet delivered from under the thunders and tempest of Sinai's condemnation section 53 T.L. Whether any of you received the mystery of Christ by Revelation the same way that Paul did who received it by Christs speaking to him in the Hebrew tongue compare Eph. 3.3,4,5 with Acts 26.14 Answ This seemeth to me a very silly quaere as though the language in which God speaketh when he calls any one to the Ministery or other service were of any consideration or moment as in respect to the validity of such a Call and authority thereby received Let the Reader compare these two Scripturers in the quaere and he shall find the latter end of this question yet worse than the beginning section 54 T.L. Whether those faithful men at Ephesus to whom Timothy committed those things that he had heard of Paul 2 Tim. 22. and 3.14 And whether those Elders that were ordained in Creet by Titus whom Paul left there for that purpose Tit. 1.5 might not be truly stiled Ministers made by Jesus Christ i. e. by Christs appointment though they were not Apostles Prophets or Evangelists Answ 1. To that of Timothy I Answer 1. They were to be faithful men 2. It follows not That this committing of things heard c unto them did make and constitute such men ipso facto Christs Ministers 3. Timothy was able to judge who were fit and able To teach others also Did such a man or men as Timothy was give any of you commission to teach others Of this before Answ 2. Neither doubt I but Titus had good Authority to Ordain those Elders so as the place importeth And had your Ordainers as good also I should as little doubt theirs too Answ 3. If your Ordainers had Ordained such Ministers as Paul there describeth and appoints to be Ordained Tit. 1.6,7,8,9,10 I believe I should readily own and embrace them For such had been blameless sober just holy temperate and not given to Filthy Lucre c. which are such vertues and graces we cannot yet see in any of you no not though we stand never so near you Whereas the contrary vices are so vigorous in you that you yield a bad scent wherever you come with them that have senses incorrupt to smell it Answ 4 And is it not rather to be said That this ordaining of Elders was not a constituting of Ministers simply but an assigning or appointing of them that were such before to some new and special or particular charge or service The word is as well if not better englished Settle Place Also this sence the cohering words do favour In every City He saith not of such or such a place or Church nor yet Elders simply Finally It 's here to be remembred what kind of Ordination was in use in those Primitive times For this see Sect. 3. section 55 T.L. Whether Christs promise That he would be with his Apostles unto the end of the World Matth 28.19,20 can be any otherwise made good then in his being present with ordinary Pastors that should succeed in the Church to the end of the world Answ If the place be so to be understood as the Quaerent taketh it then where were those Pastors and Successors to the Apostles and how was God with them for so many hundreds or years even during all the time of Popish Apostacy which began even in the Apostles age But your main business is to prove your selves to be true Pastors of Christ which ye never can do so long as ye continue Hirelings See Iohn 10.12 section 56 T.L. Whether ordinary Pastors and Teachers are not as well said to be given for the Work of the Ministry c as well as Apostles Prophets Evangelists Eph 4 11,12 and that till we all come to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ vers 13. which is not cannot be till the end of the world compare Ephes 4.11,12,13 with 1 Cor. 12.28 Answ 1 I deny your distinction of Pastors into ordinary and extraordinary taking the word Pastor as distinct from Apostle c This is your case ye are asham'd to claim to your selves the name of Apostle or Pastor in a Scripture sense which you seem to call extraordinary This one name therefore ye craftily divide into two that being driven from the possession of the one i. e. exttaordinary ye may yet as a reserve have the other to flye to imitating herein after a sort those Spirits that being commanded to go out of the man prayed they might have leave
from the right patern and fouly misse of your mark For 1. The men that you suffer to preach in your meeting houses they be such as are known to have been ordained or approved for this office of preaching by man 2. Such Preachers are Pastors or Ministers falsly so called of several Churches so named and not of one 3. They first have the leaves of the Teacher of that Parish where they are to preach 4. They bring along their Sermons with them ready prepared and so do but reherse what before they had invented and composed Now all these things to omitt many other were quite otherwise in the Churches of Christ of old time where due order was observed Will ye give liberty of speech or prophesying to any one in your Assemblies that is not made Minister by or according to man That speaketh forth that which God revealeth unto him No you appropriate the use of speaking as it were a Monopoly to your selves alone you may speak what you will none may controule you without danger of great harme and imprisonment section 67 T. L. Whether to be hated for this very cause because we professe our selves Ministers of the Gospel c. Ans We do not hate you because you do profess your selves Ministers of the Gospel nor yet at all Although we do not doubt but ye are hated of the Lord for this your Blasphemy c. Rev. 2.9 Ye do indeed profess your selves to be Ministers of the Gospel but oh how short do ye come of approving your selves as such 2 Cor. 6.4.5.6 7.8.9.10 Where 's your much patience while ye cannot endure to hear a man speak in your Assemblies though moved of the Lord thereunto Where your afflictions who cruelly vex and persecute others even the Saints of the most high doing you no harme at all where your necessities and distresses who live at ease in the flesh fareing dilitiously every day and vie with the great men of the world in gay apparel and sumptuous buildings where your stripes and imprisonment do you not cause both these almost every week to be infflicted on others even the Innocent where the tumults ye sustain labours watchings fastings where the pureness knowledge long-suffering kindness Holy Ghost love unfeigned c. Do you not both cause others to suffer the former and of the later are not ye wholly voyd Now then is it any way likely or consentaneous to any sound reason that ye who call your selves Ministers of the Gospel and Successors to Paul in this office be such as yee avouch your selves to be seeing not onely none of the things aforesaid which Paul sustained ye likewise suffer but contrariwise by your means and malice ye do even cause the same things to be suffred of others and that most wrongfully Blush then and be ashamed any longer to arrogate to your selves this name when as ye do suffer none of all those things that alwayes did accompany the same where it was truly owned section 68 T.L. Whether our calling to the Ministery be not that which doth provoke your spleen and bitterness against us Ans Your calling to the Ministery doth no whit provoke us but your hypocrisie but your deceit your covetousness pride gluttony luxury crueltie and the rest of your vices Yet do not these neither so provoke us as at any time to pull you hale you stock you stone you imprison you rifle your goods c. Neither ever did we so much as desire that anie of these things might be done unto you at least not since the time we were called Quakers our witness is on high T.L. Whether many scores and hundreds of Ministers of the Gospel such as are we have not laid down their lives in the very flames for living godly in Christ Jesus Ans What stout Martyrs your brethren have been in times of persecution is sufficiently known to all English men whose ages do number fortie yeers or upwards for in such mens remembrance for fear of the Bishops Apparitors or other small trouble impending they shipped themselves by scores for another land as is also before touched But these things not so willingly do I remember as well knowing that they who so fled away were of the verie best of your number Those you call Ministers of the Gospel in the Quaerie were not such as ye are save in name of Religion and certain Tenets but were at least in spirit and frame of minde as far unlike you as you are like them who so made them lay down their lives in the very Flames as the Quaere hath it Do not you likewise persecute men for living godly in Christ Jesus as these also did Blush to deny it Do not you and your disciples yet far out-strip in wrong and barbarous cruelty all the generations of persecutors that ever were of old time Those executed their malice for the most part by Process at Law with shew of Order and Civility You or your learners with your well liking at least doubt not to commit all manner of harm and savage crueltie not only without anie legall Process but without any Law it self yea clean contrary to †The Instrument of Gouernment Law You make them to suffer by whom partly you reign You make them poor by whose means you are rich You cast them in prison by whose bonds and travels you injoy your liberty I say these things have ye done partly in vote and partly in fact as is well known Tell us now ye that are yet alive or ye that have gone before us if ever like unkindness to this ye have seen with your eyes or heard by report of others section 70 T.L. VVhether you durst appeal to the Tribunal of heaven who are persecutors in heart word deed you or wee Ans O singular impudence O boldness not to be matched Provokest thou us to heavens Tribunal for tryall of such a question as almost all both men women and children on earth can judge and determine and that without danger of erring Does not almost everie citie town and village in the Nation ring and resound of scoffs taunts clamors against them that be called Quakers Is there ever a Prison in England in the which are not some of our friends detained VVhat Judge is there VVhat Justice that hath not had an hand in condemning of our friends to some kind of punishment Many other things I here might recount but I am even grown weary to mention them And now to bring the matter home to your own doors Is there anie one grievance or injurie that our friends do suffer but it pointeth unto you as the cause thereof and is to be charged on your account And this may you not your selves deny while ye dare not but confess of your manie and infinite accusations informations subornations testifications abominations countenancings and abettings c. whereby all these wrongs and afflictions have befallen our friends And if there be haplie any such among you so