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A96069 VVater upon the flame: by XX. queries propounded in the spirit of love and meeknesse, to the serious consideration of all Gods people; principally to the fifth monarch men, commonly so called. / By one that loveth the truth, and all good men; and one that neither hath, nor ever had, nor never intendeth to have the least place of profit, or worldly advantage by any change of government whatsoever. 1659 (1659) Wing W1042; Thomason E989_12; ESTC R204047 13,299 16

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it is because there is no light in them 6. Gal. 16. As many as walk according to THIS RVLE peace be on them who ever sindeth peace in a way contrary to Gospel Rule may be sure t is not the Peace of God Phil 4.7 but the peace of Satan which he is wont to give poor creatures that he hath in fast possession Luke 11.21 19. John Becaldus Redivium Or the Enlish Quaker you may read at large Whether that Spirit that worketh mightily in you in these smighting resolutions be not the same that wrought in Munster and others that at last issued in all manner of ungodlinesse and confusion which I believe is farre from your hearts to design Do you complain of Princes Tyranny and Luxury to the People So did they Do you cry up the Kingdome of Christ on Earth and pretend for Righteousnesse So did they Do you cry up your selves for the little remnant the refined People that are appointed to smiting work So did they Do you revile the reputed Orthodox Ministery for Antichristian Carnall So did they Do you open the Pulpit to common men of all Trades So did they Do you go much by inward impulses So did they Do you use the Scripture Instances of Jonathan his Armour-Bearer Gideon against the Midianites David against Goliah to heighten the Peoples Spirits to fight So did Munsters in his Oration before the fight with the Princes use the same Do you abound with comfort peace confidence of successe so did they Munster to encourage the People to fight told them he was sure of Victory Now then consider in the fear of God whether this similitude doth not evince that they then and you now are acted much by oneand the self-same Spirit and if so Whether you have not cause to judge that you have gotten the wrong Spirit for your guide and your foot in a most dangerous snare notwithstanding all your confidence to the contrary since not only Gods Word but Gods fearful Judgements upon the Ringleaders of the German Rebellion did do with a loud voice declare his dislike of their actions there not being one Head-manamongst them according to the Story but proved forsaken of the good and holy Spirit and struck with Blindnesse of Mind and Hardnesse of Heart And whether you have not just cause to fear the like fearfull judgements of God to befall you if you should persist in obedience to the motions of that evil Spirit that now prompteth you to leap out of your Places and Callings to meddle with Persons and Things you have nothing to do with Since God is the God of order and not of confusion And the Father that without respect of persons judgeth every mans work 1 Pet. 1.17 20. Whether your Contempt of the godly learned Ministry of the Nation be not evidently of the evil Spirit since all the great ends for which Christ ordained a Gospel Ministry is not onely endeavoured but actually effected by many of them and consequently the Marks and Characters of the Ministers of Christ are upon them since it is impossible such work should be done but by the concurrence of Gods holy Spirit with them For though Paul plant and Apollo water T is God must give the increase If you could shew half so much for your Governing the World as they can for their Ministry you might the better expect Subjection by the Inhabitants of the Earth There are Four things chiefly to which the work of the Ministers of Christ by divine appointment may be reduced First Conviction of Sin Righteousnss Joh. 16.8.18 Act. 28. Secondly Conversion 26. Acts 18. Thirdly Edification 4. Ephes 12. Fourthly Protection 20. Acts 28 29. None of which can be denied to be wrought by many of them The truth of which is manifest 1. By the multitude of bils of spiritual complaints requests and thanks givings made evident daily by such as wait on the Publick ministry 2. Particular addresses of persons to their houses to be resolved in cases of conscience upon their Ministry 3. The constant early chearfull attendance of multitudes of Christians upon their Ministry daily to receive their Fathers bread by their hand 4. The holy Conversation of many that are fed by them 5. The freedome of such from the grand Heresies of the Time wherewith divers others are infected Hereticks having little to do with any but such as have first fallen in their affection to them and at last turned their backs upon them 6. The tears sad hearts of many godly souls at the death of them as lately at the death of Mr. Jacombe Now then if they do all the work of the Miuisters of Christ and all the ends for which Christ ordained the Ministry be accomplished by them which could not be done without God why then God owneth them Christ owneth them and the Spirit of God owneth them Whence then can it be but from the evil Spirit that you disown them and pour contempt upon them Now the Lord give you to consider this and in the spirit of love meekness I speak to you remembring what poor weak creatures we are all and that I my self have been in the like kind tempted to some degree overcome for which I abhor my self in dust and ashes I further intreat you to consider if God peradventure will give you repentance to the acknowledging of the truth that as in the contempt of the godly learned Ministry you fall OVT of the company of God OVT of the company of Christ OVT of the company of the Spirit as hath been shewn OVT of the company of the blessed Martyrs and glorified Saints who greatly reverensed the godly Ministry of their time OVT of the company of almost all the people of God upon the face of the whole earth at the present time so on the other hand I intreat you consider whose company you fall INTO even all sorts of persons enmptty of the good and full of the evil spirit comrades of Satan who are like to be throne into the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone for ever these all as one man hate the godly Ministry and most violently set themselves against them yea 't is remarkable that the further men are from God the greater is their hatred of them and can you find in your heart to be found in such company 1. All sorts of prophane wretches in whose Souls the good spirits never lodged such as resist the holy Ghost and will not that Christ should raign over them these all hate a puritan Minister because he cannot Prophesie to them of Wine or strong drink or any thing that will please them Secondly all Apostates from the faith of Gods elect out of whose souls the good spirit is departed as the Ranters and Quakers that have let go the head there are no persons so venemously set against them as these as appeareth by their Pamphlets and WHY but because those greevous Wolves cannot devour the Lambs of Christ so freely as they would while the poor people have the wings of godly and learned men to shelter them Thirdly the Pope with his Colledge of Jesuites these strive all they can to hinder the success of their Ministry and indeed to ruin both them and their standing insinuateing to the people that they are no Ministers only lay-men Their standing in the Ministry naught because they have not their Ordination from Rome while you on the other hand say their standing is naught because they have their Ordination from Rome But besides all this HE by all base means reproacheth them as carnal vitions and if he can light of them he burneth them and why doth be all this Is it because their Ministerial standing is Antichristian think ye as you suggest or the quite contrary the Pope and you are of two minds in this were the Ministers of England bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh as you are apt to think he would norish and cherish them not bu●n ruin and destroy them no man ever hated his own flesh but nourished and cherished it the truth is his hatred to them is founded upon his knowledg of the quite contrary Namely that if he cannot procure them to fall off their standing wherein you work hard to help him though not intentionally he is never like to get up his in England he knoweth well enough that as they ever have been so still are under God the Walls and Bullworks of the Protestant Religion and that besides them he hath no considerable adversary hear there not being many besides able to read one line nay not one word of the Bible but by their help now then if they have God Christ Spirit with them and the generality of the godly over the face of the whole earth with them and against them all sorts of ungodly wretches as in a conspiracy methinks it should rationally put you to a stand and make you tremble when you or any other go about to speak evil of such dignities Again is it Satan in them that 's certain because they have no other guide and because he seeketh the destruction of Souls and can it be God in you to destroy the Saviours of Souls You cannot swear with them norly with them nor be drunk with them nor commit uncleaness with them nor blaspheme God nor commit Idolatry with them how cometh it that you can revile the Godly learned Ministry with them For the Lords sake the Gospel sake the poor divided Church people of Gods sake and for your own eternal Savlation sake consider what you do in this great matter lest you be found fighters against God whilst you think to fight for him and fighters for the Pope whilst you think to fight against him Blessed are the Pace-makers for they shall be called the Children of God Matt. 5.9 FINIS
VVATER UPON THE FLAME BY XX. QUERIES Propounded in the Spirit of LOVE and MEEKNESSE To the Serious Consideration of all GODS PEOPLE Principally to the FIFTH MONARCH MEN commonly so called By One that loveth the Truth and all Good Men And One that neither hath nor ever had nor never intendeth to have the least Place of Profit or Worldly Advantage by any Change of Government whatsoever LONDON Printed in the Year 1659. Water upon the Flame OR QUERIES Propounded in the Spirit of Love and Meeknesse to the serious Consideration of all Gods People principally to the FIFTH MONARCHMEN commonly so called 1. WHether you are not subject to the like Infirmities with other men and consequently subject to Errours and Mistakes as other men 'T is certain they that know most know but in part 1 Cor. 13.9 And whether the experience you have had of your pronnesse to erre and be confident without cause in some things as well as others do not rationally call for these two things First To hold your present differing thoughts humbly remembring 1 Cor. 8.2 He that thinketh he knoweth any thing knoweth nothing as he ought to know Secondly To be alwaies ready to look on other mens things as well as your own remembring 2. Phil. 4. Look not every man on his own things but every man also on the things of others And 3. Prov. 6. Lean not to thine own understanding And 12. Rom. 3. Let every man think soberly of himself Remembring 12. Rom. 16. Be not wise in your own conceit Remembring 1. Pet. 5.5 Yea all of you be subject one to another and be clothed with humility and 1 Cor. 14.32 The Spirits of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets Wherefore You that are but few in comparison of all the Godly to adapt a particular Opinion differing from the generality of al Christians that either do now or ever did live in the world and to hold it with a high and imposing Spirit can possibly consist with obedience to those Scripture Exhortations or a due sence of the present darkness blindness and ignorance that poor mortalls groan under 2. Whether the saying of Tertullian be not rational and worthy your consideration A few dark and obscure places of Scripture ought to receive exposition agreeable to the current of Scriptures Now whether the Scriptures of the Prophet Daniel and the Revelations whereupon you ground your differing Opinion and high Purposes be not dark Scriptures in comparison of other Scriptures of the New Testament I leave to your consideration 3. Whether any interpretation of Daniels Prophesie or any other which contradicteth the plain express Doctrine and Practice of Christ and his Apostles ought to be admitted for Truth or the Ground of any Practice ●ohn 3.31 ●ohn 5.37 Acts 3.23 Acts 1.2 much less the Ground of War and Blood The Querest conceiveth No. For that First Christ came from above and is above all the annointed Prophet of the whole world whom the Father himself hath born Witness to by an audible Voyce and Summoned the whole world to hear him upon pain of death and because the Apostles of Christ received special Orders from Christ for the good Government of the New Testament Churches until he come again and those in very plain and easie tearms And Thirdly because to accept of any interpretation of their Doctrine which contradicteth his own Doctrine and personal Practice would set Christ against himself the ill consequence whereof is not perhaps presently or easily apprehended 'T is certain the Prophets spake by the same Spirit 1 Pet. 1.11 therefore nothing contradictory to him 4. Whether that Exposition of the Prophets and Revelation of Saint John whereon you ground the lawfulness of private persons running into arms and all your smiting resolutions be not directly contrary to Christs and the Apostles Doctrine and Practice let the Scriptures Judge Matt. 5.38 39 40 43 44. You have heard it hath been said an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth but I say to you resist not evil but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek turn the other to him you have heard that it hath been said thou shalt love thy neighbour and hate thine enemy but I say unto you love your enemies bless them that curse you do good to them that hate you and pray for them that despitfully use you and persecute you and by this doctrine he taught nothing but what he lived to He was oppressed and he was afflicted saith the Prophet Isa 53.7 9. yet he opened not his mouth he is brought as a Lamb to the Slaughter and as a sheep before the Shearers is dumb so he openeth not his mouth 50 Isa 6. I gave my back to the smiters my checks to them that pluckt off the hair I hid not my face from shame and spitting When Peter conceived with smiting thoughts John 19.11 Christ saith to him Peter put up thy Sword When Tribute was demanded of him by a Heathen King though he could have pleaded excuse chose rather to work a Miracle to pay it and mark Lest I should offend Matt. 17. from 24. to 27. When Peter John would have revenged the unkindness of the Samaritans to Christ by calling for fire from Heaven to destroy them He rebuked them saying you know not what Spirit you are of Luke 9.55 For the Son of man came not to destroy mens lives but to save them Thus we see how far Christs Spirit Doctrine and Practice differeth from yours Now let us harken to Saint Paul Rom. 12.18 If it be possible and as much as in you lyeth live peaceably with all men Bless them that persecute you bless and curse not Let us follow after things that make for peace Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers to obey Magistrates TO SPEAK EVIL OF NO MAN Rom. 14.19 3 Tit. 1 2 TO BE NO BRAWLERS but gentle SHEWING ALL MEEKNES TO ALL MEN. Yea more then all this he exhorteth that Prayers Intercessions and giving of Thanks he made not only for Kings but for ALL that are in authority yea for such that they might have cause to fear would hinder them in godly living and disturbe their Christian peace Why else must that be the subject of their Prayer that they may live peaceably and quietly under them and doth he not say that thus to do is both good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour 5. Whether the Lord Jesus Christ did not intend to become an Example to all private Christians both in Spirit and Practice in all things of a Morral nature Such as Gentleness Meekness Love Humility and the like though not in such things which he did as God King Priest and Prophet of the Church that he did intend his own Spirit and Practice in such things to be Exemplary is plain by Luke 9.55 he correcteth the intemperate Spirit of his Disciples by shewing them his own You know not what