he acknowledges even he among others that they had sins and iniquities but they being kept from serving and living in them God dealt not with them after them but after the righteousnes and cleannesse found according to the spirit or inward man even as Paul when he had said he served with his mind the Law of God but with his flesh the law of sin yet adds there is therefore no condemnation to them that walke not after the flesh but after the spirit God therein deals with them according to their cleannesse in Christ and in their walking after the spirit and not after their sin in their members so that quotation also clearly failes him It is true too that God promises that his people shall be all righteous and clean from all their filthinesse yea and they are righteous in Christ and his blood actually and continually cleanseth them but that proves not that the Saints and Prophets ever boasted themselves to be without sin But even they that said the blood of Christ cleanseth us from all sin say too imediately after if we say we have no sin we deceive our selves nay seeing Gods afflicting his people is to purge away their sin as Isa 27.8 9. and the temptations he tries them with are to try and purifie their faith from the mixtures therein both of them being as baptizings with water and fire to those ends it appeares that so long as they are subject to afflictions and tryals which is so long as they live death it self being one way of afflicting and trying they have drosse and uncleannesse to be purged from and God is performing his promises to them therein that they may be all perfectly righteous even in themselves in the new heaven and earth and new Jerusalem where shall be no unclean thing and where shall be the full accomplishment of Gods righteousnesse upon them to which also Isa 60. alludes As for those that John saw Rev. 14. that were without fault before the Throne of God and that could sing to the Lord a new song I say all that heartily believe in Christ and are not moved away from the hope of the Gospel it is Christs office to present them holy unblameable and without reproof in Gods sight Col. 1.22.23 not because they are sinless in themselves but because they are in him who is their perfect righteousnesse nor is that the new song they sing that in us is no fault or blame but while they accuse themselves and confesse their sins he is just and faithful and forgives them and so presents them in himself without blame before God and their song is praises or salvation to the Lord as in Psal 40.23 David sung that new song and yet complained of innumerable sins and evils compassing him about in himself See else Psal 40.11 12 13. So that still here appears in George nothing but ignorant mistakes or the spirit of deceit He adds that that song cannot be sung by those that are in their iniquities and pleading for sins being enemies to the state of the new creature But he herein grosly prevaricates and deceives his Reader confounding mens having sin in them and confessing their sins with men being in sin and pleading for it between which is a vast difference Paul was not in his sin but in Christ nor did he plead for sin but strive against it and deny it when he said sin was in him and bewailed that he did what he would not We say not then that the true Apostles and Prophets were in sin and pleaded for it but had sin in them and bewailed their sins nor do we in so saying plead for sin no more than they did Therefore George herein bewrayes his great ignorance and mistake and his conclusion is meer vanity and deceit viz. That they have a cloud of witnesses and many evidences for their testimonie that it is of God and that what they hold is truth and that all that own God must own them herein Which is all false as by what is said may be seen I sayd that when John said 1 Ioh. 4.17 As he is so are we in this world he could not mean it we are without sin because that 's contrary to his own expressions 1 Ioh. 1.8 This G. W. railes on me for and adds That John who knew the state in which they had sin and in which if they said they had no sin they deceived themselves c. did not say they should have sin so long as in the world for he saith little children let no man deceive you he that doth righteousnesse is righteous as he is righteous 1 John 3.6 7. Plainly implying that they are deceivers that say men cannot be without sin while they are in the World c. Mind Reader the wildness of his answers how he leaves my saying undisproved do what he can for what if Iohn did not say in expresse words that they should have sin so long as they were in this world Seeing that Scripture speaks of what they were at present as he is so we are in this world it's enough to proove that what Iohn said there of their present state may not be interpreted as the Quakers do that they were then without sin seeing it crosses what he said before of their present estate in that respect And what though he that doth righteousnes is righteous even as he is righteous that proves not that he that doth righteousnesse hath no sin in him for he that confesses his sins doth righteousnesse therein otherwise how is it righteousnesse and faithfulnesse in God to forgive him 1 Iohn 1.9 So then he that in such a sense as in that 1 Iohn 1.9 confesseth his sins is righteous as Christ is righteous for Christ is his righteousnesse and yet he that confesseth his sin is not without sin in himselfe for then he should confesse a falsehood And what though as he adds that in 1 Iohn 4.17 have relation to their dwelling in God and God in them that 's but George's affirmation do not they that walke in the light as he is in the light dwell in God and God in them and yet have sins that the blood of Christ cleanseth them from and if they sayd they have no sin they deceive themselves 1 Iohn 1.7 8. I say the true Apostles Prophets used not to glory in their perfection and finlesnesse He answers Then they used not to glory in Christ and who is it that will believe this deceit for Christ was their righteousnesse and persection See Reader what a deceitful man is this that leaves out the word sinlesnesse which I added on purpose to shew what perfection I meant of and then to ask if the Apostles gloried not in a perfection which he was sure I meant not of for though Christ be by the gift of God their perfection yet he is not their personal sinlesnesse or selfe perfection that I spake of these men are good at little but at crafty
confusion as not knowing how to phrase it intending saith he as 1 Iohn 3.9 who cannot sin it seems he was so baffled that he could not then tell us his intention nor now doth explain here those in 1 Joh. 3. are said to be born of God only seems to imply that he thinks there be other kinds of being born of God than that speaks of which would or could he have cleared himself he should have proved and not so spoken without distinction and understanding He adds that Paul could sin when he could do the evil he would not which yet he proves not seeing he expresly saies it was not he that did it but sin that dwelt in him and to the Galatians that the flesh lusting against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh they could not do what they would and so it was there with him as the law in his members warring against the law in his minde he could not do what in his spirit he would so the inner man or spirit delighting in the law of God and lusting against the flesh or law in his members he could not do what his flesh would and what sin in him did yea what his members or flesh and so he as denominated by it did he as in the spirit or according to the inner man accoring to which John saies whosoever is born of God cannot sin could not do What he adds about his travelling in pain for deliverance from the bondage of corruption and that where the son or birth from above is born the glorious liberty of the Sons of God is injoyed which the creatures waited for and the travelling in pain for deliverance is ceased as also the first clause of his saying above related that Paul witnessed the groaning and travelling in pain before the birth was born in him Is all besides the bush as in our relation of the discourse also is evidenced for as I then and there cleared it what Paul saies of travelling in pain and of deliverance from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the Sons of God he saies of the whole creation distinguishing himself and the Sons of God who had then received the first fruites of the spirit from the creature before spoken of as is clear Rom. 8.20 21 22 23. for he saies not only they but we our selves also that have the first fruits of the spirit even we our selves groan within our selves waiting for the adoption the redemption of the body It 's clear that the Apostles there in ver 19 20. c. speakes of the restitution of all things spoken of by the Prophets as Act. 3.21 When the glory of the Sons of God that now suffer with Christ as ver 17. even to the bodily death shall be revealed and when the creature it self as distinct from them even the fabrick of the world shall be renewed and freed from the bondage of corruption that it is by occasion of mens sins subjected to in hope for which freedome in it's kind it groans and travels together till now and for the redemption of the body then also to be effected from the bondage to what it suffers now and shall lye under in some things till then they the Sons of God distinct from the other creatures also waiting groaned what groaning or travelling was necessary to precede the being born of God Joh. 1.12 13. so as to be made Sons of God Paul and the other holy Apostles and Prophets had it in their receiving Christ before they were made Apostles and Prophers though I deny not but in that birth there might be degrees and growth after nor will the perfection of it be as to the body till the resurrection thereof from the dead So that yet it abides firme that Paul when born of God confessed he had sin dwelt yet in him Whereas he adds That I perverted his comparison and that it was not intended to prove that Paul was not born into the world according to the flesh wherewith he travelled c. I answer that G. W. grosly plaies the Sophister in representing me as wresting his comparison to any such intention It 's evident what I said is to this purpose that as no woman travells with natural children before she her selfe be born and be a woman So neither did Paul groan for the resurrection of the body till himself was born of God in the mind and spirit and so that he was born of God when he so groaned as he there speaks of His quotation of John 16.21 22. is impertinent for Christ speaks there of the sorrow they had before the spirit was powred down upon them before they were sent out into all the world as Act. 1.8 with Luke 24.49 which Paul had before he was an Apostle and so before he made that confession of sin Act. 9.17 in Rom. 7.17.20 or else also of their having sorrow in travelling to bring forth the knowledg of Christ in others and their joy after in their being brought forth unto God and most fully when they shal be presented with them together at the great appearance of Christ in his glory at the resurrection of the just as 2 Cor. 4.11 12 13 14. that in Jer. 30.6 speaking of Jacobs sorrow in captivity and their joy in their return again is yet more impertinently alledged by him and so is that in Isa 9.6 abused for the Prophet Isaiah doth not witnesse as George pretends that in them a child was born in them a son was given but to them which he speaks prophetically of Christ given in the counsel purpose and promise of God and to be born in his time which he speaks of for its certainty as if then accomplished though not to themselves but to us in these after ages they ministred the things now preached as accomplished as the Apostle Peter tells us 1 Pet. 1.11 12. His confusion in saying one while The Disciples travelled in sorrow before the man or birth from above was born in them and presently that they were in pain before they became that birth I passe as also his judging me as ignorant of the states he speaks of their talking of a babe in them fashioning their bodies to the likenesse here of Christs glorious body I have writ and yet do testifie against as arguing their unbelief and denyal of the resurrection of the body and the power of Christ thereto which makes them turne the things thereabout into fancies and allegories of their own divifing which shews them to be such as subvert the faith and such as are to be counted accursed That I wickedly belyed the people in saying they all laught because many of his friends and others that were sober minded did not join with them c. Is as false as that Mathew wickedly belyed the people of Judea and about Jordan in saying all Judea and all the regions about Jordan went out to John and were baptized of him when it appears that the
Apostle condescended to the Romans to several states which be passed through and which was below his own when he writ to them Which is not to the purpose For when he writes to the Romans of the states he had passed through he writes of them as things past not as present as Rom. 5.10 When we were enemies he reconsiled us he saies not we are yet enemies so Chap. 7.9 I was alive without the Law but when the Law came sin revived and I dyed and so in 1 Tim. 1.13 Who was before a blasphemer and a Persecutor and injurious we never find him when he was an Apostle to say I am a blasphemer c. But of sin being in him he writes in the present time I know that in me that is in my flesh there dwells no good thing and I am carnal sold under sin not I sell my self to sin as Ahab but am sold as by an other with reference to what was done to him in Adam and yet remained upon him as to the flesh and that he spake of himself too and not of others excluding himself is evident ver 25. So then I my selfe marke he saies I my self with my mind serve he saies not did serve the Law of God but with my flesh the Law of sin Should we say we our selves do what we only mean others do he and his fellowes would call us lyers and yet he fears not to fasten such an imputation in effect upon the Apostles one after another He would confirme his former saying from Rom. 6.19 which is to as little purpose as if he had quoted Gen. 1.1 For the Apostle there speaks nothing of himself or of any state that he saies he was then in as mentioning his own person but speaking of spiritual things under earthly metaphors as of Masters and Servants and freedom from servitude He saies I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmitie of your flesh But is this the manner of men to speak untruths of them selves as to say they are in that state they are not to make their speech more understandable or doth the Apostle speak any thing sounding to that sense there He saies not there I yeeld my members servants to uncleannesse but as ye have in time past yielded your members servants to uncleannesse c. so yeeld your members now servants of righteousnesse Was it not as understandable for the Apostle to have said I did sometime find a Law in my members but now I have got rid of it and there is no sin in me as if it had been so as to say I do see a law in my members yea might not this more encourage them to sin than that if it be as G. W. often casts upon us a pleading for sin to confess that sin is in the Saints It clearly appears in all this still that G.W. is much out of the way and the truth is neither in nor with him for where it could distinguish between Paul as after the flesh and as after the spirit in the same time in his flesh in bondage and in his mind free and waiting for the deliverance of his body too in due time both from sins and sufferings But how can he distinguish such things that could not distinguish things nearer hand But whereas I said I was able in the strength of God to worry such Foxes as he that is to bassle and confound them as I also actually was helpt to do yet because I say after that people see I was weary and spent he vapors as if I was not therefore in the strength of God forgeting that of the Apostle that at the same time in different respects a man may be strong and weak both when I am weak then am I strong and I was among you in weakenesse yet my speech was in the demonstration of the spirit and power 1 Cor 2.3 4. Surely when I said I was able to worry him in the strength of the Lord I did not say or signifie nor could any of the people I suppose so apprehend me that I was able to beat him at handicuffs or had stronger Lungs then he but that I was able by the power of the truth to make manifest his deceits which also God gave me bodyly strength to do so as to the satisfaction of the indifferent auditory and had I needed more to that I question not but he would have given it me He that cannot distinguish spiritual strength from bodily how should he distinguish between Pauls state after the spirit and his state at the same time after the flesh As a man in the flesh warring yet against sin and wishing for deliverance for that 's the force of that phrase who will deliver as Deut. 5.29 according to the Hebrew who will give them an heart to fear me argues not that the Lord was ignorant or doubted who would but an earnest desire that they had such an heart but in the same time he thanked God by Jesus Christ Rom. 7.24 25. and so Paul was free in his spirit and more than a conqueror in all his sufferings though Christ who dwelt in his heart by faith though I never read what G. W. intimates that Christ was in Pauls flesh though therein and therethrough he might manifest his power and vertues but us to his body that was not above prison and weaknesse and death even so neither was his flesh free from sin being in it though his spirit was set free and above it Paul saith he made himselfe a servant to all that he might gain the more and became a Jew to the Jew and weak to the weak True in his use of indifferent things such as meats drinks wages c. But he became not a Jew to the Jew in not believing or confessing Jesus to be the Christ and though to those that being weak in the Faith doubted of their liberty to some such outward things as before mentioned he also abstained from the use of his freedome to them not telling them of his liberty lest he should offend them but in those things having his faith to himselfe as if he also was weake as he advises others Rom. 14.22 1 Cor. 10.28 29. Yet it 's evident that was not the case here For to what purpose should he pretend in some places to be in such states in other places of the same Epistle to the same people express himself to be far above such states as G.W. saies he did in saying he was at peace with God c. So that these appear as indeed they are silly shifts of G. W. to hide the nakednesse of his assertion and corruption of his judgement but they will not do it As for his personal accusations of us as uncivil and bawling and wrangling and desiring to tie him up to Yea and Nay they are vain and false accusations and so I shall passe them As also his after insinuations of rantings and loves amongst us and of a woman
would have people believe me in are in part that very words of the Prophets and holy men of God and so if I drove at that to make people believe those things I drove but at the making them believe the truth of the Scriptures in those sayings and by consequence George indeavoured to drive them from believing them For that there is not a just man upon earth that doth good and sinneth not and no man that sins not is not mine but Solomons by the spirit of truth I trow Eccles 7.20 1 Kings 8.46 and that no man is perfectly freed from sin in all respects in this life is evident both in Psal 143.2 and in that sicknesses diseases and mortality that came in by sin abides upon all men till death yea and the bodily death that came in by sin abides upon all till the resurrection and so long as any fruit of sin abides upon a man he is not perfectly in all respects freed from sin And to say as he doth that the asserting these things is the making way for my Fathers Kingdome which is upheld by sin as much as I could is evident blasphemy For God being my Father at least by creation as he after though erroniously saies the Disciples were taught so to call him their Father his kingdome is not upheld by sin and if he calls him the Devil he blasphemes or if he judge the Devil to be my Father as no doubt his charity leads him yet then he blasphemes the spirit of truth which breathed in the holy men of God while he makes the asserting their sayings a warring for the Devils kingdome that they be their sayings the places above quoted with Rom. 7.17 20 21 22 23. Jam. 3.2 1 John 1.8 10. and 2.1 2. make it evident See Reader how this man discovers his shame and falsehood in al his oppositions his intimations that we denyed him liberty to speak in evidence of his pretended truths is so false that the contrary namely that when he would have been reading and at other times he was called upon again and again to answer he would not for some time yea and sometime he had liberty or took it to talke so much that I could not have liberty to reply upon him and the calling out of the company to him to answer or else own himself proved a deceiver and perhaps sometimes laughing at his folly is that he calls the incivility towards him and clamoring of many at once against him And where he saies that many hearing him with sobernesse was as appeares a grief to me and probably some cause of my publishing of an imperfect relation of the discourse in print to render him and what he calls the truth odious and in my pride to make people believe I had got the victory I avouch in the presence of God that the people hearing him with sobernesse was no grief at all to me or any thing that I see as making against me in the people and if it appears so to him it 's because his eye sees by a false light and the spirit of truth guids him not therein I was very much rejoiced in the Lord to see his helpfulnesse afforded me and Geo. Whit. so made manifest to the people and the people so satisfied for which cause also I published as perfect a relation of the discourse of these points spoken to as possible I could and could I possibly have come by every word or fillable of it I was not afraid nor ashamed to make it publick knowing right well the more perfectly it had been published the more perfectly his folly had been made manifest So that if what I have published in print render him odious it is because his folly and deceit in the dispute was such as deserved it As for what he saies he shall make good against me in the strength of God it will appear to be but a deceived vapour in him by what I shall through Gods assistance say here to his two latter charges which he saies his Treatise makes good namely That my Ministry in which he falsly saies I contend for sin just as the Apostle John did in 1 Joh. 1.8 10. with 2.1 is Anti-Christian and both against the commands promise and works of God and leads to the making both the preaching and praying of Christ and the Saints ineffectual and that 2. I like a chollerick envious man against the truth of God and his people am a forger of lies a false accuser and slanderer and so one of the Dragons army c. By this making good or not making thou maist judge Reader whether the strength of God be with him to make good his former against me by dispute which he could challenge me to in publick either in market place Steeple-house or their meeting house in Lin namely 1. That I am out of the steps of the true Ministers and am in the practice of deceivers an hypocrite and no Minister of Christ and being a parish Priest am guilty of the Priests iniquity in many things against which I have declared And 2. That I uphold a dead formal worship like the world whereunto people are not called by the spirit of truth which is not the true worship and keep people from the life of God and my Ministry formal and corrupt Which his foolish challenge I shall not accept both because his folly and falshood in his boasts of strength to that may be sufficiently discovered in his failers of what he boasts he hath done in his Treatise as also because he therein laies a trap for me to get occation to reproach me for he knowes I sent him word that I should henceforth have no more to do with him but according to the Apostles counsel reject them now should I accept his challenge he and his party would reproach me as they did upon a lesse coloured occasion as a lyer and false Besides these being personal charges and the overflowings of their anger against me because foiled at the dispute and such things as these spoken so much as we thought needful in answer to his former book in which he spits such venemous stuff against me I shall not go about to plead my own cause but leave it to God and rather take good Hezekiahs course when Sennacherib railed upon him that would not have him answered again That he is far from making good his charges in the two other points of it spoken to as he saies in his treatise these things that follow in answer hereunto I hope will fully evince To my proofes for the Scriptures which he only sets down the quotations without saying any thing to them particularly that the Prophets Apostles and holy men of God even after they were Prophets Apostles and holy men came confessing themselves sinners and to have sin He saies I have not made it appear that the Quakers do not so for they own their confessing sin and they have confessed their sins to the Lord as
the same persons with different respects No man living as he is a man from Adam though a believer but as so considered hath sin and sinneth that is doth that that is sinful though it s not imputed to him that believeth because his mind being renewed consents not to it but strives not for it as these men say of us but against it and yet as born of God and according to the spirit or new man the man that believeth and abideth in Christ sins not nor can sin commit or consent to the sin that is and remaineth in his flesh and members and is there to be put off yet and mortified by him He saies Many saw the truth over me Yes over me as my defence and Protection I believe they did and error under my feet But none that saw things rightly could see truth with them nor what they erroneonsly call truth damping or confuting me for then could I not have laughed as he saies or rejoiced over them As for what peace they had in the truth may be conjectured from their want of honesty and truth in all hitherto discovered and I shall not need to grudge them their Peace but wish them more truth that their peace may be therein and not in deceit As for his coming alone into the Congregation that may be and yet it may be truly said his friends came thither with him as the word with signifies a consent with him in their coming also even as though Christ was buried alone before the believers now living were born into the world yet they may be said to be buried with him as those Col. 2.12 My discovery of his deceitful abuse of Psal 103.1 he wisely passes over I hope he is ashamed of it that he neither at his coming then or now hath a word to justifie himselfe therein That I would encourage those in power to persecute him and to cause the outward man to suffer followes not from my saying that they namely those of them amongst us where he hath been proved a Deceiver should do well not to suffer him to speak his pretended words from the Lord except he recant his errors no more than our Saviour encouraged the Church of Thyatyra to persecute Jezebel in reproving the Angel thereof for suffering her to teach to seduce the people Rev. 2.20 and in such waies as he ought not to have suffered Jezebel to teach and seduce in the like way persons in power hinder G. W. or any that are proved to be deceivers without persecution of their bodies except that was persecution Christ approved no more doth it follow that we are such by our own confession as have not the Seal of God upon our foreheads because we say they the Quakers are a heavy judgement of God to us in this Nation and are like the Locusts out of the bottomlesse Pit for it is not said that the Locusts were a judgement or tryal to none that had the Seal of God in their foreheads but that they should not hurt them And I trow the house of God is not hurt by the judgement of God that begins there nor are we hurt by the Quakers though they be troublesome yet by occasion of that trouble blessed be the Lord we have got good they being made as means to provoke as to exercise our selves more to look to God and by contending for his truth against them to grow more clear and confident therein As for his boasts of their borders inlarged See what is said of the false Prophets many shall follow their pernitious waies 2 Pet. 2.2 All they in Asia turned away from Paul 2 Tim. 1.15 Thy were never the better for that not the multitude of followers but the truth of the Doctrine is to be regarded But above all Reader see and admire that a man should be so infatuated or blinded with malice as this G. W. appears to be in his cavilling against the words of the Holy Ghost quoted by me from Psal 63 10. Which he repeats as my words thus I. H. sayth The King Christ shall rejoice in God every one that sweareth by him shall glory c. To which he saies If every one that swears by Christ shall glory then must the drunkards and Lyars and all such prophane persons as swear by him glory And so this Doctrine mark this doctrine which is the Doctrine of the Scripture and only quoted by me with an explication of the word swear too according to the languag of the new Testament for I said every one that sweareth or confesseth which he wilfully â—â—â—â—…ed This Doctrine saies he tends to the encouraging of drunkards and prophane persons in swearing which is against the doctrine of Christ which is against the Oathes and swearing which was under the Law c. What may we think of such a pittiful man as this that shames not thus to revile the Scripture sayings What would he not have those words Printed or read would he take away those Scriptures for fear the Prophane should abuse them Nay ought they not to be taken away as I have heard it said of some of them that they reject the Bible and say it 's good for nothing or fit to be burnt or the like if the Doctrine contained in the Psalmes and Prophets tend to incourage drunkards and Prophane persons in their swearing and be contrary to the Doctrine of Christ If this be not a desperate deceiver that durst thus revile and blasphene the very words of Scripture and a man bitterly malitious that the better to colour over his charge of me therein witholds 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 my explication of the word swearing by the word confessing as it 's explicated in Rom. 14.11 and Philip. 2.11 with Isa 45.23 and so a man not to be listened to but to be accounted accursed I know not who is I might also note his errors in implying the Disciples were taught by Christ to call God Father as he is Creator and not as born of God and that some thing in the Disciples but not the Disciples themselves called Father but they praying in that received what forgiveness they asked but it seems were not to aske that dayly as they did their bread for when they received what they asked then they had to more sin nor need to pray for forgivenesse And so he implies that before they were born of God or could by the Holy Ghost call Father before the Birth was brought forth in them they might pray for forgivenesse as when our Saviour teacht them to call God Father and yet to pray for forgivenesse A deal of such confused Babylonish stuffe George is full of A gaine in asking Why Christ should teach his to pray that his will may be perfectly done in Earth as it is in Heaven if it be not in this world to be done He implies there is nothing to be prayed for but what is here to be enjoyed in this world and so would exclude the coming of Christ
That men in whom sin is are not or cannot be while such compleat in Christ 20. That to have sin in men and to be in those sins is all one 21. That the 63. Psalm verse 11. tends to encourage Drunkards and Prophane persons in swearing which is contrary to the Doctrine of Christ These and such like be his intimations as is before more fully shewed The Lord deliver the Reader from such deceits and make the folly of these men yet more evident that poor Souls may not be snared by them I shall adde no more to G. W. but leave him to the Lords convincement and silencing Who when he sets home his reproâ—… to any of them will do it to such purpose as to stop their clamorous cavils which they cease not to invent and raise up against us though against our clearest confutations of them because they be absurd and unreasonable men The Lord exalt his Name and truth to the rebuke and silence of their errors against him Queries sent by Richard Hubberthorne to us with our answer to them And the like number of Queries sent by I. H. to Richard Hubberthorne to be answered plainly by him Richard Hubberthorne sent these ensuing Queries to us thus entituled These few Queries grounded upon the Scriptures concerning the resurrection of the body of Christ I send unto you to Answer in the form of sound words according to your Faith in the same 1 SEeing the Scripture saith no man Ascended up to Heaven but he that came down from Heaven even the Son of man which is in Heaven with what body was the Son of man then in heaven when the man Christ Jesus was upon the Earth in that boy which was crucified at Jerusalem 2. And when Christ was raised from the dead whither might any 〈…〉 before he was Ascended to the Father seeing he said unto Mary touch me not for I am not yet Ascended to my Father but go to my brethren and tell them I Aseend to my Father and your Father to my God and your God Joh. 20.17 3. And whether at the same time did not the same Mary touch him seeing that in Mat. 28.9 it is said she met Jesus saying All hail and held him by the feet and worshiped him 4. Whether the two men that stood by the Sepulchre in shining garments or white apparrel as in Luke 24.4 which they both saw as men and heard them speak had two real individual distinct bodies as the bodies of men and seeing that those two men and also Jesus is said all to appear in white Linnen or shining apparrel whether had they all bodies alike of flesh and bones which a Spirit hath not as Luk. 24.39 or they only had such bodies as a Spirit hath without flesh and bones 5. And how did the women distinguish which was Christ whether by his bodily appearance not to be like the other or by the power of his voice seeing they all was both seen and heard and Mary when she first saw him knew him not till he first spake to her John 20.16 and seeing that both the Angels and Christ spake the same words to Mary whereby did she distinguish 6. Again seeing the Scripture saith that the same women at the same time found not the body of Christ but returned and said they had seen a vision of Angels which said that he was alive as Luke 24. Ch. at the 23. whether was it only a vision of Angels seen invisible or it was visible bodies or persons of men or visible voices 7. And seeing the Scripture saith in Mat. 28.7 That they should go in Gallilee and there should see him whether did the eleven Disciples first see him at Gallilee or at Jerusalem seeing that Luke saith Luke 24. that the same day in which he did arise he appeared in the midst of them where the eleven were met together in Jerusalem ver 33. and John 20.19 it is said the same day at evening being the first day of the week when the doors were shut Jesus stood in the midst of them here is the eleven mentioned to be met together and yet it is said that Thomas was not among them John 20.24 And after the eight daies in which he appeared to them again Whether in all this time had he Assended to his Father and their Father to his God and their God 8. And whether is not all these things mystery and cannot be seen nor known nor understood as they are but as the Spirit doth open and reveal them Richard Hubberthorne These for John Horne and Thomas More to answer Note here Reader 1. That the form of sound words is according to our Faith in the Resurrection of Christ So the Title perfixed by him implies and that is rightly implyed though hapily more than he intended therein he spake truth like as Caiaphas did 2. That they are not of our Faith and so not of a sound faith about the Resurection of the body of Christ 3. That he saies these Queries be concerning the Resurrection of the body of Christ And yet the first speaks of what Christ said while he was not yet put to death or risen from it And in all the rest he implies his curiosity and evil designe to render the Scriptures but a cunningly devised fable or Allegory having no real truth in them in what they speak about that Resurrection and to that he believes neither it nor them according to their Testimony concerning it but endevours to render them not to be regarded or believed according to their sayings as being full of contradictions and absurdities that so people might wave them and learn the mystery from the Quakers Such wickednesse is clearly enough to those that have the eyes of their understanding opened touched in those Queries as the eighth more clearly implyeth To these Queres I J. Horne returned this following answer which I also prepared for him and had in readinesse to have sent him upon the receit of his answers to my eight Queries after mentioned which seeing I have not hitherto received from him I have now made publick as followeth 1. To the first I say That the Scripture in John 3.13 Doth not say that Christ was in Heaven in his body then and therefore that Question in what body was the Son of man then in Heaven is not grounded on the Scripture Paul was wrapt up into the third heaven when yet his body was upon earth Men may be in their minds and spirits where their bodies are not as Col. 2.5 much more might Christ who was also God He as God or the eternal Word was then in heaven and in his Spirit ascended up to heaven so as no man else could even when his body was upon the Earth and not in heaven as now it is 2. To the second I say some might touch Christ when he was raised from the dead before he was ascended and taken up in his body into heaven there to be and remain
for the confirmation of their faith in the reality of his Resurrection though he said to Mary taking hold of his feet to worship him touch me not for I am not yet ascended Mat. 28.9 with John 20.17 For the Disciples were bid to the end aforesaid to handle and touch him Luke 24.39 John 20.27 3. To the third I say It 's probable Mary did at the same time touch him and intended to worship him with Divine adoration that occasioned his saying to her touch me not even as Cornelius fell down at Peters feet to worship him and worshipt him and John fell down to worship the Angel and both were thereupon forbidden by them so to do Act. 10.25 Rev. 19.20 4. To the fourth The two Angels that stood by the Sepulchre in shining garments or white apparrel c. were two Angels and had two individual formes but that they had bodies as the bodies of men of the same substance with them the Scripture saies not nor do I believe it Nor find I it said that Jesus appeared to his Disciples after his Resurrection in white or shining garments or that he and the Angels had bodies alike of flesh and bones which a spirit hath not nor that a spirit hath a body without flesh and bones or a body at all otherwise then it assumes a body or appearance of a body to appear in And the inquiring and prying into these things about what is written argues a proud Luciferian spirit and a man rashly puft up with fleshly minde not holding the head or an Atheistical deriding and designe to undermine the authority of the Scriptures There is enough in what is revealed to busy ourselves about and no need to inquire of things kept secret as Judg. 13.18 Deut. 29.29 5. To the fifth That the women did distinguish which was Christ is certain but how they did so is curiosity to inquire and persumption to determine one of the foolish and unlearned questions which we are to avoid 2 Tim. 2.23 He that could appear to them in divers forms as he pleased could also appear in such a form as in which they might know him when he pleased and in such a form when he pleased as in which they did not know him as to Mary and the two Disciples going to Enimaus or he could open their eyes to discerne him or hold them from it as he would The like may be said for his speech Luke 24.16 6. The sixth The Angels of whom the women had a vision were seen visibly without doubt for of seeing invisibly I have not heard except in such a fence as the seer be not seen again which was not their case Nor were those Angels bodies or persons of men much lesse had they visible voices as is ignorantly and non-sensically queried Visible voices and audible colours are both alike 7. To the seventh in which are several Queries I say 1. That the 11 Disciples saw him after his Resurrection at Jerusalem before they saw him at Galilee for at Jerusalem they saw him the same day he arose But Galilee was above a daies journey thence Luke 2.44 much lesse could they being in mortal bodies go thither and returne again to Jerusalem the same day 2. To what is said That Luke 24.33 He appeared where the 11 were met together And yet it 's said John 20.24 That Thomas was not there with them I Answer It 's clear That Luke mentions together the things of two appearances to them distinctly mentioned by John And yet 2. It 's not said in Luke that the 11 were together when he appeared but when the two disciples returned How knowest thou but after that Thomas might be gone out before Christs appearing 3. Thomas is called one of the 12. John 20.24 Mathias was chosen into their number and reckoned with them before the Evangelists wrote those books though not before those appearances it may be and the Evangelists might speak of them according to their present accompt of them when he wrote that book And so Thomas who was one of the 12 when the Evangelists wrote being absent there were besides him but 11 of the 12. 3. As for his Ascending to his Father before that time possibly he might be said in such fence as in John 3.13 to have ascended more than once yea frequently in his spirit but in the most proper sense of his body going up thither there to be contained or received till the time of restitution of all things he was not as then ascended 8. To the eighth If by my story you mean that these are not to be taken as they are spoken of I deny it They are a history or relation of things not now to be so done or so seen now as then they were done and seen Though the usefulnesse of them is not to be known and understood but by the Spirits opening it to us in his Testimony concerning him and giving us an understanding therein But herein the Q's corrupt judgement is seen that they imply that they believe not that there was ever any such things really done or seen And so that they are very Atheistical not believing further than their reason can comprehend and therefore where they judge it absurd as generally they do the truth of Christ they turne it into a fancie and believe nothing really as it is recorded Written by J. Horne April 19. 1660. Eight Queries propounded to Richard Hubberthorne by John Horne to which his plain answer is desired accord-to his real mind in them 1. IF the believing Samaritans did know rightly and by the Spirit of truth that Jesus of Nazareth as then come in the flesh is indeed the Christ the Saviour of the world John 4.42 and if Paul was a true Apostle and preacht the truth when he proved that that Jesus is the very Christ And Christ himselfe said truely that his flesh is meat indeed and his blood drink indeed John 6.53 54 55. And the spirit of truth witnesses Christ come in the flesh 1 John 4.2 How canst thou clear thy selfe of being a Deceiver and false Teacher in saying and publishing that Christs coming in the flesh was but a Figure 2. What but a silly deceiver was he G.W. in his answers to the Cambridge Queries who in justification of thy said saying alledged that Christ was transfigured Might it not as well by the same reason be touched that the Apostles and Believers were but forms of men or of godly men because transformed in the renewing of their minds Rom. 12.1 3. And if Christs coming in the flesh was but a figure whether dost thou believe indeed that that Christ or Jesus was a reall man consisting of a real humane body and soul that had in his body real flesh and blood really and verily conceived in the natural womb of a corporal Virgine A Virgine in such sense as other Virgines be before married to or carnally known by any man and born really of her into the world or
dost thou rather believe all those things to be only Allegorically spoken 4. And if thou dost believe that that Jesus the very Christ was indeed a real personal man whether dost thou believe that he really and verily and in a real and very body of flesh dyed and rose in the same real and very body the third day from the dead and therein after 40 daies conversing by times with his disciples ascended or was taken up into heaven and be those things also only figuratively to be taken 5. And whether dost thou believe that the sufferings or dyings of that man in any such real body of flesh and his rising again in the same body and ascending is truly availeable to the taking away or procuring pardon for any mans sin and obtaining blessing and salvation for men or dost thou thy self believe to be saved from thy sin and from destruction by vertue thereof yea or nay 6. Whether dost thou indeed believe that there are any Angels or created spirits distinct from men and what is in men and in other visible creatures yea or nay 7. And if neither the bodies of men that die and go to the grave shall ever be raised out of their graves to a sensible life again nor as Geo. Whitehead implies in some questions sent us the souls of the wicked after death shall come out of Hell again to receive any further judgement Whatof the wicked shall be raised up again after their bodily death and judged to eternal punishment as John 5.29 Mat. 25.46 Is it any thing or nothing and if any thing What is it 8. Doth the soul of the wicked at or after the bodily death go to any hell in which they sustain or feel any torment and if so what is the hell they go to and are tormented in I challenge thee to return me if thon darest a plain and direct answer to these queries according to the very truth and belief of thy heart not giving revilings instead of answers but observing 1 Pet. 3.15 John Horne This was sent him April 19. to which I have as yet received no answer from him this fourteenth of May so that I hope his mouth is stopt with them However for any plain positive and sober answer John Horne Richard Hubberthornes Letter in answer to my Queries is thus London 6th day 4th Mon. 1660. John Horne I Have received a paper of Queries from thee by which it is easily known to be thine by thy preface of lies which is thy usual and accustomed manner and marke of the beast in all thy papers thou saiest I am guilty of seven or eight falshoods but dost not mention any of them neither dost answer my paper which proves to the contrary So thou being so often reproved and yet hardens thy heart against it so if thou wilt be filthy thou maist be filthy still and if thou wilt be unconvinced when the truth hath been so plainly and often declared unto thee thou mayst be wicked still Answ As unto thy first query I can clear my self from being a deceiver or false Teacher in all things which I have spoken and can also prove thee to be a false accuser in saying that I said published that Christs coming in the flesh was but a figure which thing I never said nor published and so thy query is grounded upon a lye But those that did say and publish that falshood of me was thy brethren the hirelings and deceivers at Newcastle upon Tyne and so thou takes their lies to be a strength unto thy own And as for the believing Samaritans they did know by the spirit of truth that Jesus of Nazareth as then come in the flesh was indeed the Saviour of the world and Paul was a true Apostle when he proved that Jesus was the very Christ as Acts 9.22 And that which Christ himselfe said in the first of John 4. and 2. was true but what is all that unto thee to ground thy lye upon as above mentioned Answ As for thy second query calling George Whitehead a silly deceiver for justifying of my saying in his answer to Cambridge queries What G. Whitehead said in that answer to Cambridge Queries was truth and was a question put forth unto them which neither they nor thou hast answered which Query was this Could Christ have been said to have been transfigured if his coming in the flesh had not been a figure or example till his glory was revealed hast thou not read that he was the expresse figure of his Fathers substance instead of which it is translated he is the expresse image c. And if thou wilt prove him a deceiver first deny what he hath said or that it is so written which if thou do affirme thou goest but about to turne the truth of God into a lye and if thou do confesse thou ownes what G. Whitehead hath said and so not prove him a deceiver and as for thy reason to contradict it which is that the Apostles and believers were but forms of godly men because transformed in the renewing of their minds Rom. 12.2 In this thou hast appeared very ignorant void of reason and true comparison for the Apostles and believers were neither in the power nor form of godly men before the renewing of their minds but were children of wrath and were in the form and power of wicked men Answ Againe Thy third Query is grounded upon the same lye with the first if Christs coming in the flesh be but a figure which was never spoken by me nor any of us but if we should say that Christ was an example or was the expresse figure of the Fathers substance yet thereby we do not say that Christs coming in the flesh is but a figure And as for my belief of Jesus he was real man and had a real body prepared for him and in it both soul and spirit power and life which was immortal and Eternal in which body was real flesh and blood and was born of the Virgine according to the Scripture Answ As to the fourth Query that which thou queriest of me thou dost not believe thy selfe that Christ in that very body of flesh and blood and bone in which he suffered did arise again but thou saist with flesh and bone without blood he is in heaven so then not with that real and very body born of the Virgine which thou saist is real flesh and blood and so according to thy own writings not the same But we do believe that in the very same real body in which he after his resurrection did converse with his Disciples is ascended into heaven Answ To thy fifth Query I say That the suffering and dying of that man Jesus and his ascending into heaven is truly available unto those which do receive him by which their sins are taken away and they saved from destruction but those that do not receive him but reject him his light and spirit his suffering dying and rising
again and ascending is not available to the taking away or procuring pardon for their sins for by their rejection of him to teach and lead them into all truth they make his blood and all his works unto them as of none effect To thy sixth Query wherein thou asks whether I do believe there are any Angels or created spirits distinct from men and from what is in man and other visible creatures Answ Whether wouldest thou have any to believe above what is written or where dost thou read that there is any created Angels or created spirits distinct from God which is in man and from all other visible creatures if thou canst shew me any such Angel or created spirit which is distinct both from him which did create it and from all other things created then thou shewest some ground for such a faith but the Scripture is not a rule for any such faith neither doth it speak any such thing and herein thou wouldest appear wise or manifest thy self a fool above what is written and not as one that would be instructed though thou be ignorant Answ To the seventh Query That which shall rise again after death out of the graves is the Seeds and each Seed with its own body for there are two seeds and two bodies which shall arise the one into Everlasting life the other into condemnation Answ To the eighth Query The Souls of the wicked at death go to a Hell where torment is felt which is the eternal wrath of God the just recompence of reward to all hypocrites hirelings and deceivers who have not only refused to receive the truth in the love of it but have also set themselves in enmity against it and this shalt thou also know hereafter better than thou dost now and here is an answer returned unto thee without railing according to 1 Pet. 3.15 Richard Hubberthorne The Reply to Richard Hubberthornes Answer THough there is no end of controversing with evil spirits nor the answers sent by R. Hubberthorne need no Reply the very comparing them with the questions they relate to being a sufficient discovery of Richards erroneousnesse in them to those that are intelligent yet for the sakes of some weaker ones and to stop the mouths of the deceived I shall note his falshoods and deceits therein 1. His falshoods as 1. It 's false That I had in my paper a Preface of lies My Preface was thus Richard Hubberthorne I once received a letter from thee and I gave thee an answer to it in which I noted thee guilty of 7 or 8 falshoods thou didst return me an answer to it but didst neither therein confesse thy evils nor disprove them so that I might slight thee as a proved lyer In that answer I remember I took notice of some corrupt passages about the Resurrection of Christ by which I am satisfied in part that thou art out of the truth yet because thou shouldest not think nor thy party vapor as one of them yester night began to suggest that I am afraid to answer thee 〈◊〉 Thou having not multiplyed thy questions to very many I shall be willing for this once to returne thee an answer to them provided that thou wilt plainly and nakedly answer me in the like number propounded by me to thee and when thou sendest thy answers to them to me thou shalt God willing have mine to thine returned by me this was what he calls my preface of the truth of which in every particular I call God to witnesse between us 2. It 's false that it 's my usual and accustomed manner and the marke of the beast in all my papers to make prefaces of lies a thing said of him without proof 3. It 's false that I said he is guilty of 7 or 8 falshoods for my words were not so but that in his former letter which was some years since sent me I noted him guilty of 7 or 8 falshoods that he is guilty now of them and repented none of them since I affirmed not 4. It 's false that his paper proves to the contrary for neither is his paper in being and so now proves nothing nor did it when in being take notice of those falshoods that I charg'd him with so as to disprove them 5. It 's false that I brought as a reason to contradict G. Whitehead's indeavoured proof that the Apostles and believers were but forms of godly men because transformed in the renewing of their minds Rom. 12.2 for that was not my reason nor my assertion but by saying was my way of question Might it not as well by the same reason be avouched that the Apostles were but formes of men or of Godly men because transformed into the renewing of their minds 6. It 's false that in that saying of mine I appeared very ignorant void of reason true comparison for I appeal to all intelligent men whether the word transformed applyed to the believers signifies not every jot as much that they were before or then also but forms as that the word transfigured applyed to Christ proves that he was or his coming in the flesh a figure or but a figure Besides that he left out part of my saying for I said forms of men or of godly men 7. False it is too that the Apostles or believers before that transforming of them in the renewing of their minds mentioned and exhorted to were neither in the forme nor power of godly men but were children of wrath and in the power and form of wicked men for when the Romans were exhorted to be transformed in the renewing of their minds which as it was a thing but exhorted to they had not as then for exhortations respect things things yet to be done when such exhortations are given they those Romans were believers and Saints and in part renewed as appears in Rom. 1.7 8 12. 8. It 's a grosse falshood that he saies in his answer to Qu. 4. that I do nor believe myself what I query therein of him and as 9. False too that he charges me with querying whether Christ in that very body of flesh blood and bone in which he suffered did arise again My words were not so but whether in a real and very body of flesh he dyed and rose in the same real and very body the third day 10. False it is again that he saies I say with flesh and bone without blood he is in heaven for I have no such saying nor have so determined of it 11. False it is too that he in his next words implies that if he be not in heaven with flesh blood and bones then not with that real and very body born of the Virgine for he was laid into the Sepulchre in that very body born of the Virgin and not with another when as yet his blood was before shed out of that body the body and blood are spoken of as distinct things and his body was his body and the same body in which the