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A44110 An answer to a small treatise call'd Just measurs in an epistle of peace and love : by way of address, to such as esteem themselves elders amongst the people call'd Quakers ... Hogg, John, fl. 1675-1698. 1693 (1693) Wing H2367; ESTC R3382 64,276 94

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Acts above could be done rightly without Faith what hindred the Pharises acceptance For who did them better then they in the outward appearance But as our Righteousness is to exceed theirs so if those outward acts be done better by us then them they must be done in the Faith in the sense of Gods Presence and Power that workes both the will and deed that 's done to his Praise and this all Formalists as well as the Pharises wanted to do them in and they must needs want that Faith that gives acceptance with God who conclude those things are not acts of Religion and Conscience But to distinguish things into Civil and Religious for this purpose that we might perform what you are pleased to call Civil without taking notice of Conscience which being directly to please and humour you in your Opinions and Judgements what is clearer then that the Form you are setting up and striving for to the loss of Charity and good will is really to be and is a Form without Power Seeing according to your distinction it may very easily be performed without Faith and Conscience On this account pray consider if you may not as justly be withstood or turned from as those the Apostle speaks of We intreat you to be serious in this matter while Balm in Gilead may be had to heal our wounds and bruises that is to cure our Divisions and remove our Dissatisfaction But further You say did those things of difference require Faith or did they appertain to Worship as if you were obliged to Worship God only in some Place Time Gesture Raiment with such Words or Forms of speech c. your Plea and Objection was good page 4 Answer True Worship cannot be imposed for 't is a serving God according to his mind in which Mans prescriptions have no place because such the Father only seeks out to serve him and it appears that Gospel Worship ought to be constant for such as are Joyned unto the Lord are one Spirit and they that deny a constant Serving and Worshiping of God it is because they do not know this Union of being Joyned unto the Lord in one Spirit how ever the worship you mean and intend is constant or it is not for we would by no means mistake you if not constant it relates to our Publick Assemblies only and so to Preaching and Praying and such other Publick acts as is done and performed at those certain times and Places and because those things that is the present occasion of difference in a strict sense do not relate to those Publick acts for Worship in our Assemblies therefore in your sense there can be no Imposition upon Conscience by Imposing those things but then pray observe what follows and that is that there is no serving of God but in our Publick Assemblies nor if you please use of Conscience but when so met together On this account Pray why do you refuse to put off your Hats to use the word you to a single Person to pay Tithes and several sorts of Taxes for according to this Notion of Worship and Service those things are Civil and not Religious we do not mention those things as indifferent but to shew how by indeavouring to avoid one error you run into another But if we are to Worship and Serve God constantly as we say we are we ought to wait to know and be sensible of him every where and upon all occasions but we say this cannot be done without Faith for without Faith we cannot be sensible of his Presence as the Governour of our actions nor can our deeds be done or wrought in him without it well then if we are thus to serve God and this cannot be done without Faith then we say if the thing you contend for was really good we must if we serve God first know them to be good thus on this foot in your own sense our Plea and Objection is good because the Thing in Difference relates to the Service of God You explede in other Societies the impossing Time Gesture and Raiment in the Worship of God but pray consider if you are not doing something of the same Nature for you must grant that the Worship and Service of God ought to be constant or it ought not if it ought not to be constant you ty it to some certain times and Places and herein agree with those you reprehend but if you allow it constant the impossition of new things under this Notion of Civil is out of doors But further this Form that you 'r Imposing with all the reason and force you have is that to a Society that a Garment is to particular Persons it is true and as truly granted without any reserve that what is simple is needful in both cases for we can not be well without a Garment whilest cloathed with those Houses of Clay neither as we are particular Persons nor as a Religious Society but superfluity is dangerous on both hands for if ever the mind get out to think and conclude that it deserves honour and respect for the Garment for the Form's sake in comes those additions of superfluity from hence on a Religious score comes in Opinion and Ceremony and this to make it more Glorious and Beautiful that it may have more respect and acceptance both with God and Man and thus both on a Religious score as well as on a Civil Men grow proud of that which shews their Poverty and rich in conceit by trusting in that which at the same time demonstrates their want did they understand or rightly consider of things for as clothing to our bodies shews our want and not our perfection even so do Forms in Religion shew our fall and want and therefore the more we seem to need and are burthened with Ceremony the more our want and misery appears if we could but see it For this cause where this is truly seen and considered such content themselves with what is simply needful knowing by how much as they stand in need of little by so much they come nearer their first being and then such in stead of adding of Opinion and Ceremony to perfect them do wait to have such things fulfill'd as much as may be for Righteousness sake on this account we way safely say the less Ceremony the more truth and the less noise about the Formallity of Form the more hopes such wait for the knowledge of God in Christ which is life Eternal but to apply the matter the difference you make with us is not about what is simply needful to Society for you grant we are one in judgment with you in the Worship and Doctrines of truth and owns both the end and means of good Order Page 11 then pray consider If it be not hard for you to differ with Us about that which neither relates to the Worship nor Doctrines of Truth In short generally speaking you have allowed us formerly as true Worshipers of God without this
to outward Society is a comprehensive Church and cannot shut out for Opinion which deserves your most serious consideration in relation to your Brethren at least But to apply what has been said to our case as it is sure that every Man that comes truly to be reconciled unto God must know the dispensation changed in his Age so 't is as certain that what is to be done in one Man ought to be done in all Men and must be done in all that comes truly to know the new and heavenly Man put on but seeing this cannot be done in all at one time as we are a Society it must at least be done in our Elders or Leaders or 't is not possible that we should be as a Society a true Figure of the Universal Church of God For as are the Elders or Leaders so is the People in a great measure that depend on them and therefore if our Leaders have narrow Spirits and wrong Notions of things the People must be so too whereupon in followes if our Leaders deny a change of Dispensation and cease to travel the People must needs do so too and therefore whilest our Elders and Leaders know not a Change of Dispensation in this Age which is a coming through the mistery of Christs Death and a dying with Christ to the flesh by which the beauty of External things passeth away in the true Ministration of Life as such cannot be dead with Christ to the Rudiments of the World they will be burthened with their Opinions and Ordinances and therein burthen others We intreat you to Consider of this for it was and is on this very foot that the greatest part of all Religious Societies have fail'd wherein their Leaders and Elders were allwayes most in fault For they could allow of no variation or change of Dispensation but what they made themselves and is not this matter of fact and therefore allwayes missed of the mind of God both as he appear'd by his Son and by his Servants it has been thus through all the Reformation and was thus in that great example of Israel for thô they received the Law to prepare as a Schoolmaster to bring unto Christ and did pretend to look for him yet could not allow of the change of Dispensation that he brought so sticking in their own Opinions and Judgements of things in stead of receiving him that should have perfected the work they had known begun they rejected him for they said had any of the Rulers that is Elders and Leaders believed But the People that knew not the Law were accursed And those were such as seem'd to have a great esteem for the Law the first part of the work yet taught for Doctrines the Commandments of men by which the People were also misled that depended on them and whilest you deny a change of Dispensation in this Age 't is clear you stick in your own Opinions and Judgments and are as truly in danger to miss the mind of God and mislead others as any that have been before you But observe for you know or at least may that whilest our Lord was in the flesh he was tyed unto the Jews or however did appear so and here he seem'd straitned or limited with respect to the rest of Mankind but when he had fulfilled the work given him to do as he dyed to the flesh of the Jew he became universal giving Gentiles as well as Jews an enterance unto the Father by one Spirit and of twain made one New Man and cast off the seed of Abraham after the flesh and chused his seed after the Spirit from hence he took off all confidence in the flesh for if the Jews had not herein to trust surely no Society now can have wherein to trust on that account But the Apostle tells us if the casting off the Jews was the riches of the World what should be their receiving but as life from the dead And which way could this great benefit come unto Mankind in their receiving 〈…〉 more then in this that as then they should have known true reconciliation unto God they would have been acquainted with the various States that are to be passed through before that can be known and then as they would have been truly fitted to have informed Mankind of the different effects of each so their credit with all that had received Christ would have given them that advantage to have been believed then should we have been truly informed that generally speaking the work of God in restoring Man unto himself was really twofold and that the first part tho a glorious work yet it was but to prepare and not to perfect and as it was but to prepare there was a necessity to wait to know the Dispensation changed For had the Jews as a Society received the Messiah they would then have known him to inlarge them in the Spirit by taking away the confidence in the flesh then with one voice they would have informed us that whilest they continued in the first part of the work thô it was glorious yet their Spirits was narrow and shut up to the rest of Mankind and their thoughts was childish and partial toward God for they did conclude that because God had done so much for them he had either forgotten or rejected all others but receiving the Messiah as they would have known the Dispensation changed so they would have been inlarged in Spirit then would they have informed us that God was God of the Gentile as well as of the Jew and that as he was Lord over all so he was rich unto all that in truth called upon his Name this would have mortified and slain all our strife about Forms carnal Ordinances Opinion and Ceremony but alas in stead of coming as a Body or Society from the Form to the Power coming out of or through the first Covenant Works and from under a Legal Dispensation wherein the confidence in the flesh stood as well as the warrs and strife into the Second Covenant in to the ministration of Life where the good will and Peace is that so they might have been a perfect Figure of the work of God with Man and therein been the great example to the World as well of Gods Love and good will as of that Righteousness and Justice which he required they stuck in the first part of the work and so that Elect and Pretious Stone that laid in Sion became to them a stumbling Stone and Rock of Offence for tho they seemed to own and magnifie Moses and the Prophets dispensation which God owned and appointed yet not owning the Change of Dispensation in the Messiah they became as a Sect too narrow in their Minds and Spirits to make known the good unto Mankind intended in their chusing for the casting them off singly was not the riches of the World but because they stuck in the flesh and could not follow the Lord fully as their Father Abram did to manifest
the good they must be casten off or else it could not have been known thus it is clear they was rejected and casten off because they denyed the Change of Dispensation which should have inlarged them in Spirit to have been the blessing of Nations Pray consider if something of this hath not attended all the Reformations according to their respective Interest they could never as a body receive those further appearances of God testifyed unto by such as the Lord sent and and made use of and therefore stuck in a fleshly knowledg of what they first knew or received like the Jews which tho good in it self so far as it reacht but not considering that as God has done great things for them he could still do greater they durst never trust him in the delivering up of the Tallent therefore in stead of becoming more Spiritual they stuck in the flesh so that we may see in some sort what is of Man comes to be manifested in a Society which is one body on a religious score and that is flesh and Spirit which can never be reconciled and therefore the one must prevail and accordingly as they prevail that body may be denominated but in particular Persons we have seen the flesh overcom'd and that universallity of Spirit brought forth testified too in the birth of Christ yet truly there wants the Example in a body or Society of Men so needful so necessary for the honour of God and the Peace of Mankind and from hence have come those seperations and Divisions that have been and must continue till Shilo come And now you are upon the Stage and more may be expected from you then others by how much you conclude God to have done more for you then others and as you pretend more unto the Spirit then others If then you do resemble Spiritual Israel more then others you must wait to place your Unity not upon the Professor of the Truth for he may be but as the fleshly child of Abraham but upon the Possessor and upon all travelling for Sion tho so ignorant of the way that they weep because they know it no better For 't is those and not the former that follow the Lord where ever he leads and those he will own for ever whether they be known unto the World or worldly Professors or not he knowes them and is gathering them together in one by destroying the enmity as it stands in carnal Ordinances and doth declare now as he did by his Apostle that of every Nation those that fear God and work righteousness are accepted of him and what is accepted of God ought to be accepted of Man and therefore if you conceive you are Leaders not of Israel in the flesh but of Israel in the Spirit you must know your Spirits inlarged that you may own what God owns for as our Principal is universal our good will ought to be as large to the Children of Men for consider an Vniversal principle and a narrow limited Spirit are inconsistant But this can never be without a change of the Dispensation come you know Israel after the flesh was to allow the Gentile to worship God in the outward Court Pray mind then if their outward Court was not larger then ours 'T is true they had an inward Court that such could not come to till Circumcised was there then an outward Court and an inward and have not we what answers to them now What is sit for the Society of good Men may not that very well be allowed to come into our Society or outward Court For they who do not come thus farr cannot come into the inward Court yet seeing they must come to the outward before the inward shall not we allow them here Testifying at the same time to the Inward Court which none can come to but by the true Circumcision in Spirit Thus it is clear if our Outward Court were but a little more large our Inward Court would certainly be the more prized vallued and sought after Again you know the Leader in Israel in their Travel from Egypt to Canaan was to Travel according to the least of Israel and did allwayes own such as were Circumcised tho at eight dayes old to be of the Church of God in the Figure and pray will not this hold as true to Spiritual Israel What is Circumcision in the flesh now but a holy Conversation performed in the fear of God For as this is so far accepted of God it really fits for the Society of good men and therefore its impossible it should be rejected of that People or Society or Church that is a true Figure of the Church of God now least you should run this into an extream we will at present bound it with respect to your Brethen who have come out and suffered with you for the Testimony of a good Conscience and do yet in your own sense agree with you in the worship and Doctrines of truth and yet for all this are shut out and excluded by you for not complying with you in your Opinions yea meer Opinions for that they are such is put out of doubt when you tell us those things of Difference do not relate to Faith Conscience or Religion We beseech you to be serious for this evidently makes manifest the narrowness of your Spirits and that narrowness of Spirit demonstrates a necessity for you to know a change of the Dispensation For 't is impossible whiles you thus remain that you should be that Figure of the true Church to which the gathering can be by bringing forth that peace on Earth that good will to Men and glory to God on high where only the Swords are beaten into Plowshares and Spears into Pruning Hookes 't is this and the glory of this to which the gathering of the People must be we saw something of this in our coming forth as our testimony against all force wrath and sighting with carnal weapons do testifie But alas Not truly travelling in Spirit to know the work compleated we have not yet come to know the substance of what was seen in the Vision without which the other will prove but as a dead and Formal business Nor can you know this without a change of the dispensation and therefore whiles you conclude against it in your mind it is clear to us you stick in the works of a first Covenant and abide but under a Legal Dispensation and tho you appear to be against the Enemy as as an evil doer that is no more then others have done before you but not knowing the Dispensation changed tho the Enemy does not attach you with what is evil and Immoral yet he deceives you as a Serpent as is apparent in this noise you make about your Opinions and further clear in this Narrowness of Spirit that appears amongst you as is amongst the various professors of Religion that except you wait to know the Dispensation changed the Serpent will beguile you as he