Selected quad for the lemma: spirit_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
spirit_n	flesh_n	law_n	mind_n	7,026	5	6.6163	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A63393	The Quakers rounds, or, A Faithful account of a large discourse between a party of them called Quakers viz. William Fisher and Edward Burroughs, &c with Mr. Philip Taverner, Mr. Richard Goodgroom, and Mr. M. Hall, ministers of the Gospel ... / published by William Taverner, preacher of the Word.	W. F. (William Fisher); Burrough, Edward, 1634-1662.	1658 (1658)	Wing T248; ESTC R31011	28,134	41

For 1. He is God over all blessed for ever so are not we 2. He Christ Jesus hath performed the office of a Mediator between God and Man For there is one God and one Mediator between God and Man the Man Christ Iesus 1 Tim. 2.5 He is the Mediator so are not we ye will not grant every man his own Mediator and consequently so many persons reconciled to God so many Mediators when the Apostle saies there is one God and one Mediator yet but one 3. He is risen from the dead ascended into heaven and sate down at the right hand of the Father in glory so are not we Yet in some other respects as he is so are we but then we must distinguish between the truth of the thing and its manner for things that are like are not like altogether and in all respects for instance 1. He is the Son of God so are we true in respect of the thing but not in respect of the manner Christ the Son of God by nature and eternal generation we the Sons and Daughters of God by the grace of Adoption 2. In respect of holiness and Sanctification as he is so are we true in respect of the thing but not in respect of the manner Christ was holy from his conception and originally but so are not we we are sanctified in time he was perfectly just and holy without any blemish of sin so are not we for there still remains some indwellings of sin in us 3. In respect of those spiritual and heavenly vertues which shined forth in him being meek and lowly humble and self-denying patient towards all and overcoming evil with good c. as he is so are we true in respect of the things themselves but not in respect of the manner or measure Every true Member of Christ doth bear the image and likeness of Christ their Head the same spiritual vertues and true excellencies shine forth both in the Head and Members but with this difference 1. What was and is in the Head originally is found in the Members only as dependants upon Christ their Head 2. What was in the Head to the height of perfection is found in the Members but to some degree 3. What was in the Head without any contrary thereto is found in the Members but with some contrary to it in the same subject they are not perfectly light there is darkness as well as light flesh as well as spirit in the Saints Rom. 7.25 So then with my mind I my self serve the Law of God but with the flesh the Law of Sin The last thing asserted by E. B. and objected against by R. G. was That the Scriptures were given to the World not to the Saints E. B. I do not remember that I spake it in these words R. G. I well remember your words and have neither added nor deminished a tittle E. B. I was speaking to those words Search the Scriptures c. John 5.39 and said that this Scripture was not given to the Saints but to the World at least to the unbeleeving Iews P. T. If this Scripture was given as you say to the World and Unbeleevers only then consequently all other Scriptures were given to the World and not to the Saints for this Search the Scriptures c. relates to and implies in it all other Scriptures E. B. All the Scriptures were not then written P. T. I mean it of such Scriptures as were then extant for this Text cannot be conceived as speaking of that which yet was not those Scriptures which were written after but all Scriptures written aforetime viz. the Law of Moses the Psalmes and the Prophets c. are implied in this and if this were given as you say to the Unbeleeving World and not to the Saints then consequently none of those Scriptures which this relates to were given to the Saints but to the World which I think you will be hardly able to make good W. F. Thou speakest more unreasonably in this than thou hast all the day before P. T. I speak directly to your Friends words who expresses himself Search ye the Scriptures which if it be a Command and this Command reaches no further than to the Unbeleeving World to whom shall we conceive these Scriptures in the judgement of your Friend to be given which this Text relates to It is indeed clear that these words were spoken directly to the Unbeleeving Jews and are rather to be read ye do search the Scriptures for in them ye think to have eternal life and these are they which testifie of me which words are rather a reprehension and reproof to the Jews to whom they are spoke I say a reproof not that they did search the Scriptures for this is a commendable practice and every Christian mans duty Acts 17.11 but that while they searched the Scriptures they still neglected him of whom the Scripture spake they searched the Scriptures but did not beleeve in him Christ Jesus the Messiah promised of whom Moses and the Prophets had written and whom the Scriptures did testifie of For they testifie of me and ye will not come to me vers 40. But now if you will have this a Command and affirm that this Scripture was given to the Unbeleeving World what follows but to those that are commanded and whose duty it is to search into the Scriptures are they given yea to these onely are they given therefore if the Unbeleeving World are onely commanded to search the Scriptures can they be conceived to be given to any other and thus he plainly owns though he would seem to deny it that the Scriptures were given to the World not to the Saints I am of an easie belief that E. B. when he mentioned that text of Iohn 5.29 Search ye the Scriptures or ye do search the Scriptures which may be read either way meant no other but these words when spoken by Christ were spoken to the unbeleeving Jews which is true but then it will not follow that these words which were at first spoken to Unbeleevers were written afterwards the holy Spirit moving holy men of God to this work for their sakes onely to whom they were spoken and consequently that this Scripture was given onely to Unbeleevers viz. the Unbeleeving Jews which were his very words if he hath not forgotten himself For first what are recorded in Scripture as things directed to some particular persons when spoken were not written onely for their sakes to whom spoken but according to that Psal 102.17 These things shall be written for generations to come c. 2. What was formerly spoken of or spoken to Unbeleevers particularly and afterwards committed to writing the holy Spirit moving hereunto was not written meerly for such in future generations to whom they were at first spoken viz. Unbeleevers but for all sorts of persons to whom this Scripture should come 1 Cor. 10.11 Yet thirdly whatsoever was written by those servants of God who were the Pen-men of the

mentioned 2 Pet. 1.19 We have also a more sure word of the Prophets c. The Apostle Peter cals that which the Prophets spake and writ the Word ye will not I hope say the word of man but the word of God in the mouth and writings of the Prophets E. B. The Scripture is that a man may carry up and down with him in his hand or pocket but so he cannot the word yea if the Scripture be the word then I may say I have the word of God in my hand lifting up his Book to the people that all might see it then I may say I have Christ in my hand and I have the Spirit in my hand I have Life and Death Heaven and Hell in my hand c. R. G. You have that in your hand which declares all these these were R. G. words not as some have said you have the thing signified but you have that which Declares all these E. B. So I say this Scripture Declares those things it is a Declaration of the Word but is not it self the Word P. T. It is not the Essentiall word but the Declarative word of God wherein the mind will and counsell of God concerning us is made known E. B. The Word was before any Scripture was given for they were given many years after the creation of the world and some of them at one time some at another but the word was from eternity P. T. Those Doctrins of divine and heavenly truth recorded and delivered to us in the Scriptures were the things of the Spirit of God before committed to writing and remaine the same in this day of the Scriptures and shall be the same when the Scripture viz. the writing shall be no more but this doth not at all contradict what hath been asserted viz. that the thing written is this word of God the mind will and counsell of God given forth to us in writing which we are to own and follow as a Rule to us in all our wayes E. B. I pray all take notice what I say The Scriptures are but writing and therefore cannot be the Word of God the writing is not the Word but the thing written of P. T. You have been sufficiently answered already but you will receive none onely go your Round in a circle We do not affirm that the ABC c. or that words of the Scripture as they consist and are made up of Letters and syllables are the Word of God but that which is exprest by these The Spirit makes use of these words consisting of letters and syllables to speak to us as we are able to bear and to understand and that which is here written viz the mind and meaning of the Spirit exprest in these words in this writing or Scripture is that we call and own the word of God or the things of the Spirit of God Declared and given forth to us in writing The second thing debated was concering Justification which took up neare two hours time wherein I spake little by reason I could fully close with neither party In which discourse words were multiplyed and especially by them called Quakers who would oft-times speak two or three successively giving way to none other I thing I may truely say that I never spent so long time in hearing spirituall things spoken to with lesse profit whatsoever it was to others it was to me a most wearisome and unprofitable Discourse which I shall leave till the last and then give a breife hint of it The third thing laid down formerly by E. B. for Doctrine and now objected against by R. G. was III. That evill motions not consented to were not sin And what plain contradiction is here to own them evill and yet not sin unlesse consented to If evill motions then are they a deviation from the holy righteous and good law of God and consequently unrighteousness and the Apostle tells us All unrighteousness is sin 1 Iohn 5.17 Bellarmine layes it down more subtilly for it is one of his Doctrines when he sayes concupiscence is not sin unless consented to but to grant them evill motions and yet deny them to be sin till consent be given who can be so dull sighted as not to see a plain contradiction in such a position if evil in their own nature how can they be called otherwise then sin even before consented to if neither evil nor sin how can consent make them sin E. B. Thou hast not laid down my words right according to my meaning R. G. They are the very same words I heard you deliver without any alteration W. F. We say that temptations are not sin or transgressions unless consented to Mr. Hall of Colbrook in Middlesex do you speak of temptations from without or such which have their rise from within and out of a mans own heart E. B. I said then and say the same now that temptations unto sin are not sin without consent For the Devill tempted Christ who yet did no sin because he consented not to the temptation R. G. You now speak of temptations which are from without and from the Devil which we grant are not our sin unless consented to but our question is according to what you seemed to own in your discourse whether evil thoughts and motions which are from within and rise out of the heart are not sin unless consented to W. F. Dost thou grant no difference between thoughts and motions R. G. Those motions to sin which arise out of a mans own heart have ever the thoughts going along with them and whether consented to or no Salomon tells us the thought of folly is sin E. B. I say motions to sin are not sin without consent R. G. Such motions which arise out of a mans own heart E. B. Yea Such motions R. G. And take along with you all your own words viz. Evill motions arising out of a mans own heart are not sin unless consented to And what is a contradiction if this be not evil motions and yet not sin our consent makes them more sinful but cannot make them to be sin if they were not such before E. B. They are not my sin although evill in themselves unless I consent R. G. whose sin are they then W. F. They are not his sin unless he consents Ye know the Apostles words It is no more I that do it but sin that dwells in me Rom. 7.20 Mr. Hall Who is that Me in whom sin is found was it not Paul and who is that Him in whom sin dwells is it not Edward Burroughs W. F. Ye see according to the Apostle it is not he that doth it but sin that dwelleth in him Mr. Hall In the Apostle was flesh found as well as spirit and these two were contrary maintaining war one against another the Apostle being the person or subject in whom were both found And while E. B. sayes it is not I but sin that dwels in me Who is the Me in whom

sin dwells but Edward Burroughs a man in whome is flesh as well as Spirit and if he be the subject in whom sin dwells whose is the sin but his in whom it dwells E. B. That which I say concerning evill motions is this That although they are evil in themselves yet they are not sin to me till I consent P. T. You grant them to be evill and sin in themselves before consented to E. B. Yea I do P. T. And that these evill motions which are sin in their own nature are sin in you though not yet consented to E. B. I grant this also but I say though they are sin in me yet they are not sin to me P. T. If by sin to you you mean no more then that God will not enter into judgment against his creatures because of these things nor charge ought of this nature upon them as to condemnation we shall easily grant that God will never impute to or charge upon his servants as a severe Judge against them that which is not allowed by them that sin shall not be imputed or charged upon any to their eternall condemnation which is not consented to owned or allowed of by them E. B. This is the same which I say P. T. But this of Gods not charging it upon the creature to condemnation is onely out of his own Mercy and Free Grace and not as if the thing were not sin or veniall in its own nature yea it is acknowledged by your selves to be in in self sin and sin in its own nature deserves death but yet it is improperly said that it is not sin to you for as it is sin in you which you have granted so is it sin to you in two respects first In point of defilement you are defiled by the indwelling of this sin in you and in this regard it is sin to you And secondly As it is a just matter of reproof that which God doth reprove and will in his good time fully destroy in his people but while it abides and dwells in them it defiles and is that which comes under reproof and in these regards sin to them The fourth thing objected against E. B. was IV. That Perfection is attainable in this Life E. B. Thou didest not take my meaning aright R. G. I heard your words and understood by your discourse that you owned perfection a state attainable in this life E. B. I said that the Saints were to presse on toward perfection R. G. It is granted the duty of all to presse forward to what is before not ceasing or giving over till perfection comes but still while in this life there remains imperfection in those who have attained highest and that of full perfection is to be looked for hereafter a State yet to come E. B. The Scripture speaks in many places of some that were perfect while in this life and this we are to presse after P. T. There is a twofold perfection First In point of freedome from sin secondly in point of spiritual attainments The former is such a state of freedome and deliverance from sin that there remains not so much as the indwellings of any sin in us not so much as a thought motion or the least inclination to the least sin The latter is such a state when the soul is so filled with the light of the glory of God shining in upon it that we cannot say we want yea that we are not capable of receiving or desiring more and we deny either of these a state attainable in this life E. B. I do not say that there is such a perfection in this life which admits of no addition P. T. Then possibly the difference may not be so great between you as it was thought to be And indeed this grant with what was yeelded in the former discourse of sin dwelling in us might have ended the difference and brought over both parts to a joyning issue but that he was not faithfull to his own confessions sometimes granting and at another times falling off again and going about to prove the contrary to his own grants which he did most of all in this business E. B. It is not a thing impossible to attain perfection in this life yea there have been some who have attained it P. T. We do not question concerning the power of God whether it be possible to him to whom nothing is impossible to work such a work in us and for us even here and in this life but whether according to Gods ordinary way of dispensations it be a state that ever hath been or shall be actually attained and come up to while we abide in these houses of clay this I suppose is the question between us and is that which we deny E. B. There have been those that were perfect we speak wisedome among those that are perfect 1 Cor. 2.5 and let us therefore as many as be perfect be thus mined Phil. 3.15 Ye see the Apostle plainly owns it concerning some they were perfect and he speaks of men in this life P. T. The word perfect sometimes signifies no more then sincere and upright-hearted thus it is taken in diverse places of Scripture Gen. 6.9 Job 1.8 with severall others 2. It is sometimes taken for grown men who are called perfect as being attained higher then others though not yet come to the state of full perfection in this sence it is used Heb. 5.14 and 1 Cor. 14.20 we find mention of a three-fold estate viz. Children young men and Fathers 1 Iohn 2.13 which relates to a three-fold stature in Christ the one higher then the other there are persons of a lower and a higher form in Christ the young men higher then the Children and the Fathers higher then the young men and yet not come up to the highest for they are growing men still pressing forward to what is before And the same who are called Fathers in this Epistle of Iohn are by the Apostle Paul called perfect in the two texts formerly mentioned that is Fathers in Christ or men of higher attainments and of a greater growth both in knowledge and in grace then babes in Christ these are said to be perfect in comparison of others who are lower and inferiour to them yet were not these come up to the highest for the Apostle who was one of these perfect men acknowledges himself in the same Chap. not to have already attained or to be already perfect but he reached forth and pressed forward to what was before And yet farther we grant perfection in every Saint even in this life Every degree of true and spiritual light every manifestation of divine and heavenly glory in the Saints is perfection in its own nature but the highest hereof is no more then somewhat of perfection dwelling in imperfect creatures not such a degree of perfection which swallowes up all imperfection E. B. I will prove that the Saints may yea do live and not sin which is no more then