Righteousness nor have any of his Righteousness in them And this is to make God account sinful men Righteous and so not to padiffere utnce between the holy and prophane which was the false Prophets practise as it is yours also who have also said that maintaining a justification by a Righteousness within is a meer Unrighteousness wherein you do no less than charg the Apostle with maintaining a meer unrighteousness for he tould them of the Righteousness of the Law being fulfilled in them who walked not after the flesh but after the spirit Rom. 8. 4. And the Saints were justified by the Spirit of God in them and had the Righteousness of faith in them so were not justified in sin but from it Acts 13 39. 1 Cor. 6. 11. Phil. 3. 9. but their state are you far from who have been pleading for sin which is your natural heritage which makes you so unwilling to part from it and you would fain be accounted righteous in Christ when you are unrighteous and deceitful being ignorant of the righteousness of God and not having it in you and so would be counted what you are not and therein are Hypocrites deceiving your selves and others And where we asked you what is the Light with which Christ Lighteth every man which cometh into the World which T. Meer said is both natural and spiritual To this you say we vary T. M's saying as you falsely say divers times we did our own Question about the Light at that meeting for you say his Answer was to our Question as thus stated what is the Light which Christ giveth And his Answer to this was that he is the author and giver of both 〈…〉 Light Reply In this have you spoken falsely on both hands for we did not then ask what is the Light which Christ giveth but whetter the Light with which Christ Lighteth every man that comheh into the World be natural or spiritual and T. M. said it is both natural and spiritual as also you have lyed in saying that we vary T. M's saying for he and you have confessed in P. 61. That the Light wherewith Christ Lighteth every man is both natural and spiritual and yet one Light that is both natural Spiritual you could not shew thus are you taken in your self contradictions and deceit And where you say that Christ is the author and giver of all that is truly called Light and good to men this is not to my Question for it was touching the Light with which Christ Lighteth every man and not touching all good that he is the author and giver of for there are many good things that Christ is the author of that are not the Light wherewith he in lighteneth every man so that you discover your weakness about the Light And where you ask where we read that the Gospel is Preached in every Creature Answ. See Col. 1. 23. in the Greek its {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} in every Creature And where you say you have answered in simplicity and pâ—ainnese and not with hidden things of dishonesty but by a plain manifestation of the Truth in the words of Truth have declared your minds that others when they read may understand â—our knowledge in the mysteries of Christ Herein your boasting Spirits are seen you would make men believe as if what you have written were infallible by a plain maâ—ifestation of truth but presently after you say if in any thing they find you speak not according to the word let them refuseit and shew you in love by evidence of Scripture your mistake and you shall thankfully accept it you say To which I say what confusion deceit and doubting is this you are found in And what untempered stuff is this It appears by this you are not assured that your work is all in the Truth for all your boasting of your answering by a plain manifestation of Truth and of your knowledge in the mysteries of Christ and now both your lies slanders and mistakes in many things are made manifest and you may see them if you be not still wilfully hardened and many more aspersions and slanders besides those I have mentioned have you vomited out in your rage and envy against us in these your answers which will be a heavy burthen upon you when you come to be silent in darkness as the wicked shall and to reap the fruit of your doings which will be terrible to you one day And where you desire the Reader if ever he see any Reply to this of yours he would distinctly observe if we pervert not or alter your sayings by taking them in pieces and changing expressions to mar the sense c. and in observance of this caution you say you doubt not but the Reader will be satisfied even from our selves concerning our Antichristian Spirit without your adding any more by way of return to ours which though you will not bind your selves from yet you do not resolve to do though we should give you occasion by such sorry shifts and pretended Answers as hitherto we have returned you say Reply As for your suspecting us to mar the sense of your sayings by perverting them and to lie at the catch to get some matters to snarle about as you say these are your own practises and it s your own evil thoughts against us wherein you muse of us as you use your selves and that arises from the Antichristian spirit that is in you and not in us and you are the snarlers as your many lies and frequent perverting our words doth plainly shew and not we what are you afraid to fall into your own pit 2. And as for your not resolving to add any more by way of return to ours I say to what end should you add any more in return to ours for you thereby would but add more to your former wickedness and slanders and blasphemy against the spirit of the Lord which is in us which sees over your deceits and this would but ad more to your shame for your lying Books many are grown weary of them who before you vomited out your malice thus against us had a better esteem of you than now they have as also you have falsely said that we have been already proved deceivers and Antichrists which if it were so then away with your work there is no more need of it against us but your malignity and falseness herein is largly made manifest to many and you had better never have been born than have vented such wickedness perversness out of your mouths if you repent not A Brief Reply to John Horne's Book Called Truth's Triumph over Deceit c. Wherein his Deceit Insolency and vain boasting and his Triumphing in his wickedness and Lyes is plainly manifested and here reproved and the Truth Vindicated I See that the Diviners and Deceivers strive against the Truth of our God and the more their madness and folly and falshood Appears as it is evidently fulfilled
say that the false Apostles were never the better for their Paeaching freely but the worse Answ. Herein have they plainly perverted that of 2 Cor. 11. 12. for there is no speech of the false Apostles Preaching freely see the malice and envy of these accusers how they envy the practise of the true Apostles and Ministers which was to Preach freely and not for filthy lucre Mat. 10. 1 Pet. 5. Which they have not yet proved the false Apostles did as they have affirmed for they ran into covetousness and were deceitful workers having the forme of godliness but denying the Power 2 Tim. 3. And in their affirming that the false Apostles Preached freely here they have set the false Apostles above themselves for neither J. H. nor Thomas Moor Senior have Preaching freely to boast of whilst they are setled in Parishes and taking Tyths and Gifts as the other Priests do whom they have called greedy dumb dogs strong to appetite c. in their Pamphlet called a Brief Discovery c. T. Moor's Principle Page 2. That sin is in the believer as a natural heritage from Adam while he is in this mortal body and to prove it he brings Rom. 7. 17 20. for I know that in me that is in my flesh dwelleth no good thing and that it was not he that did sin but sin in him and saith there 's his natural heritage To which I Answer Herein hath he wrested the Scripture for Paul did not say that sin was in him as a natural heritage from Adam while he was in the mortal body neither did he own it as his natural heritage for while it was in his flesh it was his burthen after that he was turned to the Spirit so he waited till it was done away that he could witness the Creature delivered from sin and become new in Christ Jesus who redeems out of the first Adams state and nature And where we laid down this as T. Moors Principle that their nature is restored in Christ and that their nature is a filthy nature and Christ took upon him their nature this they say is falsely expressed and perverted and yet J. H. and T. M. a little after say thus viz. That our nature kind or being as in us not in Christ is corrupt and filthy in it self yet Christ took upon him our nature not as it is filthy in us by sin in it c. and they say that we might as well have taxed the Apostle of confusion for saying men by nature do the things contained in the Law Rom. 2. 14. And yet by nature are Children of wrath Ephes. 2. 3. To which I say we may justly tax these men with confusion indeed but not the Apostle for here they cannot discern between the sinful nature and the pure nature for the nature of Christ is pure so that it s not their nature for their nature is filthy and therefore it is not in Christ and their bringing that of Rom. 2. 14. and Ephes. 2. 3. together to prove their confusion sheweth that they cannot discern between that nature by which men do the things contained in the Law and that nature by which men break the Law and are Children of wrath but make as if it were all one But be sure they are out of that nature by which some did the things contained in the Law since their nature is filthy and by it they cannot do these things contained in the Law but plead against that state and for sin to continue in them as their natural heritage while in the mortal body Again J. H. and T. M. Say that the Apostle saith not that Christ in them is the mystery but the riches of this mystery is Christ in men * the hope of glory not the possession of glory which is not to be injoyed till his glorious appearing when these mediums now in use will cease Answ. So herein would these deceivers put Christ the possession of glory a far off as a thing not to be injoyed by the Saints till after their decease till which time also we know they put Christs glorious appearing afar off But then how was Christ all and in all his believers and how were they changed from glory to glory and had the heavenly treasure in earthen vessels 2 Cor. 4. 7. and 3. 18. if they did not possess his glory when the riches of the glory of this mystery was Christ in the Saints ' the hope of glory What was not these riches the possession in them too How grosly do these men wrong the Saints and their words in counting them not possessors of the glory before their decease when as the Saints even when they were in the pure hope then rejoyce they with joy unspeakable and full of glory 1 Pet. 1. 8. and again after these men aforesaid have so wronged the Saints in counting them not possessors of the glory while here they go about to prove their corrupt Principle viz. That sin is a natural heritage in believers so long as they are here so that by these mens account the Saints had not Christ in them as their possession but sin as their possession or natural heritage while they lived which no where the Scripture saith how sadly have they herein wronged the Saints and blasphemed against the Tabernacle of God which is with his people in whom he dwels J. H. and T. M. Tell of an instrumental and outward Object or a medium of faith which they say is the holy Scriptures and then they say the last and most inmost and absolute Object is God in Christ 1 Tim. 4. 10. Rom. 4. 24. And so they say the Object of faith is one I Answer If the Scriptures be the outward Object or medium of faith and God in Christ be the most inmost and absolute Object of faith then how is the Object of faith one What is the Scriptures without and God one Or are the Scriptures God Here 's confusion indeed and where does the Scripture say it is the outward Object and medium of faith Here these men are come under that confusion they have charged us with as according to their own account for in Page 59. they charg us with counfounding the Author with the medium which they call a piece of confusion when in Page 6. they confess that Jesus Christ is both the Object of faith and living and enlivening medium by which any comes to God and believe in God Heb. 7. 25 1 Pet. 1. 21. so that in Page 8. they say true in saying that we did wisely to say that their darkness and confusion may easily be seen for so it may who after in their false inference are telling of some being guilty of the imperfection of wit-lesness because they have in them their guts that be wit-less and thus their lightness and folly appears J. H. and T. M. accuse us that the true Christ we say p. 10. we desire not the knowledge of In which they have shamefully belyed us
some of his Books that Christs body in Heaven is a body of flesh and bones without blood in it and that he ascended without material blood But against this their own assertion they say in Page 26. yet that his body is a body of flesh and bones in Heaven without blood in it they determined not So who should believe these Hypocrites who assert things that they themselves are so doubtful of and Preached their own conceptions and imaginations which they have no Scripture for and against their own words have guessed above what is written and have given forth their private conceptions not as an Oracle to be believed Oh! what darkness and folly are they in And yet after that they have confessed that what they have said of Adams body not having blood in it before the fall is but a private conception which they give not as an Oracle to be believed They go about to vindicate this private conception of theirs in these words viz. but how prove we that Adam had blood Why blood is the life T. M. may answer it is so in the fallen state follows it it was so there they say So then it follows from these mens words that it is in the fallen state that men have blood in their bodies that then it is the life but not in the innocent or spiritual state from whence they might as well say that then Christ had never blood in his body for he was never in the fallen state and that the Saints that were Spiritual had not blood for they were not thus in the fallen state What miserable blind guides are these that tive go about to maintain their foolish conceptions which they gall not forth as Oracles to be believed And to our saying that Nations are made of one blood Acts 17. 26. J. Horn and T. Moor say but neither doth that cross T. Moors apprehensions for there was no Nation nor man made of Adam before his fall he fell before he propagated they say Answ. Here again their folly and sottishness exceedingly appears for Adams falling before he propagated does notargue that he had no blood in his body before he fell for Nations to be made of for he might have propagated if he had not fallen seeing that when God had created man in his own image male female created he them then God blessed them and God said unto them be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it c. Gen. 1. 27 28. And where we asked them whether they believe there was no blood left in Christs body when crucisied They answer how should we certainly believe what is not revealed Some judge it probable there was not because it is said after his fide was pierced forthwith came there out blood and water water is mentioned last as if blood might be all drained out till water followed it they say I answer Here again they have shewed their weakness in that they have here shewn that they do not certainly believe there was no blood in Christs body when Crucified because it s not revealed to them and where they say that forthwith came there out water and blood I say what could the blood all come out forthwith so that people may take notice that all their former asserting that Christ ascended without material blood and that his body is in Heaven without blood in it their thus blindly reasoning for it as they have here done is but all in darkness since what they speak of it is not revealed to them and therefore they say they find some good men that had the oversight of the Churches here in Queen Elizabeth and the following dayes did not disbelieve or deny such a conception for they say it is printed amongst those songs set before or after the Psalms in the complaint of a sinner Thus they The Scripture doth declare no drop of blood in thee for that thou didst not spare to shed each drop for me Page 54. Whence the Reader may see from whence J. Horn and old T. Moore and his Son have part of their Faith or their Testimony for it even from among Songs which were Invented by men what sad stuff is this but sure could they have proved their Faith and their Conceptions by the Scriptures they needed not to have gone to among old Songs to have proved it which are but Aditions of men not given forth by the Prophets or Apostles After that John Horn hath in pag. 55. Confessed himself subject to forgetfulness and over-sights and that he did in his forgetfulness write Job for Elihu because the Book doth wholly bear the Title of Job he further proceeds in his Deceit to Vindicate his words in a Letter to Eliz. Underwood which were that the good Angels are not pure in the presence of God and to prove it he brought Job 4. 18. and 15. 15. where it s said behold he putteth no trust in his Saints and his Angels he charged with folly which were none of Jobs words but Eliphaz his words who was one of the Miserable Comforters that came against Job and one of them against whom the wrath of God was kindled and spoke not the thing of God that was right as Job did Job 42. 7. but John Horn replyes that what Eliphaz said of the Angels as charged with folly is related by Eliphaz rather as a thing Revealed to him and said to him in a Vision by a Spirit I Answ. But what Spirit it was that led Eliphaz to speak so against the Saints Angels thou J. H hast not made appear but in thy Darkness and Deceit hast Joyned with that Spirit that hath accused the Brethren and the good Angels as thou hast done further then Eliphaz did for where provest thou that the good Angels are not pure in the presence of God and what Sin canst thou prove the good Angels Guilty of that makes them Impure and what are the names of those good Angels that thou hast so accused and doest thou believe that God putteth no trust in his Saints according to his words that thou hast quoted to prove thy Deceit Again Pag. 57. J. H. and T. M. Say they said about that in 1 Cor. 15. So flesh and blood cannot Inherit the Kingdom of God that in the Changed state what was blood before might be Changed into Pure Life and Spirit the thing and Substance remaining though they say not in the same Form of Blood which yet they Conclude not they say Answ. Here again they have shewed their folly and Imaginations for which they have been reproved in Laying down that which they have no Scripture for but their own blind Supsition which now they Conclude not and so are but uncertain of their blindly saying That in the Changed state what was blood before might be changed into pure Life and Spirit and yet the thing and Substance remaining So how can others believe these men when they seem hardly to believe their own
now to some of J. Horns and T. Moors Doctrines in their Epistle wherein they have belyed and grosly perverted the Truth with their false constructions and inferences as to our saying that the seed of God which is Christ wherever he is known in such a low measure as a seed that suffers and is burthened in man by corruption there he desires to be free from the burthen of sin and alwayes to do his Fathers will and this seed the Power reaches to where it is begotten and in the Power it arises in them that believe in the Light for their Redemption to which J. H. and T. M. Scornfully say of this seed Christ which we speak of that he hath not ceased from sin in them nor can do in all things his Fathers will but needs a Power to reach to him where he is begotten And that we represent him as one not able to do his Fathers will in some men To which I reply that Christ cannot in all things do his Fathers will is their own words and not ours neither does it follow from what we said for his desiring to do his Fathers will in that suffering state does no more argue that he is unable to do it than when he prayed to the Father not my will but thine be done who could do nothing without the Father as also the Heir as long as he is a Child differeth nothing from a Servant though he be Lord of all Gal. 4. 1. and Christ came into the World to do his Fathers will which is the sanctification of them that believe which he desired to do before it was done and as for the Power reaching the seed which so much these men have scoffed at and counted what we said of it confused stuff in page 63. They have shewed themselves ignorant of the seed of God which the promise is to and that they never knew the work of that Power which reaches that seed as also they are ignorant of the Scriptures for it is written Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive Power Riches Wisdome and Strength and Honour and Glory and Blessing Revel. 5. 12. so that they might as well have scoft at the Angels of God who spake these words as at us and have said that the Power that reaches to the seed is Christ and then Christ is worthy to receive Christ as also they have done in like manner in their scorn in page 63. wherein they have shewed their gross ignorance of the several manifestations of Christ the seed in his People who are of the seed of Abraham which Christ took upon him to redeem his own and to bring to his own Power and promise which he receives of the Father And our saying that this Seed which is Christ where he suffers and is burthened in man by corruption there he desires to be free from the burthen of sin does not argue as falsely as these men infer that it cannot be said of the Seed of God that in it is no sin for Christ hath suffered by mens sins and been pressed with them and born them Amos 2. 13. Ezek. 6. 9. and yet in him is no sin and if these men were not past feeling they might feel how the Spirit of the just in them they have often grieved burthened and afflicted by their own sins and yet in that Spirit there is no sin but in them who resist it J. Horn and Thomas Moor say their Christ by that his death once suffered and in his Resurrection in that his Body c. hath overcome Death and the Devil slain the enmity and taken out of the way all that was contrary to them redeemed them from the Curse of the Law I Answer Herein have they stollen the Saints words which they are out of the like of for if the enmity were taken out of the way Sin would not be their natural heritage as they have pleaded for it and they would not have uttered so many lies and falsehoods as they have done for one of which J. Horne hath craved forgivness and if all that 's contrary to them be taken out of their way then its evident that sin and the Nations pollutions are not contrary to them for they have confessed themselves too much to have a share in them and that they are abusers of the Truth And to that 1 John 4. 17. as he is so are we in this World J. H. and T. M. give their meaning and say as Christ is unknown despised hated persecuted in his Doctrine and judged by any of the World so are we Answ. In this have they apparently lyed for Christ was persecuted to Death of the World but so are not J. Horne not T. Moor neither are they unknown of the World as Christ was for Christ was never known to Preach in a Steeplehouse by an Hour-glass for Tyths or so much in the Year in Leiw of them like the Parish Priests and Deceivers who are out of the steps of the true Ministers who walked after Christs example not after the hireling Priests example who Preach for hire and gifts and reward as these men do And rather than J. Horne will freely suffer by the World as Christ did take heed that he fall not to the Common-prayer-book And to our calling J. Horne a Priest he sayes if we mean he is a Priest of the order of Aaron a Levitical Priest we say evidently false Answ. If he be not a Priest of the order of Aaron then he plainly appears to be a false Priest seeing that in Page 70. he hath pleaded for his taking Tyths as neither repugnant to Gods Law nor Mans as also his practises therein he instances that the Priests had their several Subburbs and Quarters when as they that had these were of the Levitical Priesthood Numb. 35. Which Priesthood J. Horne hath plainly denyed himself to be one of and yet pleads for Tyths which pertained to that Priesthood which Christ ended and disanulled the commandment which gave the Tyths Heb. 7. So what hypocrisie is this J. H. in who claimes a right to Tyths as both being according to the Law of God and Man and yet upon that account denies to be called Priest when as the Law of God calls them Priests that took Tyths and does not the Law of Man the like And does not the Book of Common-Prayer call them Priests So that upon this account may J. Horne be called a false Priest he claiming a right to Tyths as by the Law of God when as the service of the Tabernacle for which they were given to the Prists of Levie he is out of Numb. 18. As also he is guilty of the false Priests practises who Preached for hire and divined for money Mica 3. 11. J. H. and T. Moor the elder and the younger say that the false Apostles it seems by what the Apostles writes of them 2 Cor. 11. 12. they use to boast of their free Preaching and in Page 71. They
for our words are these that you look for a Christ like your selves but that he hath no blood in his Body as you imagine whom we desire not the knowledge of for such a Christ they look for as they cannot prove the true Christ to be in their Affirming him to have a Bod of Flesh and bones in the Heavens without blood in it as many have heard them Publikely Affirm which now they would deceitfully deny that they so Affirmed and say p. 26. that they determined not that his Body is a Body of Flesh and bones in Heaven without blood and so they have Preached and published that which they determined not but were doubtful of what deceit and confusion is here And how do they leave men in uncertainties J. H. and T. M. p. 11. say That a man may be a sinner by having sin in him and yet not sin and to prove it bring Rom. 7. 20. Paul did not the Evil c. To which I say that their words are as much as if they had said that a sinner sins not What folly is this which that of Rom. 7. 20. proves not for though there was that in Paul which was of God that sinned not yet when he did the Evil which he would not then he sinned in doing it Again these Diviners who are thus Confounded say he that doth Righteousness is Righteous as God is Righteous yea as Christ is Righteous not because there is no sin in him but because Christ is made to him of God his Righteousness and in him he is Righteous as Christ is Righteous Answ. What then hath Christ sin in him if a man be Righteous as Christ is Righteous when he hath sin in him this their Assertion would charge both Christ and them that are in him to have sin in them which is Blasphemy against Ghrist For in him is no Sin and he is made manifest to destroy Sin And to our Question which was what one Sin or Sinnes can they lay to Paul or James or John's charge or to any of them that they were not perfectly freed from before their Decease Let them prove some sin which was not destroyed in any of those before their Decease or for ever be silent from pleading for sin or accusing the Righteous as they have done as also we asked them what sin can they prove that Nathaniel had in him when he had no guile in him To which J. Horn and T. Moore Reply page 13. That it is enough that we believe Paul James and John that they had Sin and did in many things offend though we cannot name their Particular offences as it is to believe multitudes to have dyed though we know not of what Particular Diseases c. and in page 20. They tell us we may as well say seeing the Scripture Witnesses that the Children of Korah dyed not in the Judgement that befell Korah and his Company what Disease they dyed of and if they cannot prove that they dyed of some Disease then they are Confuted if they believe and hold that they dyed they say Answ. Here any Impartial Reader may see how these men are Confounded who have accused the Saints to have Sin in them and to offend in many things while they lived upon Earth and now cannot prove any one sin that they were not perfectly freed from before their Decease or which was not destroyed in them before their Decease so that here all may see how Ignorantly they have accused the Saints and how far short of proving their Assertion they are for any of the Saints confessing any of their present states or failings does not at all prove that they were offenders or had sin in them so long as they lived as these said accusers would have it and as to their saying that multitudes have dyed though they know not of what Particular diseases and if they cannot prove that they dyed of some disease then they are confuted if they believe that they dyed to that I say thus their comparison will not hold but is foolish neither will it follow from what we propounded for it is evident that multitudes have dyed as it is appointed for men once to dye But they have not so proved that all the Saints were Sinners or had sin in them so long as they lived according to their Assertion And to their saying that David implies Sins in them though forgiven and covered in whose Spirit is no guile Psa. 32. 1 2. here they have added their own words unto Davids for he spake of such unto whom the Lord imputeth not Iniquity whose sin is covered and in whose Spirit is no guile nor can any say that their sin is thus covered when they sin or that it shall not be imputed to them while they are guilty of it for does not the Light of Christ discover in man his sin and reprove him for it when he is guilty of it They that know it can tell though it s hid from these said accusers Again I. H. and T. M. say David saith no man living is so free from sin as to be justified if God enter into Judgment with them and to prove it bring Psa. 143. 2. Answ. This is a lye against David for these are not his words he said not that no man living is so free from sin as to be justified c. For when the enemy had persecuted Davids Soul and had Smitten his Life down to the Ground he said enter not into Judgment with thy Servant O Lord for in thy sight shall no man living be Justified Which relates to that state wherein the Enemy hath Power that the life is Smitten down to the Ground and man cannot be Justified but thorow the death to that which Judgment is to So this Scripture they have brought proves no more that the Saints are not freed from sin in this life then it does that they are not Justified in Gods sight while in this life when as the Saints were Justified from that which the Judgments of God was to and such could say its not I that live but Christ in me To our saying touching Christs Body that the Body is one and hath many Members 1 Cor. 12 12. I. H. and T. M. answer that 's said both of a Personal and Mistical body or Society in different sences and then they say true also that the body of Christ either Personal or Mistical is not Carnal but Spiritual REP. Here they darken the minds of the simple by words which they have no Scripture for for the Scripture no where speaks of Christ having a Personall body and a Mistical body and yet both Spiritual For if he hath two Spiritual bodies wherefore do they say the one is Personal and the other Mistical as if then both were not Mistical and whence came that distinction in these words from the Papists What is not that which is Spiritual Mistical according to their own words but Paul saith as the body is one and
transgressions are multiplyed before thee c. Would we not have said oh thou Hypocrite hast thou been crying out against us as blind and Brutish and doest thou grope like a blind man you say Answ. You have herein supposed falsely for we should not have had the same ground to call David and Isaiah Hypocrites that we have to call you so for you never came to that Innocency and Righteousness they came to after they had confessed their Sins for they suffered the Terrours of the Lord for them and Iniquity was Davids Burthen In so much that he was bowed down greatly and went mourning all the day long and so he and the Prophets did not onely Confesse their Sins but also forsook them and by the Spirit of Judgement and burning they were purged from their Iniquities But you still continue in your Iniquities and abusing Gods Truth and never suffered the Terrours of the Lord nor sorrowed as David did nor ever became such Righteous men as David was For he was not a contender for Sin not in the hireling Priests steps as you are And as for Isaiahs saying we grope for the Wall like the blinde we grope as If we had no eyes c. This Relates more to the unrighteous Rulers and Jews as an effect of their Iniquities than it doth to any Guilt the Prophet had for he was then a Seer and bad eyes that saw the Light and the straight path for he said of the Jews that their hands were defiled with Blood their Feet ran to Evil the way of Peace they knew not and there was no Judgement in their Goings Therefore said he is Judgement far from us neither doth Justice overtake us we wait for Light but behold obscurity for Brightness but we walk in darkness we grope for the Wall like the blinde See Isai. 59. 2. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10. But mark how it was the Prophets Burthen that the peoples Iniquity was thus great for he saith we roar all like bears and mourn sore like Doves we look for Judgement but there is none for Salvation but it is far off from us vers. 11. but it does not appear that ever John Horn or either old Tho. Moore or the younger have ever thus Roared and mourned because of Iniquity as the Prophet Isaiah did for if they did they would not plead for it as they do nor are they come into his Innocency who are Guilty of Sin with the Nation and have a share in the Nations pollutions as they confesse and yet continue in their Iniquity of lying and abusing the Truth which the Prophets and holy men of God did not so that they cannot hide themselves and their Guilt and Deceit though they have taken it upon them to Reprove the Teachers and People of the Nation Since that John Horn and Tho. Moore have confessed us called Quakers a heavy judgement of God which he hath ordered to punish them for their neglect of Christ and their abuse of his Truth and we asked them why they Rage so against Gods Judgement Seeing they have sinned so against him To this they say were not the false Prophets and Deceivers alwayes a Judgement And did not the Prophets and Apostles alwayes Reprove them and warn People of them Answ. Here again their folly appears for neither have they proved us false Prophets and Deceivers as they were the True Prophets and Apostles Reproved nor yet that they themselves are as the true Prophets and Ministers were who owned Gods Judgements in their place and did not abuse the Truth as they do but Mark where does the Scripture ever say that false Prophets and Deceivers were ordered of God as a heavy Judgement to punish his true Prophets for their Neglect of Christ and abuse of his Truth as these mens words Imply seeing they count themselves true Ministers us Deceivers ordered of God as a heavy Judgement to punish them for their abuse of the Truth Again their counting us a Judgement as the Deceivers and false Prophets were whom the true Prophets reproved belongs to themselves not to us for these Deceivers were such as sought for their Gain from their quarters and Preached for Hire and Rewards and stole the words from their Neighbours saying thus saith the Lord when God never spoke to them and strengthened the hands of Evil doers that they might not forsake their Sins and were in their Lyes and Lightness all which John Horn and Thomas Moore Especially the Elder are evidently Guilty for they have much contended for Sin declared their own Conceptions and Devinations and J. H. hath pleaded for their taking Tythes and Hire And further J. H. in his Book called Truth's Triumph hath gone about to clear himself like as they have done here before as where I counted it absurd for him to say that People ought to account the Quakers accursed whom they have said to be an heavy Judgement to them for then they must Count the Judgement of God accursed to this J. H. saith in pag 8. for doth not Judgement begin at the House of God 1 Pet. 4. 17. and doth he not ordain wicked men for Judgement such as the Caldeans and false Teachers Jude 4. and Satan too as to Job Answ. Here J. H. his deceit is seen plainly who would fain be accounted as a sufferer with Job and one in the House of the Lord but did God ever set Deceivers to be a heavy Judgement over his house to punish it for its abuse of the Truth as J. H. hath acknowledged we are to him and such as he is For the House of God is the Pillar and Ground of Truth and was that Judgement Deceivers which began at the House of God Surely J. H. hath under-vallued the House of God neither was Job such an abuser of the Truth nor a Lyar as J. H. is nor did he suffer as such a one when God tryed him for he was a Perfect and an upright Man and one that feared God and Eschewed evil such as J. H. is not to be sure so what was done to Job was to try him Neither can he prove us such as the Caldeans were Job 1. 17. nor are we a Judgement to Gods House but a refreshment and blessing to them that are in it And as for the false Teachers spoken of in Jude they were even such as J. H. is filthy Dreamers that spoke evil of the things they knew not as he doth and went in the way of Cain to Envy and after the Error of Balaam for Reward and spake great swelling words of vanity having mens persons in Admiration because of Advantage as J. H. hath And after that J. Horne hath been pleading for Tythes and Hire he and T. M. in Page 71. Lay down as their Principle That the Priests and Levites even when they were such as blind Watchmen and Ignorant prophane Persons the Lord faults the People for not bringing in and giving them that which he by his Law made
the Believers and not the Anointed which is also false for Jesus Christ is the Anointed of God who is in the Saints and the Anointed and Anointing is not devided J. H. and T. M. p. 94. That Christ in the Body of his Flesh may be truly and properly said to be Ascended or gone up far above all Heavens not onely in respect of Glory and Dignity but even in respect of place or Local height also Rep. But what place or Local height it is that Christ is Ascended into far above all Heavens Eph. 4. 10. you have not discovered but say it was Heaven it self or the Heaven of Heavens as if you had said Heaven itself the Heaven of Heavens is far above all Heavens and then it must be far above itself when the Apostle saith he that Descended is the same also that Ascended up far above all Heavens that he might fill all things Eph. 4. 9. 10. and it is the same that first Descended that Ascended far above all Heavens this is spoken without exception of place or Loâ—â— height as you except and the Heaven of Heavens cannot contain that glory that he is in who is ascended who is both in the Heavens and far above them all Our 10th Question is where or how came Christ into the House where his Disciples were met after his Resurrection the doors being shut John 20. 19 26. have not some of you said that then his body being spirituallized it glyded in at the key hole of the door you answer That none of you have said as related Reply But in this you have not all cleared your selves from speaking these or the like words for one that informed me how Thomas Moor the elder spoke of Christs body glyding in at the key hole of the door hath been one of his own hearers whom I know durst not bely him but would be willing to witness it openly to his face if called to it and Barthel Wormel Alderman who owns you did not go about to clear T. Moor from what was said of him as mentioned when he took upon him to answer that question and it appears that T. M. and you have had such like whimseyes in your minds by what follows where you say these words viz. Further also you are assured that even the Children of the first Resurrection when they shall attain to that Resurrection of the dead and have their bodies that now are vile fashioned into the likeness of his glorious body they in those very bodies being spiritual immortal powerful incorruptible shall be equal to the Angels who cannot be hindred from passage by any corruptible things as doors walls or the like but can make their own passage thorow any such obstacles more easily than mortal bodies through the Ayr and why should it be thought a thing incredible c. Reply Here people may see these mens imaginations and dreams and how against what they have professed they would appear wise above what is written for we never read in all the Scriptures that the Children of the first Resurrection in these very bodies of flesh and bones shall be so equal to the Angels in the Resurrection as that they may make their own passage thowrow any such obstacles as doors walls and the like more easily than mortal bodies through the Ayr as you may see plainly these men imagin wherein they shew themselves intruders into things they have not seen being vainly puft up in their fleshly minds and more like such as are peeping and muttering and running into sorcery and magick then men in the simplicity of the Gospel for it is not at all natural nor proper to a body of flesh and bones it being of such a substance to make its own passage thorow doors and walls more easily than now it can thorow the Ayr thus have they shewed their dreaming in the night of thick darkness that is over them And in P. 129. J. H. and T. M. are speaking about the second coming of Christ and say that his second coming his glorious appearing never yet hath been to any nor now is c. Reply herein they might as well say that then never yet were any come to Salvation by Christ for his second coming is without sin unto Salvation and for the same end he will appear to them that yet look for him even to save them from their sins for his coming in the flesh wherein he was once offered to bear the sins of many Heb. 9. 28. This was one coming of Christ and after this the Saints who looked for him received his coming in Spirit to work their Redemption and to make them witnesses of his Kingdome Glory and Reign and to Reign with him over darkness and unrighteousness but these things have these deceivers put afar off and discern not Christs Kingdome Reign and where they say that Christ shall then stay all the wicked even every one that doth not presently submit to serve him and his People and that then all the Saints that come with him shall have immortal bodies being as equal to the Angels and that they shall Reign with Christ on Earth and Judge the World until the final and eternal Judgment seize upon all the ungodly at the last and general Resurrection Reply Herein they have spoken but faintly and in darkness for what service it is they imagin the People of God shall then have from the wicked when they shall be in these raised immortal bodies they have not told us nor what need the Saints in these immortal bodies can have of the other part of the Creation or of the wicked to serve them especially if their bodies be such as can make their passage so immediately thowrow any such obstacles as doors and walls as these men have said and yet these bodies must be bodies of flesh and bones according to their words But these vain conceptions do arise from the same Spirit in them that leads them into pride self-exaltation and to look for master-ship in the Earth like those that look to gain an Earthly Kingdome or to Reign with Christ in some outward pomp and glory and so to bring all under them and then they would be Lords indeed but their expectations after that will fail them as for their bringing Revel. 20. 4 6. It proves not what they would have it nor the other Scriptures they have blindly quoted that Christ shall personally Reign a thousand years * for in Revel. 20. 5. it ' spoken of the first Resurrection which he is blessed that hath a part in for then he hath a part in Christ who is the Resurrection the life whose Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdome which hath already appeared unto his People and is set up among them that they are come to Reign with him over the World and it's deceivers and these men as appears imagin that after Christ hath at his coming raised the dead bodies of the Saints and reigned
answered again Herein hast thou shamefully Lyed again for thou hast gone about thorow much of thy Book to plead thy own Cause and hast not taken good Hezekiah's Counsel as thou hast pretended but hast answered again though to thy own confusion And in Pag. 7. Where thou sayest The Quakers would be thought to be better than the Prophets and Apostles This is thy Lye and slander J. H. And in Pag 8. To my saying the true Prophet sayes all his Judgements were before me and as for his Statutes I did not depart from them I was also upright before him and have kept my self from my iniquity 2 Sam. 22. 24 but thou sayest that David acknowledges he had then Iniquity for how was Iniquity his if there was none in him In which thou hast perverted Davids words for David saith he kept himself from his Iniquity and did not depart from the Statutes of the Lord so that then he was not a Sinner and our transgressions and our Sins the Saints spoke of when they were washed from them and their transgressions done far from them Psal. 103. 12. Rev. 1. 5. In P. 9. J. H. Saith It is true too that God promises that his People shall be all Righteous and clean from all their filthiness c. and that God is performing his promises to them that they may all be perfectly Righteous even in themselves in the New Heaven and Earth and New Jerusalem where shall be no unclean thing he saith To which Reply In this hath John Horn overthrown his former Doctrine for if the People of God shall be cleansed from all their filthiness as in Ezek. 36. 25. and be all perfectly Righteous in the New Jerusalem then they are not to be Sinners nor have sin in them so long as they live as J. H. hath affirmed for the Saints before their decease were come unto New Jerusalem and to be Citizens there and to a Kingdom that could not be shaken into which no unclean thing could come and to see the removing of the old Earth and Heaven which were shaken Ephes. 2. 19. Col. 1. 13. Heb. 12. which yet J. H. and all such as he who are contending for the Devils work are Ignorant of And as for those that John saw Rev. 14. who were without fault before the Throne of God I. H. saith all that heartily believe in Christ and are not moved away from the hope of the Gospel it is Christs Office to present them holy unblameable and without Reproof in Gods sight Col. 1. 22 23. not because they are sinless in themselves he saith Mark his confusion and deceit here according to J. H. his words here the Saints who are without fault before the Throne of God and holy blameless and without Reproof in Gods sight are Sinners notwithstanding as if sin were no fault and not to be Reproved or blamed in Gods sight Oh! what darkness and deceit art thou in I. H. what art thou wholly past feeling doest thou not know in thy own particular that every Sin thou hast is Reproveable and art thou not Reproved in thy own Conscience by the Light for it surely thou art exceedingly hardened and hast denyed Christs Office in thy contending for sin to continue even in them whom Christ presents Holy unblameable and without reproof in Gods sight who live not to themselves but unto the Lord And in P. 10. I. H. Saith He that in such a sence as in 1 Joh. 1. 9. confesseth his Sins is Righteous as Christ is Righteous for Christ is his Righteousness and yet he that confesseth his sin is not without sin in himself In which he hath uttered Blasphemy against Christ for Christ hath no Sin in himself to confess as they have who are but confessing their Sins which they have who are not freed from Sin for they who are Righteous as Christ is Righteous do witness Sin condemned in the flesh and destroyed and walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit being purified from all the filthiness of flesh and Spirit And to my saying that Paul witnessed the groaning and travelling in pain before the Birth was born in him or before he was Born of God which I. H. hath deceitfully perverted and wronged my words about and that Paul spake to Conditions below his own to the Romans which I. H. saith cannot be true and the other too for if Paul was but then groaning to be born and not born of God he spake of his own state and if he spake to others states below his own then is it not true that he had while an Apostle a time in which he was not born of God To which I say in this hath he shewed his blindness and falsehood for he hath not a ground for these cavals against me in that I never affirmed that Paul was but groaning to be born of God when he wrote to the Romans nor that he was not born of God when an Apostle but I know he witnessed the groaning and travelling in pain before the free born state was witnessed in him as also after he was come into that state himself he suffered with the body where it suffered and travailed for its redemption where it was not redeemed which body was not one member but many and for the suffering seeds-sake in those members Paul condescended to states below his own even when he wrote to the Romans all which he himself could not then be in when he so wrote yet a sufferer and a traveller under all those burthens which the body under went about whose condescending I have more fully writ in that Book called the Quakers no Deceivers Page 14. 15 16 17. the truth's whereof J. H. cannot get over for all his cavails And where thou sayest J. H. in P. 9. that the temptations God tries his People with are to try and purifie their faith from the mixtures therein In this thou art ignorant of the faith of Gods elect and the mystery of it for it is pure and stands in the power of God where there is no mixture of sin it being of another nature than sin for it worketh sin out J. H. in P. 16. Speaking of the birth which is born of God he saith he denies not but in that birth there might be degrees and grouth after nor will the perfection of it be as to the body till the resurrection thereof from the Dead To which I say that birth thou never knew nor its perfection For how could the body be a Temple for the Lord if the perfection of the birth be not as to it For the Saints were born of water and the Spirit which cleansed them from all filthiness of flesh and Spirit so that they became members of his body of his flesh and of his bone J. H. saith The Prophet Isaiah doth not witness that in them a Child was born and a Son in them was given Answ. Christ was the first born in many Brethren {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman}