it serue Zelot Howe proude and presumptuously bolde ignoraunce doth make a man It might seeme to bee a rare thing that a mortall man which is but claye and dust yea a rotten Carion shoulde aduaunce himselfe against God euen the Lorde of infinite wisedome and glorie but that wee see it dayly for to be common Ath. Doe not accuse me for to be proud I would I were as frée from all other faults if it pleased God Zelot If ye were as sicke as ye be proude a verie litle meate woulde giue yee your supper But I knowe you doe not see your pride Ath. I maruell why ye shoulde counte â—â— proude ye see how plaine I goe Zelot You thinke that pride is in the coate when it is in the heart a man may haue a kinges hearte in his breast and yet a beggers coate vppon his backe There is cause why yee doe not goe gay yee are not able for take the ragged dest begger in the worlde and giue her the same wing whiche the great Ladies haue and yee shall see her flie the same flight There is pride against GOD and against men and you are in the deepest of them euen agaynste God Ath. Prooue that because yée condemne me so sore Zelot Yee take your selfe for to bee wise and the Lorde vndiscrete and vnwise For yee charge him with follie when as yee say this doctrine doeth ouerthrowe all and yet hee hath expressed it in sundrie places of his woorde If it bee so exceeding hurtfull then surely Christ was to be blamed Saint Paule and saint Peter with the rest of the Apostles were verie vndiscrete because they haue sette it foorth It seemeth that it had been good for them to haue taken aduise of the deepe heades of the worlde whiche might haue foretolde them the daunger whiche woulde followe and haue saide Maisters take heede howe yee deale with suche doctrine it will turne yee vnto discretite O foolishe wise fleshe this matter is ouer farre beyonde thy reache thou canst neuer come within the smell of it Ath. Smell or smel not let me heare yée aunsweare the matter Zelot You suppose that your reasons are vnaunswerable and that causeth yee to bee so freshe and readie but alas man your halfepenie is no good siluer yee are in a wrong boxe I will shewe you howe childishly ye erre Forsooth say you if God hath chosen a man to saluation before hee was borne then let him doe as euill as he can hee shall not bee damned and whereas the nature of man is prone and readie to seeke after the libertie of the fleshe this doth open a doore vnto him and a wide passage vnto all euill because he needeth not to care what he doth it is appointed before hande what shall become of him This mightie and inuincible reason of yours hath neuer an eye to see with all and although it seeme for to haue good legges yet is it but an olde Criple be not led by it for yee shall both fall into the ditch Did yee neuer heare what S. Paule sayth Ephesians Chapter I. 4. these are his wordes as he hath chosen vs in him before the foundations of the worlde were layde that wee shoulde bee holy and without blame before him through loue Howe stand these two thinges together when you say if men be chosen they may liue as they lust and God sayth by his Apostle that hee hath chosen them for to bee holy and blamelesse in their conuersation And this is vndoubtedly true that those whom God hath predestinate to bee heires of glory hee hath sealed them with the holy Spirite as yee maye reade in the same Chapter They are freed from the bondage of sinne by the spirite they walke in the spirite they are led by the spirite they shewe forth by the fruites of the spirite that the flesh with the lustes and concupiscences thereof is crucified in them and that they are regenerate and 〈…〉 againe of the spirite and so become newe creatures in Christ sinne is abhominable vnto them they hate loth it no lesse then deadlie poison they pant and breath to be wholy set free from the remnantes of it Righteousnesse is deare and precious vnto them their ioye and heartes delight is in it They sigh and grone because they can not reache vnto the perfection of it The word of God doth plainely teach that the electe are thus as I haue shewed and yet men say that election taketh away all care of Godlye life Ath. I like not this that men will saye they know God hath chosen them howe can they tell Can any man tell what God will doe with him Did God euer tell them that they are elected Zelot Howe shoulde you like of this when as yee like of no goodnesse Howe shoulde you which are but a naturall man iudge of thinges spirituall You thinke a man can not tell what GOD will do with him because you are blinde and see not the way ye suppose all other are so you are an Infidell or els ye might plainly heare GOD speake in his woord and tell which shall be saued and which are in the way to damnation Doe ye suppose that it is vncertayne when the scripture telleth a man howe he shall knowe that he is chosen if the woorde of God tell him he is chosen hath not God himselfe then tolde him Read the first Chapter of the seconde Epistle of Peter and there yee shall see how a man shall knowe certainely that he is elected and that hee shall neuer fall For if a man feele that GOD teacheth him by his spirite and reneweth him by repentaunce he is sure because God sayth so that he is chosen to eternall life if at any time hee feele the grace of GOD weake in him then doeth hee doubt and stagger but yet his fayth getteth the vpper hande On the other side when a man liueth in sinne and obeyeth vnrighteousnesse God telleth him plainely that he is in the way to damnation And therefore all those which do not finde in them selues the spirituall birth at the least begunne whereby they may assure them selues that they be chosen May certainly say that as yet their state is damnable Ath. Howe can yee saye their state is damnable so long as they beléeue Can men do more then beléeue Zelot They doe not beleeue for if they beleeue then are they sure that GOD loueth them what is it else which they beleeue if they knowe they bee in fauour with God it is because he chose them in Christ If they doubt of Gods fauour then doe they doubt whether God heareth their prayers therefore they shall not receyue any thing at the handes of GOD as ye may learne in the Epistle of Saint Iames. Chapter 1. verse 6 7. and although manie of the faithfull doe doubt stagger oftentimes yet they are not like the vnfaithful which coÌ„tinue in the same but they get the vpper hande they striue by prayer by
against preaching of Gods woorde that it maketh men neuer the better and ye would haue them leaue talking and fall to doing I confesse there be a number which are counterfeite professors which liue not according to the Gospell and most commonly they be such as haue but a little smacke of the Gospel and yet thinke they know much because they want the meanes hauing the worde either seldome or loosely preached But I will confute your vanitie another waye in this point tell me are not these your sayinges where the woorde is sincerely preached if any seeke to frame their liues after the same when they doe eyther by woorde reprooue your euill wayes or by deede refuse your lewde maners These men are full of the Spirite these are precise fellowes these are holie Saintes these thinke them selues Gods fellowes these thinke them selues better then all other men Ath. We say so in deede there is good cause why Zelot Then I pray ye tell me howe these two thinges can hang together when ye saie there is no amendement of life and yet yee complaine that they be ouer full of the spirit ouer precise and such like May not euery man see that ye pronounce thinges directly contrarie the one to the other that there is no amendment and yet in effect ye say they amende ouer fast Ath. Wee doe not saye that any doe amende ouer fast Zelot When ye say they are ouer holy and what shoulde men be so curious and full of the spirite what is this but to say that they amende ouer fast Is not this to amend when men by due instruction out of Gods woorde come to repentaunce of their former vices and haue a care to keepe them selues from the spottes of the rotten fleshe and filthie worlde Do not you and such as you are after a sort blaspheme when yee reproche men with the spirite Is it a shame for a man nowe a dayes for to haue anye thing to doe with the spirite of God While a man doeth walke after the fleshe in the lustes of vncleannesse he is an honest man But so soone as hee is indued with any grace ye wonder at him as crowes do at an owle yee are readie to floute and mocke him out of his skinne And as if the spirite of GOD were a spirite of dishonour and shame yee mocke men with him Wee may wonder at the longe patience of GOD which hath thus many yeeres suffered himselfe to be dishonoured his spirite reuiled his woorde despised and hath not been reuenged but no doubt the longer hee hath â—aried the heauier will the stroke be Ath. Men are men what shoulde they make themselues more holy then they be Zelot If ye meane one way ye say right for it is a naughtie vice for men to seeme to be holy when they are not or to seeme to be more holy then they be but if yee meane another way as I thinke ye doe that because men are sinfull by nature why shoulde they seeke for to be better then doe ye speake verie wickedly For God calleth men to repentance to turne from their euill wayes God guideth his seruants at all times with his spirite therfore S. paule sayth Rom. 8. There Is no condemnation nowe to those whiche are in Christ Iesus which walke not after the fleshe but after the spirite And againe in the same chapter As many as are led by the spirite of God are the sonnes of God Hee sayth that if wee liue after the fleshe we shall dye in other places he doth shewe whiche are the workes of the spirite and whiche are the workes of the fleshe And you like blasphemous wretches allowe those whiche walke after the flesh and condemne those which are led by the spirite Ath. Are none indued with Gods Spirite but such as runne to heare preaching Zelot Whosoeuer hath the spirite of God can not but delight in the woorde of God whiche the same spirite hath vttered The Lorde saith hee which is of God heareth Gods worde The happie man is hee as wee haue in the 1. Psalme whiche hath his delight in the lawe of the Lorde and which doeth meditate in the same day and night We haue in the psalme 112. Blessed is the man which feareth the Lorde hee hath great delight in his commaundements Moreouer the spirite of GOD doeth not guide men without the woorde And therefore it is saide Psalme 119. Thy woorde is a lanterne vnto my feete and a light vnto my pathes S Peter sayth I. Epist 1. Hee hath beegotten vs againe not of mortall but of immortall seede which he affirmeth to bee the worde of God that indureth for euer Likewise S. Iames saith cap. 1. of his owne good will begat hee vs by the woord of trueth Seeing therfore that the holy Ghost doth guide men by the worde it followeth that all those which set light by the woorde are led not with the spirite of God but with the spirite of the Diuell I might alleadge a number of testimonies of Scripture to prooue that such as you which make so small accompt of the sacred woorde of God as there be a number yea the greatest number whiche doe not set so muche by it as they doe by an olde shoe are despicers of God worse then brute beastes Ath. Cannot men be lead by Gods spirit and serue God vnlesse they knowe the Scriptures GOD forbidde that all those shoulde bee awry which are not learned is it not enough for plaine countrie men plow men taylours and suche other for to haue their ten commaundementes the Lordes prayer and the beliefe I thinke these may suffice vs what shoulde wee meddle further I knowe men whiche are no scripture men whiche serue GOD as well as the best of them all Will yee condemne such Zelot I sayde before that men can not be lead by Gods spirite and refuse to knowe the Scriptures Neyther can they truelie serue him vntill suche time as they knowe howe for to serue him for GOD teacheth howe he will be serued and hee teacheth onlie in his worde his will is that we shal learne to know him by his worde And therefore he hath appointed the Ministerie of the woorde to continue for euer in his Church that by it men may be built vp in Christe as yee may reade Ephe. 4. For this cause S. Paule exhorteth Tymothie to bee instant in teaching in season out of season he trauelled himselfe night and daie he maketh a verie ferâ—eâ—â— prayer to God continuallie for the Collossians that they might bee fulfilled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdome and spirituall vnderstanding Collos ver 9. For this cause hee exhorteth the Christians to bee children in malice but not to bee children in vnderstanding The holy Ghost doth sharpely reprooue the Hebrewes as wee may see in the latter end of the 5. chap. of that Epistle because they were yet children to be taught when for the time they shoulde haue been teachers Againe there is
will a little trie because ye bragge so stoutly howe well yee beleeue Ye beleeue Christ was crucified and suffred vpon the Crosse but are yee able for to prooue that yee beleeue in Christ crucified Ath. I say I doe are you able for to disprooue me Zelot Sinne is not slaine in ye therfore ye do not Ath. Howe prooue yée that sinne is not slaine in mee Zelot Because it doth raigne in ye therfore it is aliue Ath. I knowe not what yee meane by that Zelot Yee are ledde by sinne ye delight in it ye haue not mortified the lusts and concupiscences of the same And therefore yee haue not learned Christ as S. Paule speaketh Ephesians 4. Ye haue not put of the old man and put on the new man The death and passion of Christ hath not slaine sinne in yee for to beleeue in Christ crucified is for to be crucified with him as the Apostles doe teach in sundry places The reason is this Christe was not crucified for to slay sinne in him self for he had none but in his members which are ioyned and knit vnto him by faith in them the force power of his death doth shew it selfe nowe he which hath not this worke of the death of Christ in him that hee feeleth himselfe crucified concerning the body of sinne his faith in the passion of Christ is but a dead faith and cannot saue him This is the cause why S. Paule faith Rom. 8. That those which are in Christ walke not after the fleshe but after the spirite S. Iohn saith 1. Epistle cha 3. Ye know that he was made manifest to take away our sinnes in him was no sinne Whosoeuer abideth in him sinneth not he that sinneth hath not seene him nor knowne him Ath. Then by that reason yee woulde prooue that all that beleeue in Christ are perfect without sinne I thinke all are sinners Zelot Whosoeuer is borne of God sinneth not 1. Iohn 3. 9. Ath. Is there any man which can saye that hee is without sinne Zelot Not one which liueth in this flesh Ath. Then yee are contrarie vnto your selfe for euen nowe yee sayde That whosoeuer abideth in Christ sinneth not and hée which is borne of God sinneth not and now ye confesse that all are sinners so long as they liue Zelot I am not contrarie vnto my selfe but your blindnesse causeth ye for to thinke so Looke in the Epistle to the Romaines Chapter 7. and there ye shall find how S. Paule coupleth both these things together in himselfe which you iudge to bee so coutrary that by no meanes they may be founde in one man together at one time He confesseth that there was a lawe in his members rebelling against the law of his mind and leading him captiue to the law of sinne And yet a litle before in the same Chapter hee saieth That he did not commit the euill but sinne which dwelt in him The reason which he maketh is that hee did consent vnto the law and would haue doone the good but he did the euill which he hated To make the matter plaine thus it is Saint Paule was regenerate but yet not in full perfection for the remnaunt of sinne did abide in him that which the part regenerate did or coueted to doe or consented vnto that he saith he did and that which the corruption which did still remaine in him forced him for to doe that he saith he did not but sinne which dwelled in him Hee doth esteeme himselfe in the part regenerate he counteth the remnaunts of the old man to be but as excrements or as a dead carion which did abide in him and anoy him His delight and desire was vppon the good he hated the euill and therefore when he did sinne because it was against his consent and against his will it was no obedience which hee gaue vnto it he did not therefore serue sinne neyther did sin raygne ouer him but exercise a certayne â—iranny ouer him which he coulde not speake of Ath. I know not what yée meane when yée haue saide what yée can all must bee sinners Zelot Yee may very easily perswade me to beleeue that ye know not what I meane If your fiue wits were fifteene they woulde helpe nothing in this case Because ye know not what this meaneth yee know not what faith in Christ crucifyed meaneth ye know not what repentaunce meaneth yee can see no difference of sinners all are sinners say you and the death of Christ is that whiche saueth not considering that the death of Christ first killeth those whom it maketh aliue For this cause men are greatlye ouershot oftentimes when they come vnto a sicke man they thinke if he say I beleeue Christe died for my sinnes and shed his blood for me that then all is aswell as may be If it were faith in deed in the blood of Christ they must needes be in good case for al that beleeue in him shalbe saued But they stay vpon a bare fantasie which is a dead weak faith not making them to feele the power of the death of Christe Ignoraunce is so deepely setled in mens mindes that let a man be neuer so wicked neuer so far from true knowledge of God if he can make but some general coÌ„fession they neuer looke further And because they see almost all howesoeuer they liue find this it maketh them also to be carelesse and neuer for to thinke of the newe birth of which Christe speaketh when he sayeth vnto Nicodemus except a man be borne againe he cannot see the kingdome of God This newe byrth is shut out at the doores therefore no doubt God doth shutte them out of his kingdome which make no account of it Ath. Make your selfe neuer so skilfull yet yée cannot tell which man God saueth and which he condemneth Zelot It is not the will of God that wee should take vpon vs for to pronounce vppon any man and to say he is damned because we must leaue the secrete counsell of God vnto himselfe who is not bounde vnto vs to giue any account of his doings But I pray yee let vs a litle consider howe this headlesse bolte of yours is shotte foorth against true godlynesse Thus you reason no man can tell who are saued and who are damned therefore we are not for to care for tryall of our faith and repentance and that therfore the rules which are giuen in the word of God in these points are nothing worth Euery man may searche and know in him selfe whether he be in good case or not and we ought euery one for to trie our selues by that whiche the woord teacheth so plentifully I woulde wishe yee to consider what the cause is why the greatest multitude goe to destruction euen because they knowe not these thinges therefore see not the great danger which they be in but can boldly beare themselues in haÌ„d that they shall doe well enough Manye doe laugh euen in the middest of destruction I meane
Ath. There bee a number goe so farre they cannot tell what they may doe they will not doe as their honest neighbours doe they wilbe wiser then their betters what shoulde they meddle with Gods woorde it maketh â—hembusie in checking euery man It was neuer merry since men vnlearned haue medled with the scriptures Zelot I maruell how far you would go if a man shoulde followe ye yee are like a puddle which the more a man stirreth it the more filthie mud ariseth yee are like a sinke where the more a man stirreth the more is the stink Ath. What meane ye by that Zelot I mean that your heart is full of foule slinking rotten matter which floweth out at your mouth I confesse that those men bee not to be allowed which meddle with that which they should not but I know whom you meane when ye say they goe so farr that they know not what they may doe ye speake of them which seek to know GOD whom ye thinke to be halfe madde Ath. There be some of them which are not book learned what should they doe otherwise then their fathers before them I knew some of their fathers honest men and neuer troubled themselues that way Zelot I did know your mind wel enough for al your spite is against those which learne out of Gods word to know their duety towards the lord because as S. Pet. saith 1. Pe. 4. they do not run with ye to the same exces of riot ye think it strange blasphemy Agayn ye cannot abide to be admonished when ye commit any naughty thing Ye know not that God hath appoynted his word for all sortes of meÌ„ to be instructed in it throughly for the holy Apostles exhort euery where vnto great knowledge in the worde Againe ye know not that which the Lorde coÌ„mandeth in sundrie places that we should admonishe and reprooue one another if any do amisse not as you blind obstinate men which when a man doeth after a godlie manner admonish yee hee is by and by a busie medler what hath he to doe he shall not answere for you And because yee may not doe what lewdnes yee list vncontrolled yee say it was neuer merry since euery man might read the scriptures It is maruellous that men should so become beastes without all vnderstanding Ath. It would not gréeue me to bée reprooued by those which are learned but now euery Iacke wilbe medling Zelot If you be reproued iustly by Gods worde then is it God which doth reproue ye are not to looke vppon the man But when ye call them Iackes and giue them other reproches it is because yee are blinde and can discerne nothing but that whiche is of this worlde For if yee could see how great glorie the poorest true Christian is called vnto to be the child of God yee woulde not reuile those whom God honoureth Ath. They will be medling in smal matters if it were for great saults it were somewhat but a man may not be merrie nowe Zelot Beeyng vtterly blinde and voide of grace yee count those sinnes which are foule and grosse for to bee small swearing rayling talking in your filthie ribaldty singing sowle and beastly songes these and such like are your pety faultes this is your myâ—th whâ—â—n must not bee hindered For it is death to yee to haue any godlinesse spoken of if it be ye cannot bee merry This dunghill mirth is that which men complaine of to be molested and say it was happie in olde time when men were not reproued for such things now there be so many scripture men that a man cannot tell what to say or what to doe Ath. There are none of yée all as holie as yée woulde séeme for to be but haue faultes yée sée not your owne but other mens Zelot Hee which doeth not repente and correct his own vitious nature and striue to obey God is no good reproouer of others But when yee say men seeme to be holy and giue it as a matter of reproch therein yee goe almost beyond the Diuell himselfe for you see that I gainesaie yee or els yee woulde not inure it but yee would euen Powre out your stinking rotten poyson like blasphemous and venemous beastes ye would speake after this manner you that are so full of the spirite you that are Saintes and such like What are you diuelles are yee of the flesh no doubt yee are vntil God conuert ye But we may see how diuelishly men are become wicked when a man cannot make any appearance to be godly and holy but it is reproched as though it were a shameful thing to be led by the spirite For otherwise why do they so obiecte an honest thing to liue after the fleshe a shamefull matter to be guided by the spirite Ath. God helpe vs if none be good but such I hope honest and quiet men shalbe saued as well as they although they cannot talke so well nor runne not to heare Sermons Zelot Nay you would haue others in berter case then they for you iudge them that are zealous in the Gospel and woulde fainest of all other please God to be the worst men and the more carefull a man is to be holy to the Lorde the more he is disdayned and misliked Which doeth euidently shewe that such as you are led by the spirite of the Diuell Yee leade me so from one matter to another that wee are gone from something which ye vttered I remember yee saide yee put your whole trust in God Ath. I sayd so so I say still though I haue no learning yet I trust I beleeue as well as any scripture man of them all Zelot Yee bragge very boldly I pray ye tell me this are yee sure ye shalbe saued Ath. No nor you neyther nor the best of yee all wee muste commit that too God Zelot What is it that yee put all your whole trust in him for Is it not this that GOD hath promised vnto yee eternal life and that yée beleeue he wil performe his promise Ath. That hee doeth loue me and giueth me all thinges Zelot Are yee not sure that hee doth loue yee Ath. I hope he doth loue me but I am not sure Zelot Doeth not the scripture saye that whosoeuer doth trust in him shalbe saued Ath. God sayth so indeede and I beleeue it is so Zelot You knowe doe yee not that yee put your whole trust and beliefe in him Ath. I knowe I doe and I hope I shall alwayes doe Zelot If God can not lie when hee saith all that trust in him shall bee saued and you knowe that yee put your whole trust in him Wherefore doe yee not then knowe that yee shalbe saued Ath. That which God sayth is true for he cannot lie I put my trust in none but in him I hope to be saued what would yée haue more I will beléeue neuer a one of them all when they say they know they shalbe saued I thinke they woulde
the lawe careth not for Christe This is the cause why Christ sayeth The whole neede not the Phisition but the sicke I came not to call the righteous but sinners to repentaunce Therefore to such as haue wounded consciences the Gospel is sweete and comfortable and Christe in the latter ende of the eleuenth Chapter of S. Matthew calleth such vnto him saying Come vnto mee all yee which trauell and bee heauie loden and I will refreshe yee But such as haue no feeling of their sinnes or whiche are blinded and hardened yee shall perceiue small ioye and delight in them for to heare the worde preached they had rather be at Bearebayting Ath. Ye say well I would I coulde remember your wordes Zelot There be many which will seeme to be desirous for to learne but a man shall see they continue euen as carelesse as beefore But I will goe on with this matter The Scripture saith that a sorowfull spirite is a sacrifice to God and that God doeth not despise the humble and contrite heart But men are afraide to be brought to the knoweledge and feeling of their sinnes for feare as they say least they shoulde be driuen into dispaire as though that were a safe protection for them for a time to be in a senselesse securitie and as though they were in the better case because they make no conscience of their sinnes Whereas indeede those whiche are pricked and wounded with their sinnes are in the way to repentance when the other are farre off Ath. I coulde like your worâ—es the better but that ye would haue men not to trust to their fayth is it not good to beleeue well Zelot There is nothing good in men vnlesse they beleeue well and wee can not truste too muche vnto sayth but you doe not vnderstande what faith is Tell me this doth faith beleeue according as God setteth downe and speaketh in his worde or doth it beleeue contrary to that which God vttereth Ath. It doeth not beleeue contrarye too that which God vttereth Zelot Let vs see then when God setteth downe and sheweth which are the works of the flesh and threatneth damnation vnto all those which walke in them when God setteth downe that the deâ—pisers of his word shalbe condemned and yet men which are defiled with the filthinesse of the fleshe and walke after their corrupt lustes do boldely bragge that they beleeue to be saued setting naught by Gods worde say they trust in God is this faith God affirmeth one thing and yet they beleeue the contrary but see the blindnesse of men now a dayes when they heare vaine and brutish men boast of their faith yee doe well say they to haue a good beliefe when as in deede it is no more but a proud presumption wherewith God is highly displeased because by it they woulde make him a Lyar. When the sonne of man commeth shall he finde fayth in earth If this be faith he shall finde great plentie of it euery where For the Idolater the swearer the drunkard the proude the Adulterer are as full of faith as they can be thrust For euery one of these doeth bragge that hee hath as good a faith to God as he whiche is the most holy of all Ath. These may repent and bee saueâ— or else God for bid Zelot I doe not speake what God is able to doe in calling as hee doeth call some such vnto repentaunce but what they haue in them presently But I will see a little further howe great skill you haue in the law of God because ye neede so litle preaching What say ye vnto the second coÌ„mandement is it lawful for a man to worship idolâ— Ath. I thanke God I do not worship any for that is â—â—atly forbidden Zelot What say ye for the making of any image or picture of god do ye thinke that is 〈…〉 Ath. For making it is no matter so that a man haue no confidenee in them Zelot Howe do ye then vnderstande the wordes of the commaundement which say Thou shaâ—â— not make to thy selfe any grauen image c. Ath. Heâ—â—aneth that wée shoulde not make anye graâ—en Image 〈…〉 worship it Zelot That is your owne addition for there is no suche exception expressed neyther can the order of the commaundement beare it for he doth not say Thou shalt not make to the intent to worship but thou shalt neither make not worship Ath. If yee take it so then why are Paynter allowed to make any picture how is it lawfull to haue the image of the Prince in coyne Zelot I will shewe yee your errour you doe not vnderstande that the lawe was deuided into two Tables and that in the first Table which hath 4. commaundementes there is nothing commaunded or forbidden but that which respecteth immediatly the woorshippe and honour of God hee medleth not with any ciuill or pollitike matter hee doth absolutely forbid to make as I may 〈…〉 it any diuine image any similitude for to represent God or to bee like him because as the scripture sheweth there can no likenesse or similitude be made of God For he â—â— spirite of glorie infinite incomprehensible Which dwelleth in light which none canne come vnto and therefore ye may reade in the Epistle to the Rom. cap. 1. how horrible a sin it was to set vp any image or liknesse of God therfore the pictures of the trinitie and suche like are very abhominable But to let this passe what say ye for the worshipping of theÌ„ whether is it idolatrie or not if a man meane to woorship God by the image and not the image it selfe Ath. How can that be idolatrie when a man 〈…〉 worshippe none but God hee knoweth that the image cannot helpe him Zelot Then your meaning is that vnlesse a man do either worship the very image it selfe or else some false God in the image that it is no idolatrie Ath. I see no reason to the contrarye and I thanke GOD I neuer was so â—oâ— lisâ—â— as to take a blocke or a stone for to bee God Zelot Then yee thinke your selfe cleâ—tâ— in this commaundement yee were neuer any idolater ye neuer kneeled or played 〈…〉 any idoll Ath. I haue kneeled before them and prayed before them but I neuer tooke them to be God neither did I pray vnto any saue vnto the Lord God I trust God will 〈…〉 charge me to bâ—e an idolater Zelot All you Athiestes which haue no knowledge of God are crammed as full of popishe drosse as ye can holde sauing that ye will not abide by it but goe with the lawes of princes afraide to loose the world because ye haue made the world your God Ath. I defie poperie as much as the best of ye all Zelot Euen as muche as yee defie the deuel whome yee serue dayly For ye vse popishe reasons to excuse your falling from God by Idolatrie and whereby a man may easily see that you â—re readye vnto it againe if time serued Ath. I see I muste let
The worde of God is certaine and sure because God cannot lie but howe shall I â—â—â—we which is their â—â— sense of it â— shall I beleeue euerie man which doth interprer the worde shall I not the better beleeue 〈…〉 if he say it is not my interpretation but S. Ierome he saith so S. Augustine hee sayth so I promise yée he shall haue the greater credite with me for they were other maner of men then hée Zelot I cannot but â—â—ruell to see howe grosse and dull your head is for to learne the trueth and how readily you can bring out such matters as this ye speake not of your owne head I woulde there were no greater learned men then you blinded in this matter But let mee shewe yee your grosse errour Yee say the word is certaine and sure but the interpretation thereof yee make doubtfull but what are we the better that the worde of God is sure and certaine vnlesse it be sure certaine vnto vs which cannot bee except the interpretation be so It is as good for you to say the word is doubtfull as for to say the sense is doubtfull Nowe when as yee hang the sense vppon men can ye denie but that still it is in doubt This must needes arise in the minde those Doctors said so but they might erre and therefore I am not certaine that this is the sense If this shall bee admitted in the Church what shall become of that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or full certaintie of fayth which the woorde of GOD doeth require to be in vs it is grounded vpon the word of God for it cannot stande otherwise Moreouer faith is sure what God meaneth or else it is no faith therefore such as woulde hang mens saith vppon the authoritye of men where they must needes still be in doubt and when they are at the furthest they come but vnto this it is 〈…〉 like for to be true because such notable men speake it doe not know a right what faith is for that yee say he shall haue the more credite with you if he say It is not my saying but the saying of Augustine therein ye were euen as good say that your fayth is built vpon men and not vpon God For if ye doe beleeue because some great learned or Godlie man telleth yee the matter this is no true beleefe for wee must bee fully perswaded that God him selfe doeth tell vs or els wee be neuer the neere Ath. Howe shall I know when GOD speaketh â—â— which God speaketh you come and preach one way another commeth and hee doeth proache another way yee preache one contrary to another you say God speaketh hee saith God speaketh whiche shall wee beleeue Is not â—ee to â—eâ— best beléeued which can shew that those greate doctors are on his side Zelot See what a grounde you leaue vnto you know not when GOD speaketh not what God speaketh and therefore yee will haue some of the olde Doctors for to tell are yee sure hee telleth yee right if ye be it is because hee sheweth ye the worde of God why he telleth yee so the credite must bee giuen vnto the word and not to the man But you saie yee can not tell when one doeth alleadge the worde in the true meaning howe then can ye tell when one alleadgeth the doctor in the true meaning he which will falsifie the word of God in the Bible he will not sticke for to falsifie the meaning of the Doctor you may search the scriptures to see whether the testimonies alleadged be so as the men of Berea did when Paule preached Act. 17. 11. You cannot neither are yee commaunded for to searche the doctors And vnlesse yee see the manifest 〈…〉 of gods worde ye are not bounde for to beleeue but if it be plainlie shewed that God hath spoken then yee are bounde vnder the 〈…〉 of damnation for to giue credite vnto it Christe sayth My sheepe heare my voyce a straunger they will not heare Iohn 10. Also S. Iohn saith brethren beleeue not euerie spirite but trie the spirites whether they be of God 1. Iohn 4. he therefore which saith I cannot tell when the voyce of Christ is vttered it is all one as if he should say I am none of the sheepe of Christ because as he saith Euery one of his sheepe do knowe his voyce He that saith I know not which Preacher doth preach truth and which falshood he may euen as well say I am none of those to whome the holy Ghost speaketh and sayth Try the spirites whether they be of God it is a generall precept giuen vnto all Christians Ath. Ye shall neuer make mee beleeue that euerye man is for to iudge whether the Preacher speake true or false Zelot I know not what I shall be able for to make you beleeue but I am sure I can plainely shewe what yee ought to beleeue First marke this the worde came not from man neither can a man teache it ye vnlesse God reueale it by his spirite if it were the wisedome of the worlde or of the flesh then the spirit of the world which is in man and knoweth the secretes of man could teache it but because it is the mysterie of GOD none can make yee learne it but the holy Ghoste which searcheth euen the deepe things of God as S. Paul teacheth 1. Cor. 2. 10 S. Iohn in his first Epistle Chap. the seconde hauing told them that there were euen then many Antichrists he comforteth them with this You saith he haue receiued an annointing from the holy one know all things Like as therefore none of those can learne whoÌ„ God doth not inlighten with his spirite so on the coÌ„trary part all those which are taught within by the spirit doe feele when the doctrine which the same spirit hath taught is vttered he knoweth his owne and he sealeth it vp in their hearts and consciences which being instructed by him must needes consent thereto fully For this cause there is great difference betweene such as set all vpon the authorities of men and such as preach as S. Paul saith he did with the plaine euidence of the spirit and of power 1. Cor. 2. 4. he addeth the reason in the next verse that their faith should not coÌ„sist in the wisedome of men but in the power of God If faith may not hang vpon the wisdome of men and therefore the intising speech which mans wisedome teacheth is to be auoided in setting foorth the Gospell then can it not stand vpon the authorities of men Ath. Is it not lawfull in any respect for to alleadge them Zelot Yes no doubt there are circumstances which may make it sometime very needfull I speake only against this that they are alleaged when as we may alledge the same things out of the worde it selfe And when they are alleadged for men to builde their faith vpon or to make men thinke that there can be no certaintie in the interpretation of the worde