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spirit_n father_n lord_n see_v 5,685 5 3.6798 3 false
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ID Title Author Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication) STC Words Pages
A85314 Separation examined: or, a treatise vvherein the grounds for separation from the ministry and churches of England are weighed, and found too light. The practise proved to be not onely unwarrantable, but likewise so hurtful to the churches, that church-reformation cannot with any comfort go forward, so long as such separation is tolerated. Also an humble request presented to the congregational divines, that since the differences between them and the classical-divines are very small they would please to strike in with the classical-divines in carrying on the worke of reformation, before the inundation of these corrupt opinions, have destroyed both ordinances and religion. / By Gi. Firmin minister to the church in Shalford in essex. Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697. 1652 (1652) Wing F964; Thomason E656_12; ESTC R206624 107,263 123

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separation_n examine_v or_o a_o treatise_n wherein_o the_o ground_n for_o separation_n from_o the_o ministry_n and_o church_n of_o england_n be_v weigh_v and_o find_v too_o light_a the_o practice_n prove_v to_o be_v not_o only_o unwarrantable_a but_o likewise_o so_o hurtful_a to_o the_o church_n that_o church-reformation_n can_v with_o any_o comfort_n go_v forward_o so_o long_o as_o such_o separation_n be_v tolerate_v also_o a_o humble_a request_n present_v to_o the_o congregational_a divine_n that_o since_o the_o difference_n between_o they_o and_o the_o classical-divines_a be_v very_o small_a they_o will_v please_v to_o strike_v in_o with_o the_o classical-divines_a in_o carry_v on_o the_o work_n of_o reformation_n before_o the_o inundation_n of_o these_o corrupt_a opinion_n have_v destroy_v both_o ordinance_n and_o religion_n by_o gi._n firmin_n minister_n to_o the_o church_n in_o shalford_n in_o essex_n 1_o cor._n 1.10_o now_o i_o beseech_v you_o brethren_z by_o the_o name_n of_o our_o lord_n jesus_n christ_n that_o you_o all_o speak_v the_o same_o thing_n and_o that_o there_o be_v no_o schism_n among_o you_o judicabit_fw-la autem_fw-la &_o eosqui_fw-la schismata_fw-la operantur_fw-la qui_fw-la sunt_fw-la immanes_a non_fw-la habentes_fw-la dei_fw-la dilectionem_fw-la suamque_fw-la utilitatem_fw-la potius_fw-la considerantes_fw-la quàm_fw-la unitatem_fw-la ecclesiae_fw-la propter_fw-la modicas_fw-la &_o quaslibet_fw-la causas_fw-la magnum_fw-la &_o gloriosum_fw-la corpus_fw-la christi_fw-la conscindunt_fw-la &_o dividunt_fw-la etc._n etc._n irenae_n l._n 4._o c._n 62._o cavenda_fw-la sunt_fw-la autem_fw-la fratres_fw-la dilectissimi_fw-la non_fw-la solum_fw-la quae_fw-la sunt_fw-la aperta_fw-la &_o manifesta_fw-la sed_fw-la &_o astutae_fw-la fraudis_fw-la subtilitate_fw-la fallentia_fw-la etc._n etc._n haeteses_fw-la invenit_fw-la &_o schismata_fw-la quibus_fw-la subverteret_fw-la fidem_fw-la veritatem_fw-la corrumperet_fw-la scinderet_fw-la unitatem_fw-la 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and_o church_n in_o england_n let_v we_o examine_v the_o ground_n why_o these_o man_n separate_v from_o these_o minister_n and_o church_n i_o conceive_v their_o ground_n may_v be_v refer_v to_o one_o of_o these_o head_n either_o to_o the_o minister_n either_o to_o or_o worship_n either_o to_o or_o the_o congregation_n either_o to_o or_o the_o place_n of_o meeting_n if_o there_o be_v any_o thing_n else_o that_o can_v so_o well_o be_v reduce_v to_o one_o of_o these_o yet_o i_o be_o sure_a i_o shall_v meet_v with_o it_o before_o i_o have_v do_v for_o the_o minister_n they_o be_v indeed_o make_v the_o dung_n of_o england_n who_o be_v more_o scorn_v than_o they_o especial_o the_o presbyterial_a man_n be_v they_o never_o so_o holy_a or_o learned_a whether_o there_o be_v just_a cause_n in_o respect_n of_o man_n i_o leave_v it_o to_o god_n to_o judge_v i_o be_o sure_a when_o minister_n be_v in_o honour_n we_o find_v the_o word_n have_v good_a effect_n but_o since_o they_o come_v to_o be_v thus_o scorn_v little_a good_a have_v be_v do_v i_o deny_v not_o but_o god_n may_v have_v a_o just_a quarrel_n against_o we_o and_o give_v i_o leave_v without_o offence_n to_o propound_v the_o reason_n why_o 1_o the_o first_o i_o have_v rather_o conceal_v because_o i_o shall_v seem_v to_o spy_v out_o a_o mote_n in_o my_o father_n and_o brethren_n eye_n when_o i_o have_v a_o beam_n in_o my_o own_o but_o therefore_o i_o rather_o propound_v it_o as_o i_o hear_v it_o from_o a_o reverend_n and_o judicious_a divine_a a_o man_n of_o a_o gracious_a and_o moderate_a spirit_n mr._n nathaniel_n rogers_n in_o new_a england_n i_o be_v talk_v with_o he_o there_o when_o the_o news_n come_v of_o the_o covenant_n that_o england_n and_o scotland_n enter_v into_o the_o thing_n please_v he_o and_o all_o our_o
why_o do_v you_o not_o communicate_v with_o they_o in_o those_o ordinance_n which_o be_v pure_a if_o you_o object_n the_o ordinance_n indeed_o be_v pure_a but_o those_o who_o join_v in_o those_o ordinance_n be_v not_o pure_a therefore_o we_o separate_v this_o proper_o belong_v to_o the_o three_o head_n the_o congregation_n i_o shall_v there_o answer_v to_o this_o cavil_v three_o for_o the_o set_n up_o such_o ordinance_n as_o christ_n never_o do_v i_o can_v imagine_v where_o you_o will_v be_v unless_o you_o mean_v infant-baptisme_n and_o sing_v of_o psalm_n for_o i_o find_v these_o be_v speak_v against_o very_o much_o but_o be_v these_o fundamental_a error_n if_o they_o be_v error_n have_v you_o be_v force_v to_o baptise_v your_o infant_n or_o sing_v psalm_n be_v you_o not_o at_o your_o choice_n whether_o you_o will_v or_o not_o do_v not_o many_o people_n sit_v in_o congregation_n and_o not_o sing_v at_o all_o not_o but_o that_o i_o conceive_v church-member_n ought_v to_o be_v regard_v in_o this_o and_o call_v to_o a_o account_n though_o they_o have_v need_n be_v handle_v tender_o if_o otherwise_o they_o seem_v to_o be_v godly_a yet_o their_o be_v hopeful_o godly_a be_v not_o a_o sufficient_a ground_n to_o keep_v they_o from_o church-censure_n unless_o all_o circumstance_n be_v consider_v they_o appear_v to_o be_v true_o conscientious_a man_n of_o humble_a spirit_n not_o self-willed_a and_o desire_v forbearance_n and_o patience_n in_o clear_v of_o the_o point_n than_o i_o know_v minister_n will_v bear_v with_o such_o a_o long_a time_n but_o to_o have_v person_n run_v into_o these_o error_n and_o let_v alone_o as_o if_o they_o be_v thing_n of_o no_o concernment_n true_o by_o what_o rule_v you_o will_v loose_v two_o ordinance_n you_o may_v loose_v four_o official_a preach_n be_v cry_v down_o and_o church_n discipline_n also_o by_o the_o erastians_n no_o outward_a form_n of_o government_n which_o i_o suppose_v be_v the_o scope_n of_o mr._n dell_n sermon_n before_o the_o parliament_n and_o so_o i_o think_v it_o be_v that_o which_o rob._n purnell_n in_o his_o short_a prophecy_n of_o the_o down-fall_a of_o presbytery_n and_o independency_n aim_v at_o that_o there_o shall_v be_v no_o external_a form_n of_o church-government_n but_o only_o the_o government_n of_o the_o spirit_n within_o and_o for_o all_o ordinance_n some_o be_v above_o they_o who_o have_v be_v member_n of_o congregationall_a church_n insomuch_o that_o when_o the_o brethren_n come_v to_o choose_v a_o officer_n a_o mason_n rise_v up_o and_o oppose_v it_o profess_v he_o live_v immediate_o upon_o christ_n and_o he_o own_v none_o neither_o be_v he_o alone_o i_o believe_v but_o if_o you_o take_v away_o all_o the_o ordinance_n how_o we_o shall_v know_v there_o be_v a_o god_n in_o the_o world_n i_o know_v not_o to_o be_v sure_a we_o shall_v not_o know_v by_o the_o deal_n of_o these_o man_n i_o know_v so_o much_o by_o they_o that_o one_o have_v as_o good_a deal_n with_o the_o indian_n as_o with_o some_o of_o they_o so_o that_o in_o conclusion_n we_o shall_v have_v brave_a church_n without_o ordinance_n as_o for_o infant-baptisme_n this_o be_v not_o a_o place_n for_o i_o to_o prove_v it_o to_o be_v a_o ordinance_n of_o god_n what_o the_o adversary_n can_v say_v be_v sum_v up_o in_o mr._n tomb_n a_o man_n i_o hear_v esteem_v true_o godly_a on_o all_o hand_n and_o for_o his_o learning_n he_o show_v himself_o to_o be_v a_o scholar_n it_o be_v pity_v the_o man_n part_n be_v defile_v in_o maintain_v such_o a_o wretched_a opinion_n as_o mr._n hooker_n call_v it_o i_o confess_v master_n tombes_n ability_n be_v such_o that_o i_o may_v hold_v the_o candle_n to_o he_o but_o yet_o let_v i_o say_v this_o i_o can_v easy_o discern_v mr._n tomb_n to_o dispute_v more_o like_o a_o sophister_n than_o a_o christian_a that_o do_v desire_v to_o see_v truth_n mr._n martial_n tell_v he_o and_o not_o without_o cause_n 247._o in_o his_o defence_n etc._n etc._n p._n 247._o your_o faculty_n be_v far_o better_a in_o darken_v slur_v and_o plunder_v the_o argument_n of_o your_o adversary_n then_o in_o make_v good_a your_o own_o it_o be_v the_o happiness_n mr._n martial_n have_v above_o many_o that_o in_o his_o preach_n and_o so_o in_o print_v he_o can_v convey_v his_o mind_n to_o his_o hearer_n or_o reader_n so_o as_o the_o weak_a may_v understand_v how_o then_o his_o argument_n come_v to_o be_v so_o dark_a to_o so_o learned_a a_o man_n as_o mr._n tomb_n i_o can_v conceive_v if_o he_o have_v deal_v candid_o but_o when_o master_n tomb_n have_v answer_v mr._n martial_n cotton_n baxter_n cobbet_n hooker_n holmes_n geree_n etc._n etc._n then_o we_o shall_v bethink_v ourselves_o of_o new_a argument_n but_o these_o worthy_n have_v maintain_v that_o ordinance_n with_o that_o strength_n that_o i_o believe_v the_o contrary_a opinion_n will_v rare_o or_o never_o take_v with_o a_o intelligent_a head_n and_o a_o sober_a godly_a heart_n for_o sing_v of_o psalm_n this_o be_v not_o a_o place_n neither_o to_o follow_v that_o question_n whether_o it_o be_v a_o ordinance_n of_o god_n i_o never_o hear_v of_o any_o that_o write_v against_o it_o except_o one_o who_o mr._n cotton_n have_v answer_v and_o i_o think_v sufficient_o enough_o when_o master_n cotton_n be_v silence_v than_o we_o shall_v bethink_v ourselves_o concern_v that_o ordinance_n i_o hear_v of_o other_o that_o have_v print_v for_o it_o but_o master_n cotton_v piece_n be_v all_o i_o have_v see_v concern_v that_o subject_n pro_n or_o con_v only_o because_o there_o be_v a_o sectary_n colchester_n in_o colchester_n that_o in_o a_o shop_n scoff_o ask_v i_o to_o what_o purpose_n sing_v of_o psalm_n be_v the_o man_n spirit_n i_o see_v very_o unsavoury_a and_o the_o place_n not_o convenient_a to_o discourse_v i_o give_v he_o no_o answer_n but_o shall_v now_o give_v he_o the_o ground_n that_o lead_v i_o to_o believe_v it_o be_v a_o ordinance_n of_o christ_n and_o let_v he_o confute_v they_o i_o can_v avoid_v it_o but_o i_o must_v touch_v divers_a thing_n that_o have_v be_v touch_v before_o but_o what_o i_o do_v shall_v be_v very_o brief_a 1._o if_o sing_v of_o psalm_n be_v a_o ordinance_n under_o the_o old_a testament_n and_o not_o repeal_v in_o the_o new_a testament_n be_v not_o typical_a or_o ceremonial_a etc._n etc._n then_o it_o be_v also_o a_o ordinance_n under_o the_o new_a testament_n but_o the_o antecedent_n be_v true_a ergo_fw-la the_o consequent_a be_v true_a for_o the_o antecedent_n that_o it_o be_v a_o ordinance_n then_o the_o adversary_n deny_v not_o and_z as_o other_o ordinance_n which_o then_o be_v in_o use_n and_o not_o repeal_v as_o prayer_n preach_v etc._n etc._n be_v ordinance_n now_o under_o the_o new_a testament_n why_o shall_v not_o sing_v of_o psalm_n also_o be_v continue_v a_o ordinance_n still_o they_o object_n sing_v of_o psalm_n with_o the_o voice_n be_v but_o a_o type_n of_o sing_v psalm_n with_o the_o heart_n i_o answer_v if_o indeed_o it_o be_v typical_a than_o it_o be_v some_o ground_n to_o believe_v it_o be_v repeal_v we_o read_v your_o dictate_v but_o we_o read_v no_o proof_n give_v we_o your_o text_n to_o prove_v it_o be_v typical_a else_o your_o dictate_v will_n not_o take_v with_o we_o that_o which_o make_v i_o strong_o to_o believe_v the_o contrary_n be_v this_o that_o paul_n and_o silas_n when_o none_o but_o they_o be_v in_o the_o prison_n yet_o they_o sing_v act._n 16.25_o now_o this_o be_v ill_o do_v of_o they_o if_o it_o be_v typical_a yet_o to_o keep_v it_o in_o practice_n when_o they_o be_v alone_o however_o in_o other_o point_n and_o ceremony_n the_o apostle_n do_v condescend_v as_o far_o as_o they_o can_v to_o the_o jew_n 19_o epia_n 19_o give_v the_o ceremony_n be_v now_o dead_a as_o augustine_n say_v a_o honourable_a burial_n yet_o that_o paul_n and_o silas_n be_v now_o alone_o without_o jew_n have_v no_o such_o temptation_n but_o may_v keep_v their_o liberty_n shall_v practice_v a_o typical_a ordinance_n believe_v it_o who_o will_v for_o i_o can_v when_o i_o have_v frame_v my_o answer_n look_v into_o mr._n cotton_n i_o perceive_v that_o he_o mention_n this_o of_o their_o sing_n in_o answer_n to_o this_o cavil_v 24._o p._n 24._o and_o give_v more_o answer_n whither_o i_o refer_v the_o reader_n 2_o the_o second_o ground_n that_o move_v i_o be_v the_o express_a scripture_n ephes_n 5.19_o &_o col._n 3.16_o speak_v one_o to_o another_o in_o psalm_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d i.e._n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d say_v beza_n as_o the_o word_n be_v use_v ephes_n 4._o ult_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d forgive_a one_o another_o so_o in_o col._n 3._o 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d our_o transtation_n there_o render_v it_o one_o another_o loquentes_fw-la inter_fw-la vos_fw-la
witty_a speech_n of_o he_o let_v the_o elder_n keep_v the_o key_n and_o the_o people_n the_o keyclog_n it_o prove_v so_o too_o often_o what_o our_o divine_n have_v say_v about_o it_o be_v well_o know_v i_o think_v they_o have_v batter_v this_o notion_n pretty_a well_o augustine_n sometime_o be_v quote_v for_o this_o opinion_n but_o i_o be_o confident_a it_o be_v never_o in_o augustine_n thought_n in_o evan._n joan._n tract_n 50._o tract_n 124._o i_o be_o mistake_v if_o he_o be_v not_o rather_o for_o the_o catholic_n church_n by_o his_o word_n especial_o in_o the_o latter_a place_n quote_v not_o mention_v what_o other_o divine_n have_v speak_v there_o be_v two_o or_o three_o thing_n that_o have_v make_v i_o doubt_v of_o this_o so_o as_o i_o never_o do_v thorough_o close_a with_o this_o notion_n when_o i_o be_v but_o a_o private_a member_n of_o a_o church_n 1._o that_o which_o be_v the_o primum_fw-la subjectum_fw-la be_v the_o proprium_fw-la subjectum_fw-la none_o doubt_n of_o this_o proprium_fw-la subjectum_fw-la est_fw-la quod_fw-la cum_fw-la svo_fw-la accident_n reciprocatur_fw-la animal_n est_fw-la proprium_fw-la subjectum_fw-la sensus_fw-la homo_fw-la risus_fw-la hence_o we_o say_v omnis_fw-la homo_fw-la est_fw-la risibilis_fw-la &_o omne_fw-la risibile_fw-la est_fw-la homo_fw-la this_o be_v axioma_fw-la 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d but_o every_o axiom_n that_o be_v 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d do_v include_v in_o it_o the_o rule_n 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d 〈◊〉_d where_o the_o predicate_a be_v true_a de_fw-fr omni_fw-la subjecto_fw-la omni_fw-la loco_fw-la omni_fw-la tempore_fw-la this_o be_v true_a of_o animal_n &_o sensus_fw-la so_o it_o must_v be_v true_a of_o the_o power_n of_o the_o key_n and_o the_o fraternity_n omni_fw-la tempore_fw-la but_o if_o we_o find_v the_o power_n of_o the_o key_n exercise_v before_o there_o be_v a_o fraternity_n than_o there_o be_v some_o other_o subject_n before_o the_o fraternity_n when_o paul_n come_v to_o corinth_n he_o preach_v authoritatiuè_fw-la ergo_fw-la there_o be_v the_o power_n of_o the_o key_n in_o some_o subject_n but_o the_o fratemity_n be_v nonens_a at_o this_o time_n how_o then_o can_v they_o be_v the_o subject_n those_o who_o be_v the_o effect_n of_o the_o power_n of_o the_o key_n be_v not_o the_o first_o subject_n that_o be_v clear_a but_o the_o fraternity_n be_v the_o effect_n it_o be_v so_o in_o all_o the_o church_n which_o the_o apostle_n gather_v and_o be_v indeed_o to_o this_o day_n this_o be_v one_o argument_n trouble_v i_o so_o that_o which_o be_v primum_fw-la be_v immediatum_fw-la subjectum_fw-la but_o how_o can_v this_o be_v since_o mediantibus_fw-la apostolis_n and_o so_o now_o mediantibus_fw-la ministris_fw-la the_o fraternity_n be_v make_v the_o elector_n be_v before_o the_o elect_a its_o true_a of_o christ_n who_o elect_v the_o apostle_n and_o give_v to_o they_o the_o key_n from_o who_o by_o a_o continue_a succession_n of_o minister_n still_o the_o fratemity_n be_v make_v but_o have_v not_o the_o power_n of_o the_o key_n have_v some_o effect_n there_o have_v not_o be_v a_o fraternity_n to_o choose_v a_o officer_n though_o they_o be_v now_o in_o time_n before_o he_o who_o they_o now_o elect_v yet_o they_o be_v not_o before_o he_o or_o they_o quâ_fw-la fratres_fw-la who_o by_o the_o power_n of_o the_o key_n in_o the_o ministry_n make_v they_o capable_a to_o choose_v a_o officer_n therefore_o the_o power_n of_o the_o key_n be_v in_o some_o subject_n before_o they_o beside_o election_n be_v no_o part_n of_o the_o power_n of_o the_o key_n 20._o doma_fw-la log_n p._n 461._o kecke_n sy_v log_n l._n 2._o c._n 20._o therefore_o to_o argue_v the_o people_n elect_v ergo_fw-la they_o be_v the_o first_o subject_n etc._n etc._n be_v fallacia_fw-la non_fw-la causae_fw-la procansâ_fw-la causae_fw-la nomen_fw-la hic_fw-la usurpat_fw-la ur_fw-la pro_fw-la quo_fw-la vis_fw-la argumento_fw-la take_v that_o to_o be_v a_o part_n of_o the_o power_n which_o be_v not_o 2_o if_o so_o that_o which_o be_v primum_fw-la est_fw-la absolutum_fw-la subjectum_fw-la cvi_fw-la accidens_fw-la absolutè_fw-la sint_fw-la ulla_fw-la limitatione_n partis_fw-la inharet_fw-la sic_fw-la animal_n est_fw-la absolutum_fw-la subjectum_fw-la sensus_fw-la adeoque_fw-la visus_fw-la &_o auditus_fw-la ideoque_fw-la tantum_fw-la animal_n dicitur_fw-la rectê_fw-la videre_fw-la &_o audire_fw-la oculus_fw-la non_fw-la videt_fw-la propriè_fw-la quia_fw-la non_fw-la est_fw-la animal_n quando_fw-la ergo_fw-la oculus_fw-la dicitur_fw-la videre_fw-la id_fw-la non_fw-la subjectiuè_fw-la intelligendum_fw-la est_fw-la sed_fw-la instrumentaliter_fw-la quod_fw-la animal_n videat_fw-la per_fw-la oculum_fw-la to_o apply_v this_o to_o our_o case_n the_o power_n of_o the_o key_n be_v in_o the_o whole_a body_n so_o the_o power_n of_o preach_v &c._n &c._n there_o be_v the_o power_n subjectiuè_fw-fr &_o propriè_fw-la so_o that_o if_o we_o ask_v who_o preach_v to_o day_n we_o must_v answer_v properly_z and_o subjective_o the_o people_n preach_v but_o instrumental_o only_o the_o pastor_n preach_v so_o for_o the_o administration_n of_o the_o sacrament_n this_o be_v very_o harsh_a hence_o again_o because_o animal_n videt_fw-la if_o a_o man_n die_v or_o beast_n the_o eye_n which_o be_v the_o instrument_n of_o see_v except_v it_o may_v be_v the_o dissipation_n of_o the_o animal_n spirit_n else_o as_o a_o organ_n it_o remain_v entire_a in_o the_o coat_n humour_n and_o optic_a nerve_n but_o yet_o it_o see_v not_o so_o it_o seem_v a_o minister_n in_o case_n his_o body_n the_o people_n shall_v die_v he_o be_v but_o the_o instrument_n of_o their_o preach_n he_o can_v preach_v no_o more_o this_o be_v strange_a how_o do_v they_o preach_v out_o of_o their_o own_o body_n ordinaty_o if_o the_o man_n die_v and_o only_a woman_n and_o child_n be_v leave_v the_o officer_n have_v lose_v his_o preach_n and_o can_v preach_v to_o they_o authoritative_o because_o the_o fraternity_n in_o who_o the_o power_n be_v subjectiuè_a be_v dead_a 3_o i_o have_v observe_v that_o seven_o have_v be_v esteem_v enough_o to_o make_v a_o church_n suppose_v now_o one_o of_o these_o shall_v offend_v another_o of_o the_o seven_o he_o must_v deal_v with_o he_o if_o he_o will_v not_o hear_v he_o must_v take_v two_o more_o here_o be_v four_o of_o the_o seven_o if_o he_o will_v not_o hear_v they_o tell_v the_o church_n that_o be_v the_o three_o leave_v the_o rest_n be_v party_n some_o to_o prove_v that_o mat._n 16._o to_o thou_o i_o give_v the_o key_n must_v be_v mean_v the_o fraternity_n say_v that_o to_o thou_o here_o be_v the_o same_o with_o mat._n 18._o but_o this_o be_v somewhat_o doubt_v for_o that_o in_o mat._n 18._o may_v well_o be_v mean_v of_o a_o particular_a church_n 278._o the_o visible_a church_n be_v here_o mean_v say_v mr._n hoober_n sur._n p._n 278._o but_o in_o this_o place_n the_o church_n must_v be_v mean_v of_o the_o catholic_a visible_a church_n for_o it_o must_v be_v such_o a_o church_n as_o 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be_v invest_v with_o power_n to_o exercise_v discipline_n and_o indeed_o as_o the_o condition_n of_o england_n stand_v there_o be_v need_n of_o a_o civil_a power_n to_o back_v they_o the_o case_n be_v not_o now_o as_o in_o the_o primitive_a time_n 2_o you_o must_v put_v a_o difference_n between_o church_n new_a erect_n and_o these_o in_o england_n which_o have_v be_v church_n so_o long_o when_o i_o raise_v a_o house_n new_a from_o the_o ground_n i_o may_v then_o do_v as_o i_o please_v but_o if_o i_o be_v mend_v of_o a_o old_a house_n i_o must_v do_v as_o well_o as_o i_o can_v repair_n by_o degree_n 3_o what_o will_v you_o have_v do_v with_o all_o the_o rest_n excommunicate_v they_o that_o be_v a_o piece_n of_o work_n indeed_o and_o beside_o there_o be_v a_o great_a deal_n of_o work_n to_o do_v before_o we_o come_v to_o that_o it_o may_v be_v many_o will_v not_o be_v find_v contumacious_a nay_o you_o see_v they_o do_v separate_v they_o from_o the_o lord_n supper_n and_o divers_a begin_v to_o look_v something_o more_o narrow_o to_o baptism_n 4_o how_o many_o corrupt_a member_n do_v you_o find_v in_o the_o church_n of_o corinth_n and_o galatia_n for_o the_o latter_a what_o a_o change_n be_v there_o make_v in_o their_o affection_n towards_o paul_n 287._o gillesp_n aar_n rod._n 287._o who_o close_o do_v they_o cleave_v to_o those_o judaize_v zelots_n who_o turn_v they_o away_o almost_o to_o another_o gospel_n insomuch_o that_o though_o paul_n wish_v those_o seducer_n be_v cut_v off_o gal._n 5.12_o i_o e._n by_o excommunication_n yet_o he_o do_v not_o peremptory_o command_v it_o renitente_fw-la ecclesiâ_fw-la the_o church_n of_o corinth_n have_v drink_v in_o vile_a error_n the_o woman_n it_o shall_v seem_v disorderly_a will_v speak_v in_o the_o church_n and_o for_o member_n 2_o cor._n 12.20_o 21._o you_o may_v conceive_v by_o the_o sin_n there_o mention_v what_o they_o be_v many_o of_o they_o ch._n 13.2_o 289._o aar_n rod_n 289._o paul_n indeed_o say_v he_o will_v not_o spare_v they_o this_o place_n master_n gillespie_n think_v give_v light_a to_o ch._n 10._o &_o 6._o when_o your_o obedience_n be_v fulfil_v our_o minister_n debarresuch_o from_o the_o supper_n 5_o if_o you_o do_v not_o thus_o separate_v from_o they_o they_o may_v do_v more_o towards_o the_o reform_n of_o their_o congregation_n but_o you_o weaken_v their_o hand_n as_o i_o shall_v touch_v hereafter_o 6_o but_o what_o do_v you_o mean_v by_o visible_a saint_n what_o be_v require_v or_o how_o will_v you_o judge_v of_o one_o what_o will_v you_o have_v they_o real_a saint_n i_o suppose_v you_o do_v not_o think_v so_o cross_n to_o the_o text_n the_o floor_n the_o drag-net_n etc._n etc._n what_o will_v you_o have_v such_o as_o by_o the_o exact_a scrutiny_n that_o can_v be_v make_v we_o may_v judge_v to_o be_v saint_n real_o i_o desire_n your_o text_n for_o this_o do_v the_o apostle_n do_v thus_o when_o they_o baptize_v any_o sure_o they_o must_v either_o judge_v by_o a_o apostolical_a spirit_n but_o we_o see_v they_o be_v mistake_v if_o they_o do_v so_o or_o else_o they_o must_v stay_v a_o good_a while_n and_o try_v man_n winter_n they_o 5._o the_o church_n after_o take_v more_o time_n but_o they_o do_v not_o come_v to_o that_o exact_a scrutiny_n etc._n etc._n bell._n enter_v to_o 2._o l._n 2._o c._n 1._o s_o 5._o and_o summer_n they_o as_o we_o say_v before_o they_o do_v judge_v of_o their_o saint-ship_n but_o this_o they_o do_v not_o do_v they_o baptize_v they_o quick_o such_o member_n as_o the_o apostle_n admit_v we_o may_v or_o else_o give_v we_o text_n to_o the_o contrary_n i_o have_v touch_v this_o in_o another_o tract_n desire_v that_o those_o who_o be_v for_o such_o strictness_n in_o member_n will_v give_v we_o their_o ground_n remember_v doctor_n ames_n falsum_fw-la est_fw-la internas_fw-la virtutes_fw-la a_o nobis_fw-la requiri_fw-la ut_fw-la aliquis_fw-la sit_fw-la in_o ecclesiâ_fw-la quoad_fw-la visibilem_fw-la ejus_fw-la statum_fw-la the_o four_o proposal_n we_o will_v have_v power_n in_o admission_n of_o member_n and_o in_o excommunication_n ans_fw-fr for_o admission_n of_o member_n 1_o when_o you_o bring_v proof_n out_o of_o the_o word_n what_o power_n church-member_n have_v exercise_v in_o admission_n of_o member_n i_o hope_v you_o shall_v find_v none_o shall_v debar_v you_o from_o have_v that_o power_n 2_o when_o there_o be_v member_n to_o be_v admit_v who_o never_o be_v church-member_n you_o shall_v find_v it_o grant_v but_o that_o be_v not_o our_o case_n here_o if_o you_o will_v have_v power_n in_o admission_n to_o sacrament_n you_o have_v that_o liberty_n give_v you_o to_o bring_v in_o testimony_n for_o or_o against_o and_o if_o you_o bring_v in_o sufficient_a proof_n against_o person_n you_o shall_v find_v they_o shall_v not_o be_v admit_v thus_o must_v you_o do_v in_o any_o church_n whatever_o if_o any_o good_a christian_a shall_v come_v and_o give_v in_o testimony_n for_o another_o the_o minister_n will_v glad_o receive_v it_o for_o 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vindication_n mr._n edward_n also_o only_o he_o shall_v not_o have_v jumble_v all_o independent_o together_o as_o if_o they_o do_v favour_v such_o vile_a opinion_n he_o shall_v have_v spare_v some_o now_o if_o we_o have_v such_o nursery_n among_o our_o church_n we_o shall_v find_v it_o a_o difficult_a work_n to_o keep_v our_o church_n clear_a some_o of_o these_o curse_a seed_n will_v be_v blow_v into_o the_o garden_n 4_o they_o cause_v church-member_n to_o walk_v irregular_o if_o any_o do_v not_o walk_v as_o they_o shall_v or_o have_v drink_v in_o any_o poison_n if_o now_o the_o brethren_n first_o and_o then_o the_o officer_n come_v to_o deal_v with_o they_o they_o care_v for_o no_o body_n if_o they_o be_v of_o any_o number_n to_o make_v a_o society_n that_o they_o can_v meet_v together_o than_o they_o will_v rend_v away_o and_o so_o meet_v together_o but_o if_o not_o so_o many_o if_o but_o one_o yet_o they_o know_v where_o there_o be_v a_o society_n of_o separatist_n who_o will_v 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people_n be_v no_o such_o friend_n to_o the_o state_n though_o they_o be_v look_v upon_o as_o the_o only_a friend_n the_o state_n have_v it_o will_v appear_v if_o we_o consider_v they_o in_o a_o moral_a or_o political_a respect_n first_o for_o the_o moral_a respect_n the_o strength_n of_o a_o christian_a state_n lie_v in_o have_v christ_n on_o their_o side_n and_o i_o be_o sure_a the_o strength_n of_o our_o state_n lie_v there_o now_o be_v that_o a_o way_n to_o keep_v christ_n on_o our_o side_n to_o tolerate_v those_o who_o seek_v to_o undermine_v that_o whereby_o he_o be_v know_v in_o the_o world_n take_v away_o ordinance_n and_o the_o minister_n who_o be_v appoint_v by_o he_o to_o dispense_v these_o ordinance_n where_o shall_v we_o know_v christ_n but_o these_o labour_n to_o do_v this_o can_v it_o be_v for_o their_o safety_n to_o tolerate_v such_o that_o hinder_v his_o visible_a kingdom_n from_o be_v set_v up_o at_o least_o with_o poor_a comfort_n what_o be_v the_o reason_n that_o 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that_o i_o believe_v there_o will_v be_v no_o difference_n between_o they_o those_o who_o hinder_v christ_n kingdom_n can_v be_v true_a friend_n to_o a_o christian_a civil_a state_n if_o any_o shall_v object_v the_o state_n have_v prosper_v since_o these_o schism_n and_o error_n have_v have_v their_o liberty_n therefore_o god_n do_v witness_n for_o they_o i_o shall_v say_v there_o be_v little_a divinity_n in_o this_o kind_n of_o argue_v viz._n to_o argue_v from_o providence_n to_o the_o maintain_n of_o thing_n cross_v to_o the_o word_n of_o god_n beside_o here_o be_v fallacia_fw-la non_fw-la causae_fw-la pro_fw-la causâ_fw-la for_o next_o to_o god_n own_o free_a &_o sovereign_a pleasure_n which_o be_v the_o main_a cause_n the_o instrumental_a cause_n of_o the_o prosper_a
your_o book_n say_v otherwise_o and_o you_o know_v what_o both_o our_o ancient_n and_o modern_a divine_n have_v affirm_v in_o this_o point_n and_o therefore_o i_o quote_v none_o i_o do_v not_o mention_v election_n to_o be_v give_v to_o the_o people_n for_o that_o have_v nothing_o of_o government_n in_o it_o and_o this_o you_o give_v full_o but_o if_o you_o grant_v i_o the_o three_o former_a head_n than_o which_o way_n you_o will_v prove_v the_o government_n to_o be_v aristocratical_a the_o same_o way_n i_o shall_v i_o have_v speak_v to_o this_o before_o and_o therefore_o conclude_v with_o chamy_n and_o other_o the_o government_n be_v aristocratical_a obj._n but_o how_o can_v this_o be_v if_o the_o people_n will_v not_o consent_v how_o be_v they_o govern_v answ_n put_v case_n jonathan_n have_v be_v indeed_o a_o great_a malefactor_n and_o saul_n will_v have_v have_v he_o legal_o and_o just_o put_v to_o death_n but_o the_o people_n will_v not_o consent_v to_o their_o king_n but_o rescue_n 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a_o unnatural_a thing_n say_v he_o and_o so_o carry_v it_o that_o both_o his_o own_o friend_n and_o other_o minister_n who_o be_v stranger_n think_v he_o be_v also_o excommunicate_v as_o they_o tell_v i_o when_o i_o speak_v with_o they_o the_o story_n do_v something_o concern_v the_o head_n i_o be_o upon_o and_o therefore_o i_o make_v bold_a to_o insert_v it_o here_o i_o be_v a_o little_a trouble_v at_o the_o passage_n know_v well_o how_o thing_n be_v carry_v be_v present_a at_o that_o time_n and_o so_o take_v occasion_n some_o few_o week_n after_o to_o give_v a_o bare_a narrative_a how_o the_o thing_n be_v carry_v with_o so_o much_o meekness_n i_o be_o sure_a as_o none_o can_v accuse_v i_o the_o sum_n be_v this_o when_o all_o way_n according_a to_o the_o word_n have_v be_v try_v with_o mrs._n hutchison_n to_o recall_v she_o but_o none_o will_v prevail_v the_o question_n be_v put_v to_o the_o church_n to_o manifest_v consent_n for_o her_o excommunication_n her_o son_n and_o son-in-law_n one_o more_o than_o mr._n edward_n mention_v stand_v up_o to_o put_v some_o stop_n in_o the_o way_n have_v they_o sit_v still_o as_o any_o body_n will_v have_v expect_v though_o they_o have_v suspend_v their_o vote_n i_o know_v not_o who_o will_v have_v speak_v one_o word_n to_o they_o mr._n cotton_n rise_v up_o and_o give_v they_o a_o grave_a admonition_n that_o though_o their_o natural_a affection_n may_v now_o work_v for_o which_o he_o do_v not_o blame_v they_o yet_o he_o will_v not_o have_v they_o prefer_v their_o mother_n before_o christ_n nor_o hinder_v their_o mother_n from_o that_o ordinance_n which_o may_v be_v a_o mean_n to_o save_v her_o soul_n with_o these_o word_n they_o both_o sit_v down_o they_o never_o have_v any_o other_o censure_n if_o this_o be_v a_o censure_n and_o the_o church_n proceed_v in_o her_o excommunication_n now_o i_o appeal_v unto_o all_o to_o judge_v where_o be_v the_o tyranny_n in_o this_o act_n yet_o though_o i_o carry_v this_o with_o all_o mildness_n this_o be_v the_o only_a cause_n why_o mr._n edward_n rake_v up_o all_o he_o can_v against_o i_o and_o put_v it_o into_o print_n even_o such_o thing_n as_o never_o be_v in_o my_o thought_n but_o here_o you_o may_v see_v they_o stand_v not_o upon_o the_o suffrage_n of_o all_o the_o people_n five_o do_v the_o classical-man_n call_v for_o synod_n so_o do_v the_o congregational-man_n mr._n cotton_n keyes_n c._n 6._o mr._n norton_n respon_n ad_fw-la apollon_n p._n 112._o etc._n etc._n and_o certain_o they_o be_v man_n of_o strange_a spirit_n who_o deny_v synod_n to_o be_v useful_a and_o no_o ordinance_n of_o god_n i_o doubt_v he_o do_v not_o well_o consider_v what_o his_o pen_n let_v drop_n and_o leave_v it_o to_o posterity_n that_o he_o never_o see_v any_o good_a that_o come_v by_o any_o synod_n but_o rather_o the_o contrary_n a_o great_a clerk_n indeed_o he_o be_v but_o sure_o the_o man_n be_v in_o some_o passion_n i_o be_o sure_a i_o have_v know_v the_o contrary_a much_o good_a come_v by_o synod_n but_o some_o of_o our_o independent_o snutch_v up_o this_o sentence_n of_o he_o as_o if_o it_o be_v apostolical_a this_o be_v the_o difference_n say_v the_o congregational-man_n the_o synod_n bind_v directiuè_fw-la non_fw-la juridicè_fw-la the_o classical_a will_v have_v both_o when_o i_o observe_v what_o both_o side_n speak_v of_o synod_n methinks_v this_o can_v be_v no_o such_o matter_n of_o difference_n the_o classical_a brethren_n say_v 23_o lond._n vind._n p._n 23_o all_z the_o determination_n even_o of_o nationall_n synod_n be_v to_o be_v obey_v no_o further_o than_o they_o agree_v with_o the_o word_n of_o god_n and_o that_o a_o synod_n est_fw-la judex_fw-la judicandus_fw-la that_o congregation_n be_v to_o examine_v with_o the_o judgement_n of_o discretion_n what_o be_v send_v to_o they_o from_o synod_n mr._n rutherford_n say_v 322._o peac._n plea._n p._n 322._o the_o act_n of_o the_o assembly_n oblige_v all_o the_o absent_v not_o present_a in_o all_o their_o member_n not_o because_o of_o the_o authority_n of_o the_o church_n but_o because_o of_o the_o matter_n which_o be_v necessary_a and_o agreeable_a to_o god_n word_n that_o people_n may_v not_o examine_v decree_n of_o their_o synod_n according_a to_o god_n word_n that_o people_n may_v not_o reason_n or_o speak_v in_o their_o synod_n 246._o ib._n p._n 246._o we_o acknowledge_v no_o such_o synod_n this_o latter_a need_v a_o little_a fence_n otherwise_o we_o shall_v have_v confusion_n enough_o our_o church_n in_o new_a england_n choose_v out_o of_o every_o church_n two_o of_o the_o able_a of_o the_o private_a brethren_n and_o send_v they_o as_o their_o messenger_n these_o indeed_o have_v liberty_n to_o speak_v and_o propound_v doubt_n in_o the_o synod_n but_o it_o be_v not_o leave_v free_a for_o any_o body_n to_o speak_v that_o will_v mr._n gillespie_n state_n a_o question_n suppose_v a_o scandalous_a person_n will_v come_v to_o the_o sacrament_n 478_o aar_n rod._n 477_o 478_o the_o minister_n know_v he_o to_o be_v so_o advise_v the_o eldership_n to_o join_v with_o he_o and_o do_v their_o duty_n in_o keep_v this_o person_n away_o it_o may_v be_v they_o refuse_v appeal_v be_v make_v to_o high_a assembly_n classis_fw-la synod_n etc._n etc._n they_o it_o may_v be_v will_v judge_v he_o fit_a for_o the_o sacrament_n this_o be_v their_o sentence_n must_v this_o minister_n now_o obey_v the_o sentence_n of_o the_o classis_fw-la or_o synod_n his_o determination_n be_v that_o the_o minister_n be_v clear_a in_o his_o conscience_n and_o the_o matter_n of_o scandal_n sufficient_o prove_v he_o must_v not_o do_v a_o unlawful_a act_n in_o obedience_n to_o man_n but_o follow_v the_o rule_n 1_o tim._n 5.22_o keep_v thyself_o pure_a his_o conscience_n illuminate_v by_o god_n word_n be_v a_o rule_n to_o he_o of_o his_o own_o personal_a act_n or_o not_o act_v come_v to_o the_o congregational-man_n mr._n cotton_n say_v 25_o key_n p._n 25_o we_o dare_v not_o say_v that_o the_o power_n of_o a_o synod_n reach_v no_o further_a than_o the_o give_a counsel_n they_o bound_v burden_n they_o bound_v not_o only_o material_o but_o formal_o from_o the_o authority_n of_o the_o synod_n see_v more_o p._n 53_o 54._o neither_o do_v i_o see_v that_o our_o reverend_a divine_n in_o their_o preface_n to_o that_o book_n do_v oppose_v mr._n cotton_n for_o say_v they_o in_fw-la lay_v down_o mr._n cotton_v judgement_n christ_n have_v not_o furnish_v they_o only_o with_o ability_n to_o give_v counsel_n but_o with_o a_o ministerial_a power_n and_o authority_n to_o determine_v declare_v and_o enjoin_v such_o thing_n as_o may_v tend_v to_o reduce_v such_o congregation_n to_o right_a order_n and_o peace_n but_o be_v there_o authority_n it_o may_v be_v my_o shallowness_n but_o for_o the_o present_a i_o do_v not_o call_v to_o mind_v