but also by the inward heavenly comforts and spirituall strength which they thereby and from thence receive doe sensibly perceive that Gods hand is with them and he doth in them speake to their consciences then they need no more the judgement of the Church nor of any externall judge to assure them that the Scriptures are Gods true infallible word for though all professors in the world or an Angell from heaven should preach and affirme the contrarie they will not assent unto them but rather count them as Anathema and accursed as the Apostle commands Gal. 1. 8. Mr. Fisher. They who are true Catholikes and rest upon the judgement of the Church have as much assurance and certaintie of the truth of the Scriptures as is needfull from the testimonie of the Church for they build vpon the rocke against which the gates of hell cannot prevaile But you teach men to build their faith on their owne private spirit and you are lead every one of you by his owne conceit which is the cause of so many sects and schismes and severall opinions among you every one assuming to himselfe presumptuously such an infallibilitie of judgement in matters of faith as doth not belong to any private man neither can bee attained unto by the common and vulgar sort of Christians Mr. Walker You shew your selfe by this speech of yours to be not onely a meere carnall man such a one as hath never felt the lively worke of Gods spirit in his heart nor tasted of the heavenly gift but also a brutish man corrupting that reason and darkning that light which by nature is in you which I will evidently shew divers waies First you preferre the externall testimonie of the Church before the internal testimonie of Gods spirit and make it a more sure rocke to build on than the Holy Ghost who is the spirit of truth Secondly you seeme to exempt and exclude the common sort of Christians and all private men from the communion of the Holy Ghost and from that gift and grace and inward worke of the spirit by which they are illuminated to see and perswaded to beleeve the truth of Gods word every one particularly in his owne soule and with his owne heart contrary to the Scriptures which teach that the spirit of Jehovah resting first and originally on Christ the head Isa. 11. 2. is from him inspired and infused into all and every faithfull member of his body the Church Rom. 8. 9. in such sort that they are said by that one spirit to be baptized into one bodie whether they be Iewes or Gentiles 1 Cor. 12. 13. and their bodies are said to be temples of the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in them 1 Cor. 3. 16. and 6. 19. and by this spirit they are said to have the gift of knowledge and faith 1 Cor. 12. and to be led into all truth Ioh. 16. Thirdly you call the holy spirit of Christ which we challenge in Christ by a common right as common to all the elect and which doth worke the same faith and knowledge in every particular Christian by the name of a private spirit wherein you shew most palpable ignorance overspreading your carnall eyes and possessing your carnall heart For that spirit which flowes from that one common fountaine of all goodnesse even God the Father of all and is sent forth in and through the name of that one common Mediatour and Saviour of the world his Sonne Iesus Christ which is also the same in Christ the head and in the whole universall bodie of the elect and faithfull and doth worke in all and every one particularly the same common knowledge of the same truth and the same common faith in the same promised seed And all this by no private motions or inspirations separated from the word of God but onely by that common meanes even the word of Christ spoken by his mouth and written by his Prophets and Apostles in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament this spirit can in no case be called a private spirit For it is the propertie of the Holy Ghost the true Comforter to come from the Father in the Sonnes name and to teach the truth and worke faith by the common rule and meanes of the Scriptures and not to speake of himselfe new things which Christ had not spoken before but onely to speake what he hath heard and so to receive of Christs and to give to us and to lead us into all truth by calling to our mindes the word spoken by Christ and recorded in the Scriptures and by writing it in our hearts as our Saviour plainly testifieth Ioh. 16. 13 14. This spirit which is discerned by these properties we challenge to our selves by the common right of the elect in Christ and he it is who doth testifie to our spirits that the holy Scriptures are the true infallible word and doth transforme our soules into the obedience of them and doth worke in us that same faith by which all the Saints have beene justified and saved from the beginning of the world But now as I have shewed you which is the true spirit of God common to all the elect and faithfull and that by his properties observed from the words of Christ our Saviour and also that the spirit of Protestants is that spirit So I demand of you whether you Papists have any such spirit working in you that faith and knowledge of the Scriptures which you build on the testimonie and authoritie of the Church If you say that you have no such spirit but are led every one by his owne sense then are you carnall and sensuall men not spirituall by your owne confâ—ssion If you say that you have the spirit moving every one of you particularly to rest on the judgement of the Church of Rome and causing you to beleeve that the Pope cannot erre and that the Scriptures which he doth commend unto you are therefore Gods word then I would know of you why that spirit so resting and working in every particular Papist should not be esteemed a private spirit as well as that which works in every Protestant Mr. Fisher. Your spirit is a private spirit because he leads every one of you into severall opinions and private interpretations of Scripture which have never beene received in the Church nor commonly acknowledged of the godly Fathers and Doctors Mr. Walker If you have no more to say for your selfe than this I shall easily convince you by your owne mouth and prove from your owne words that the spirit of Papists not the spirit of Protestants is indeed a private spirit For first our spirit perswades us to receive for Gods infallible word no other Scriptures but those which by the common consent of all the ancient Fathers and of all sorts of Christians even of you Papists your selves are held for Canonicall but you Romanists receive divers Scriptures for Canonicali which by S. Hierome and other Ancients and by all the reformed Churches
moode or figure It runnes word for word thus That Church which beginning with Christ and his Apostles hath visibly professed in all ages that faith which Christ and his Apostles taught without change in any point necessarie to salvation is that Church whose judgement is to bee followed and no private man must oppose his judgement against it There must bee one such Church in all ages But no such Protestants can be shewed This syllogisme no doubt will appeare as it is in forme very absurd to all the judicious who shall heare of it or reade it And yet the author thereof if we consider either the time when or the manner how he propounded it was therein farre more absurd and ridiculous For hee delivered it for an argument of such force and strength that it was not to be answered but at leasure and upon much studie and meditation Yea hee wrote it downe after that every point and tittle therein which requires any answer had beene by the present adversarie Master Walker there at that time abundantly answered to the full satisfaction of the hearers as they confessed For after Master Walker had fairely offered and earnestly urged that all controversies of religion which were betweene them might be tried first by the originall Scriptures secondly by the sincere writings of the ancient Fathers thirdly by disputation in strict syllogismes and all these were refused and rejected by the Iesuit as is before related They who were present wondering at him and some of them asking him whether he had any ground of his faith and religion besides his owne sense and will Mr. Fisher. He answered that he would bee judged by the Church For said hee when the Church hath judged no private man must oppose his judgement And this I made a Protestant Preacher confesse heretofore in a conference and that under his owne hand Mr. Walker Master Walker answered that the Church of God never judgeth as it is a true Church but by the Word of God in the holy Scriptures and as it is said of a just Iudge in a Common-wealth that hee is Lex loquens so it is said of every true and faithfull Church that it is Scriptura loquens The speaking Scripture Now against this judgement of the Church no private man must oppose his judgement that is his owne private opinion for all singular opinions of private men are vaine errors if they were true they could not bee singular seeing all truths necessarie to salvation taught in the Scriptures are common to all the faithfull Therefore the Protestant Preacher which you named did grant nothing but the truth from which you can picke no advantage to helpe you for you when you appeale to the judgement of the Church doe in many things differ from this truth First by the Church you understand no other Church but the Church of Rome that whore of Babylon your owne mother and your appealing to her to be the judge of your Religion is as if a Bastard should seeke to be judged by the whore his mother whether hee be lawfully begotten which he knowes shee will affirme and judge him to bee for her owne credit Secondly you rest on her judgement in the maine principles of Religion which are already most plainly and infallibly determined in the holy Scriptures and in which no Christian truly sanctified and regenerate being growne up to yeeres of discretion and well read in the Scriptures needeth the judgement of any other judge besides the Spirit of God enlightening his heart Thirdly when you speake of the judgement of the Church you understand such a judging power and authoritie as doth by determining points of faith and manners make them true and lawfull whereas the true Church of God hath no power to coine new Scriptures or to make articles of faith but onely the gift of revealing propounding and expounding of the word of God and the articles of Religion which Christ hath commended to the faithfull Fourthly you require in the true Church and attribute to your Church of Rome such properties as cannot bee found in any particular Church on earth viz. that it hath continued in the same place state and condition visibly and sensibly professing from the daies of Christ and his Apostles the same faith in all points necessarie to salvation whereas by consent of all stories and by manifest experience it is plaine that doctrines which by the Apostles were taught to the old Romane Christians as justification by faith without workes and by imputation of Christs righteousnesse Rom. 3. 4. 5. are now condemned by the present Romish Church And others which the Apostle did call Doctrines of Devils as forbidding to marrie and abstinence from meats c. 1 Tim. 4. 3. it urgeth as necessarie to bee beleeved and obeyed for salvation by some persons Mr. Fisher. I doe hold that the Church is the chiefe judge of all controversies in the matters of Religion and that all private persons must submit to it and not seeke to the Scriptures First because the Scriptures are translated out of the originall tongues before that private men can reade or understand them and the translations are not to be beleeved nor received but by the authoritie and approbation of the Church Secondly the Church gives such authoritie to the Scriptures that without it we are not bound to beleeve them nor receive them for Gods word according unto that excellent profession of Saint Augustine Non crederem Evangelio nisi me Ecclesiae moveret authoritas I would not beleeve the Gospell unlesse I were thereunto moved by the authoritie of the Church Mr. Walker And I answer that all this which you say makes no more for the Church of Rome than for any other particular Church for all other particular Churches have as much authoritie in this kinde yea more because shee is more impure and corrupt than any of them and hath least abilitie or sinceritie to judge of the truth And undoubtedly Saint Austen meant not the Church of Rome of which hee was no member but rather the Church of Millaine in which he was converted Secondly I say that Saint Austen in the place by you cited speakes by way of supposition and not by way of asseveration as the learned have well observed from the scope and circumstances of the place Thirdly it is true that over-weake Christians who are babes in Christ the Church in which they live and are baptized hath such authoritie as you speake of namely to translate the Scriptures and to commend them for the word of God and for truth and they are bound to give credit to it therein and not to oppose their owne fancies and conceits But when Christians are growne up in grace and knowledge and have felt by their owne experience the effects and worke of the Spirit in their soules wrought by reading and hearing of the holy Scriptures and when not onely by the inward testimonie of the Spirit testifying that they are the truth
testimonie of Gods spirit witnessing inwardly with my spirit and partly upon the sense and experience which I have of the power of them in overcomming my naturall corruptions as it were against my will and partly upon that particular sight and knowledge which I have of the glory and divine Majestie shining in them I am so confident and assured that they are Gods most holy and infallible word that my conscience tels me I had rather forgoe all the world and my dearest bloud and bodily life than denie the truth of them Yea if the Church and Teachers which perswaded me first to receive them for Gods word should fall away by apostasie forsweare and denie them or any part of them or if any Angell from heaven should teach the contrary I would count them accursed as the Apostle enjoines me Gal. 1. 8. And now I can say to the Church and my Teachers as the Samaritans did to the woman who brought them to Christ Loe I have heretofore beleeved the Scriptures to be Gods word upon your testimonie and authoritie but now I see with mine owne eyes I have the inward testimonie of Gods spirit and feele by powerfull effects and by experience in my selfe that these Scriptures are Gods holy word and the power of God to salvation This I freely confesse is my knowledge and perswasion of Gods word which by these degrees I have attained unto And I daily have experience and evident signes of the same grace in all other Christians with whom I doe converse familiarly Now therefore in the second place I charge you before God and upon your conscience to answer directly and plainly before this people here present whether you have experience of the same grace in you and whether you have by these degrees oâ— any of them attained to this full assurance of knowledge and understanding of the Scriptures Mr. Fisher. What is that to you whether I have or have not Or what if I hold it needlesse to assume so much unto my selfe Mr. Walker It is very necessarie that you should doe either the one or the other And whether you confesse or denie you are taken and ensnared If you say that you have experience of this grace in you and of this gift and testimonie of the spirit then you are plainly convinced by your owne mouth of wilfull blasphemy against the Holy Ghost in that you have denied contradicted derided and scoffed at that worke of his in the Saints of God of which worke you have experience in your owne soule But if you confesse that you never felt this order and worke of grace in you and that your faith is nothing but an implicit beleeving of the Scriptures upon the Churches testimonie and authoritie without any sense or experience of the power and vertue thereof in your soule and that you blindly and desperatly cast your selfe on the Church without any particular discerning of the truth of the Scriptures or any inward testimonie of the spirit then it is certaine to say the best that you are yet a babe in Christianitie and Christ Iesus is not yet formed in you Yea I feare that you are worse than so for if after so many yeeres studie of Divinitie and so long continuance in the publike calling of a Priest and teacher of others you be found not onely destitute and void of this necessarie grace of a Christian but also an opposer and gainesayer of it and a scorner of such as professe it we cannot but deeme you a very Atheist and sonne of Belial in whom is verified that which S. Paul foretold of the slaves of Antichrist 2 Thess. 2. 12. viz. That God should send them strong delusions that they should beleeve lies and be damned not beleeving the truth but having pleasure in unrighteousnesse Also that which is testified by S. Iude of such reprobates who are of old ordained to condemnation viz. That they speake evill of those things which they know not and whatsoever things they know naturally as beasts which are without reason in those things they corrupt themselves and that they are corrupt trees and without fruit twise dead and plucked up by the roots and raging waves of the sea foaming out their owne shame and wandring starres to whom is reserved the blacknesse of darknesse for ever Mr. Fisher You are very sharpe and uncharitable in your judgement but it is no matter what you say neither will I argue more with you at this present for it is time for us to depart Mr. Walker I doe not judge you but by your owne mouth and by the infallible word of God and from henceforth I leave you to the judgement of God and to the censure of all here present who have heard you at this time onely thus much I must tell you that I doe manifestly discerne by your cariage speeches and behaviour your evill conscience and that you doe dolo malo wilfully oppose the truth and factiously cleave to the Romish religion For all here present have seene that you refuse and are afraid to be tried either by Scriptures or Fathers or disputation and reason or by the spirit of God which you would never doe so openly to your shame if your conscience did not tell you that they are all against you in the speciall articles of your religion wherein you dissent from us To this divers of them who were present gave their assent and professed that they were exceedingly deceived in their opinion of Fisher wondering that one so vaine and ridiculous as he shewed himselfe should dare to undertake the defence of his religion face to face against any learned man before any understanding hearers or that any should be either so foolish and blinde as to be seduced by him or so impudent and void of iudgement as to give him the name and report of a learned man or to number him among subtle disputants And one among the rest calling unto the Iesuit asked him very earnestly whether he were indeed that Fisher the Iesuit who disputed with Doctor White before the King which when he acknowledged Surely said the man I should never have beleeved it if any other had told me so for it could never have sunke into my minde that any of your name and report should be so absurd and ridiculous as you have here shewed your selfe For I see that neither the Originall Scriptures nor your owne translation of them nor the Fathers nor disputation and argument are of any account with you Doe you thinke that any man will be so foolish as to beleeve you who have no ground but your owne word and will But now I am glad that you have given me iust occasion as to abhorre your religion more than ever before and to esteeme you a vaine wrangler of no judgement so also to stop the mouth of some of my kinred who are of your religion and great admirers of your person and praisers of your learning by reporting and testifying unto them concerning