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spirit_n	father_n	son_n	unity_n	6,121	5	9.7413	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A15082	A replie to Iesuit Fishers answere to certain questions propou[n]ded by his most gratious Matie: King Iames By Francis White D: of Div· deane of Carlile, chaplaine to his Matie. Hereunto is annexed, a conference of the right: R:B: of St Dauids wth the same Iesuit*	White, Francis, 1564?-1638.; Laud, William, 1573-1645.; Baylie, Richard, b. 1585 or 6, attributed name.; Cockson, Thomas, engraver.; Fisher, John, 1569-1641.	1624 (1624)	STC 25382; ESTC S122241	841,497	706

enough not spared to say That what the B. would not acknowledge in this cause you would wring and extort from him then indeed you said as before that it had erred And this no man denyed But euerie Error denyes not Christ the Foundation or makes Christ denie it or thrust it from the Foundation F. The B. said That the Error was not in Point fundamentall B. The B. was not so peremptorie His speech was That diuers learned men and some of your owne were of opinion That as the Greekes expressed themselues it was a Question not simply Fundamentall The B. knowes and acknowledges that Error of denying the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne to be a grieuous Error in Diuinitie And sure it would haue grated the Foundation if they had so denyed the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Sonne as that they had made an inequalitie betweene the Persons But since their forme of speech is That the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father by the Sonne and is the Spirit of the Sonne without making any difference in the consubstantialitie of the Persons the B. dares not denie them to be a true Church for this though he confesses them an erroneous Church in this particular Now that diuers learned men were of opinion That à Filio per Filium in the sense of the Greeke Church was but a Question in modo loquendi in manner of speech and therefore not fundamentall is euident The Master and his Schollers agree vpon it The Greekes saith hee confesse the holy Ghost to be the Spirit of the Sonne with the Apostle Galat. 4. and the Spirit of Truth S. Ioh. 16. And since Non est aliud It is not another thing to say The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Father and the Sonne then that he is or proceeds from the Father and the Sonne in this they seeme to agree with vs in eandem Fidei Sententiam vpon the same Sentence of Faith though they differ in words Now in this cause where the words differ but the sentence of Faith is the same 〈◊〉 eadem euen altogether the same Can the Point be fundamentall You may make them no Church as Bellarmine doth and so denie them saluation which cannot be had out of the true Church but the B. dares not It ought to be no easie thing to condemne a man of Heresie in foundation of Faith much lesse a Church least of all so ample and large a Church as the Greeke especially so as to make them no Church Heauen Gates were not so easily shut against multitudes when S. Peter wore the Keyes at his owne Girdle And it is good counsaile which Alphonsus à Castro one of your owne giues Let them consider that pronounce easily of Heresie how easie it is for themselues to erre Or if you will pronounce consider what it is that seperates from the Church simply and not in part onely I must needs professe that I wish heartily as well as others that those distressed men whose Crosse is heauie alreadie had beene more plainely and moderately dealt withall though they thinke a diuerse thing from vs than they haue beene by the Church of Rome But hereupon you say you were forced F. Whereupon I was forced to repeat what I had formerly brought against Dr. White concerning Points Fundamentall B. Hereupon it is true that you read a large discourse out of a Booke printed which you said was yours The particulars all of them at the least the B. tells me he doth not now remember and is sure he did not then approoue But if they be such as were formerly brought against 〈◊〉 White they are by him formerly answered The first thing you did was the righting of S. Augustine Which Sentence the B. doth not at all remember was so much as named in the third Conference much lesse was it stood vpon and then righted by you Another place of S. Augustine indeed was which you omit but the place of it comes after about Tradition to which I remit it But you tell vs of a great proofe made out of this place These words containe two Propositions One That all Points defined by the Church are Fundamentall The other That this is prooued out of this place of S. Augustine 1. For the first That all Points defined by the Church are Fundamentall It was not the least meanes by which Rome grew to her Greatnesse to blast euerie Opposer shee had with the name of Heretike or Schismatike for this serued to shriuell the credit of the persons and the persons once brought into contempt and ignominie all the good they desired in the Church fell to dust for want of creditable persons to backe and support it To make this proceeding good in these later yeeres this course it seemes was taken The Schoole that must maintaine and so they doe That all Points defined by the Church are thereby Fundamentall necessarie to be beleeued of the substance of the Faith and that though it be determined quite Extra Scripturam And then leaue the wise and actiue heads to take order that there be strength enough readie to determine what is fittest for them But since these men distinguish not nor you betweene the Church in generall and a Generall Councell which is but her Representation for determinations of the Faith the B. though he be very slow in sifting or opposing what is concluded by lawfull generall and consenting Authoritie though hee giue as much as can be giuen to the definitions of Councels truly generall nay suppose hee should graunt which hee doth not That Generall Councels cannot erre yet this cannot downe with him That all Points euen so defined are Fundamentall For Deductions are not prime and Natiue Principles nor are Superstructures Foundations That which is a Foundation for all cannot be one and another in different Christians for then it could be no constant Rule for any nor could the soules of men rest vpon a shaking Foundation No If it be a true Foundation it must be common to all and firme vnder all in which sense the Articles of Christian Faith are Fundamentall And Irenaeus layes this for a ground That the whole Church howsoeuer dispersed in place speakes this with one mouth Hee which among the Guides of the Church is best able to speake vtters no more than this and lesse than this the most simple doth not vtter Therefore the Creed of which hee speakes is a common is a constant Foundation and an Explicite Faith must be of this in them which haue the vse of Reason for both Guides and simple people all the Church vtter this Now many things are defined by the Church which are but Deductions out of this which suppose them deduced right mooue farre from the Foundation without which Deductions explicitely beleeued many millions of Christians goe to Heauen and cannot therefore be Fundamentall in the Faith True

S. August Enchirid. c. 5.6 c. Donatist Lib. 7. cap. 50. Wicked people may be called Gods House because of externall calling and visible profession 2. Tim. 2. 20. Sed non sunt de compage domus They are not of the frame of the House Heb. 3. 6. August d. Bapt. Lib. 7. cap. 50. All they which couet earthly things preferring worldly felicitie before God they which seeke their owne and not those things which are Iesus Christs ad vnam Ciuitatem illam pertinent quae dicitur Babylonia mystice habet Regem Diabolum belong onely to that Citie which in a mysterie is called Babylon and hath the Deuill the Head Aug. sup Psal. 61. Wicked persons saith S. Augustine Epist. 50. figuram membri tenent retaine the figure or outward shape of a member sed reuera corpus Domini non sunt but they are not in truth the bodie of Christ August d. Doct. Christ. Lib. 3. cap. 32. In corpore Christi non sunt quod est Ecclesia They are not in the bodie of Christ which is the Church August c. Crescon Lib. 2. cap. 21. But they which are not of the Body of Christ nor of the house of God really and in truth doe not constantly preserue or faithfully deliuer Apostolicall Traditions neither are they one or holy nor yet such as the Spirit of God infallibly and alwayes directeth in their publicke Doctrine OBSERVAT. V. The qualities of vnitie holinesse veritie Apostolicall succession and other the like are not alwayes found in the true Church equally or in the same degree and measure of perfection but according to a latitude and inequalitie of intension and remission and more or lesse so that although the sounder part of the Church hath alwayes the substance of truth sanctitie and vnitie yet this veritie of Doctrine vnitie of Charitie sanctitie of Manners is greater larger and more sincere and perfect in some persons and ages of the Church than in others These qualities were in their greatest perfection when the Apostles themselues liued they were in great measure in the ages immediately abutting vpon the Apostles But the holy Fathers complaine of the decrease and decay of them in after times And Papists deplore the extreme diminution of them in their dayes OBSERVAT. VI. It falleth out sometimes in the outward state of the visible Church that wicked persons which are not sound parts of Gods house nor liuing members of Christs mysticall bodie being more in number and greater in power doe possesse the chiefe places of publicke Iudicature and Ecclesiasticall gouernment and being thus exalted and withall abetted by worldly power and swarmes of time-feruers whom they aduance and honour to accomplish their owne ends it may heereby fall out that the outward state of the visible Church shall be ordered and swayed according to the lust and will of wicked rulers And then good men may be disgraced depressed and persecuted the simple and they which are negligent vnlearned and secure may be deluded and errour and superstition craftily and couertly be brought in and that is fulfilled which Gregory saith Dum mali praepositi suam contra veritatem honorem exigunt ab omni rectitudine corda sequentium abducunt When wicked rulers seeke their owne glory more than truth they misleade their followers from all course of righteousnesse This happened in the Iewish Church when the Scribes and Pharises and other hypocrites and errants were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 master-builders Math. 21.41 And the euill seruant beareth rule in the houshold and oppresseth his fellow-seruants Matth. 24. 49. Diotrophes excommunicates and vsurpes according to his owne will 3. Ep. Ioh. 9. 10. The Arrians in the dayes of Constantius and Valence did all the former in the greater part of the Christian world The same happened in the Church of Rome especially after the thousand yeere one man vsurped ouer the Christian world making himselfe on earth chiefe and sole commander ouer things diuine and humane his power was so exorbitant and boundlesse that he trode vpon the necke of kings throning and dethroning crowning and decrowning them as himselfe listed his dominion was so absolute and vast as that no man might reprooue or withstand him All men were reputed heretickes or schismatickes which would not say and sweare as he commanded in Synods and Councels causes were transacted according to his will and remission of sinnes and right to life eternall were intailed to his chaire IESVIT This principle is consequent vpon the former and out of it sixe things may be clearely prooued First that there is alwayes a true Church of Christ in the world for if there be no meanes for men to know that Scriptures and other substantiall Articles came from Christ and his Apostles and so consequently from God but the Tradition of the Church then there must needs be in all ages a Church receiuing and deliuering these Traditions else men in some ages since Christ should haue beene destitute of the ordinarie meanes of saluation because they had not meanes to know assuredly the substantiall Articles of Christianitie without assured faith whereof no man is saued ANSVVER By true Church we may vnderstand either an vniuersall maltitude of Beleeuers totally in respect of all persons or distributiuely in regard of them which principally rule and command free from errour in publicke doctrine Or else a choise and select number of Beleeuers liuing either in the common fellowship of the generall visible Church or vnited in particular Congregations by themselues teaching and professing right Faith in all capitall points and readie to imbrace all diuine Truth when the same is manifested vnto them If the name of true Church be taken in the first sense or for an Hierarchicall Church wherein the principall commanders teach and maintaine truth intirely and sincerely then the Proposition to wit There is alwayes a true Church of Christ in the world is denied for it is possible that the greater Prelates to wit Popes Cardinals mitred Bishops and Abbots of which the Hierarchicall Church principally consisteth shall bee reprobates blinde guides a generation of vipers wolues in sheepes cloathing and such as being armed with the title of the Church persecute the true Church And that this is possible it appeareth First by the example of the arch-rulers of the Iewish Church which in some ages corrupted true Religion and persecuted the seruants of God 2. Chron. 36. 14. Moreouer all the chiefe of the Priests and the people transgressed very much after all the abominations of the heathen and polluted the house of the Lord c. v. 16. They mocked the messengers of God and dospised his word and misused his Prophets c. Reade 2. Kings 16. 11 16. Ierem. 2.8 Esay 56.10 Malach. 2.8 Ierem. 20.1 23.1 2. Machab. 4.10 Ezek. 34.4 Mark 6.35 Math. 3.7 Matth. 23. 13. Luk. 12. 1. Matth.

quantitie of the worke 2. Cor. 9.6 Fourthly the reward is certaine and infallible yea more certaine than any temporall benefit which man presently inioies in the world Gen. 22.16 Fiftly there is in all good Works a dignitie not of desert or equiparance either in respect of God of whom we can deserue nothing or in respect of the reward but only of grace diuine similitude goodnesse and honour Phil. 4.8 Sixtly the reward of good workes is called a crowne of righteousnes 2. Tim. 4. 8. because it is bestowed on them which exercise righteousnes and in regard of their righteousnes but merit of condignitie and righteousnes are 〈◊〉 tstings as appeareth in Angels and Infants which haue righteousnes and are crowned with glorie and yet they doe not merit Seuenthly the antient Fathers maintained no merit of condignitie but by the word Mereri they vnderstood either to obtaine or to impetrate and this is manifest because they applie the word Merit not only to iust men but also to sinners saying that they merited Repentance remission of Sinnes the calling of Grace c. Eithtly the prime part of mans iustice is the remission of his sinnes and the righteousnes of Faith for without these there can be no true and liuing morall righteousnes and where these are found good Workes are neuer wanting IESVIT SIxtly Their errours against Baptisme the gate and entrance into Christian life whereof they deny the vertue to sanctifie men and the 〈◊〉 thereof for infants to whom they grant Saluation without Baptisme ANSWER ALthough some persons haue been Christians before their Baptisme as S. Augustine saith of Cornelius Euen as in Abraham the justice of Faith was precedent and the seale of Circumcision followed after so likewise in Cornelius spirituall Sanctification by the gift of the holy Ghost went before and the Sacrament of regeneration in the lauer of Baptisme succeeded yet notwithstanding the ordinarie gate and entrance into Christian life is Baptisme S. Ambrose siue Prosper d. vocat Gentium lib. 1. cap. 5 The beginning of true life and righteousnesse is laid in the Sacrament of Regeneration that looke where man is new borne there also the veritie of Vertues themselues may spring Neither do Protestants deny the vertue and efficacie of Baptisme to sanctifie men but according to the holy Scriptures Eph. 5.26 Tit. 3.5 Gal. 3.27.1 Pet. 3.21 Acts 22.16 Rom. 6.3 and the antient Church they teach and maintaine That this Sacrament is an instrument of Sanctification and remission of sinnes The Liturgie of the Church of England in the forme of administration of Baptisme hath these words Seeing now D. B. that these children be regenerate c. Wee yeeld thee heartie thankes most mercifull Father that it hath pleased thee to regenerate this infant with thy holy Spirit to receiue him for thine owne child by adoption c. And master Hooker saith Baptisme is a Sacrament which God hath instituted in his Church to the end that they which receiue the same might therby be incorporated into Christ and so through his most pretious merit obtaine as wel that sauing Grace of Imputation which taketh away all former guiltinesse and also that infused diuine vertue of the holy Ghost which giueth to the powers of the soule their first disposition towards future newnesse of life Zanchius hath these words When the Minister baptiseth I beleeue that Christ with his hand reached as it were from heauen besprinkleth the child baptised with water with his bloud to remission of sinnes And in another place The holy Ghost mooueth vpon the water of Baptisme and sanctifieth the same making it to be a lauer of Regeneration Caluin saith Per Baptismum Christus nos mortis suae fecit participes vt in eam inseramur By Baptisme Christ hath made vs partakers of his death that we may be ingraffed into it And in another place If any man demand How can infants which want vnderstanding be regenerate I answer Although we are not able to fadome or vnfold the manner of this Worke of God 〈◊〉 it followeth not from thence that the same is not done And the same author with others of his part maintaine the former Doctrine concerning the efficacie of the Sacrament of Baptisme and they differ only from Lutherans and Pontificians First In that they restraine the grace of Sanctification only to the elect Secondly In that they deny externall Baptisme to be alwaies effectuall at the very instant time when it is administred But our Aduersaries must be ouer rigid if they shall censure questions of this nature which are touching circumstance so hardly as to make euery such difference a fundamentall errour especially because some among themselues as the Master of the schole reporteth affirme the same Thirdly whereas the Obiector addeth that Protestants denie the necessitie of Baptisme for Infants granting them Saluation without Baptisme he must vnderstand that necessitie is either absolute or else of precept and supposition We verily maintaine the latter necessitie of Baptisme for the saluation of Infants against the Pelagians and Anabaptists and the contempt and wilfull neglect of this holy Sacrament is damnable to such as are guiltie of this contempt and our Church prouideth diligently that all Infants if it be possible may receiue Baptisme before they depart this life But if it fall out ineuitable that new borne babes descending of Christian parents cannot receiue this Sacrament not onely Protestants but the antient Church it selfe and discreeter Papists haue thought it more pious to hope of Gods indulgence towards such infants than to aggrauate his vengeance with such rigour and extremitie as the Trent Fathers and their disciples do First the antient Church allotted onely two seasons in the yeare for Baptisme which they could not in their charitie haue thus restrained to set times if they had beene persuaded as moderne Papals are Secondly Gerson Biel and Caietan with many other famous Pontificians affirme That Infants departing this life without Baptisme may be saued by the speciall Grace of God and by the prayers and faith of their parents And the words of Thomas Elysius a late Pontifician are very remarkeable saying Opinio quam tenent Theologi plurimi Ecclesia secundum communem legem est satis dura onerosa non conformis preceptis Christi quae sunt suauia leuia The opinion of many Diuines which is commonly holden by the Church concerning the damnation of Infants deceasing without Baptisme is ouer hard and rigid and in no sort conformeable to the precepts of Christ which are sweet and easie And the same Authour Non est haeretica cum non sit contra Fidem Catholicam sea ei conformis maxime secundum fidei pietatem This opinion which propugneth the saluation of Infants vnbaptised is not hereticall for it is conformeable and not

Christ to his heauenly Father are thereby made most highly venerable But the Crosse Nailes and Lance were those things which at the instant time of Christs Passion had a residence in Christs bodie and were ioined thereunto as instruments of his Passion and were offered by Christ to his heauenly Father Ergo The Crosse Nailes and Lance are thereby made most highly venerable Both Propositions are false in whole or in part First those things which at the instant time of Christs Passion had a residence in his bodie and were ioined thereunto per contactum phisicum as instruments of his Passion were not thereby made most highly venerable because there is no diuine authoritie or any other snfficient reason to prooue this assertion Secondly these things were seperate instruments and not perpetually conioined to his person and if none did worship them when they were actually conioined there is no reason to thinke that they are to be worshipped being diuided If apparrell when it is ioined to an honourable person may be coworshipped with the person yet when it is diuided from the person and hangeth in a wardrobe or is worne by a Page it is otherwise Whiles God appeared to Moses in the bramble bush the ground whereon Moses stood is called holy Exod. 3.6 But this holinesse being only relatiue transitorie and denominatiue and not inherent or durable the former vision and apparition being finished the ground whereon Moses stood returned to his old condition The like may be said of the water of Iordan considered when Christ was baptised with it and againe considered when his baptisme was finished and out of the vse An Embassador during his embassage is a publicke and honourable person when his office ceaseth the honour consectarie and dependant vpon his office ceaseth also Secondly the latter branch of the assumption to wit the Crosse Nailes and Lance were offered by Christ to his heauenly Father at his Passion is impiously false for nothing was offered by Christ to his heauenly Father at his Passion but himselfe and part of himselfe Heb. 7.27 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he offered vp himselfe Heb. 9. 14. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 through the eternall Spirit he offered himselfe without spot to God c. Heb. 10. 10. Wee are sanctified through the offering of the body of lesus Christ once for all 1. Pet. 2.24 Col. 1.22 Heb. 9.12 By his owne bloud he entred once into the holy place c. 1. Pet. 1. 19. And if the Crosse Nailes and Lance were offered by Christ to his Father then we were redeemed with corruptible things contrarie to the Apostles doctrine 1. Pet. 1. 18 and Wood Nailes and Yron were a part of the propitiatorie Sacrifice for the sinnes of the whole world which is a Iesuiticall or rather an Antijesuine doctrine that is a doctrine ascribing to dead creatures Yron Wood Steele Nailes c. that which is most proper to the pretious blood of Iesus This doctrine maintained by Loiolists is most sacrilegious and more to be abhorred than Iudas his lips But it is fulfilled in these men which Clement Alexandrinus saith of heathen Idolaters 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are they not prodigious monsters which adore stockes and stones IESVIT Out of which J may conclude that Christ Iesus being a true man his Image hath a most euident and vndeniable right to represent him and so to be honoured for his sake ANSVVER Conclusions borrow their strength from their premises but the former premises haue no power to inforce this conclusion For although Christ is a true man yet his painted Image wanteth euident and vndeniable right to represent him because such right presupposeth diuine institution The same represents him and stands for him only by humane imagination which is all the Aduersarie is able to prooue but religious worship must haue a more sound and certaine foundation otherwise we must say to Papals when they are thus prodigall in giuing Christs honour to Idols 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ioh. 4. 22. ye worship ye know not what If in ciuile worship one should frame an Image or chaire of State in honour of a king and commaund people to kneele and bow to it none will be so foolish as to obey vnlesse such commandement be deriued from the kings authoritie or law But in things religious and heauenly men haue not the same libertie of deuising and commanding as appeareth by Gedeons Ephod Iudg. 8.27 Lastly if it should be granted that artificiall Images did represent figure or teach Christ Iesu by diuine institution as fully as the Bookes of holy Scripture or as the inward conceits and images of the mind yet it were inconsequent to inferre that the same were therefore to be worshipped in such manner as Papals require They were indeed to be vsed with reuerence but reuerent vsing and adoration are diuers actions IESVIT §. 2. THis Worship was euer since the Apostles in the Church without beginning ANSVVER IF it had no beginning how can this man prooue that the Apostles were the Authors IESVIT The disagreeing of Protestants about the time when Worship of Jmages began is a sufficient Argument That there is no beginning thereof assigneable ANSVVER The Iesuits Proposition is Worship of Images hath beene practised in the true Church euer since the Apostles c. His first Argument to confirme this is If Protestants disagree in assigning the time when the worship of Images first began in the Church Then the worship of Images was practised vniuersally and perpetually from the Apostles dayes But Protestants disagree in assigning the time when the Worship of Images first began in the Church Ergo The worship of Images was practised vniuersally and perpetually from the Apostles dayes and consequently the same worship is to be receiued and practised in these dayes First The consequence of the Maior Proposition is denied For is it not ridiculous to argue in this manner Learned Papists disagree in assigning the time when Heathenish Idolatrie first began Therefore Heathenish Idolatrie had his beginning in Paradise But learned Papists Bellarmine Pererius Barradias c. disagree in assigning and pointing foorth the moment of time when Heathenish Idolatrie fist began The time when people first began to offer their sonnes and daughters to diuells is not assigneable And who can certainely report when barbarous people first began to eate mans flesh or when the Assyrian matrons began first to prostitute themselues at the temple of Venus Is it therefore consequent that these customes had their beginning from Noahs dayes because their originall is not assigneable Our aduersaries Achilles therefore Protestants are not able out of approoued Historians to assigne the persons and time who and when began the worship of images in the Church Ergo the said custome is originally from the Apostles rather deserueth contempt and derision than an accurate solution 2. The assumption of the former argument is also denyed For Protestants disagree not in

admit the case to be like B. So indeed you said And not you alone It is the common Obiection made against all that admit not euerie later Councell as that Councell of Nice famous through all the Christian World In the meane time nor you nor they consider that the case is not alike as the B. told you If the case be alike in all Why doe not you admit that which was held at Ariminum and the second of Ephesus as well as Nice If you say as yours doe It was because the Pope approoued them not I will put off the inualiditie of this Answere to a sitter time in the meane space suppose it true and strong this ground is gained That the case is not alike for consent to all Councels And if you looke to haue this graunted That the Pope must confirme or the Councell's not lawfull we haue farre more reason to looke that this be not denyed That the Scripture must not be departed from in Letter or necessarie Sense or the Councell's not lawfull And the consent and confirmation of Scripture is of farre greater Authoritie to make the Councell Authenticall and the decisions of it de Fide than any confirmation of the Popes The Councell of Nice had the first you say We are sure it had the second The Councell of Trent we are able to prooue had not the second and so wee haue no reason to respect the first And to what end doe your learned men maintaine That a Councell may make a Conclusion de Fide though it be simply Extrà out of all bound of Scripture but out of a iealousie at least that this of Trent and some others haue in their determinations left both Letter and Sense of Scripture Shew this of Nice and the B. will graunt so much of the case to be like But what will you say if Constantine required That things brought into question should be answered and solued by Testimonie out of Scripture And the Bishops of the Nicene Councell neuer refused that Rule And what will you say if they professe they depart not from it but are readie by manie Testimonies of Diuine Scripture to demonstrate their Faith Is the case then alike betwixt it and Trent But you say the B. pretended somewhat else for his not admitting the case to be like F. Pretending that the Pope made Bishops of purpose for his side But this the Bishop prooued not B. No nor had he reason to take on him to prooue what he said not He knowes it will be expected he should prooue what hee saith and it is hard to prooue the purpose of the Popes heart For if it be prooued that hee made Bishops at that time that some of them were titular onely and had no liuelyhood to subsist but out of his Purse and so must hang at the strings of it that some of these thus made were sent to the Councell and sure not without their Errand yet if the Pope will say he neither made nor sent them to ouer-rule the Holy Ghost at that meeting or of purpose for his side as no question but it will be said Who can prooue it that is not a Surueyor of the Heart But though the Popes heart cannot be seene yet if these and the like presumptions be true it is a great signe that Trent was too corrupt and factious a meeting for the Holy Ghost to be at And sure the case in this not alike at Nice That which 〈◊〉 B. said was That Trent could be no indifferent Councell to the Church the Pope hauing made himselfe a strong partie in it And this the B. prooued though you be here not onely content to omit but plainely to denie the proofe For did not the B. prooue it thus and you answered not That there were more Italian Bishops there than of all Christendome besides more yea more than double And this he prooued out of the Councell it selfe which you had in your hand in Decimo Sexto but had no great heart to looke it For where the number of Prelates are expressed that had Suffrage and Vote in that Councell the Italians are set downe to be 187 and all the rest make but 83. So there were more Italian Bishops by 104 than of all the rest of Christendome Sure the Pope did not meane to be ouer-reached in this Councell And whatsoeuer became of his infallibilitie otherwise he might this way be sure to be infallible in whatsoeuer hee would haue determined So the B. prooued this sufficiently For if it were not to be sure of a side giue any satisfying reason Why such a potent partie of Italians more than double to the whole Christian World should be there Shew me the like for Nice and I will giue it that the case is alike betweene these two Councels But you haue not yet done with the B. You adde F. In fine the B. wished That a lawfull Generall Councell were called to end Controuersies The persons present said That the King was enclined thereunto and that therefore wee Catholikes might doe well to concurre B. And what say you to the Bishops wish You pretend great loue to the Truth would you not haue it found Can you or any Christian be offended that there should be a good end of Controuersies Can you thinke of a better end than by a Generall Councell And if you haue a most gracious King enclined vnto it as you say it was offered how can you 〈◊〉 your selues if you doe not consent Yes it seemes you can for you say againe F. I asked the B. Whether he thought a Generall Councell might 〈◊〉 He said It might B. I presume you doe not looke the B. or I for him should enter into a proofe of this Controuersie Whether a Generall Councell may erre in determination or not Your selfe brought no proofe that it cannot and till that be brought the Bishop his speech is good that it can And yet he hopes to be found no infringer of any power giuen by Christ to his Church But it seemes by that which followes you did by this Question Can a Generall Councell erre but seeke to win ground for your other which followes F. If a Generall Councell may erre What neerer are wee then said I to vnitie after a Councell determined Yes said he although it may erre yet we should be bound to hold with it till another come to reuerse it B. Whether a Generall Councell may erre or not is a Question of great consequence in the Church of Christ. To say it cannot erre leaues the Church not onely without remedie against an Error but also without sense that it may need a remedie and so without care to seeke it which is the miserie of the Church of Rome at this day To say it can erre seemes to expose the members of the Church to an vncertaintie and wauering in the Faith makes vnquiet spirits not onely disrespect former Councels of the Church but also slight and contemne

whatsoeuer it may now determine into which Error some opposers of the Church of Rome haue fallen And vpon this is grounded your Question Wherein are wee neerer to vnitie if a Councell may erre In relating the B. his Answer to this you are not so candide as you confesse him ingenuous before For his words did not sound as yours seeme to doe That wee should hold with the Councell erre or not erre till another came to reuerse it As if grounds of Faith might varie at the Racket and be cast of each side as a cunning hand might lay them You forget againe omit at least and with what mind you best know the B. his Caution For he said The determination of a Generall Councell erring was to stand in force and haue externall obedience at the least yeelded to it till euidence of Scripture or a demonstration to the contrary made the Error appeare and vntill thereupon another Councell of equall Authoritie did reuerse it Thus then the B. But indeed he might haue returned vpon you againe If a Generall Councell not confirmed by the Pope may erre which you affirme To what end then a Generall Councell And you may answere Yes for although a Generall Councell may erre yet the Pope as Head of the Church cannot An excellent meanes of vnitie to haue all in the Church as the Pope will haue it what euer Scripture say or the Church thinke And then I pray to what end a Generall Councell Will his Holinesse be so holy as to confirme a Generall Councell if it determine against him I for my part am willing a little to consider hereupon the point of Generall Councels How they may or may not erre and a little to looke into the Romane and Protestant opinion concerning them which is more agreeable to the Power and Rule which Christ hath left in his Church and which is most preseruatiue of Peace established or ablest to reduce vnitie into the Church of Christ when that poore Ship hath her Ribs dashed in 〈◊〉 by the Waues of Contention And this Consideration I will venture to the World but onely in the Nature of a 〈◊〉 and with submission to my Mother the Church of England and the Mother of vs all the Vniuersall Catholike Church of Christ. 1. First then I consider Whether all the Power that an Oecumenicall Councell hath to determine and all the Assistance it hath not to erre in that determination it hath it not all from the Catholike vniuersall Bodie of the Church or Clergie in the Church if you will whose Representatiue it is It seemes it hath For the gouernment of the Church being not Monarchicall but as Christ is Head this Principle is 〈◊〉 in nature Euerie Bodie collectiue that represents receiues Power and Priuiledges from that Bodie which is represented else a Representation might haue force without the thing it represents which cannot be So no Power in the Councell no Assistance but what is in and to the Church But yet then it may be questioned Whether the Representing Bodie hath all the power strength and priuiledge which the Represented hath And suppose it hath all the Legall power yet it hath not all the Naturall eyther of strength or wisedome that the whole hath Now because tho Representatiue hath power from the whole and the maine 〈◊〉 can meet no other way therefore the Acts 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 of the Representatiue be it Ecclesiasticall or Ciuile are binding in their strength But they are not so certaine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 from 〈◊〉 as that Wisedome which resides in the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Assemblies meerely Ciuile or Ecclesiasticall all 〈◊〉 men cannot be in the Bodie that represents And it is possible so many able and sufficient men for some particular businesse may be out as that they which are in may misse or mis-apply that Reason and Ground vpon which the determination is principally to rest Here for want of a cleare view of this Ground the Representatiue Bodie erres whereas the Represented by vertue of these Members may hold the Principle vnuiolated 2. Secondly I consider That since it is thus in Nature and in Ciuile Bodies if it be not so in Ecclesiasticall too some reason must be giuen why For that Bodie also consists of men Those men neyther all equall in their perfections of Knowledge and Iudgement whether acquired by Industrie or rooted in nature or infused by God Not all equall nor any one of them perfect and absolute or freed from passion and humane infirmities Nor doth their meeting together make them infallible in all things though the Act which is hammered out by many together must in reason be perfecter than that which is but the Child of one mans sufficiencie If then a Generall Councell haue no ground of not erring from the men or the meeting either it must not be at all or be by some assistance and power vpon them when they are so met together And this if it be lesse than the assistance of the Holy Ghost it cannot make them secure against Error 3. Thirdly I consider That the assistance of the Holy Ghost is without Error that 's no question and as little there is that a Councell hath it But the doubt that troubles is Whether all assistance of the Holy Ghost be affoorded in such a high manner as to cause all the Definitions of a Councell in matters fundamentall in the Faith and in remote Deductions from it to be alike infallible The Romanists to prooue there is infallible assistance produce some places of Scripture but no one of them inferres much lesse enforces an infallibilitie The places which Stapleton there rests vpon are these I will send you the Spirit of Truth which will lead you into all Truth And This Spirit shall abide with you for euer And Behold I am with you vnto the end of the World To these others adde The founding of the Church vpon the Rocke against which the Gates of Hell shall not preuaile And Christs prayer for S. Peter That his Faith faile not 1. For the first which is Leading into all Truth and that for euer All is not alwayes vniuersally taken in Scripture nor is it here simply for All Truth for then a Generall Councell could no more erre in matter of Fact than in matter of Faith in which yet your selues graunt it may erre But into All Truth is a limited All into All Truth absolutely necessarie to saluation And this when they suffer themselues to be led by the blessed Spirit by the Word of God And all Truth which Christ had before at least fundamentally deliuered vnto them Hee shall receiue of mine and shew it vnto you And againe Hee shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance which I haue told you And for this necessarie Truth too the Apostles receiued this promise not for themselues and a Councell but for themselues and the whole Catholike