â–ª For ther it is written that Lazarus is in ioy and solace wheâ— as the rycheman is punyshed in hell If so be that the soule as ye doo say shulde slepe she coulde haue no ioye excepte iâ— were by dreames if she reioyseth or haue ioy it is impossible that she shoulde slepe Likewisâ— it is manifest li knowen shewed in the .viii. of Mathew that many shall come sytte in the kyngdome of God with Abraham Isaak and Iacob That in the meane season I shoulde sai nothing that slepe is cleanâ— contrarye to the nature of the soule which is in Greke called â—ntesecheia or Endesechia that is to sai â— perpetuall and vnrequietable â—otion or workyng Sy. These â—hinges are more manifest and more strong then I thought Ioia It is the poynte of an vnwise man to say I thought not and hauyng hearde but one â—arte to geue sentence The Aâ—ababtistes do aduaunce and â—et forth gaily and paintyngly their argumentes but they are weake and nothyng strong Sy. I woulde fayne know in what significacioÌ„ the scripture vseth this worde to slepe which is so often tymes founde in euery place of the Bible Ioia Among the auncient fathers this worde to slepe was to dye naturally or after the commen course of nature And because of the resurrectioÌ„ it was saied that thei which dyd dye sleape For as a man geueth hym selfe to sleape doubting nothing but that he shall wake agayne from his sleape so the body sleapeth that is to say dyeth doeth lyâ— in the graue beyng kepte there â—yl the day of the general resurrection So the Fathers dyâ— sleape so Stephen all otheâ— godly persons Seyng therforâ— that to sleape is to dye and thâ— soules can not dye it foloweth that they canne not sleape Foâ— Stephen dyd saye Lorde receiue thou my spirite which thyng when he had saied haâ— coÌ„mitted or coÌ„mended his soul to the heauenly father his bodâ— sleapynge dyd dye In thy thyng they are deceyued thaâ— they do attribute vnto the souâ— that which belongeth to the body only But in the meane seasoÌ„ it is attributed to the whole maÌ„ because of the vnitie of the body and of the soule beyng knytted in one persone Which example was brought afore of Christ in whom the body died only not his godhead nor his soule Lykewyse a man slepeth but with his bodye not with his soule The Anababtistes doo not nor wyl not vnderstand this figure Sinâ—cdochâ— nor the other figures tropes Which thyng causeth them to erre in many thynges But ignorauncye maketh them the bolder to teache what so euer they do dreame or conceyue in their sleape Sy. Yet it is euident that Paul saith that a cotoune of rightwisnes shal be reÌ„dered vnto him at lengthe when thâ— Lorde cometh And also that which is written in Iohn anâ— in the Epistle to the Philipenâ— is sure and strongly grounded â–ª Ioia This ought to be obserueâ— Symon that the daye of thâ— Lorde in scriptures is not alwayes to bee taken for the lasâ— day but somtyme for the truth and lyght as in the gospell oâ— Iohn otherwhyles for the viâ— sitacion of the Lorde as ofteâ— tymes in the Prophetes and â— Cor. iii. sometyme for the endâ— death of euery man as Iohâ— vi I wyll resussitate or raysâ— him agayne to euerlastyng life in the last daye that is to sayeâ— when he dyeth For when anâ— man dyeth that day is last vntâ— hym After thys maner dyâ— Paule call the last daye in thâ— Epistle to Timothe For he had spoken before of his death saiyng I am ready to be offered affirming that he had ben faith full and loyall in his course therfore he dyd not doubte but that the rightwise iudge shulde render vnto him the coroune of rightwysnesse which as he leaueth no vnrightwysnesse vnpunyshed so alwayes rewardeth them that lobor faithfully And this place doeth rather for vs then for the Anababtistes seing that Paule dothe hope that the coroune of rightwysnesse duyd vnto the rightwyse shal be renderyd vnto him at the tyme of his death Ergo he beleueth not that the soules do slepe but that they do lyue euerlastingly That which thou aledgest out of Iohn and Paule to the Philipenses are spoken of the last iudgement but they proue not that the soules are a sleape For that whiche they doo speake of saluation there dooe perteyne more to the resurrection of the body For these are the wordes of Paule He shall transforme that is to say Christ our vyle body that he may make it conforme and lyke to his glorious body What meane these thingê elles but that our bodyes haue full hope of resurrection or risyng agayn As Iob dyd speke Iob .ix. Sy. If the soules dooe receyue by and by their iudgement as sone as they be departed what neadeth that vniuersall iudgement Ioia It perteyneth to the whole man whiche shall be repayred or made new agane with the body that shall ryse with the soule Of the which thyng it is written Chess .iiii. Mat. xxiiii .xxv. Doest thou yet desyre any thiÌ„g Sy. I had leauer heare foundations and groundes oute of the scriptures Ioia I haue brought verye many alreadye what dooest thou aske more Sy. Thou hast other helpes yet the which I pray the to bryng forth Ioia Seynge that thou arte desyrous of the truthe I wyll hyde nothyng frome the. This Doctrine and Opinion of the Sleape of the Soules dooeth not ouelye repugne agaynst the Scriptures fayth dooeth not onely disanulle the Gospell and Resurrection of Christ but is also agaynst all coÌ„mune sense reasone a rude and vnclearkelye ignoraunce but go to let vs expounde these thyngê I aske thee if the soule be a body or a spirite Sy. It is not a bodye nor any grosse substaunce but a syngle and pure spirite Ioia Can then a spirite be subiect to bodily infirmities as to be an hongered to be weryed to dye c. Sy. No for these perteyne to the bodye onely A spirite is immortall incorruptible euerlasting or perpetuall Ioiada Thou sayest very well therfore marke thyne argumeÌ„t thus Sith the soule is a spirit not a bodye it can not be subiecte to bodily passions or infirmities but is exempte frome them slepe doth chaunce to the body thorough werinesse Ergo the soule can not slepe for the soule cannot be weary Or canst thou brynge any other thynge concernyng slepe Sy. No for all operacions and senses dooe ceasse and rest and excepte the body shulde brethe folkes wold thynke that it were dead Ioia Now if our soules should slepe it shoulde folow that after this lyfe we doo feele neither good nor euyll which dothe directly pugne agaynste the Gospell Moreouer we wyl proue by the nature of the slepe that the soules can not slepe but the bodye only For now I aske the when doeth the soule slepe after that she is departed frome the body or when she is yet ioyned to the body
not admyt the scripture to be iudge but referre al thynges to theyr interpretation and spiritee Is not this an hygh blasphemie that a sinnefull man shoulde presume to sete hym selfe iudge ouer the word and wyl of god asthough he ought not to bee obedient vnto it excepte he were moued with his owne spiritee and mocion to reiecte or receiue it I harde ones a papiste doctour openly in a disputaciō saie that we whiche teache the gospell dooe teache the truthe and dyd alowe our teachynge veary well but that he coulde not nor durste subscribe vnto it exrepte our teachynge were adprobated and alowed by the bisshoppe of Rome Beholde my Symon what abhominacion is this that a mortall man shulde take vpon hym to adprobate alowe the diuine and heauenly veritee and set hym selfe iudge ouer god Therfore haue I put this conclusion in the forefront because that the Anababtistes doe for y ◠moste parte boast and aduaunce their spirite vnder such pretence deceiuyng the simple and rude people Symon Doeth not Paule teache this that the letter doeth kylle and the spirit viuifieth or doeth quieken ii Corin. iii And Christe doeth saie Ioan. xiiii The spirite shall teache you all truthe It is spoken by the lorde also Hieremy xxxi Euery man shall teache no more his neyghbour saiyng knowe thou the lorde but all shall knowe hym from the lowest to the hyghest Finally Iohn dooeth saie It is no neede that euery man dooe teache you but as the vnction teacheth you of all thinges whiche is true and is no lye What canst thou saye agaynst so manyfeste scriptures Ioiada To the woordes of Paule I aunsweare thus That Paul speaketh there of the lawe whyche kylleth vs as he dooeth declare more apertly in the .vii. chap. to the Romains And by the spirit he vnderstondeth faith and the consolacion or comforte of the gospell That it is so the texte of the whole chapter dooeth testifie Therefore this place helpeth nothyng your errour For whan we speake of the woorde of god we dooe not vnderstonde the bare and deade letter or voyde sonnde of it but the word well and truely vnderstonded and as it is in veary dede And as for that that Chryste dooeth promesse a spyrite vnto his dysciples teachynge them all thynges wee dooe admytte and beleue it But that spyrite can not bee contrarye to Chryste nor teacheth any other thyng than Chryst hath taught Therfore doeth he adde by and by teachyng you what so euer I haue saied vnto you What dooe these thynges perteyne to the spirite of the Anababtistes whiche teacheth contrary thynges to the spirite of Christe The prophecies of Ioel and Hieremye are vnderstonded of that same spirite that Christe dooeth bothe promesse and geue to his disciples as it is euidently sene in the seconde chapiter of the Actes and the eyght to the Hebrues Iohn in his epistell whan he speaketh of the vnctyon dooeth playnely expounde hym selfe saiynge I haue written vnto you that ye bee not deceyued or that ye dooe not suffer your selues to be brought in to errour whyche thyng will then come to passe if ye dooe stedfastely abyde in the doctrine of the spirite whiche ye haue harde at the begynnynge and swarue not at all from it The holy ghoste is the spirite of truthe which canne neither lye nor repugne against hym selfe beyng all waies constaunte vnchaungeable euery where lyke vnto hym selfe Now no man can denaye but that the same euerlastyng vnchaungeable and holy spirite hath inspyred the holy scriptures in to holy mens hertes and myndes Whereby it foloweth necessarily that the same spirite which speaketh agaynste the meanyng of the spirite that dooeth speake and expresse hym selfe in the diuine scriptures is not of god but rather an humaine mayne affection whyche if it bee styffe maie bee deseruyngly called a deauelysshe spyryte as Chryste dooeth proue agaynste the Iues. Iohn viii Or canst thou thynke in thy mynde that spirite to bee good whiche contemneth the cleare manyfeste pure and holy scriptures and when by them he is conuicted of errour doeth boste an other spirite whiche shoulde teache cleane cōtrary thinges Is not this to despise y ◠spirite of y ◠scriptures and to repugne against hym As though our spirit meaneth truely and the spirit of the scriptures most falsely Where haue the Anababtistes learned to set their spirit against y ◠scriptures yea and preferre hym to the holy worde of god Symon But who hath geuen you this libertee to iudge al thynges after the litterall sence or letter Ioiada That we dooe not as thou doest interprete the letter But we saie that the worde of god conteined in the scriptures of the Bible is a touche stone wherby spirites are tried For what spirite so euer doeth agree with the scriptures is of god the father of truthe And agayne what spirite so euer is contrary to the holy scriptures is of the dyuelle the father of lyes Seyng therfore that the spyrite of the Anababtistes wil not bee ruled by the holy scriptures but preferreth hym selfe to the woorde of god callynge by crafte the woorde of god a bare letterre yea and sette set him selfe iudge ouer it he cānot be of god For if he were of god he would come to light and speake that same thyng that the holy ghost doeth speake in al the holy scriptures But now sith y t he doeth not depende of the scriptures but will be at his own lybertie it is a token that it is a craft and subtiltie of the deuell whiche doeth alwayes scatter repugne against god Sy. Thou speakest these thynges mightily and stronglye but withoute the word of god And this is your familier custome to speake many thinges without scriptures As touching the spirite what he techeth I haue brought and alledged places and testimonies oute of the scriptures But that the spirit ought to be tried by scriptures or rather mācipated and bounde vnto them and not be at his own libertie it is thy parte for to proue Or peraduenture thou dost prefer the creature vnto the creatour Ioi What and yf I should say also My spirite hath taught me this thyng What couldest thou do or say vnto me Sym. But that is not to aunswere Ioi Nor ye do not answere sufficiently when ye bost your spirite without or agaynst the scriptures But in this thīg we do learne that whan it pleaseth you ye vse the scriptures agayne whan ye see to be expede ent ye boaste aud aduance your spirit Whan I affirme that the spirite must be tried by the scriptures I doe not mancipate nor subdue the creatour vnto y ◠creature but I will that the thynge whiche is vncertaine be tryed proued by y t which is certaine and that any spirit be tried by the holy spirit of god that is to saie by the scriptures whether he agreeth with hym self or not And if he be like euery where vnto him self to be receiued if not to be refused
reiected as false deceitful But whan ye speake of the spirite ye doe vnderstond a bare creature For your spirit is not the holy ghost but a carnall affection Sy. Ye dooe yet without any scriptures of the Bible enhaunce and magnifie the letter Io. Not so but rather we here ground ourselues bothe vpon y e scriptures of god and vpon examples Sy. Shew therfore y t the truthe muste be tryed by the scriptures not rather w t a fre spirit without scriptures Io. By thy wordes doe I perceine what thinge doeth begile you that is y t ye do seuer these .ii. thinges beyng vnited inuisebly knitted together y t is to saie the spirite the scriptures which can nor ought to be separated asunder the one from y e other For whē we name y e scriptures we doe vnderstande y e expressed worde of y t spirit For as y e voice or sound of y e worde can in no wise be separated from y e lyuely breth of y e liuing creature So y e scriptures can not be diuided from y e spirit y t inspireth thē for y e scripture is y e expressed wil of god but now wil I bryng y e testimonies places w t thou requirest our lord Iesu Christ vnto whom y e heuēly father did geue witnes from heuen who hath receiued the holy ghost after no measure did not despise y e sciptures in so muche that he dyd corroborate all his saiynges by them onely and did commaund that the Iewes should trye both his woordes and factes by the scriptures Ihon. v. and Luke xvi He biddeth them to lyfte vp their eyes to Moyses the prophetes and not to apparaunte spirites He reprouyng also the Saduceis did shewe that this was the cause of their errour be cause that they were ignoraunt in scriptures or neglected them Mark .xii. The Apostles as we may vnderstand by the booke of the Actes did receiue abundātly in the beginyng the holy gost that by a sertaine visible tokē And yet not withstandyng did thei not therfore forsake or contēne y e scriptures nor boste their spirite against thē But rather did proue strengthen all their sermons with the worde of god preachyng nothyng els but the pure and playne scriptures These thynges are euydently proued by the epistels of Peter Iohn doeth plainely shewe and teache that the spirites owght to be tried whether thei bee of god or not .i. Io. iiii Wherby it is euydent enowgh that spirites owght to be tried and that thei be not so free as the Anahabtistes will haue them And how thei muste bee proued it is manifestly declared in y t place Paule whiche was rauisshed in to the thyrde heauen and dyd learne his gospel of Iesu Christ beyng hym selfe the chosen vessel of god full of the holy ghost and heauenly wisedome neuer the lesse before the kyng Agrippa he doeth testify that he dyd teache nothyng beside Moises and the prophetes Act. xxvi In the epistell to the Galathians y e first chapter he saieth thus if I or an angel of heauen shulde preach vnto you any other thīg then ye haue harde let it be anathema or acursed He also warnyng and teachyng Tymothe that be shoulde beware of false and erroneous doctrines dyd directe and sende hym to the redyng of scriptures But reade thou the iii. chapiter of the seconde epistell to Tymothe and it shall appere what we owght to iudge and thynke of the Anababtistes secte what of the spirite and of the scriptures Sy. That place is knowen well enowghe and I am almost persuaded But this vexed my mynde that Paule saieth that a spirituall man iudgeth all thynges but he is iudged of no body Ioiada I longe to knowe of the of what spirite Paule doeth speake there Symon But I haue leauer to heare it of the Ioiada Considre the woordes y t go before For he saieth thus We haue not receiued the spirit of the world but the spirit whiche is of god that we may know what thynges haue ben geuen vnto vs by Chryst Symon But to what purpose did Paul speke here of the holy ghost Ioiada I aske of the wheather y t same selfe spirite dyd not inspyre the scriptures Symon Truely that same selfe spirite Ioiada Seyng therfore that it is all one and bothe the same spirite that Paule speaketh of here and that whiche speaketh in the scriptures haue I not proued that Paule by a spirituall man did not vnderstond hym which boasteth I can not tell what spirite despisyng in the meane season the scriptures but suche a spirituall man as is and will be ruled and gouerned by the holy ghost that waie that he sheweth and expresseth hym selfe in the holy scriptures He therfore that striueth againste the holy scripture and inspiracyon of the holy ghost can not bee that spirituall man whome Paule doeth speke of Now if he be not spirituall he can not iudge but he muste be iudged The Anababtistes therfore can iudge nothyng but ought to bee iudged and tryed by the worde of god Hathe not here the spirite of the Anababtistes lost bothe his win ges But I do remembre other ii places whiche dooe vtterly stoppe the mouthes of the Catababtistes The first is in the .x. chapiter of the Actes touchyng Cornelius the centurion which although he was elected by god yet not withstandyng beyng so tawght by the angell did sende messangers to fetche Peter y t he migh heare by hym the preachīg of our sauiour Iesu christ If that the spirite should disanulle and abolisshe the scriptures it shulde folow y t this outwarde preachyng and such like thinges wer done in vaine The other is in the .xvi. chapiter concernyng the Thessaloniens whiche after that thei had harde the preachyng of Paule dyd daily seke and serche the scriptures to knowe wheather Paule dyd teache true or not Which thing thei wolde not haue done if the spirites shoulde not be tried by the scriptures wherefore what so euer the Anababtistes dooe teache concernyng this thynge is false and erroneous and not vnlike vnto the errour of Montanus Sym. What monstruous thyng is y t Ioiada This Montanus about .xiii. hundred yeres a go was a great heretike who did almost speake of the spirite as the Anababtistes dooe For thei do cal in again the old abolisshed errours as it shall appere hereafter Sym. Go forth I praie y e and let vs discusse the argumentes of the second conclusion For I can not beleue that none of the saynttes whiche thyng thou doest affirme stifly did thruste them selues into the office of common preachers excepte thei were called What other thyng is this but as the bisshop of Rome hath done in times paste to hyde the truthe frome the commons that none saue onely thei that are learned dare speake and talke of it Where as not withstandynge god did manifest him self to the littell ones and not to the wise Mathew xi Ioiada I will doe it
without scriptures Ioiada I wyll proue all that I haue saied by the worde of god A littell afore that Chryste did departe from his apostels he did sende them vnto the worlde to preache the gospel vnto all cretures but before y t thei shoulde take in honde this offyce they shulde tary a while in Nierusalem till they were endued with grace frome aboue For he dyd promise vnto them to sende the promised spirit and comfort our of the father vpon them And after that thei had ones receiued the holy ghost with it thei did receiue the knowlage of all sciences speches tongues Luc. xxiiii Act. ii whan Moises dyd draw backe and did bryng many excuses knowledgyng hym selfe to bee without vtterance vneloquent chyldisshe and vnmete for that offyce that god woulde haue sent hym to the lord did promise that he would be in his mouth as he dyd also promise to his apostelles suche mouth and wisedome that no man shoulde bee able to resyste agaynste it Mathew .x. Paule writynge to Tymothe and Titus concernyng the election of bysshoppes requireth such one as is apte to teache able to exhorte with wholsome doctrine whyche can reuycte and confounde them that resyste and withsaie the truthe .i. Timothe iii. Titus .i. There Paule doeth forbydde that none of them whyche were newly conuerted shoulde be admitted to the office of a preacher Netherto haue I brought places and testimonies out of the scriptures touchyng the learnyng that ought to be in an ouerseer or bysshop Now shall we heare what the scriptures doe testifie and witnesse concernyng the miracles of them that are sent We dooe therfore alleage here the wonders that Moyses did shewe in Egypte and other innnmerable signes and tokens that bee written in the Actes the manifeste imposicion of handes and that thei dyd receiue the holy ghost visebly Moreouer that thei whiche be sent ought to be laufully elected and chosen by a common assent we dooe dryng the first chapiter of the Attes vpon the election of Mathias the vii and .xiii. of the Actes vpon the election of Steuen Paule and Barnabas The .xiii. chap. also of the Actes doeth manifestly shewe that Paule and Barnabas when thei had created thorow all the churches by a generall election priestes or seniours laiyng their handes vpon them and had made theyr praiers with fastyng did committe them vnto the lorde in whome thei had beleued Now thou seest my Symon that in y ◠times of the Apostels euery man dyd not rasshely aduaunce nor sette for the hym selfe to preache For if it hadde ben so what shoulde haue neaded any election and imposicion of handes But election was made after praiers fastyng The same is also written in the epistell to Titus Sy. What if thou fyndest all such thynges among the Anababtistes Io. Not y ◠lesse iote of al y ◠aboue rehersed thīges ergo thei are not sēt by god but sēsualitee and ipmpudent boldenesse dyd impell moue them For what myracles doe thei except these are to be called miracles that they with their pernicious doctrine dooe brynge men out of their right and godly minde in to starke madnesse or that thei make the gammons and legges of bakon hangynge in the larders of the symple and poore people inuisible What learnynge should we loke for where rudenes and as thei do speake themselues simplicitee is taken for hyghe rudicion I dooe passe ouer here many of them whiche can scarcely reade yea and what wyll ye saie of them y ◠can reade no maner of thyng Are not these y ◠neophites by y ◠neophites I meane not onely them that are newly conuerted but such as doe lacke learnyng that Paule do reiecte But thei promote them that by all their lyues tyme did neuer reade the Bybles hauyng onely in readinesse certaine sentences not vnderstonded which beyng either plucked out of al partes of scripture or stolen or els borowed of their gydes leaders thei dooe wrethe wrast turne to contencion w t all maledicence reuilyng And so stondyng among the simple people haue alwais in their tonges endes y ◠father of heauen and the spirite What name my Symon maie conueniently be geuen vnto them I maie not call them apostels for thei are not sent by god Again thei do not preache wher nothīn hath ben yet preached of god but where y ◠people hath ben a long season with the great labour of the true and faithfull ministers taught the waie of truthe there doe thei breake in destroiyng peruertyng as a storme or tempest stirryng vp all thinges makyng the commons so perplexed and doubtfull that thei know neither ende nor begynnyng If any man shoulde call them prophetes and expositours of the scriptures it were none other thyng but to call a filthy swine an excellent cunning Musician For thei are ignorant in al maner of tongues in so muche that thei doe contemne them being content with y ◠vulgare tongue onely If thou callest thē doctours they know nothynge lesse than the right waie and trade of teachyng Besides that thei want the truthe whiche is chiefly required in a teacher But paraduenture thei will be called bishops and sheapherdes Why do y ◠lacke then al suche excellent giftes as Paule requireth in a teacher or bishop In so much that thei be vnlearned striuers contencious and rude neophites Briefly they haue nothyng that perteine to y ◠office of a teacher Wherby any man maie perceiue that the Anababtistes are suche as doe send them selues beyng perplexed sedicious debatefull ambitious heretykes Sy. Thei be bothe chosen and sent Ioi By whome Sy. By their church Moreouer one brother dooeth lai his hand vpō y ◠other geuing hym ful power autoritee Io. This sendyng election maketh me to remēbre y ◠bishop of Rome for after that the bisshop of Rome dyd ones get pourchasse vnto hym selfe thorowgh disobedience tirannie and pernicious crafte suche great power by and by dyd he promote to bisshoprykes euery mule keper bawdes and blody souldyours ▪ But who did teache them to seuer and diuide the churche beynge vnited and glued with faithe and charitee seynge that there is but one God one faythe one babtyme and one churche Who hathe sent the authours of this secte to make and congregate a new churche Truely amulacion enuy strife contencion auaryce ambicion and stiffe pertinacy I could wel and sufficiently proue all these thynges except I shoulde here wittyngly spare some people Their Churche therfore is not the Churche of God but a certayne secte and congregacion of styffenecked and disobedient people among whom there is no more iust election then is in the company of rebelles traytours whiche forsakyng their owne prince or gouernour doo retchely without aduisement chuse thys man or that man to be their Capitayne But let vs graunt that it is a Church yet not withstandyng they erre in election whiche is not vsed among them