aside all contention let vs seeke out of those heauenly oracles the assoiling of our questions And of the Arrian herericks who in that counsel were ouerthrown another saith thus Explicantes sacras scripturas illâ—s euertimus Socr. l. 1. c. 6. by opening and expounding the holy scriptures we overthrowe them The like rule was followed at the counsell helde at Constantinople against the hereticke Macedonius that denied the divinitie of the holy ghost neuer mooue question hereof saith Athanasius ad Serapion but learne of the holy scriptures for the onely proofes that you shall there finde are sufficient And in another place the same father saith Scripturae sufficiunt adveritatis instructionem siue institutionem â—â—ra Genâ—es â—â—l Idola the scriptures are sufficient to instruct vs in the trueth Marke I pray you the word Sufficiunt In the other two Councels also of Ephesus and Chalcedon â—vagrius we read of the same course all things were concluded by the wordes of the Evangelists and Apostles The auncient father Origen saith Rom. lib. 10.16 Vnde quà m propè periculis illi sunt c. See and consider in what daunger they be that haue no care to read the holy scriptures for by the same scriptures onely the iudgement of this triall must be allowed ierom hom 1. And in another place Necesse est nobis scripturas sanctas in testimonium vocare sensus quippe nostri enarrationes sine iis testibus non habent fidem VVe must needes call to witnesse the holy scriptures for our iudgements and expositions without those witnesses carry no credit a notable saying if it please you to marke it And with him S. Austen fully agreeth when he saith 〈◊〉 Naâ— Grat. â— Solis Canonicis scipturis sine vlla recusatione consensum debeo Onely to the Canonicall scriptures do I owe my consent without gainsaying The same father againe when he disputed against Petilian the Donatist â—â—c Vnit. Ecâ—les c. 3. said Let not these vvordes be heard betweene vs I say or you say but let vs rather speake in this wise thus saith the Lord. Auferantur de medio chartae nostrae procedat in medium codex dei contra liâ— Pâ— l. 3 c. 6. Away with our bookes and let Gods booke come in place Siue enim de Christo siue de Ecclesia siue de quacunque aliâre quae pertinet adfidem vitamque nostram non dicamsi nos c. For whether it be of Christ or of his Church or of any thing els what soeuer pertaining either to our life or to our faith I will not say if I my selfe but if an angel from heauen shall teach vs otherwise then we haue receiued in the bookes of the law and in the gospel holde him accursed This is the proofe saith he againe quae nec falli nec fallere potest de peccat mâ—â— remist l. 1. c. 2â— which can neither deceiue nor be deceiued To the verie same effect speake all the fathers I assure you if it were needfull to repeat their wordes I beseech you saith S Chrisostom weigh not what this man or that thinketh in 2. Cor. hoâ—â—â— but touching all things search the scriptures S. Hierom saith Quod de scripturis autoritatem non habet eadem â—acilitate contemnitur qua probatur in 23. Mat. that which is not warranted by the scriptures may as easily be contemned as alleadged And so the rest of the fathers particularly euery one and therefore good Mother weigh it and note it that albeit both heretiques deuills abuse the scriptures by alleadging them to euill endes yet is it the true way and the onely way to be resolued by and to finde rest for our consciences in all matter of controuersie touching either faith or manners so taken so taught so held by Christ by his Apostles and by all the godly fathers and worthy approoued Councels in the world M. I must confesse that if the scriptures bee rightly applyed they are indeede the sure foundation that ought to be stood vpon but howe shall that appeare that you apply them rightly more then those whome you acknowledge heretiques which likewise haue alleadged them S. Good mother giue me leaue to make make much of that which I gaine from you in this conference and to recken it vp as deere vnto my verie soule for the duty I owe you and for the desire I haue that the trueth may be revealed vnto you This therefore now you see and confesse that although all the hereticks in the world and all the diuels in hell should alledge scripture and abuse it yet hath it not bin giuen of God in vaine but serueth as a sure ground of our faith and actions euery thing beeing alowable that is consonant vnto it and that alwaies faultie which is contrarie vnto it and therefore that we ought not to be beaten from it by any deuise of Satan but stedfastly to stick vnto it and euer to depend vpon it as the only sure ancher of our soules in like manner as all those worthy men and Councels before mentioned haue done For what quietnes to my minde like to this Thou Lord hast commanded me thus to beleeue and thus to doe therefore I so beleeve and so doe Interpretatioâ— of scripture Only you sticke nowe at the right application of them and aske howe shall you know that Surely mother you shall know it euen to your full contentment if you will doe as others before you godly and holy persons both men women haue done lib. 83. quaest 〈◊〉 Saint Austen saith Solet circumstantia Scripturarum illuminare sententiam The circumstance of the scriptures is vvout to giue light and open the meaning thereof in Esai c. 19 Saint Hierome saith Moris est scripturarum obscuris manifesta subnectere It s the manner of the scriptures after harde thinges to ioyne other things that be plaine Tertullian saith Opertet secundum plura intelligi pauciora The fewer things must be expounded by the moe Hil. de Trin. 9. S. Hilary saith Intelligentia dictorum ex causa dicendi fumenda est the vnderstanding of things spokeÌ„ must be taken froÌ„ the cause of speaking theÌ„ expraepositis consequeÌ„tibus by things going before and following after S Cyril saith Cyr. Thâ—s l. â— c. 2. whensoeuer we woulde vnderstande any place of scripture we must consider three things the time when it was written the person that writ and to whome or of whom and the matter it selfe Many such good rules haue the fathers which as you see greatly help in the thing you desire and which if we vse no doubt we shall finde as they found then haue we the gratious promise of gods holy spirit if we aske it and what a sure guide is that the performance of which promise see in the Gospell c. 24. then opened he their vnderstanding that they might vnderstand the scriptures See it in
to the worldes ende Reade I beseech you the chapter your selfe and you shall see the fierce wrath of the Lord against them for this answere and for this doing He sweareth by his great name a dreadfull punishment that he will not vouchsafe to haue his name any more mentioned by them but he will watch ouer them for euill and not for good till they all be consumed by the sworde and by the famine with an vtter destruction This is the liking that God hath of following others before vs and of alleadging their examples without due care and consideration of their doings whether they were answerable to Gods word the rule of his liking and pleasure yea or no. By his Prophet Ezechiel againe he instructeth vs of his pleasure in this matter â— 20. v. 18. and deliuereth it for his absolute commandement In statutis patruÌ„ nolite ambulare vvalke ye not in the ordinances of your fathers neither obserue their manners meaning rashly vnadvisedly hand ouer head without examination howe these ordinances and manners pleased God For so saieth the prophet you may defile your selves either vvith Idols â— .19 or some other thing displeasing to God But if you vvill euer be sure and safe followe the true rule and the onely right vvay I am the Lord your God vvalke in my statutes keepe my commandements c. Which sound counsell the godly father had his eye vpon when he saide Non debemus attendere quid aliquis ante nos faciendum putauerit sedquid qui ante omnes est Christus prior fecerit vve may not regard what some before vs thought meete to be done but what he who vvas before all men Iesus Christ our deare Sauiour did that that is our rule in whatsoeuer we are to imitate him I cannot omit to remember Lactantius his wordes in this matter Deorum cultores libentèr errant stultitiae favent suae à quibus sirationem requiras per suasionis eius Institut l. 5. â— nulla possunt reddere sed ad maiorum iudicia confugiunt quòd illi sapientes fuerint The vvorshippers of many Gods saith he doe vvillingly erre and favour their owne folly of vvhome if you aske a reason of their perswasion and opinion they can giue none but straight flie to the iudgement of their forefathers saying they vvere wise men c. And is not this the verie answer of Romish Catholicks at this day Can they giue any reason a number of them but euen this now mentioned of heretickes and Idolatours I vvas borne and baptized in this faith and mine owne father and mother charged me vpon their blessing to be of this opinion c. they were as wise men and women as we and such like But how good these answers bee you see if you either regard scripture or fathers to be taught by them Lactantius nippeth this folly we see by his words and euer it shall be derided Our soules cost more then that should pinne them on any mens sleeues were they neuer so neere or deare vnto vs. Clemens Alexand hath the like good speach Alii dicuÌ„t im pium est si non colamus ea quae nobis tradita sunt à patribus nostris religionem praevaricamur à matoribus datam Hac ratione sicuius pater latro fuerit aut sicuius leno à patribus sibi traditam consuetudinem mutare no debet nec ad meliorem viam à paternis erroribus reuocari Others say it is a great wickednesse if we worship not those things which are by our forefathers deliuered vnto vs and we betray the religion of our fathers but by this reason if any mans father were a theife or a bawde he ought not to chaunge the custome deriued from his father nor be reduced to a better way from his fathers errour Thus derideth he againe this fonde kinde of argument My father did so and so his father before him again therefore I will doe so anâ vvill not bee persvvaded Yea assuredly thus haue euer all truely instructed derided it And it neuer was nor neuer shall be a fitte aunswere for a childe of God When I thinke of this matter sometimes I make a comparison betwixt the body and the soule and I aske of a Romish Catholicke whether if his father and diuers others of his auncestoures had a bodily disease whereof they died for want of skill to cure it he nowe hauing the same successiuely after them and the cure well knowen would yet wilfully die of his infirmity as his forefathers did rather then swarue from the example and be cured He will answere no. And yet in the matter of the soule which is farre aboue the bodie hath not grace to consider what an absurd answer it is to alleadge his father vnlesse he know by the rule of gods word that his father indeed was to be followed So you see deare mother both your questions answered and how it is no new matter but a very ancient subtiltie to entangle men and womens mindes with the examples of their forefathers because naturally we all reuerence and loue those of whome we are descended But it is no right way For we both may and ought sometimes to dissent from them and yet not sit in iudgement vpon them as though they were damned God beeing indeede able to saue them as we haue heard neither ought we thereby to take occasion of presumption to condemne the grace offered vs though denied to others as we ought not to refuse a bodily medicine to saue our life because our fathers know it not Surely if they had had the light that is vouchsafed vs they would haue excelled vs as farre as angels excell men M. I see sonne gods spirit bloweth where it listeth and happy is the man and woman whose eare he openneth To heare is good and either to stoppe our eaâ—e or to harden our heart with a premeditate opinion is most dangerous for as the Apostle perswadeth to hospitality because so men haue receiued angels into their houses so by hearing is god receiued who made the angels and by refusing to heare the doore is shut vpon him most dangerously and be excluded S. O deare Mother giue your owne flesh and blood leaue with knees of heart bowed before the Lord to reioyce for this your holy speech to praise the name of the most high whose mercy hath neither bottom nor measure and to beseech him for his sweete sonnes sake to goe forward in mercy and pitty towards his deceiued children that they may see their saluation in Iesus Christ embrace the trueth and be saued M. To this your prayer sonne I say with all mine heart amen But yet I haue not done with you I haue heard some say that if this way that you so dislike to follow the church of Rome and to beleeue as we are taught by the successours of Peter were to goe astraie why hath it not beene noted so till now of late yeares Can any of
it publikly in all partes or the most of Christendome since the happy time of our blessed Sauiour and therefore that our Church hath alvvaies bin a visible state though not so stately as they boast of theirs to their ovvne shame if Saint Augustin may be iudge vvho calleth Rome in regard of this pompe and pride the Western Babylon the second Babylon another Babylon de cinit d 16. c. 17. l. 1 22.27 the daughter of the former Babylon the earthly citie Yet for their further satisfaction I further aske of them doe not they thēselues say they beleeue all these former points doe they not stand vpon it that they haue euer so professed Is there any thing in there religion of more moment and vveight or any other part of doctrine besides these absolutely necessarie to saluation vvhy then doe they aske vs vvhere and by vvhome this religion of ours vvas professed before Luthers time May vve not vvell and charitably affirme that it vvas professed in Fraunce Spaine and Italy yea in Rome euer since first Rome embraced the gospell preached by the Apostles Doubtlesse I am persvvaded that many thousands euen nowe in these countries where the popes keyes preuaile doe truely hold the 12. articles of the Apostles creede and Athanasius his creede which he calleth the Catholike faith with all the other points of doctrine set down before which if they doe holding the foūdation though they build vpon it woode hay 〈◊〉 3. or stubble that is some erroneous doctrine yet they are the true Church of God and shall be saued A pearle is a pearle though in an heape of dust wine is wine though mingled with water and wheate is wheate though couered with much chaffe and is not the mysterie of godlinesse whereof Paul speaketh god manifested in the flesh 〈◊〉 3. iustified in the spirit seene of Angels preached vnto the Gentils beleeued on in the world receiued vp in glorie still the mysterie of godlinesse and that trueth and sure foundation whereō the house of god is builded though matter vnsutable vnto it be laide vpon it yes verely And therefore seing the Church of Rome hath euer held the misterie of godlinesse though mingled with many dregs of mens inuentions I doubt not but God hath euer had a people amongst them and a true Church more then 7000. which haue not bowed the knee vnto Baal what we are to thinke of their leaders and teachers which indeed haue corrupted this doctrine with their owne leauen and endeauoured by all meanes to shut vp and obscure this mysterie is another question especially for those that haue done it wilfully and malitiously and died in that malice But of the rest thus we iudge and thus we answere that so many as truely holde and professe all the former articles of doctrine as I assure my selfe many doe are fellowe members with vs in the same mysticalll bodie whereof Christ is the head And therefore our church hath euer beene in theirs though not euer so manifest to the eye of the worlde as it was for the space of the first fiue hundred yeares Me thinkes this answere should well content them and fully satisfie them being so charitable towards them But to giue them an answere of their owne and by themselues to let them see that the true Church is not alwaies so visible as they pretende They knowe that nowe in England they haue not authoritie to countenance their religion and Church and yet they say that they haue a Church amongest vs and where they dare well say it they are bold to say it is a great one yea the greter part though I trust they shall neuer prooue it in that number Why then in persecution and when the Lord punisheth the vnthankefulnesse of men with taking awaie our publike and autorised assemblies may not we as well haue a church holding the true faith of Christ according to his word as they now a flocke cleauing to the Bishop of Rome M. Rome hath alwaies beene called the Mother Church and they doe ioyne with that Rome is not he mother Church S. Howe can Rome be the mother church when shee is later then those first churches of Hierusalem and Antioche Can a mother be yonger then her daughters or her daughters elder then their mother The very scriptures teach vs that all churches and euen Rome it selfe haue risen out of the Churche of Hierusalem Fou out of Sion shall his lavve come and the word from Hierusalem M. You answer me well that Rome cannot be the mother Church of al because other churches haue beene before her Neuertheles of this Church of England shee is rightly the mother because this land receiued the faith frō her first by Eleutherius the Pope and martir who sent Daminianus and Fugatius to teach it to the Britanes at the request of their king who was then Lucius and after by Gregory the great who sent Augustine and Melitus with other holy priests to teach our auncestours the english who then were planted here and had remooued the Brittaines into an other corner S. Deare mother all this you are taught and told by them who abuse gods people bought with his pretious blood But it hath beene answered truely that this can not be so For first Eleuth confesseth in his answer to king Lucius his message that he had the scriptures wherin were the lawes of God farre more to be regarded then the Romane lawes he praiseth his zeale and telleth him that out of the scriptures with the aduise of his counsell he might draw conuenient lawes for his kingdome he beeing in his owne land Christs vicar c. Howe then was Eleutherius his first Apostle Againe doth not Nicephorus plainely saie in his story Simō Zelotes doctrinam Evangelij ad occidentalium Oceanum in sulasque Brittanicas perfert Lib. 2. c. 40 Simon Zelotes carried the doctrine of the gospell vnto the west Ocean sea and vnto the Islandes of Britraine This was before Eleutherius Doe not others write that Ioseph of Arimathea did it hat S. Paul in his passage this way into Spain did it and alleadge authors for it Might not the Greekes doe it or some others since euidently it appeareth by Eleutherius his own cōfession he was not the first Then for Augustine and the rest doe not these plaine testimonies of the fathers vsually alleadged to this end satisfie any man liuing not way warde that this land had the faith before him and them Tertullian liued about the yeare of our Lord 210. And his words are these Brittannorum in accessa Romanis loc a subduntur Christo 〈◊〉 Iudaeos The countries of Britane which the Romanes coulde never attaine vnto are now subiect to Christ Origen about the yeare 212 writeth Ezech. hom Terra Brittanniae in religionem Christi consensit The land of Britane hath yeelded to Christ his religion ◠Apolog. 2. Athanasius about the yeare three hundred thirtie foure hath the like
made him thinke when he heard of Christ that Iohn was risen againe whome he had beheaded In the Acts of the Apostles certaine Iewes more then fortie men bound theÌ„selues with an oath that they would neither eat nor drinke till they had slaine Paule 〈…〉 And must they needes either kill that blessed Apostle or pine themselues to death by refusing food because they had sworne God forbidde I assure my selfe you like better of the Apostles words we must obey God rather then men And god saith thou shalt do no murther Gehezy in the booke of the kings sware that he vvould followe after Naaman and take somwhat of him he kept that vnlawfull oath and by the feareful plague that fel vpon him you may see and satisfie your selfe howe it pleased God Dauid a man worthie following tooke another course as we reade in his storie when he had sworne to kill Naball and not to leaue a man of his house to looke vppon a wall yet meeting with his wife Abigail by the way and admonished by her of so hard a course he changed his minde blessed God that had sent her as a mean to saue him from shedding blood and thought so wel of the woman that after the death of her husband he married her Had Dauid said as deceiued soules nowe a daies doe I haue sworn and I must keepe mine oath greatly had he sinned against the Lord to his owne hurt This is an example chronicled vp of God in his owne booke to be followed of all those that feare him An oath is ordained of God to ende strife beeing lawfully taken and to strengthen truth Firma mentu veriâ—aâ—â—on vinculum iniquitatis but in no case to be vniculum iniquitatis a bond to tie vs to iniquity Most worthily therfore answered Agesilaus when one said Thou hast promisea Yea if it be iust saith he otherwise loquutus sum non promisi I spake but it vvas no promise meaning that no promise should be vrged beyond right May we thinke that he by the light he had would haue stood vpon a wicked oath no no assuredly Non praestabit fides quod exhibuit infidelitas Faith may not performe vhat vvant of faith vnlawfully svvare and vowed By the commoÌ„ law which is â—he Popes owne law who sware in his heat was to be enioined pennance because calor iracundiae non excusat à toto sed à tanto The heate of anger excuseth not from all fault but from so great a fault neither are they to be accounted periured who can shewe impossibilitie or impietie in their performaÌ„ce your hart meant not to sweare to euill it then it prooue euil and so you change the fault is in the matter not in you M. What shall such do then S. Surely choose rather to aske god barrely mercy for a rash and ignorant oath theÌ„ by keeping the same to adde sinne vnto sinne yea a farre greater to a lesser for in presumption to offend is the next consin to the sin against the holy ghost Beware that saying in the Psalm 〈…〉 They encourage themselues in mischeife that is are bold and hardie to take heart to do euill after they are tolde of it and knowe that it is euill Remember that in Gods law there was a sacrifice appointed to make an attonement for one that had sworne to doe euill â—vit 5. sal 5â— A sacrifice also remaineth now euen a troubled spirit sorrowful for mine vnaduised oath mine vnlawfull and wicked oath against my God against my prince against my country to obey a forrainer a straunger whome I neuer saw neuer am like to see against mine own soules health and to my endlesse woe O Lord O Lord a broken contrit heart thou shalt neuer despise and therfore strengthen thy poore creature to turne vnto thee and rather to lament one sinne then still still to sin and so by an imagination of constancy to perish eternally for their contumacy M. Amen sonne amen for sure it is plaine that you haue saide to this point and sweet is trueth when one doth tast it But the worlde is so full of prittle prattle when a man turneth that one will be ashamed to heare their speech 〈…〉 some are hindred euen thus S. No questioÌ„ mother but Satan vseth this amongest other meanes to keepe some backe froÌ„ the truth The prâ—â—â— iâ— pratle of the world keepe some from tâ—â— truth it is a known weaknes in our nature to shrinke at the talk of meÌ„ But the proverb is old a wonder lasteth but 9. nights folly will die and trueth get strength god is in this chaunge and it cannot doe ill Ang. de 〈◊〉 5. c. 1â— To haue it verified of vs which Christ spake of his enemies is a fearefull thing namely that they loued the praise of men more then the praise of God The blessed Apostle saith Ioh. 1â— â—â— Goe I about to please men surely If I should doe so I were not the servant of Christ And why Our Sauiour Christs words giue one reason Gal. 1. â—0 because such cannot be tru beleeuers For how can they beleeue saith he which receiue honour one of another and seeke not the honour vvhich commeth of God alone There is extant in print a little booke containing the recantations of William Tedder and Anthony Tyrrel sometime two seminarie priests of the English colledge in Rome as they were seuerally pronounced by them at Pauls crosse in the yere 1588. wherein they both shew what letted theÌ„ in their times to be reformed first W. Ted saith one great cause was this we now speak of the feare of wordly shame temporall discredit but saith he I did not consider then or I cared not for that sentence of our sauiour Every one that confesseth me before men him vvill I confesse also before my father vvhich is in heauen 〈◊〉 10. and whosoeuer shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and a sinfull nation the sonne of man shall be ashamed of him 〈◊〉 8. â— when he commeth in the glory of his father with his angells This was the cause that made me take a preposterous way turning all things to mine owne credit when I should haue turned them to the glory of God according to our Sauiours councell seeke first the kingdome of God c. So thinking to get credit by mine obstinacy 〈◊〉 6. I did loose saith he the fauour of God the loue of my soueraigne and the good will of all true subiects The other cause saith he was the tickling of vainglorie and this I am sure doth hold most of the contrarie side in their peruerse obstinacy howesoeuer they bragge that they seeke nothing by their dealings but the glorie of God I thought it a goodly thing and worthie commendation to defend an euill cause by probable reasons yet I know it was a hard thing for Anaxagoras to prooue that snow was blacke or incke white