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spirit_n	father_n	lord_n	soul_n	6,920	5	4.8290	4	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A88105	Light for smoke: or, A cleare and distinct reply by Iohn Ley, one of the Assembly of Divines at Westminster, to a darke and confused answer in a booke made, and intituled The smoke in the temple, by Iohn Saltmarsh, late preacher at Brasteed in Kent, now revolted both from his pastorall calling and charge. Whereto is added, Novello-mastix, or a scourge for a scurrilous news-monger.	Ley, John, 1583-1662.; C. D. Novello-mastix.	1646 (1646)	Wing L1883; Thomason E333_2; Thomason E333_3; ESTC R200742	90,377	128

benefit by Tythes as now I have And if Tythes were taken away I am confident I should be no loser by another allowance though it may be I may fall under a misrepresentation as if I argued for them as Demetrius for the honour of Diana when I mind ●●●●ing more then the gaine of Tythes as he did the gaine of her silver Shrines and I may the rather suspect it from some of your side though not from you because I find the like charge laid upon Mr. Edw. by i Whisp in the eare of Mr. Tho. Edw. p. 1.2.15 Mr. W.W. in his Whisper in his care wh● as he is like Luther in the vigour and freedome of his spirit so is he as Luther said of himselfe of all sinnes the freest from covetousnesse and on my knowledge whereas he hath had the offer of many good Benefices he resused them and hath no Tythes at all for his maintenance but a voluntary pension which is not competent for his charge or paines either in an answerable preportion or a seasonable payment and yet is he contented with it minding much more the doing of the worke he undertooke then the receiving of the wages SECT IX Of Mr. Colemans observation of the Church of Scotland Smoke Pag. 28. TO your other of the blessings and blessed fruits in Scotland th●● there is no Heresie nor Schisme l●t Mr. Coleman our learned and pious Brother speake for us both from his experiences Light I 〈◊〉 by this passage you have not read the Booke you pretend to answer for Mr. Colemans experience was not of Heresie and Schisme in the Church of Scotland but as he gave instance of the Presbyteries usurpation of the power of banishment and if you meane Mr. Colemans charge for that as I suppose you doe you might have taken notice of an Answer to it in the seventh Section of mine Examination of your New Quere p. 21. which though it were in part but conjecturall is confirmed by a more certain Answer of the Reverend Commissioner Mr. * Mr. Gillespie his Nihil Respondes p. 24. Gillespie in these words What from Scotland I my selfe saith Mr. Coleman did heare the Presbyterie of Edinborough censure a woman to be banished out of the gates of the City was not this an incroachment It had beene an incroachment indeed if it had been so But he will excuse me if I answer him in his owne Language which I use not p. 3. 5. It is at the best a most uncharitable slander and there was either ignorance or mindlesnesse in him that sets it downe There is no banishment in Scotland but by the Civill Magistrate who so farre aydeth and assisteth Church Discipline that prefane and scandalous persons when they are found unruly and incorrigible are punished with banishment or otherwise A stranger coming at a time into one of our Presbyteries and hearing of somewhat which was represented to or reported from the Magistrate ought to have so much circumspection and charitie as not to make such a rash and untrue report He might have at least inquired when he was in Scotland and informed himselfe better whether Presbytery or the Civill Magistrate doe banish If he made no such inquirie he was rash in judging if he did his offence is greater when after information he will not understand And if you put your cause to the arbitration of Mr. Coleman you will find cause by the sentence to conceive him to be no more an Independent then we have to take him to be a Presbyterian and I suppose I may say he is more ours then yours since he hath put himselfe into the Association of a Classicall Assembly in the Province of London howsoever whether he prove a Participle or a Neuter I know you will not be concluded by his either opinion or practise no more shall we SECT X. A Comparison of young men and old for prudence and counsell Of visions and dreames where the second of Ioel vers 28. and Act. 2.17 are vindicated from Mr. Saltm his mistaking and misapplication of them Smoke Pag. 29. To that of Iob which you apply in way of reproach to the younger whom you call as it were greene heads c. Smoke p. 29. Light In stead of acknowledgement of your misapplication of Iob 32. vers 6 7. where with I charge you Sect. 4. pag. 14. of my Booke you lay a charge upon me for reproaching the younger with the name of green-heads That the impartiall Reader may be the better able to judge betwixt us both I will set down first my words to you then yours to me my words are these For his Epiphonema with the words of Elihu forementioned which are taken out of Iob 32. vers 6 7. Why doe not dayes speake and multitude of yeares teach knowledge they make nothing for his purpose for the meaning of them is not that Government or Discipline or any other usefull thing should not be with all convenient speed established but that the ancient with whom is wisdome Iob 12.12 the gray-headed and very aged men Chap. 15.10 who have had the experience of many dayes and yeeres should be heard and heeded in matters of advise and consultation before such green-headed Counsellours as Rehoboam followed to his ruine 1 Kings 12.13 14. Smoke Pag. 29. And your Answer to them is The elder I esteeme as Fathers and the younger we know are such in whom the Lord speakes more gloriously as he himselfe saith Your young men shall see visions and upon your sonnes and daughters will I powre out my spirit your old men shall dreame deames Now whether is it more excellent to dreame dreames or to see visions The Lord delivered Israel by the young men of the Provinces Surely we may more safely hearken to the younger that see visions of reformation then to the elder that dreame dreames of it onely Light I spake no more either in praise of old men or disparagement of young then conduced to cleare the Text in question betwixt us yet thence you have taken occasion to magnifie young men and to vilifie the old alleadging the saying of the Prophet Ioel Your old men shall dreame dreames and your young men shall see visions and thereupon demanding whether is more excellent to dreame dreames or to see visions you resolve the Question your selfe thus Surely we may more safely hearken to the younger that see visions of Reformation then to the elder that dreame dreames of it onely And doe all or onely or most young men see visions of Reformation and all or onely or most old men but dreame dreames of it If there be not such an Antithesis betwixt them your comparative thesis is an errour of youth a slander of age and I shall not doubt if you take up a duell with me in this quarrell with the old mans crutch bring what weapons you will or can to beat you out of the field or at least to give you the foyle But

diverse and we may bee friends though not Brethren If we be in one Christ I should rather say we are Brethren though not friends but if we be friends and in Christ we must needs be Brethren sonnes of the same Father and heires of the same hope and inheritance in heaven although not knowing or suspecting each others interest wee may bee more unfriendly among our selves then we should be And though you be lesse a Brother then you have been for as I heare you acknowleldged before the Honourable Committee of Examinations that you have renounced your Ordination the ground of your Ministeriall Brotherhood in the Church of England yet since you are pleased to call me both b So in the inscription of your Letter Friend and c In your Smoke p. 26. Brother I shall with much hearty sorrow to see your good parts so ill imployed as they are on the wrong side and my fervent prayers to the Father of lights to give you light for smoke to guide you into the way of Truth and Peace and to settle you in it sincerely subscribe my selfe Yours in the affections and offices of a friend and Brother JOHN LEY LIGHT FOR SMOKE OR A Cleare and distinct Reply to a darke and confused Answer of Mr. Iohn Saltmarsh c. SECT I. Of the Title Independent in what sence it is disclaimed in what acknoweldged and of subordination idenied by Mr. S. and puritie in the Church held necessary by him Smoke Pag. a In the former edition the answer to me beginneth a new order of figures so this quotation is p. 2. but in the second edition it is p. 12. 12. FOr the notion of Independencie you speake of I dare not owne it because I account my selfe both under a spirituall and civill supremacie under Jesus Christ and the Magistrate severally and exempt from neither Light Your pretended dependencie on the Magistracie will not exempt you from the name or notion of Independencie a title diversly entertained by the Anti-Presbyteriall party while some own and honour it some disclaime and abhor it b Mien Exam of the New Quere p. 2. as I have formerly shewed for you give the Magistrate so little power in matter of Religion that c Smoke p. 62. 63. you would have all left to a libertie of conscience science therein cnceiving that as d M. SAltm Epistle to the Beleevers of severall opinions p. 1. though the wayes be divers to the Citie of London some travelling from the North some from the South some from the East and some from the West yet all come thither though there may be some mistaking of the way in each so is the gathering of the Saints into heaven Which if you meane of so many several Sects of beleevers as in this Booke and some other of your Pamphlets you plead for you meane it of some who are as farre out of the way to heaven as if a man at Lichfield should travell not Soth-ward but North-ward to goe to London or as if at Barwicke he should travell not North-ward but South-ward to come to Edenborough Smoke Pag. 12. We dare not be Classicall Provinciall Nationall these are no formes of wholesome words to which we are commended nor know we any such power but that of Brethren Ministerie and Fellowship and if you call the Churches of Christ Independent for this we must suffer till the Lord bring forth our righteousnesse as the noone-day Light The graduall subordination of Assemblies against the Independencie of Congregationall meetings is made good by the large and learned Booke of Mr. Samuel Rutherford so that it is needlesse to take up their defence in this place at least with you who as I have observed your genius are not fit to be taken for an Antagonist in any Polemicall point And for that you say they are no formes of wholesome words it is no more then the Arians said of the words Trinitas Essentia Hemoeusios Persona because they found them not in the Scripture And if you were not swayed by a spirit of Libertinisme you would thinke them very wholsome words as signifying soveraigne remedies against the ruptures of Schisme and uleers or gangrenes of Heresie Smoke Pag. 12. Nor know we any such power but that of Brethren Ministers and Fellowship Light Doe you not know Sr. that that which is Ministerie and service in respect of God may be rulel and authoritie in respect of men are there not Officers in the Church called Elders and are not those Elders Rulers and those Elders and Rulers Fathers and is there not a spirituall fatherhood and begetting through the Gospel 1 Cor. 4.15 and must not these by the fifth Commandement be honoured and obeyed under that Title above the relation of Brotherhood and Fellowship and are there not children in the Church as well as Fathers and may not the father as the child gives him cause use both the rod and the spirit of meeknesse if not surely the Apostle would not have put this Question to the Corinthians Shall I come unto you with a rod or in love and in the spirit of meeknesse vers 21. of the same Chapter Smoke Pag. 12. And if you call the Churches of Christ Independent for this wee must suffer untill the Lord bring forth our righteousnesse as the noon-day Light If I were worthy to give a Name to the Churches of Christ I would call them Dependent for the most of them are subordinate to Classicall Provinciall and Nationall Assemblies not Independent as the fewest are and of those few some of them are so unsound in doctrine that they deserve not the title of Churches to be put upon them and if you professe your selfe Independent in that sence you have acknowledged and for that be so called I pray you Sr. what suffering doe you complaine of is it any suffering to you to be called by your Name Mr. Saltmarsh which you owne and foro the bringing forth of your righteousnesse as the noone day I must tell you Sr. your dawnings of light are come to this noone dayes discovery that all may see but those whose eyes are darkened with your Smoke that the unrighteousnesse of those Sectaries whom you embrace as Independent Brethren in broken forth as the smoke of the bottomlesse pit Revel 9.2 with great danger to corrupt the ayre into an Epidemicall contagion SECT II. The Objection of unseasonablenesse of Mr. Saltm his Quare justified and his grosse mistake or wilfull falsification of my words detected Smoke Pag. 14. VVHat better season could I come in then such a one wherein things were but moving and ripening towards establishment where no thing is setled there nothing can be disturbed And whereas you say the Parliaments determinations were finall that holds better for me who might have spoken to much lesse purpose had I staid till and had beene done and the determinations ended and become finall sure it was a time then to speake or

for the manner Revelation by a dreame is as cleare and as sure as by a vision as in that of Abraham of Iacob of Solomon of Ioseph forementioned to which we may adde that of Abimelech Gen. 20.3 and out of humane Authours the dreame of h Hieron Epist ad Eustoch de custod Virg. Tom. 1. p. 146. 147. Hierome wherein he was brought before the Tribunall of Christ and denied to be a Christian because he was too much a Ciceronian and was adjudged to bee scourged and was so and in the morning he found his shoulders blew with his beating and the dreame of i Hospinian in Hist Sacram. part alt fol. 26. Rivet Exercit in Gen. 28. Exercit. 123. p. 603. Zuinglius against the Masso had an evidence of the matter very cleare though for the Authour he was uncertain But we may say further that dreames have an excellency above visions and the reason is this That which hath more of God and lesse of man is more excellent then that which contrariwise hath more of man and lesse of God now in dreames there is more of God and lesse of man because in sleepe the senses are bound up and so there is more communion betwixt the spirit of God and the soule of man and lesse interruption in that communion then to men awake so that in dreames there is no disturbing of the Revelation by the concurrence of sensuall objects no denying or suspending of assent by examination of reason as Dr. k Rivet ubi supra Rivet well observeth And the reason is ratified by naturall Philosophy for the minde saith l Viget animus in somniis liberque sensibus ab omn● impeditione curarum jacente et mortuo paene corpore Cicer. de Divinat lib. 1. pag. 274. Cicere in dreames is vigorous being free from senses and from all interruption of cares the body the while being in a manner dead And elsewhere he m Dormientium animi maxime declarant divinitatem suam multa enim cum remissi liberi sint futura prospiciunt ex que intelligitur quaeles futuri sint cum se plane corporis vinculis relaxaverint Cicer. de Senect p. 417. saith that the minds of men asleepe declare their divinitie for when they are relaxed and free they foresee many future things whence it may be gathered what they will be hereafter when they are wholly released from bonds of the body The second Particular which your comparative speech implyeth is that visions ascribed to young men are denied to old men whereas old men have their visions as well as young as John the Evangelist though he were young when he came first to be a Disciple of his and our great Master had his Revelations by vision in the Isle of Pathmus when he was old viz. in the 96. yeer of Christ which must be at least the 80. yeere of Johns age if we suppose him to be but 14. yeeres old at the entrance of his attendance on him and younger we cannot reasonably imagine him to have been at that time A third thing which in your comparison of young men and old for visions and dreames I may not admit of is that you bring it to the matter of reformation and make it as if the young men had seent a vision and that old men had but some darke notions of it like unto a nightly dreame which is so presumptuous and groundlesse a conceit that your most waking thoughts cannot make it seeme otherwise to any sound understanding then a vapour of a young mans bragge or the vanity of a sick mans dreame SECT XI Mr. Saltm his insufficient answer and figurative trifting unworthy of an Answer Smoke Pag. 29. FOr that of the conversion from Paganisme to Christianitie there is no such disproportion c. Light If the indifferent Reader will turne to the place pag. 15. of my Booke he shall perceive your Answer to my Text which you doe not faithfully repeat is very insufficient and if he read your words first and mine after he will take them for a confutation of yours not yours for a confutation of mine and the like hath been said by a judicious Reader for a great part of your Reply Smoke Pag. 30. But we are speaking of the spirituall building or Church here which is the image of the Church above and as that is of true reall essentially spirituall living stones so the Church below is to consist at least of such as visibly and formally appeare so Light In this and many other passages of your Booke you are rather typicall in representation then topicall in proofe you follow your Allegory so farre that to follow you therein is rather to dally then to dispute Besides the result of your exception either closeth with my sence or strayeth from the question in difference betwixt us and if in such particulars I do not trace your steps think not I could not answer you but that I would not trouble my selfe nor tire the Reader with trifling impertinencie SECT XII A comparison of Presbyterians and Independents in point of strictnesse and loosenesse in admission of members of the mixture in the Church of Corinth Smoke Pag. 32. LEt the doores of our Churches be as strait as you imply I am sure your doores are set open or rather cast off the hinges Light That the doores of our Churches are no straiter may be partly imputed to some of your party who have no minde of such a through reformation as would deprive them of an opportunity and occasion of gathering of Churches which could have no pretence if the Reformation were wrought up to such a pitch as the Presbyterians desire And if our doores be set too open or cast off the hinges it is in permitting Independents such a libertie of Lecturing in our Churches to preach against Presbytery as they would never yeeld to Presbyterians were it in their power to prohibit them But Sr. I beleeve in some respects neither commendable nor warrantable your doores are more open then ours your hinges more loose then ours your walles much more wide or rather you have neither doores nor hinges nor walles to bound your membership for if you had how could people of London Holland New England be members of the same particular Church as before hath beene objected unto you but this is not cardo controversiae betwixt you and me Smoke Pag. 32. To that of your challenge that I should shew any such example in the New Testament of taking out the best when there was a mixture of holy and profane I answer These were Gospel Churches gathered by the Word and Spirit into Gospel fellowship and when you make your Parishes to appeare such Churches then I shall tell you more till then I shall suspend your challenge Light By this Reply I see though you take time to answer a challenge you will rather foile your selfe then seeme to be foiled by your Antagonist for if Gospel Churches

if their transgressions deserve it since therein they doe their owne worke whereto by their office they are obliged and when they doe so you should not so disparage the Magistrates as to match them with such wicked Officers as set upon our blessed Saviour and with violent hands violated the Majestie and Piety of his Person nor so honour such hereticall Incendiaries and slaughter men as those Anabaptists were as to compare them to Christ And for your caveat against shedding of spirituall blood if you meane by that phrase the blood of Sectaries or Hereticks whom some take to be more spirituall then other men they are many of them very carnall Gospellers and if spirituall rather such as are led by a wicked spirit the suggester of hereticall untruths and tempter to diabolicall blasphemies and outrages then such as are guided by the Spirit of truth and holinesse and if by spirituall blood you meane as the most judicious commonly use and understand the phrase the blood of soules it is that which ingageth the Magistrates to represse hereticall Teachers for by drawing others to heresie they are guilty of the blood of soules and they are all guilty of that blood who doe not all they can according to their place and power to prevent the shedding of it by seducing Doctors for zeale in this cause I have cited some lively and vigorous sayings of the Ancients in my former * Sect. 12. p. 13. Book to which I remit you Smoke Pag. 46. So as you will have an hazard runne both in State and Church for a new experiment upon the Ministers but sure your Statists will tell you it is not safe trying experiments with States they are too vast bodies for that what thinke you of that Physician who will cast his Patient into a disease to trie a cure on him you know the old morall Adage Turpius ejicitur quam non admittitur hospes light To your exception we have not yet any experience of our new Clergie my a Examination of the New Querie Sect. 10. p. 32. Answer was Then they cannot yet be charged with misgovernment of the people and how can there be experience of them if there be no Government to try them withall but we have experience of much evill for want of Government as b Ibid. I told you before And for that you say your Statists will tell you it is not safe trying experience with States which you illustrate by a similitude of a Physician casting his Patient into a disease to try a cure on him I like it very well in those and being rightly applied it makes much against you and the toleration you plead for for we have found it by wofull experience that some politick Mountebankes have made a perillous experiment upon our State by connivence at and pressing for a toleration of many erroneous and some very hereticall Sects the cure whereof the longer it is delayed will be more difficult and more dangerous to the soules of the people in whom errour and heresie spread and eat like a canker or gangrene as in the Greeke 2 Tim. 2.17 SECT XVIII The Toleration desired by Mr. Saltm neither safe nor sound opposite to the minde of Paul 1 Cor. 1.10 Gal. 5.10.12 Of the comparison of the two ambitious Brethren to ten more humble and moderate The Presbytery not proved by Magistrates though approved by them Of the pretended truth of Sectaries and of the prescription of Bishops and Independents Smoke Pag. 47. I Would there were more such that is such as would give full scope and libertie to multiplicitie of sects I am sure it is safest and soundest It is safest for there is no such danger in that of crucifying Christ in ignorance or fighting against God and soundest for so they die out most naturally by their owne unsoundnesse without noise and commotion Light In this you have delivered a most unsafe and unsound paradox which is disproved by the experience of former ages and foraine parts but most of all by that of our owne Kingdome within these foure yeeres last past witnesse Mr. Edwards his last Booke the Gangrene which if you were so unpatiall and patient as to read without prejudice or passion you could not patiently review your own writing in this particular Smoke Pag. 47. Oppose with words as Paul did but not with sword and turning the edge of authoritie against us light In this you are opposite to Paul and your selfe both to Paul who expressely presseth to union in minde in judgement in speech 1 Cor. 1.10 and wisheth them cut off who trouble the Church Gal. 5.12 whereas you would have sects to be left to themselves and to your selfe whereas before you would have them let alone to die out most naturally without noise now you would have them opposed with words as Paul did but can there be words of opposition without any noise And for that you say against the coercion or execution by the sword it is impertinently proposed to the Presbytery who take not upon them to turne the edge of authoritie any way and prejudiciall to the prudence and power of Magistrates as if they knew not when to use it unlesse they were admonished and moved by others unto it or might not use it against disturbers of the publique peace of Church and State Smoke Pag. 48. But how came you by such plentie as ten of the better sort for two of the worse Light There meeds none other answ to this quest then to repeat your words and mine aright Your selfe said * See my Examination of the New Querie Sect. 10. p. 34. I question not but some Presbyterians may be like the ten yet there are others like the two brethren who strive who should be the greatest To which mine Answer is If we keepe the proportion you brought in and make application accordingly we may say for two ambitious Presbyterians it is like there may be ten that are more modestly and humbly minded then to affect such a preeminence above their brethren Smoke Pag. 48. Indeed you are able to prove by the Magistrate that Presbytery is some of it Christs way that is an argument of power not of Scripture Light How farre the Presbyteriall government is Christs way is sufficiently set forth by the forecited Authour who hath professedly handled it but who I pray you offers to prove by the Magistracy that the Presbytery is Christs way they may prove it to the Magistrate but to doe it by the Magistrate is neither undertaken nor required by any Smoke Pag. 49. We had rather be a few with truth then a multitude against it Light If that were your minde you would rather close with Presbyterians whom you cannot deny to be sound and Orthodox in all matters of faith and godlinesse then with so many extravagant Sectaries who are so contradictory both to the Scripture and to themselves in their opposite Tenets that there must needs be very much untruth in

occasioned me to make such an amends for it as now I must doe In the last lease of your Quere when you had brought in your reasons for retarding the Governement you bring in two objections and make Answers to them the former is this c New Quere p. 7. Ob. 1. But the Temple was builded with all speed in Nehemiahs time and Haggai cals to the building Is it time c. Hag. 1.4 Before I bring in my Reply to your Answer I must minde you of a mistake in your single sheet which though it be but short is lyable to a very just exception for an errour in Story and you should have heard of it sooner from me but that I observed it not my selfe untill I found I was misguided by your allegation for I tooke it upon trust from you because I did not suspect you would misalledge any thing which did no way conduce unto your cause as the time of the building of the Temple doth not now though the errour were originally yours the correction may be mine which you may better receive from me then I might take misprision from you you say the Temple was built in Nehemiahs time but the truth is it was not as you affirme built in but before Nehemiahs time for the foundation of it was laide in the second yeare of Darius Hag. 2.10.17 i. in the yeere of the world 3452. 519 yeers before the Incarnation of Christ and it was finished in the sixth yeere of Darius Ezra 6.15 that is in the yeare of the world 3456. 515 yeers before Christs Incarnation but that building of Nehemiah was the building of the wals of Jerusalem Nehem. 2.17 18 19. and this was in the yeere of the world 3527. about 444. yeeres before the birth of the Messias this worke about the wals was a worke but of 52. dayes Nehem 6.15 the former about the Temple lasted about 4. yeeres as from the Scriptures forealledged may be inferred Now for your Answer it is this Yea but the materiall patterne was more clearely left and knowne then the Gospel patternes the other were more in the letter and these more in the spirit now there must be a proving of all things else there may be more haste then good speed as the Temple may be built by a false patterne as well as by a true and then better no building then no right Cedar to build withall This is all for which you challenge my silence and whereas you intimate some soliditie in it which I was not so well able to deale with as with the other part of your Answer Truly Sr. I neither had nor have any such opinion of it it seemed to me at first and it doth so now upon the review to be an intricate perplexed and confused jumbling of Metaphoricall and literall expressions together and not more darke for lack of light then weake for want of strength to that purpose for which it was framed and therefore I thought it more fit for a tacit preterition then for an expresse examination But if you will have this rather you shall have it and so I say unto it First that if the patterne were more cleare for building the Temple then the Gospel patterne for the setting up of a Church-Government why are you so confident and peremptory and punctuall for your Gospel patterne Secondly Why tell you us of Gospel patterns in the plurall number is there any more then one patterne of Government in the Gospel if so though the Independent patterne be yeelded to be a Gospel patterne which cannot be proved the Presbyterian may be so too for if there be more then one that rather then any other may be allowed to be another Thirdly when you say the other were more in the letter these more in the spirit what is your meaning by these words were there more formes and patternes of the Temple then one if there were why doe you not speake more clearely to the point of difference betwixt them if not why say you they were more in the letter and when you say these Gospel patterns are more in the spirit I would know whether they be written or not written if they be written they are as much in the letter as the other if they be not written how can you tell they be Gospel patterns Fourthly whereas you say The Temple may be builded by a false patterne if you meane it of the materiall Temple you deny the clearenesse of the patterne which before you professed And Fifthly When you say The Temple may be builded by a false patterne as well as by a true if you meane it of the materiall Temple in Ezra's time what is that to the Gospel Government in or since our Saviours time or if any thing it is to contradict your selfe who make the Temple patterne so cleare that there is no danger of a false patterne of misguidance If you meane it of the Government of the Gospel why doe you so confound what in the beginning of your Answer to the Objection you pretend to distinguish to wit the materiall Temple and the Evangelicall order of the Church Lastly whereas you say Better no building at all then no right Cedar to build withall what 's your meaning by this metaphor Cedar was the matter to build with not the patterne whereby the building was to be formed and set together which was the thing whereof you would make the Reader beleeve you made a fit comparison and shewed a materiall difference why the building of the Temple might be hastened in Ezra's time and yet the setting up of Government should be delayed in our time for which you have said nothing either to declare or assure what you tooke upon you to illustrate and make good unto your Reader whom I require now againe to judge betwixt us whether this passage of your Quere were not better omitted by me then remembred by you to put me to make such an Answer unto it as I have done SECT XXII Of staying for the Spirit to give light of instruction to the reformation of the Church Smoke Pag. 52. IS not that a very Gospel way to stay for the Spirits coming into the servants of the Lord take heed of denying inspired disciples you know it is a part of the fulfilling of the great Prophecie Act. 2. Indeed some of the Prelates many of them being uninspired themselves and having little of the spirit or none would needs say therefore that all inspirations and spirituall inlightnings were ended in the Church because ended in them and because they were so carnall themselves they thought none was spirituall and you remember how they made lawes even against the spirit in prayer Light First I confesse it is a Gospel way to stay for the spirits coming into the servants of the Lord the Apostles were commanded by our Saviour not to depart from Ierusalem but to waite there for the promise of the Father Act. 1.4 and they did so and there the

Holy Ghost came upon them Act. 2.3 And so the Prophecy of Ioel of pouring out the spirit in the last dayes Ioel 2.28 was fulfilled and is so implied by Peter Act. 2. vers 16 17. Secondly by the last dayes is not to be understood our present Age 1645 yeers after our Saviours first coming and God knows how many before his second coming by the last dayes may be understood not precisely those which are next to the worlds end but after times as in the prophecie of Iacob Gen. 19.1 which sometimes may be further as in that of Iacob and Ioel sometimes neerer hand as the Prophecie of Peter that there should come in the last dayes scoffers 2 Pet. 2.3 which was fulfilled and so is recorded in the last of the Apostolicall Epistles for in the 17. 18. verses of Iudes Epistle saith he Beloved remember the words which were spoken before of the Apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ how that they told you there should be mockers in the last times who should walke after their owne ungodly lusts but the dayes of the Gospel are called the last times because after that is brought forth we must looke for no more changes of Religion and the manner of Gods worship as there was before in Moses time from what was in use before with the Patriarchs and since Christs time from the Ceremonials of Moses Thirdly though I doe not nor dare put limits to the Spirit which is free as the winde that bloweth where it listeth Ioh. 3.8 and doe acknowledge and blesse God for it that there is 〈◊〉 spirit of grace and supplications Zach. 1● 10 poured out upon many of Gods people and not onely upon Preachers but also upon divers others which are not and that it was a wicked part in divers of the Prelates for all on my knowledge were not guilty of it to stint the Ministers of the Gospel as they did by the 〈◊〉 forme in their Conan which was rather a bidding invitation to prayer then a prayer it solfe Yet fourthly since the Apostle Paul foretels of the later times that there shall be 〈◊〉 spirits and dectrines of Devils speaking lyes in hypocrisie 1 Tin● 4.1.12 and John the Apostle gives a caveat against credulity in this case Beloved beleeve not every spirit but try the spirits whether they be of God 1 Ioh. 4.1 and that Christians are admonished to try all things 1 Thes 5.21 and the Church of Ephesus is commended for trying those who said they were Apostles and were not and found them lyors Revel 2.2 and the tryall is to be made by the law and by the testimonie of the Scripture and if they speake not according to this it is because there is no light in them Esa 20.8 And since I have read of many horrid and abominable things committed upon pretence of revelation of the spirit Lastly since the Government of the Church is not a matter of private inspiration but of publique direction and use to the whole Church and that the Word of God as a standing ru●e is to give us directions in Gospel dispensations I dare not expect where that speakes nothing that the defect will be made out or made up with the whisperings of a private spirst especially against the concurrent judgement of the most Orthodox Divines of the Reformed Churches SECT XXIII Of expedition or delay in setting up of Government Whether Moses and Christ the Iewish and Christian state be so contrary that there is no conformity betweene them Smoke Pag. 54. ANd now after all this discourse and ravelings out of time from Iohns Sermon c. what have you gained not that the Government was so one 〈◊〉 the● you have proved much to my advantage and a clourer and fuller computation then I did the contrary so as you have beene taking some learned paines if you well observe and the Reader will observe you to prove that the Government as first was not suddenly cast into a 〈◊〉 or brought forth in practice which is the very thing I aimed at and truly your paines in it have beene more then mine and I thanke you for it Light I must recall you to our former entercourse to give light for the clearing this exception a New Quere p. 7. you bring in a second Objection against the delay of it thus But vica beresies and sehismes grew too fast and you answer it thus b Ibid. p. 8. so they might have done from Iohns first Sermon to Pauls Epistles and the sending of the Spirit but yet you see there was no Government till after settled upon the people of God And not shewing how long after I calculated the time for you and you are pleased in the end of the precedent Paragraph to commend my paines as more exact then yours and to thanke me for it but yet withall you make as if I had ravelled into time to prove your Tenet against mine own wherein I shall easily disprove you For you brought in the putting off the government from Iohn Baptists time untill Pauls Epistles and the sending of the Spirit where you confusedly shuffle things together which should be carefully distinguished and if you meane it of the time from c See mine Examin of the New Quere p. 39. Iohns preaching to the pouring out of the Spirit at the Feast of Pentecost it is but five yeares if to the first of Pauls Epistles but 21 if to the last 29 yeares and before the end of that Epistle that Government was written which we finde in Scripture Now take which of these times you will and compare it to our time and State and it will not serve for any cause or ground of adjournment or putting off the Church Government to a further Date as you would have it For if that Government which the Scripture hath laid down be offered to acceptation and establishment shall we take 29 yeares time or 21 yeares time or 5 yeares time before we will admit of it especially since we have been for many yeares together conversant in the Scriptures where it is founded and have had the practice of it exemplified unto us in many Reformed Churches for 100 yeares together so that though 5 or 21 or 29 yeares were to be taken for a long time in respect of the first age of the Church before the government of it was setled upon the people of God and yet it was but a while the progresse of the Gospel duely weighed it makes nothing for the delay of Government you drive at and so disappointing your purpose which was out of that instance to make some shew for the slacknesse in Government which you desire I pleaded not your cause but the truths and mine own in prosecution of it against your exception I shall be willing in some other way to doe you a courtesie and to deserve your thankes but expect not I should be so unfaithfull or fickle or simple as to desert the defence I have