vnto the ministrie and Sacramēts of Christ Neither could they make anie true or sincere confession without the preaching of the word going before to call them therevnto Vppon this issue we for that tyme ceased They affirming this verball confession in this maner sayd to be sufficient to enable all the people so saying it ouer And I for the reasons aboue said denying the same Mr. Hutchinson put vp the paper wherein these Arguments and propositions were wrytten into his bozome but promised me a Copie vvherevnto I condiscended so that vppon the next conference I might keepe the paper There arose cōtrouersie betwixt Mr. ANDR. me concerning these words 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He affirming them to be all one I to be very dyuerse the one signifying vicinity the other disiunction of habitations he alledging the ancyent vse And I both the ancient present affirming all to be corrupt Mr. Androes also in reasoning with me oft swore by his honestie for which I reproued him for swearing vnlawfully making his faith an Idole But he said I knew not what an oth or an Idole meant Mr. Androes also vsed this word Luck I sayed there was no fortune or luck but all things came to passe by the prouidence of God To prooue Luck he torned in my Testament to the 10. of Luke ver 31. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. And torned in a leafe vppon the place and as he was going out willed me to consider of it vvhich is no more then to come to passe although sodainly or vnloked for to vs yet by the direction prouidence of God vnto vs without which a sparrow falleth not vppō the ground So that though the heathens abused this word to chance fortune yet is it both contrary to Christian faith and not the first and proper signification of the word A summe of such cheif poynts as vvere handled in the second conferēce betwixt M r. Hutchinson Do. Androes on the one partie and Iohn Greenwood Henry Barrow prisoners in the Fleet on the other partie vppon the 13. of the 4. Moneth The discourse whereof orderly to set downe vve cannot all things were so disorderly handled therein by them who sought nothing so much as to obscure turne away the truth by theire schole learning manifold cauills shifts shameles denyall of manifest truthes most vnchristian contumelies scoffes reproches against owre persons 1. FIrst they hold by especially Do. Androes that the scriptures now ought not to decide controuersies because the scriptures cannot speake 2. That the scriptures ought to be iudged interpreted by the ancyent fathers wrytings not by other scriptures or the circumstances of the text 3. That because the spirits of the Prophets must be subiect to the Prophets therfore the wrytings of these dead men ought to iudge interpret the scriptures 4. That the scriptures ought to be interpreted expounded by Logick 5. That no man may preach the word or interpret scriptures but he that hath an office in the Church 6. Being pressed vvith Acts. 13. ver 15. And theire owne note vppon the same in theire Geneua Bible he vtterly reiected both that translation the notes therevppon saying yt vvas inhibited to be vsed in theire Church 7. They further said that Paul was a minister of that Synagogue because he was a Pharisey 8. There is no Church where there is no administracōn of sacraments Being pressed that the Pastor alone cannot make a Church neither that vppon the death or deposing of the Pastor at vvich tyme the Church for a season is vvithout sacraments as also that the host of the Israelites vvere a long tyme in the wildernes without sacraments they only answered vnto the last said that the Israelites vvere not without sacraments at anie tyme because they alwaies had the pillar of fire 9. Being shewed that this pillar was no sacrament of the couenant prescribed by God to be vsed of the Church they still affirmed that the Church could not be said to be without the sacraments whiles they had these Sacramentall signes 10. They held that Christ after his death descended into hell 11. Do. Androes indeuored to prooue it by Colos. 2. ver 15. because Christ is there said to haue triumphed ouer the principalities powers his consequent collection being denyed shewed to be a popish dreame to haue no groundworke or warrant from this place he sought to escape by denying the english translation which saith and hath tryumphed ouer them in the same cross because it is in some copies tryumphing them in himself 12. Being pressed that Christs spirit was in the hands of his father Luke 23.46 his bodie in the graue therfore he could not after his death descend into hell To this Do. Androes answered that his soule being in the hand of God might be in hell because the hād power of God was euery where Yt was then said that Christs soule was in paradise that all the soules of the blessed were then by that reason in hell aswell as his yea Christ his soule now might so be said to be in hel likewise because the power of God is euery where But Christ having finished all his suffrings performed them vppon his crosse Iohn 19. had now nothing to do in hell There remayned an Argument at our last conference without answere which was this None can be called to a true profession of faith vvithout the preaching of the gospell going before But all the people in these parishes vvere receaued into your Church vvithout the preaching of the gospell going before Therfore they vvere receaued vvithout a true profession 13. Do. Androes here denyed the minor said the people were not receaued into theire Church had the sacramēts delyuered vnto them before they had bene taught half a yeare Being demaunded what the people in the meane while were to be esteemed whether faithfull or idolatrous whether mēbers or not members of theire Church he said they were neither to be esteemed faithfull nor vnbelieuers neither members nor not members but they where all this while in membring 14. Being demaunded what those preachers were to be esteemed whither ministers or not ministers vnto this people they answered that they were ministers Argument 1. There can be no minister but vnto a flocke But here by your ovvne saying vvas no flocke at this tyme Therfore these could be no ministers vnto them 15. They here denyed the Maior affirmed that there may be a minister without a flocke Argument 2. A shepheard can be no shepheard ouer goates or svvyne but only ouer sheepe The ministerie of Christ cānot be set ouer infidells or ouer anie people to take chardge or cure ouer them vntill those people be called vnto haue made profession of the faith But here the people vvere not as then called vnto neither had made profession of the faith Therfore the ministerie of Christ could not
Fleete Mr. Androvves Iohn Greenwood in the Fleete Mr. Hutchinsō Do Sarauea Daniell Studley in the Fleete M r. Grauet Walter Lane in the Fleete M r. Fissher Edmond Tomson in the gatehouse M r. Iudson Iohn Nicolas in the gatehouse Mr. Temple William Dodson in the gatehowse Mr. Allison Iohn Barrens in the gatehowse Do Blague Iohn Cranford in the gatehowse M r. Herd Richard vvheeler in the gatehowse Mr. Harvye Thomas Canadine in the gatehowse A brief answeare to such Articles as the Bishopps haue giuen out in our name vpon which articles their Priests were sent and injoyned to Confer with vs in the seuerall prisons wherin we are by them detayned HOw charitablie soeuer theis forged positions conningly cōtriued may seme to be framed in respect of the sclaunderous priuiledged pamphletts heretofore dispersed through the whole land by the enemies of Christ suppressors of all righteousnes to bring vs in contempt with all men yet if we consider the end more sereously vvay the present drift of theis BBs theire priests and new reconciled Reformists set a worke in this busines we shal finde they neuer went more craftely about the spilling of owre innocent bloud For they in theire secret consultations hauing collected theis articles haue allso togeather vvith them constituted commaunded certaine theire priests twise euery weeke during this Lent to offer vs priuate conference in way of examination or auriculer confession to fish farther cause of accusation vppon theis poincts vvhose testimonie verdict of suborned vvitnesses they think to frame to their bloudthirstie appetites vve in the meane tyme not suffred eyther to set downe owre ovvne positions neyther before equall vvytnesses to ansvver or discouer theire false allegations Wherfore vve thought it good being all close prysoners to relate vnto all men that desire the truth ovvre simple iudgments in theis doctrines vvherat they thus snarrle vve resting still most desirous of anie christian or equall conference before indifferēt vvitnesses set dovvne recorded if vve might obteine the same vppon the dispence of ovvre lyues yea the God of heauen knovveth hovv vvilling ready vve are to be instructed or corrected in anie thing vvherin vve err vvhen it shalbe shevved vs by the booke of God First then vnderstand that theis accusers affirme theis to be ovvre positions vvhich they haue framed of theire ovvne braine vvithout ovvre knovvledg much lesse cōsent Secondly they pronunce vs nevve sectories although vve hold no other thing in iudgment or practize more then Christ his Apostles haue taught vs in the Scriptures and cōfirmed by theire examples deathes And vvhether Christs Testament in theis mens antichristian lavves ordinances fetched from Rome or deuised by themselues be novv to be holden nevve doctrines let all men consider Thirdly they call vs Recusants hauing neither forsaken the fellovvship of the true Church or least member of Christ that vvalketh in the Communion of the faith submytting himself to be guyded by Christs lavves ordinances nor refused anie truth approued vnto vs. Only vve according to the Commandment of God haue forsakē all sprirituall fellovvship vvith theire false Church as also the inuetions popery yea all the execrable marchandize of that ministery confused Babell euen that vvorld of vvickednes Out of vvhich the Lord dravve fourth all his elected 1. That it is not lavvful to vse the Lords prayer publiquely in the Church for a set forme of prayer THe Lords prayers vve take to be those prayers vvhich himself offred to his father in his ovvne person as he vvas man vppō earthe according to his present occasions the will of his father poured fourth The forme of prayer gyuen to his Disciples to all posterities by the record of the Euangelists we hold acknowledg most holy Canonicall scripture to be vsed of all Churches in that vse and to that end for which owre Sauioure gaue it Namely to be the perfect patterne rule of all owre prayers vvhether deprecations supplications thanksgyuing c. Not that we are bounde to the very vvords saying ouer or asking all things therin conteined euery tyme we pray nether that the words red or sayd ouer by rote can be called a prayer seing all prayer must proceede of Gods spyrit from owr owne harts according to owre present necessities So that where he calleth it the Lords prayer he falsefieth the text seing Christ neuer did or could vse it as his owne prayer For there is petition made for remission of synnes he neuer trespassing And where he saith we hold it vnlawfull to be vsed publiquelye in the Church for a fet forme of prayer he sclaundereth vs vve graunt it to be the absolute perfect only forme of all true prayers If anie demaund further vvhether vve may vse the vvords therof eyther wholy as they are set downe or anie sentence of them in prayers we answer by explication or application tending to edifying expressing owre present estate vve may The same questions may be demaunded of the prayers mentioned in the Psalmes dyuerse other scriptures to which vve aunswere that we restraine no man of the vse of anie parcell or sentence of Scripture rightly applyed Yet herevppon is not iustified eyther theire fyue tymes saying ouer of theire Pater Noster in theire English morrow masses nor yet theire superstitious repetition of theis words in the conclusions of theire prayers after or before theire sermons vvhen as they say they knowe not vvhat to aske and therfore pray as Christ hath taught them by repeting these vvords vvhich thei call the Lords prayer where in thei lye 2. That all sett stinted prayers are meere babling in the sight of the Lord and not to be vsed in publique Christian assemblies FOr such formes of prayer as are Canonicall such as be commended to vs by Gods spirit in his word we haue already in the former Article set downe the true holy vse of them to be for instruction c. But that anie man should thrust his deuises into the worship of God christian assemblies we wonder at theire ignorant presumption and much more that they dare be so bold as to set stint the holy ghost what vvhen hovv manie vvords to vtter in prayer So that your annuall monthly dayly morning and euening prayers vvherin you bynde mens consciences to the prescript repetition of your ovvne vvords as an offring to God vve hold them by the euidēce of Gods booke not only a babling but apochriphall Idolatrous contrary to the second Commaundmēt bringing the vvrath of God vppon the imposers receauers For by theis Idolls you take avvay the vvhole lyberty fredome true vse of spirituall prayer yea you stop the springs of the lyuing fountaine vvhich Christ hath sealed in his Church 3. That the publique prayers vvorship of God in England as it is by lavve in the Church of England established is false superstitious popish not so be vsed in anie
the Bishops before him BAR. I desire nothing more then Christiā cōference but hauing bene 2 yeares well nye an half kept by the Bishops in close prysō could neuer as yet obteine anie such cōferēce where the Booke of God might peaceablie decide all owr controuersies ANDR. Whie the Booke of God cānot speake which way should that decide owr controuersies BAR. But the spirit of God can speake and which way is that spirit tryed or discerned but by the word of God ANDR. But the spirits of men must be subiect vnto men will you not subiect your spirit to the iudgment of men BAR. The spirit of the prophets must be subiect to the prophets yet must the prophets iudg by the word of God And for me I willingly submit my whole faith to be tryed iudged by the word of God of all men ANDR. All men cannot iudge who then shal iudge of the word BAR. The word and let euery one that iudgeth take hede that he iudge aright therby vvisdome is iustified of her Children ANDR. This sauoreth of a pryuat spyrit BAR. This is the spirit of Christ his Apstles moste publique they submitted theire doctrines to the triall of all men by the word So do I. ANDR. What are you an Apostle BAR. No but I haue the spirit of the Apostles ANDR. What the spirit of the Apostles BAR. Yea the spirit of the Apostles ANDR. What in that measure BAR. In that measure that God hath imparted vnto me though not in that measure that the Apostles had by anie comparison yet the same spirit There is but one spirit HVTCH. Well you will confer then and we come to confer with you if you vvill BAR. I am most willing of anie conference that may be to the glory of God and owr edefying HVTCH. Well let vs go to it then What say you to these propositions Hauing the Bishops articles Somes booke in his hand BAR. For Somes booke I disclaimed it and sayd the mā had greatly iniured me For anie propositions that I hold I was desirous to set downe myne owne propositiōs and neuer required either the BB s. or Do. Some to set them downe for me HVTCH. I was at the great Commission a yeare agoe where you did set downe with your owne hand your owne answeres BAR. Then did you see the Bishops offer me the greatest wronge that I suppose was euer offred to anie Christian in anie age I was brought out of my close pryson cōpelled there to answere of the sodaine vnto such articles as the Bishops in theire secret Councell had contriued against vs. I could not be admitted anie furder respire or consideration neither anie present conference with anie of my bretheren neither yet so much as a Copie of myne owne answers though I most earnestly humblie besought the same but haue euer since bene kept in most streight emprisonment without companie ayre or comfort neuer hearing of anie kinde of conference vntill now But haue in the meane vvhile bene greuouflie sclandered blasphemed and accused by sparsed articles printed priuiledged books in theire pulpets in open Session and vnto owre honorable maiestrats HVTCH. We will not heare your complaints because we cānot redresse your complaints ANDR. For close emprisonment you are most happie The solitarie contemplatiue life I hold the most blessed life It is the life I would chuse BAR. You speake philosophically but not Christianly So sweete is the harmonie of Gods graces vnto me in the congregation and the conuersation of the Saints at all tymes as I think my self as a sparrow on the howse toppe when I am exiled from them But could you be content also M r. Androes to be kept from exercise ayre so long togeather These are also necessarie to a naturall bodye ANDR. I say not that I would want ayre But who be those Saincts you speake of where are they BAR. They are euen those poore Christiās whom you so blaspheme persequote and now most vniustly hold in your prysons ANDR. But where is theire Congregation BAR. Though I knew I purposed not to tell you HVTCH. They are a companie of Sectories as you also are BAR. Know you vvhat a Sectorie is HVTCH. I know you to be Sectories Schismaticks BAR. What both It should seeme you know not what a Sectory is But it is euident that your Church is deeply set both in Schisme apostacye HVTCH. A Sectory Schismatick are both one BAR. That is not so A Schismatick is euer cut from the Church a Sectory is not so HVTCH. They are both one and come indifferently of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 scindo findo ANDR. There is difference betwixt 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a schisme and an heresie the one signifying election the other a rent But I neuer heard of anie difference betwixt a Schisme a sect both comming of one word BAR. Though they both come of one roote yet is not a Schisme and a Sect all one Here they would needs haue a greeke Dictionary greatly wished it So I sent for scapula which being fetched did not satisfie vs concerning this point ANDR. Secta in latine is the same that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in greeke BAR. I denie that There is difference betwene a Sect and a Schisme ANDR. Secta coms of seco to cut and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to cut what difference BAR. I take the vse of the word Secta rather to be of sequor to follow because Secta a Sect signifieth via a way and great difference appeareth in the Scriptures betwixt a Schismaticke a Sectory A Sectory is allways in the Church a Schismaticke allwayes out of the Church ANDR. Where finde you this in the Scriptures BAR. I finde it 1. Cor. 3. and Hebr. 10. In the one place Sectories in the other Schismaticks described ANDR. The Sectories 1. Cor. 3. are Schismaticks BAR. That cannot be they were cheif teachers of in the Church of Corinth where the Apostle reproueth them because some held of followed one teacher some of an other as if one had held of Paul another of Apollos ANDR. There contentions are called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 BAR. What of that yet you see these were Sectories and Schismaticks are they which haue cut thēselues from the Church Hebr. 10. by leauing the fellowship HVTCH. 1 Cor. 11. The Apostle saith that Schismes are amongst them Therfore in the Church BAR. What is that to the purpose I hope you will not say that he cā be a Schismatick vntill he haue rent himself frō the Church There shalbe heresies Schismes in the Church yet no hereticke or Schismaticke vntill they be eyther cōuinced remaine obstinate or else haue cut themselues from the Church by forsaking the fellowship ANDR. Augustine saith that an heretick breaketh the faith a Schismatick charitie BAR. A Schismatick also breaketh the faith by departing from the communion
all his Children and hath gyuen to vs his holy Spirit to help owr infirmities to teach vs to pray according to his will in his worde we are also there taught That we neede no man to teach vs but as the same anoyntinge teacheth vs of all things moreouer we finde not anie such deuised prayers or stinted seruice perscribed to the Church by those excellēt perfect workemen Thappostles neyther yet anie Commaundment or authoritie gyuē by thē vnto the church to make bring in ympose or receiue anie such stinted deuised Apochripha seruice where only the worde of God the graces of Gods spirit ought to be heard For these causes we esteeme refuse all such deuised Liturgies as superfluous will not worshipp inuentiōs traditions of men besids contrary to Gods reuealed worde to the graces of Gods Spirite to owr Christian libertie Wherfore we wonder at the ignorance of theise blynde Pharesies which knowing neither the right ende vse nor meanes of prayer thēselues yet dare in this maner teach correct quench the Spirit of God in others by ymposing the chaffe leauen of their own lypps vppon the whole Church yea as a sacryfice vppon God himself will he nyl he Article 3. They teache their is no head or Supreame gouernor of the Church of Christ And that the Queene hath none authoritie in the Church to make lawes Ecclesiasticall WE hold Christ to be the only heade of his Church the greatest Princes in the world to be but members of his Church We hold her Maiestie to be supreame gouernor of al persons estats causes whatsoeuer with in her Dominiōs We renounce the Pope all popishe iurisdictions ouer eyther Conscience Queene or Contrye and we acknowledg no other Prince potentate or power forreigne or Domestical Ecclesiasticall or Ciuill to haue anie superiour or equall authoritie within her Maiesties Dominions We hold Christ to be the only Lawgyuer in his Church and that he hath already beinge the Sonne as faithfull in his howse as his seruant MOSES in his Tabernacle established sufficient Lawes for the gouerment of his Church vnto the worlds end in his last will Testament which no Prince nor all the Princes in the world nor the whole Church may alter add vnto or take from vppon the paynes contayned in the Scriptures But both Prince people ought with all their endeuour as farr as the Lorde hath gyuen them knowledge meanes to put the same in execution Article 4. They teache that a lay man may beget faith And that vve haue no neede of publique administration WE know not what you meane by your old popish termes of lay men we holde al true beleyuers Ecclesiasticall spirituall yea and that anie such beleyuer may beget faith and for euident proofe thereof referr you to these places of scripture Luke 10.1 c. Luke 8.39 Acts. 8.4 Acts 11.19 c. Acts. 18.26 1 Corin. 14. entier 1 Corinth 7.16 Phil. 2.15.16 1 Pet. 3.2 1 Pet. 4.10 2 Tim. 2.2 1 Thessa. 5.11 c. Iam. 5.19.20 which shall eyther instruct of cōuince your herein Yet hold we the publique administracōn of the word by PASTORS TEACHERS and the PROPHETS in the church by far without all comparyson more excellent more blessed more to be desired and iudg your synne and iniquitie by so much the more heynouse and euen come to the full in that you so bitterly with all your gall and spyte resist the holy ghost by hindring vs his seruants from proceeding to so heauenly gracious a meanes of owr saluation and earnestly with all your forces oppose your selues against God in that you will neither enter your selues into his kingdome nor suffer such as would Article 5. They condemne all comming to Churche all preaching all Institution of Sacraments and say that all the Ministers are sent by God in his anger to deceaue the people THe Lord condemneth and we according to his Commaundement shunne all false Churches false deceitfull preaching and false Institutions of Sacraments and we belieue as the Lord hath said that all false Ministers are sent of God in his wrath to deceaue the people of which sorte we protest your publique parrish assemblies as they stand in this Confusion disorder and Idolatrie your publique preaching Sacraments and ministrie to be and are ready by the manifest euidence of Gods vndoubted word to approue the same to your faces it anie Christian audience or indifferent tryall might be granted Article 6. They affirme that the people must reforme the Church and not tarye for the Magistrate And that the Primatiue Churche sued not to Courts or Parliaments nor vvayted vppon Princes pleasures But vve make Christ to attend vppon Princes to be Subiect to their lavves and gouernment WE goe not about to reforme your Romish Bisshopricks Deanes officers Aduocates Courts Cannons neither your popish Priests halfe-Priests Ministers all which come out of the bottomlesse pytt But we leaue those merchantmen their wares with the curse of God vppon them vntill they repent We are also taught in the word that the kingdome of God commeth not by obseruation neither is brought in by the arme of flesh but by the spirit of God and by the power of his worde working in the harts of all Christs faithfull seruants true repentance from deade workes and all things that displease the Lord euen as sone as they are reproued vnto them by his worde as also a true conuersion of theire harts and soules vnto the Lord with an earnest loue continuall zeale and ready desire to put in practise what soeuer the Lord sheweth them to be his will in his worde without all delaye or excuse whosoeuer forbyd or Commaunde the contrary We are to obey God rather then men and if anie man be ignorant let him be ignorant stil We are not to stay from doing the Lords Commaundement vppon the pleasure or offence of anie Article 7. That the Booke of common prayer is a pregnant I dole and full of abhominations a peice of Svvynes flesh and abhomination to the Lorde WE haue shewed in owr answeare to your second Article what we thinke of all Apocrypha deuised Liturgies when they are brought into emposed vppon the Church But seinge you are so zealous for the syluer shryne of your DIANA and wayle for your Portuise we affirme it to be as you report a PREGNANT IDOLE which hath in it an infinite sorte of Idols is full of abhominations bytter fruite As may appeare by the double Idols of your solempne double feasts of your hollomass Christmass Candlemass Easter Whitsontyde Trynitie sonday c. Your Lady dayes Saints dayes with the Eaues feasts fasts and deuised worshipp vnto them which fill a great part of your booke Also your lents Rogacōns ash-wensdayes with the bitter cursings
at that tyme be set ouer them in that estate 16. They still denied the Maior gaue this reason therof because the vnbeleeuers might heare the ministerie of the Church Wee graunted that the vnbeleeuers might heare the ministerie of the Church but from hence it followeth not that they had interest in the ministerie before they were members of the Church It is one thing to heare the ministerie of the Church an other thing to be a member of the Church 17. Then they brought Pauls example to proue that a ministerie might be set ouer infidells because he was said to be the teacher of the Gentiles all the Apostles willed to goe and teach all nations To this it was answered that Paul stood no minister neither tooke gouernment or chardge ouer anie heathen which were not called to the faith ioyned to the Church still putting difference betwixt teaching the heathen the truth exercising a ministerie ouer them 18. They alledged 1 Pet. 1. that the Apostle there tooke chardge care ouer strangers Yt was answered that those strangers were Iewes called to the faith dispersed through manie regions as the next verse 1 Pet. 1.2 Iames 1. sheweth 19. Paul wrote himself a father of the Corinths though ye haue manie teachers yet haue ye but one father Yt was still answered that those Corinthians were beleeuers Argument 3. There can be no communion betvvixt the beleeuers vnbeleeuers therefore the infidells can haue no communion vvith the Church in the ministerie thereof or in anie spirituall action Being demaunded by them what we meant by communion we answered such cōmunion as is spoken of Act. 2.42 in doctrine in prayer in the sacraments in mutuall communication in all Christian duties how none were receaued to this communion before they were ioyned as members vnto the Church Argument 4. There can novv be no Pastor ouer anie people by the rules of Christi testamēt but vvhere a mutuall couenant is made betvveene the Pastor the people he bounde to teach guide gouerne them they againe to obey him in the Lord But the infidells haue made no such couenant vvith the Pastor Therfore c. 20. Do. Androes said the Pastor ought not to gouerne that he himself was a Pastor yet no guyde or gouernor of the flocke and that in the Church there were gouernors ouer the Pastors as Bishops We answered that the word Bishop or Ouerseer vvas a generall name cōmon to the Pastor teacher Elders vvhich name importeth gouernment care Phil. 1.1 Act. 20.28 21. Do. Androes here said that the vvord bishop was not common vnto either the Pastor teacher or Elders but vnto other higher gouernors We answered that vnto their ministerie the name of a bishop did not indeed accord but only vnto their Lord bishops desired some proofe of this their assertion out of the word of God 22. Vnto vvhich they answered that all their ministerie vvas by positiue lavves We then said that it must needs follow that all their religion vvorship was pollitick also that ministerie vvhich Christ hath not prescribed in his Testament is antichristian At lentgh after manie bitter reprochfull speaches against vs vve returned againe to our former discourse framed this Argument vnto the rest Argument 5. The people novv are to make choice proofe of their Paestor But thei vvithout the faith cannot make choice of theyr Pastor Therfore c. Here they said that this allowre other positions were fond vaine foolish this was all the answere vve could get of them Mr. Hutchinson at the breaking vp requyred me Henry Barrow to set downe some reasons whie I refused to ioine vnto their Church that the people present might be satisfied whervppon I set him downe vnder mine hand as followeth The reasons vvhie I Henry Barrow cannot ioine with the Church of England yeilded by me the 13. of the 4. Moneth 1. The people as they stand are not called orderly to the faith but stand mingled togeather in confusion 2. The ministerie set ouer them is not the true ministerie of the gospell which Christ hath appointed to his Church in his testament 3. The administration worship of this Church is not according to the word of God 4. The ecclesiasticall gouernment Courts officers Cannons are not according to the testament of Christ but new antichristian Vntill all these points be eyther approoued by the word of God or reformed I cannot consent to ioyne vnto this Church in this estate These things I witnesse subscribe H. Barrovv I Iohn Greenwood being demaunded by M r. Hutchinson whether I would set downe myne hād vnto this or ells yeild some other cause of my dislike refused to do either of both vntill he had prooued the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ as he had twise promised at neither of his commings would performe A breif answeare to certayne sclaunderous Articles vngodlie calumniations sparsed abrode by the BB s theire adherēts against diuerse faithfull true Christians her Maiesties loyall and louinge Subiectes to cullour theire owne vngodly tyrannicall dealing with them to bring them into hatred both with Prince and people Article 1. They hold that the Lords praier or anie sell prayer is blasphemy they neuer vse anie prayer for the Queene as supreame head vnder Christ of the Church of England Ansvveare WE hold that the Lords praier so commonly called is sacred Canonicall scripture cōteyning a most absolute perfect rule grownd worke wherby all faith full prayers ought to be framed gyuen by owr Sauyour Christ for the instruction and confirmatiō of his Disciples that theire prayers might be according to the will glory of God But that the very forme of words as they are in theis petitions were gyuē instituted as a sett stinted prayer or that owre Sauiour Christ his Apostles haue euer vsed yt in that maner we finde not in the scriptures where we see theire prayers according to theire present occasions c. set downe in other words no mention made of such prescript lymited saying of this as they requyre enioyne Moreouer if they were as ignorant what belongeth to true prayer or of the true vse of this forme for prayer as they seeme yet euen theyre owne practize in theire pulpyts Liturgies doth excuse vs thus far forth condemne them For her Maiestie we praye both publiquely pryuatly day night at all tymes places according to owre duties as becommeth vs and godwilling wyll not cease so to do whilst owre lyues shall last Article 2. That all set prayers or stinted prayers or read seruice are but meere bablinge in Gods sight plaine Idolatrie TO this we answeare that we are taught in the Scriptures That God is a Spirit wilbe worshipped in Spirit truth we finde further in the Script in owr selues That God gyveth to