all his commandements and who hath greater authority upon the earth then they that are visible Saints and what makes men visible Saints if not the manifestation of their obedience to God the Father and Christ his sonne in the practise of all his Ordinances and not to have some other Presbyters present with them to assist them as you affirme for by these other Presbyters I know not yet who you meane And whereas you say that the Church may be led into errours or kept in a low estate by unfit Pastors and Elders I answer It is a cleare truth as wofull experience teacheth us who live here in the Land of England And whereas you affirme that visible Saints cannot ordaine Officers because they have no gifts of prayer I Answer Here you make prayer the Ordination of Ministers And whereas you say they are not able to conceive prayer Here you give the holy Ghost the lie for Beleevers have received the Spirit of adoption to cry Abba Father But say you they cannot conceive prayer according to the action in boâ—â— Here you would seeme to make beleevers which have the Spirit of God to leade them into all truths more voide of common reason then men that have but gifts of nature Againe you say they have not gifts to make publike exhortation and admonition To which I answer If they had first knowledge to feele the want of a Pastor and also divers able men out of whom to elect and ordaine a Pastor then they out of whom this person is chosen are able to exhort and to admonish for he that hath not the gift of teaching may have the gift of exhortation againe the man that undertaketh to teach others ought to be taught by God and likewise to be able by sound Doctrine to withstand the Gainesayers but a man may give good exhortations and that publikely that is not able to withstand the Gainesayers by â—ound Doctrine By this you may see the Church of God can never be without some Ministers except it be according to that spoken by Zachaâ—iah in the day of very small things indeede when God shall take away their Ministers by death prison or exile for seeing the Churches were planted by Ministers of Gods owne ordaining therefore they were not without Ministers in the very beginning and still the Churches are planted by the Ministeriall power of the Lord Jesus which cannot be exercised without fit instruments Yet that they must want the word preached or Sacraments administred till they have Pastors and Teacher in Office is yet to be proved but that page of Mr. Robinsons which hath beene alledged before is sufficient for this present purpose against you even to prove that the family must not be unprovided for either for the absence or neglect of a Steward But now you seeme to insinuate an affirmation or a supposition I cannot well tell whether That a ruleing Elder may be destitute of the guift of discering and seeme to imply that if he be destitute then all the Church must be destitute if there be no more Officers then be Here you would faine make the ruling Elders the eyes of the Church and then all the rest of the body must be blinde and so unfit to have any hand in election and also voide of the Spirit of Grace to discerne the gifts by though it hath beene proved unto you before that she is the greatest of all having the Spirit of God to leade her into all truth being the Spouse of Christ and endowed with all his riches gifts and donations And thus you still deny the Authority ability of the Church giving to the persons in office all power and deserning But this is indeede according to your practise here in England but not according to the minde and Spirit of God And for the neighbour Churches Counsell I deny not but that it may be imbraced and the Saints have cause to praise God for any helpes of Gods ordaining But if they want the helpe of a neighbour Church to Counsell them or neighbour Ministers to direct them yet if they be a Church of Jesus Christ they have as hath beene said before power among themselves to elect and ordaine their owne Officers as also the Spirit of discerning whereby to try their gifts and yet be farre from falling into that evill which they complaine against in the Episcopacie namely for one man to have the sole power of Ordination By all these particulars you may clearely see all your pretended proofes and former assertions disproved as I promised you in the entrance of this my answer to your second Reason So that these two first Reasons being as I conceive the greatest Champions which you have sent out in this skirmage are now both slaine and made voide of all the life that ever was in them for they were made most of suppositions and of things that appeared unto you by likelihood without any ground from the Scriptures and of some other thing than Gods Word allowed and of some triviall affirmations which were not grounded upon any truth of Gods Word Now these two being thus turned aside by one of the meanest of all the Army of Jesus Christ you may justly feare that all the rest of your souldiers will run away wounded IN your third Reason You say it is not to be thought that Christ would institute such a Government of his Church which affords no helpe nor allowes no way or remedy for innocent persons that are wronged Which thing I grant to be very true but touching the means and helpes which you pleade for that is some other Synods to appeale unto I tell you I know not what Synods you meane But this I affirme that there are no larger Synods to be kept to settle Church differences then the comming together of the Ministers and Brethren as it is mentioned in the 15th of the Acts which I have granted you in my Answers to your former Reasons And whereas you strive for appeales I Answer It is the rule of Christ that if one brother doe trespasse against another and if the brother offending will not be reclaimed by the private admonition of the brother offended he is to be admonished by one or two other brethren with him but if he will not heare them the brother offended is to tell the Church and if he will not heare the Church then he is not to be accounted a brother but as a Heathen man and a Publican if not as a brother then out of the fellowship then if the wrong be any personall injury as oppression or fraud or any other sinne of these natures the Law is open where he may appeale for Justice to the Magistrate in any part of the Kingdome where-ever he liveth but if it be a matter of scandall as if hee should be a drunkard or incontinent or the like then he hath sufficient remedy when such a one is cast out of his society By this you may see
to pray for the Kingdome of God to come we are not to limit it to this that Christ may come to rule in us onely but that-he may rule as a King in the heart of all his chosen Neither ought wee alone to acknowledge praises but wee ought to desire that prayses to God may be acknowledged by others also and that they may grant the Kingdome and power and glory to be his not that he should be a King onely to rule in the hearts of men but also that he may rule and governe the actions of the bodies of men in his outward worship as we are commanded to glorifie God with our bodies and soules and the reason is because they are his 1 Cor. 6. 20. Now if our bodies and soules be Gods then it must needs be granted that it is in spirituall worship for in all civill things it hath beene acknowledged already that both bodies and lives are our soveraigne Lord the Kings in whose Land we dwell Now if there were any forme of prayer for men to bind themselves unto it would have beene shewed either in this Scripture or in some other which thing you have not yet proved That they were not tied to this forme of words is plaine by another Evangelist which doth not use the same words but addeth some and leaveth out other some and also the whole forme of thankesgiving is left out by Luke Luke 11. 2. 3. 4. Compared with Matth. 6. 9. and to seeke the helpe of any booke but the Bible to teach men to pray is to disable God which hath promised to give Beleevers his Spirit whereby they shall cry Abba Father c and that that Spirit should leade them into all truth and bring all things to their remembrance d Therefore a forme of prayer for men to tie themselves unto cannot be sufficient and pleasing to God though it were never imposed by any Thirdly you lay another slander upon us as though we should affirme that Christian Princes and Magistrates who are defenders of the Faith have no more to doe in and about the Church then Heathen Princes This is not true for we know that Christian Princes and Magistrates ought to be members of Christs Church and so being they may be Officers in the Church And if they be Defenders of the Faith they be such as defend the pure worship of God manifested in his Word as also the true professors thereof and that against all tyrannicall power that shall attempt to suppresse either it or them as the good Kings of Judah and Israel did by slaying the Servants and Prophets of Baal who had slaine the Lords people But Heathen Kings cannot be said to be members of the Church of Christ before they know Christ and then they become Christian Kings Therefore to vent upon all occasions such principles as you see wee hold and maintaine is not as you say dangerous and insufferable neither are the people But you say further that the people for a great part of them are heady and refractory and proud and bitter and scornfull and dispisers of authoritie and that they will not suffer publike prayers to be prayed but that by their gesture and threatning of the Ministers they have laboured to hinder the use of them And these people I gather from your owne words are the professors in England and especially in the city of London and it is very like to be so because they were there at the time of your service for neither the Separates nor Semiseparates as you call them use to be there at the time of your service for ought I know and these Professors you have also called Idle busibodies tatlers also as it is said 1 Tim. 5. 13. very wanton in their wits say you affecting novelties in Religion and liking of points that are not established nor commonly held and these you say are many of the professors * And in your second Reason against Toleration Pag. 24. you say that the mindes of multitudes of the Professors in England and especially in this citie are upon all occasions very apt to fall to any way in Doctrine or Discipline that is not commonly received by the Church c. But I tel you you ought not to blame any for withstanding any thing in Gods worship which is not grounded in his Word Neither if the whole body of the worship there tendred be the invention of man ought any of them to be blamed for opposing such a worship because it is according to their Protestation Yet I justifie none that will oppose disorderly as either by casting up of hats or threatning the Minister or any the like unseemely behaviour for I judge it better for them to depart in peace if they have not faith in the action performed But methinkes Mr. Edwards you have foulely missed it in that you have thus vilified your brethren to call them by the names of those mockers which Paul testified should come in the last time that should be heady and high minded and proud boasters and dispisers of authority for such as these have not the power of godlinesse and by this you make your Church a foule Church and defile shrewdly your owne nest and make it appeare to all men that you live in a Cage of uncleane birds therefore you are commanded from such to turne aside * if the feare of God be in your heart Moreover You say you feare they will not tolerate the Government established by the Ecclesiasticall and civill Lawes and you would faine father the cause of this your feare upon Separates and Independancie whereas you cannot be so ignorant but that you must know that the government established by Law may stand without the leave of Separates for they have neither power to give toleration nor to prohibit toleration for or against any thing But you say you would rather pray against toleration than prophesie of the wofull effeâ—ts of it I answer if you can make such a prayer in a time acceptable then sometimes such prayers will be accepted which are not grounded upon Gods Word But of the wofullest effects of toleration you have prophesied already in that you say they will withstand your Doctrine and your dues * and that will be a wofull effect indeede when you shall be driven to cry out Alas alas that great city Babylon for in one houre is so great wealth come to desolation Thus much for your Seventh Reason IN your Eight Reason you affirme That these Independant men where they have power as in New-England will not tolerate any Churches or Government but in their owne way In using the word these you carry the matter so darkely that I know not whom you meane for you have named none But you seeme to say they be men that have power in New England I answer Indeede it may happen to be so That there may be some men there that take upon them authority to binde mens consciences
you so void of true piety towards that Honourable House or judge you that House so void of common Reason being as they are indeede the very Eyes of the whole land the Eares of the whole land and the Tongue of the whole land yea the hand and power of the whole land being so as I conceive in my simplicity would you have them I say to be blinde of one eye and to looke upon the Petitions and complaints of some of the people of the land and not upon all would you have them so partiall would you have them also deafe of one â—are that they should not hearken to the cries and petitions and complaints of all the Kings subjects one as well as another would you have them also so defective in their tongue that they should not be for the praise of them that doe well as well as for the punishment of evill doers nay seeing they are called Gods * would you have their hands so shortned that they should not once stretch them forth to support and helpe the poore afflicted members of Jesus Christ Then indeede you would have them very unlike unto Moses even as unlike as your selves are unto Aaron Would you have this House to exercise their power upon persons before they have made due triall of the cause by hearing witnesses speake on both sides truely Mr. Edwards if you would as it appeareth plaine it is your minde then I will submit to the judgement of both the Houses of Parliament whether you be not a man void of common Reason for he is a foole that judgeth a matter before he know it And you are not onely void of Reason your selfe but you would have the Parliament to be like you for if the Parliament should judge a man before they heare his cause they would be like the Court at Lambeth which were used to sit in the high Priests Hall judgeing matters without due triall Further you say you are perswaded that it will never be said of this Parliament that they opened a doore for Toleration For Answer to this I must tell you that I conceive they may receive a Petition and yet not open a doore for Toleration I meane for such a Toleration as you here speake of for setting up Churches against Churches for that is not the Toleration that we pleade for but your evill conclusion And therefore you may pray if you will that that doore may be kept shut And we will pray also that all doores may be kept shut that will let any evills into the Kingdome in processe of time least that any succeeding generations should have cause to write in their Chronicles of this Parliament as it was written of Naaman the Syrian that is as you say it will be said of them but they granted a Toleration Moreover we desire nothing at their hands that may cast a darke shadow upon their glorious light But that which we desire is liberty of conscience to practise Gods true worship in the land wherein we were borne which will be no blemish to any Christian Magistrate to grant nor for any Counsell of state to establish And therefore you should not have concluded this your Discourse against independancie and against Toleration before you had offered it to the triall before some lawfull Committee chosen by the Parliament to heare both you and them and then if you could have maintained your Churche of England which you plead for with your Synods and Counsells Ceremonies and Booke-worship Canons and Sensures Citations Degradations and Excommunications with your Absolutions to be founded upon the substance of that Worship and Discipline which you say Calvin affirmeth is expressed in the Scriptures then you might with the more shew of honesty have admoninished the Parliament to have cast out their Petitions but till then you may lay your hand upon your mouth and never for shame affirme that the granting of Toleration unto us to worship God without molestation will be setting up Churches against Churches Neither ought you to have concluded against them before you had proved their way of worship to be contrary to the word of God or not to have footing in his word as yours hath not for except you had done this you have small cause to rejoyce in your thoughts in respect of the accounts that you are to give about this coutraversie for your contraversie can be conceived at the best to be but the contraversie that Paul had when he went unto Damascus which was a Contraversie against Christ * though Christ in his rich grace pardoned him when hee had smitten him downe and driven him out of himselfe and made him to confesse that he knew not Christ in these words where hee saith LORD WHO ART THOV and further acknowledged that he knew not the will of Christ by asking him with these words WHAT WILT THOV HAVE ME TO DOE thus you may see though the controversie was against Christ yet Paul was reconciled to God the Father by Iesus Christ the Sonne and endued with the holy Ghost which made him a Minister of the New Testament which all his humane learning could not doe And Paul might have boasted that he was stirred up by the Spirit of God against the way of Christ as you boast that you are stirred up by Gods Spirit against the way of Separation But that would not have justified Paul much lesse shall it justifie you for Paul did that hee did out of a zeale to maintaine the Law of God But yours is to maintaine the Law of Sinne even the Law of Sathan Paul persecuted those that he did conceive to be evill but you persecute those that you acknowledge good men and such as have beene active and famous for God And therefore you have no neede to boast of the Spirits enabling you all along and that above your owne strength as you declare for it may plainely appeare unto all men of understanding that it was the very spirit of delusion And therefore you may justly expect Censures and Reproaches as you say you doe because your way in this action was not pleasing to God But for my part instead of censuring you I would rather reprove you and admonish you rather than reproach you and pray that God might turne you And if God would be pleased to give you that reward of your labour which hee gave unto Paul even to strike you downe and to make you to heare his voyce and learne to know him and what he would have you to doe then it would turne much to the praise of God and to the comfort of your poore soule if you be a chosen vessell unto him which is the thing you pretend you aime at and then you shall be sure to gaine truth and love and peace and holinesse in all your after discourses when you shall speake with a new tongue and expresse the language of Canaan And now Mr. Edwards for conclusion of the whole I doe here affirme that if
1. 18. to which I send you to learne better Further you alleadge That if they be ordained it is by persons who are not in office Now if you meane they have no office because they are not elected ordained and set apart by the Clergie to some serviceable adminiâ—â—ation I pray you tell me who ordained the Apostles Prophets and Evangelists to their worke or Ministry If you will say they were ordained of God I will grant it and doe also affirme that God hath promised the supply of them to the end of the world as before hath beene mentioned from Ephe. 4. As also it appeares by Pauls charge to Timothy 2 Tim. 2. 2. That what things he had heard of him among many witnesses the same he should commit to faithfull men who should be able to teach others also but I verily doe beleeve that as Titus so Timothy heard of Paul that Elders must be ordained by Election in every city and that Titus was as much bound to communicate the things unto others which he had learned of Paul as Timothy was and Timothy we know was to teach faithfull men and those faithfull men were to teach others those things that they had heard of Timothy among which things Ordination was one as it was delivered to Titus and we are not to doubt of Timothius faithfulnesse in the declaring of this part of his message more than the rest but if those to whom Timothy delivered it were not faithfull in the discharge of their duty but that in due time the Ordinances might possibly grow out of use as the Churches did by little and little apostate yet that hinders not but that it was still written in the Scripture that the generations to come might recover againe the right use of the Ordinances when God should by his Spirit direct them to know the same Moreover I affirme that all the Lords people that are made Kings and Priests to God have a free voyce in the Ordinance of Election therefore they must freely consent before there can be any Ordination and having so consented they may proceede to Ordination notwithstanding they be destitute of the Counsell or assistance of any neighbour Church as if there were no other Churches in the Land but onely one company of beleevers joyned together in fellowship according to Christs institution The promise made in the 14th of Iohn 12. 13. is made unto them where Christ said The workes that he did they should doe â—sâ— that whatsoever they should aske in his name that he would do for theâ— that the Father may be glorified and that the Spirit of truth should â—â—ide with them for ever And that he should teach them all things and bring all things unto their remembrance as it is said in the following verses of the same Chapter This you may see is the portion of beleevers and they that have this portion are the greatest in the world and many of them are greater than one but many joyned together in a comely order in the fellowship of the Gospell according to the Scriptures are the greatest of all and therefore have power to ordaine and to blesse their Ministers in the name of the Lord Thus the lesser is blessed of the greater Now Mr. Edwards I hope you will confesse that you spake unadvisedly when you affirmed The maintenance of Independensie was the breaking of Gods Ordinance and violating of that Order and constant â—â—y of Ministers recorded in the Word To this I Answer that if the Church doe elect one he must be elected out of some more those that are not elected may be as able to blesse the Church in the name of the Lord as he therefore one of these who are not elected being chosen by the whole Church to blesse him in the name of the Lord whom the Church hath ordained is the hand of the whole who are greatest of all and so a sufficient Officer for that worke which hee is put a part to doe Thus you may see Mr. Edwards that we doe not hold Ordination extraordinary and temporary neither doe we hold it the least of Gods Institutions for we have respect unto them all But that nothing in matter of Order hath so cleare and constant a practise as this as you do affirme and also say the whole frame of Church and Discipline hath not so much ground in the word for it as this I deny and doe affirme that not onely this but all Gods Ordinances have as much ground and footing in Gods Word also Yet notwithstanding you say that Calvin confesseth that there is no expresse precept concerning the imposition of hands Hath the imposition of hands no footing in Gods Word and yet hath not all the forme of Gods Worship so much footing as it Here Mr. Calvin and you will now pin all the forme of Church and Discipline upon unwritten verities Further you rehearse confusedly the opinion of Zanchius to strenghen yours who say you would have the example of the Apostles and ancient Church to be more esteemed of and to be instead of a command I pray you how doe you know it to be their example if it be not written And whereas you alledge that Zanchius saith it is no vaine Ceremony but the holy Spirit is present to performe things inwardly which are signified by this Ordinance outwardly I have granted you that already where I affirme that the Church having the Spirit of God hath power by an instrument of her owne chusing to blesse the party to his worke in the name of the LORD and I am also bound to beleeve that God will accompany that his owne Ordinance which is performed by them outwardly with his owne Spirit inwardly to furnish the party so blessed by them with the knowledge of the Scripture which is able to furnish the man of God to every part of his duty And thus you may see that we have not departed from Christs way nor gone any other way in things concerning his House and Officers then he hath directed And whereas you demand for what cause Paul left Titus at Crâ—â—te I answer that I have told you before that it was to communicate the things unto others which hee had learned whereof Ordination was one And no doubt but hee declared the same to faithfull men that they might teach others also therefore he was there employed in preaching of the Gospell as well as if he had gone preaching with Paul The next thing you goe upon is the triall of the gifts of Ministers and this you attribute to them which have the greatest measure of the Spirit for you say Examination belongeth to the most skilfull and they who have most authority All these things are well allowed of by us for who hath a greater measure of the Spirit than beleevers and who hath more skill than he that hath beene trained up in the Schoole of Christ and hath learned this Lesson to be obedient to his Master Christ in keeping of