Selected quad for the lemma: spirit_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
spirit_n	father_n	john_n	word_n	5,237	5	4.2998	3	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A90976	The sun out-shining the moon, or, Righteousness excelling rottennness in answer to a lying scandalous paper, published by John Moone, entituled, The true light hath made manifest darknesse, &c. : but it is darkness put forth for light, as it will appear by that which followeth / and is published by John Price.	Price, John, Welsh clergyman.; Bownd, William. Brief discovery of the the erroneous tenets of those who are distinguished from other men by the name of Quakers.	1658 (1658)	Wing P3353; ESTC R43721	30,935	58

is not my intention but to make a short reply to that wherein he doth particularly and falsly accuse not onely me but Hugh Ev●ns also In his 3. Pag. he saith That Hugh Evans said that Christ his Spirit is distinct but he diminished from his words for Hugh Evans said that Christ his Spirit is distinct in their offices operations Now I would desire every honest mind to consider the basenesse of this man that would cunningly and purposely leave out half the mans words and put the other half out in Print for these were the words that Hugh E. vans said That Christ and his Spirit are distinct in their Offices and operations Then John Moone accused him of blasphemy in saying that Christ and his Spirit is distinct Then Hugh said Why dost thou divide my words said John Moone I will publish thy blasphemy Then Hugh Evans said I charge thee to publish my whole saying Now I would have every sincere heart to judge whether this man is not left here without a cover to hide his nakednesse and shame Was it not a shameful thing for him to accuse the man of blasphemy and yet he himself afraid to publish the whole pretended blasphemy or doth it not argue that his malitious mind would cast a false aspersion upon Hugh Evans and upon that which he professed which I believe he aimed amost at Again consider whether this man hath not made shipwrack of a good conscience if ever he had any that would knowingly and purposedly misrepresent a man to all people under the title of a Blasphemer yet would not publish his whole saying which he did over over repeat I do not speak this because that the saying is so grosse in the terms as John Moone hath put it out but to shew the dishonesty of this perfect man This I say to thee John Moone that either thou dost not understand the sense of the word distinct or else thou art very willing to make uprears and quarrels where there is no cause but I do believe both of thee therefore I shal shew thee how Christ his Spirit is not distinct Secondly How he is distinct or distinguished The word distinct doth not alwayes mean two material things standing at a distance the one from the other as it is like thou dost ignorantly suppose there is distance in places in times and in persons but neither of these distinctions is to be made between Christ his Spirit there is also distinctions in natures qualities and properties yet I do not say that Christ and his Spirit is so to be distinguished The Father Son and Spirit is distinguished yet not divided though it is like that thou dost think that whatsoever is distinguished is divided There are three that bear witnesse in Heaven the Father Son and the Spirit and these three are one yet distinguished three and so it may be said of Christ and his Spirit Very much may be said of Christ being distinct in his Office yet not separated nor divided from his Spirit Christ said as he was the Son of man I have finished the work which thou hast given me to do but it cannot be said that the Spirit of Christ hath finished his work until all be converted that ever shall be converted and all the Saints glorified but the work of Christ in suffering for sin in the flesh is finished yet Christ and his Spirit is not divided but distinguished It is like that John Moon thought by leaving out part of the words which Hugh Evans had said that it would appear more like to be blasphemy It appeares also that John Moone did know that it was no blasphemy as Hugh Evans had spoken it or at least that he would not be believed by others if he did write the whole saying Take the wisest mans speech that ever was and let me leave out what part I will of it I know that I shall either make it blasphemy or non-sense as for instance Psalm 14.1 which saith The Fool saith in his heart There is no God leave out The Fool saith in his heart and then you may say that the Scripture saith There is no God John Moones affirmative is true but his negative is false it is true that Christ and his Spirit is one but to say there is no distinction in their Offices operations and workings is false as may be further proved by many instances but that the thing is so plain that I desire not to trouble the Reader any further But know this that Christ and his Spirit is one in reference to time place and person and an harmony of an agreement between them in their Offices operations and workings all in and fulfilling of the will of the one onely wise God I say further that the onely wise pure Father Son Spirit and Saints are one and yet a thousand distinctions I believe may be observed touching the Father Son Spirit and Saints and without distinctions he nor no man else can speak much of them not blaspheme I say saith John Moone that they are one and not distinct Then I say if there be no distinctions why doth he call Christ and his Spirit they which doth signifie pluralities he nor no man else can speak of the Father Son and Spirit and not make distinctions for in the words themselves lieth distinctions saith the Apostle Joh. 17.21 22. where he speaketh of the Father Son and Spirit and these three are one these and thine and mine them and us all these words doth signifie distinctions yet not divisions he goeth on to prove that Christ and his Spirit are one and so fights with his own shadow for nothing else hath he to fight with for all will say that Christ and his Spirit is one but if any would deny it he goeth very weakly to prove it for he goeth about to prove that which all England doth acknowledge in words and not make good any thing against what is affirmed that Christ and his Spirit is distinguished And this is the effect of his reasoning because John and Paul doth witnesse union between Christ and his Spirit therefore no distinction as he saith after he cited Rom 8.20 and Joh. 17.21 Now see where is the distinction saith he then he writes down John 17.21 22. Then said he Them that have an eye to see withal let them see the confusion which the Baptists declare whereas it is his own confusion foaming out his own shame and falsly accusing those whom he calls the Baptists in saying that they say That Christ and his Spirit is distinct the one from the other but thou hast grafted on this lie since thou thy self didst repeat that part of the words which Hugh Evans had said for neither did Hugh Evans say nor thy self till now that they were one from the other Is this thy honesty first to diminish from the mans words and instead of them adde thine own Hugh Evans said That Christ and his

THE SUN OUT-SHINING THE MOON OR Righteousnesse excelling Rottenness In answer to a lying scandalous Paper PUBLISHED BY JOHN MOONE ENTITVLED THE TRUE LIGHT Hath made manifest darknesse c. But it is darkness put forth for light as it will appear by that which followeth And is Published by JOHN PRICE Prov. 30.12 There is a Generation that are pure in their own eyes and yet are not washed from their filthinesse Prov. 12.22 Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord but they that deal truely are his delight Prov. 12.19 The lips of truth shall be established for ever but a lying tougue is but for a moment Prov. 14.25 A true witnesse delivereth souls but a deceitful witnesse speaketh lyes LONDON Printed for the Author 1658. READER I Had no desire to appear so publickely neither had I so appeared now if the wrong and abuse had reflected onely upon my self but lest that the truth professed by me should be abused through my being silent seeing that the good will of our God was to deprive me and many more of my Brother Hugh Evans who was buried before the appearance of John Moones printed Paper For if he had lived I should not have so publickely appeared in this Work he being chiefly accused and abused by the aforesaid John Moone And seeing that I am also grossely abused and my words perverted I judge it my duty and know it my liberty to clear my self and others from the aspersions falsly cast upon us and vindicate the truth professed by us I would have the Reader to know that I have no prejudicial thoughts towards John Moone though I have worse thoughts of him then I have of many of his Brethren I would not the least wrong done to his nor their Persons and I would as willingly give them the liberty of their consciences as I would have the liberty of my own Drunkards and Swearers can go without being persecuted neither dragged or haled to Prison when civil sober harmlesse men under the name of Hereticks are abused and imprisoned and be judged by vile carnal unjust Judges who have no Religion nor God but their bellies but if any should say now he taketh the part of those whom he himself opposeth It is true I do so but I do not oppose them peradventure as thou dost It may be thou wouldest have men to be of thy Religion be it right or wrong whether they can believe it or not or else thou wilt have them persecuted and imprisoned and so force them to make Shipwracke of their conscience or to suffer persecution And I would use all Lawful meanes in love meeknesse and tendernesse to convince them of their errors and if I could be a meanes to win them I would rejoyce in the Lord with them if not I will pity them and mourn for them and not seek to destroy them as the manner of most of all Nations is not considering that the ninth hour may be behind or that they may be called at the eleventh hour But thou wouldest have them to observe thy time and not suffer them to stay for God's time or if they will not observe thy time thou wouldest have them destroyed and not suffer them to live until the last hour to see if peradventure they may enter into the Vineyard and will of God and be saved But I shall desire thee and all men to learn of the Spirit of grace and meeknesse rather to pity then to persecute thy poor miserable Brother who was created and estated with thee in Paradise who also have fallen from thence with thee and became Children of wrath and though by grace thou art recovered to a lively hope of that glory that shall be revealed O I say rather learn to pity and to long for the recovery of him out of the snares of the Devil then to hate and persecute him So I leave thee and desire to find thee led by the Spirit of moderation and wisedom and remain a Lover and well-wisher of thy soul and body J. P. Also I desire thee to read and not to judge partially of either side And likewise thou art desired to observe the difference between their words and Papers and ours for I have published several Papers which they had sent to us and also those which we had sent to them Dated the ninth day of July in the year 1657. EPISTLE TO all them in whom a sparkle of true grace and sincere zeal hath once been kindled and have felt the weight and seen the odiousnesse and filth of their sins And by the light and love of the Father being kindled in the heart have seen and judged it but just to deliver up unto death that Murtherer who hath killed the just and so have put on a Righteous Resolution and continueth in the Battle and fighteth under the Banner of God's love and though peradventure you have been benighted in the pursuit of your Enemy and were at a stand in a desolate Wildernesse yet your hatred against the Enemy remaining that is to say your own sins fleshly wills and desires and a longing desire after that peaceable Habitation and life which is to be attained unto through death I wish that Christ's exhortation may prevail with you in this confused age in which there is so many Loe here and loe there Be ye as wise as Serpents and harmlesse as Doves wisedom and Innocency are excellent vertues at all times but especially in these dayes wherein there are so many Forms and Professions of Godlinesse and Antichrist most subtilly hath laid its snare in every one of them and no sooner he is found out in one shape but speedily he shifts himself into another shape or Form and decketh trimmeth sitteth and sheweth himself as though he is God So I desire that you would carefully observe his motions and refuse his society and that you may die dayly to every thing that dieth and so be weaned from the Vanities of this present evil World Chiefly for your sakes have I published somewhat of that which hath passed between the Baptized Believers in these Countries and the people known by the name of Quakers As for the people in general I shall not say much of but chiefly those which I and others in these Countries have had experience of their Doctrine Lives and Conversations they have not been in this Countrey but about eighteen Moneths and to speak the truth they brought many shifts with them but before thirteen Moneths was come about they were worn thred-bare in so much that their nakednesse and shame was seen So I commend you with all Saints to the meek love of God I rest and remain Your Friend and Lover of all them that in sincerity seeketh and longeth after the fulnesse of God and goodnesse JOHN PRICE THE SUN OUT-SHINING THE MOON OR Righteousnesse excelling Rottennesse In answer to a lying scandalous Paper Published by JOHN MOONE Entituled The TRUE LIGHT Hath made manifest darknesse c. THere was a

shall be changed for the Trumpet shall sound they that have done good to the Resurrection of life and they that have done evil to the Resurrection of condemnation Here is thy objections and queries answered by him whom the world calls John Moons This Paper which he first makes mention of I sent to him I have not the Copy of else I would have set it down here but the effect of it was this John Moone hath charged me with Balaams sin and why but because I was a Register and he pressed upon me to prove my practise by Scripture and prove a Register in the Church of God Then I produced in my Letter that Scripture Nehem. 7.5 64. which is effectual to answer what he demanded and as he is full of confusion in other things so also in this in not distinguishing between the Church and Commonwealth to be an Officer of a just Law and justly executed is no sin neither is there any more error nor covetousnesse in it then is in any other calling whatsoever and wherein he compares me to Balaam who would by Witch-craft destroy all the people of God I will not trouble my self about it but leave such a plain case to the Reader to judge of the unequality of the comparison Here followeth several queries sent by John Moone and one John David to Hugh Evans and John Price which are as followeth Now having answered thy Paper and queries we have sent these few queries to be answered by Hugh Evans and thee and all your followers and so let them be particularly answered according to plain Scriptures if any of you can or else let your mouths be stopped for evermore First query What is the first principle of pure Religion and undefiled before God and whether this pure Religion is to be attained here while men are this side grave yea or nay John David and John Moone this in brief touching your queries We answer to your first That it is repentance from dead works and that is attainable this side the grave or the natural death Be ashamed of your ignorance in asking such a question as whether pure Religion is attainable in this life Second query What that light is which lighteth every man that comes into the world and whether that light is within in the conscience yea or nay Second Answer Christ is that light and it shineth in some men's conscience and not in all for Esai saith that there be some men which have no light in them Third query Whether that light which is come into the world which is the condemnation of the world be sufficient to lead them to Salvation yea or nay Third Answer It is sufficient Fourth query Whom God spake to when he said Let us make man in our own image and where that Garden of Eden is where the Lord God put man whom he had formed Fourth Answer God spake to himself as he was Father Son and Spirit and as touching the Garden of Eden where it is and seeing you would have us to prove by plain Scriptures we direct you to the first Book of Moses and the second Chapter not because we have no more to say of it but that Ismael is not worthy of it or you scoffers Fifth Query Where is that flesh and blood to be obtained except a man eateth thereof he hath no life in him now if any of you can witnesse life declare whether it be a this side grave yea or nay Fifth Answer That flesh and blood is in the believer and he eateth and drinketh thereof Sixth Query Whether they that are Baptized into Jesus Christ his death be not made free from sin yea or nay Sixth Answer They are made free from the condemning Power of sin Seventh Query Whether there be any true Church but that Church in God and whether any in that Church were persecutors or went for the wages of unrighteousnesse Shew one Example in all the Scriptures if you can or else repent and be ashamed for the evil of your wayes Seventh Answer There is no true Church out of God but are by Faith in God neither doth that Church persecute nor bring a Justice of Peace with them to threaten those that comes peaceably to enquire and to try the truth of its doctrine as you have done to us nor do any of them go for the wages of unrighteousnesse and we do exhort you to repent of your lying in accusing us of any such things Eighth Query Where that voice is to be heard which gathers into one sheep-fold and where that sheep-sold is and whether any of them which follow the one Shepherd may be plucked out of his hands yea or nay Eighth Answer Where the true Teacher is there the voice is to be heard And where the Saints are gathered there is the Sheepfold and they that follow Christ cannot be plucked out of his hands but if any of them will leave following of him by hearkening unto such seducers as you are them they may come to ruine Ninth query Where that City of the living God and Heavenly Jerusalem is and the Church of the first born and where the Spirits of the just men made persect is and whether this may be known and witnessed this side the grave yea or nay Ninth Answer That City is where the presence of God in peace is And we shall more fully possesse it when mortality shall be swallowed up of life Tenth query Where that bottomlesse Pit is where all them that doth wickedly and forget God shall be thrown into if any of you can declare JOHN DAVIES JOHN MOONE Tenth Answer Where the presence of God is not in peace there the bottomlesse Pit is If you are not satisfied with this answer do you appoint the time and place and send us word we will give you the meeting and will reason with you provided that you will be civil Hugh Evans John Price These fore-going answers were sent unto John Davies and John Moone from Hugh Evans and my self speedily after the receiving of theirs and seeing that John Moone hath put forth a Book why did he not put forth all that had passed in writing between us but in stead of that he gathered a parcel of his own forged lyes against us as I shall make hereafter manifest Here followeth another scandalous Paper which was sent to us from John Moone and John Davies which is as followeth A reply unto the answer of Hugh Evans one of the blind Priests in Radnorshire in Wales which he hath made unto certain queries which was given unto him and John Price one of his followers by us who are known to the world by the names of John Moone and John Davies wherein their blindnesse and Ignorance is made manifest Answer Whereas thou sayest that repentance from dead works is the first principle of pure Religion herein is thy blindnesse and Ignorance made manifest unto all them which will not be wilfully blind and thou Hugh Evans art found

Spirit is distinct in offices operations and workings and in stead of the words operations offices and workings thou addest one from the other see how thou hast handled altered and perverted the man's words so with a parcel of the old Lesson in which we are judged and condemned he goeth on speaking of the true Worshippers and of the false applying the true to themselves and the false to the Baptists so leaving He begins with another lie In the latter end of his fourth Page he accuseth me of saying That there is another way besides light and darkness the which words never proceeded out of my mouth as many can witnesse who were there present But this is the root of the matter John Moone and his Brethren did use to hold forth that there is but two things viz. light and darkness God and the Devil the seed of the Woman and the seed of the Serpent Then I did inquire what that is that is called to repent and believe for the seed of the Woman cannot Eternally be damned and the seed of the Serpent cannot be saved Therefore there is something else that is in danger of being damned which by grace may be Eternally saved But at that time which he saith that I did contradict him in his Teaching it is not so but I accused him of being a false Prophet upon that which had passed between us at other times more then any thing that he had spoken then for when I came into the meeting-place one of the Quakers whose name is Hugh Lloyd and others whom he calls the Baptists were disputing so that I began to speak to Hugh Lloyd Whereupon John Moone replied and said unto me That I was a Blasphemer and the like termes which his mouth is full of so that the discourse began about the threenesse When he did put me to prove him to be a false Prophet the first thing that I did instance then was this Thou sayest that there is but two things that is God and the Devil Then he puts me to prove the third I said That it was man then he said something to this effect That man was one with God and became one with the Devil I replied that they were three distinct things in nature or essence but that I should say That they are one from the other is as true as that Hugh Evans should say That Christ and his Spirit were one from the other I would have the Reader know that we could not then have any orderly reasoning with these men therefore there cannot be as good account given of it as it might if they would observe order and yet they will cry out against confusion as much as any people And as he diminished from Hugh Evans his words so he addeth to my words for I said not One from another neither did I say three wayes but things So he pressed upon me to prove by Scriptures them to be three distinct things Then I produced the Scriptures which saith In the beginning God created the Heavens and the Earth Then In the beginning was God before there was man therein they were distinct or distinguished the one before the other the one being Eternal before all times the other having a beginning in time Thirdly I produced the third Chapter of Genesis in the beginning of the Chapter which sheweth the Devils coming to tempt man Then I asked Which of the three will you deny Then one of their Teachers named Hugh Lloyd said We deny man I would have the Reader to understand that there was so much disorder and confusion that it was in vain for me to proceed orderly to distinguish their natures properties and qualities for they were more like Oyster-women scoulding then moderate men reasoning or discoursing for many were speaking at once as their manner is and seldome had I any better termes then Serpent or Dog thou wouldest bite if thou couldest the Judgement and wrath of God is thy Portion with many more words of the like nature as these are I do not say That I do repeat all that hath passed between us that day neither can I but this I can say that I do not leave any thing unrepeated which doth destroy the sense of that which is repeated that I know of The pure holy wise Creator created all things and formed man in his own image but it is no less then blasphemy to say That God is formed or made therefore they are distinct or we must distinguish between the Creator and the Creature Again if there was no distinction to be made between God and man What need was there of Laws and Precepts to bind man upon penalty of death if broken and though the Text saith God created man in his own image it doth not follow that therefore no distinction is to be observed between the Creator and the Creature and further they are distinguished by their names for if there were no distinctions wherefore have they two names Also they differ in nature The nature of God was not nor is not subject to change nor alter But the nature of man was and is subject to alter Thus they were distinguished to be before man fell Now after the fall of man and after he had hearkened to the Devil and became partaker of his nature yet he became not presently a Devil for as man bore the image of God before the fall yet man was not very God before the fall neither is he very Devil after the fall Therefore it admitteth of many distinctions between God and man before the fall and also many distinctions between man and the Devil after the fall for if there be no distinctions between God and man before the fall then there was nothing to fall unlesse some part of God should fall which is no lesse then blasphemy to say that God nor any part of him should fall For he is the holy wise individual and unchangeable God Again if man after the fall was become a very Devil then there is nothing to be restored to the image of God but that which is or was a very Devil but there is something which shall be restored which is not nor was not wholly a Devil for it is written He took not upon him the nature of Angels but the seed of Abraham I had many times told this unconscionable lying man these or the like words That there was but two wayes or light and darknesse And man was the third thing which doth walk in one of the two wayes But this I alwayes did and do deny still that there is no union between men and the Devil but that which is by participating of his nature and not that they are essentially one And now in his fifth Page where he comes to give his judgment concerning it I find no difference between that which I said and that which he now saith in his Paper but onely this I said that man walked in one of these two ways and he saith And