reiected as false deceitful But whan ye speake of the spirite ye doe vnderstond a bare creature For your spirit is not the holy ghost but a carnall affection Sy. Ye dooe yet without any scriptures of the Bible enhaunce and magnifie the letter Io. Not so but rather we here ground ourselues bothe vpon y e scriptures of god and vpon examples Sy. Shew therfore y t the truthe muste be tryed by the scriptures not rather w t a fre spirit without scriptures Io. By thy wordes doe I perceine what thinge doeth begile you that is y t ye do seuer these .ii. thinges beyng vnited inuisebly knitted together y t is to saie the spirite the scriptures which can nor ought to be separated asunder the one from y e other For whē we name y e scriptures we doe vnderstande y e expressed worde of y t spirit For as y e voice or sound of y e worde can in no wise be separated from y e lyuely breth of y e liuing creature So y e scriptures can not be diuided from y e spirit y t inspireth thē for y e scripture is y e expressed wil of god but now wil I bryng y e testimonies places w t thou requirest our lord Iesu Christ vnto whom y e heuēly father did geue witnes from heuen who hath receiued the holy ghost after no measure did not despise y e sciptures in so muche that he dyd corroborate all his saiynges by them onely and did commaund that the Iewes should trye both his woordes and factes by the scriptures Ihon. v. and Luke xvi He biddeth them to lyfte vp their eyes to Moyses the prophetes and not to apparaunte spirites He reprouyng also the Saduceis did shewe that this was the cause of their errour be cause that they were ignoraunt in scriptures or neglected them Mark .xii. The Apostles as we may vnderstand by the booke of the Actes did receiue abundātly in the beginyng the holy gost that by a sertaine visible tokē And yet not withstandyng did thei not therfore forsake or contēne y e scriptures nor boste their spirite against thē But rather did proue strengthen all their sermons with the worde of god preachyng nothyng els but the pure and playne scriptures These thynges are euydently proued by the epistels of Peter Iohn doeth plainely shewe and teache that the spirites owght to be tried whether thei bee of god or not .i. Io. iiii Wherby it is euydent enowgh that spirites owght to be tried and that thei be not so free as the Anahabtistes will haue them And how thei muste bee proued it is manifestly declared in y t place Paule whiche was rauisshed in to the thyrde heauen and dyd learne his gospel of Iesu Christ beyng hym selfe the chosen vessel of god full of the holy ghost and heauenly wisedome neuer the lesse before the kyng Agrippa he doeth testify that he dyd teache nothyng beside Moises and the prophetes Act. xxvi In the epistell to the Galathians y e first chapter he saieth thus if I or an angel of heauen shulde preach vnto you any other thīg then ye haue harde let it be anathema or acursed He also warnyng and teachyng Tymothe that be shoulde beware of false and erroneous doctrines dyd directe and sende hym to the redyng of scriptures But reade thou the iii. chapiter of the seconde epistell to Tymothe and it shall appere what we owght to iudge and thynke of the Anababtistes secte what of the spirite and of the scriptures Sy. That place is knowen well enowghe and I am almost persuaded But this vexed my mynde that Paule saieth that a spirituall man iudgeth all thynges but he is iudged of no body Ioiada I longe to knowe of the of what spirite Paule doeth speake there Symon But I haue leauer to heare it of the Ioiada Considre the woordes y t go before For he saieth thus We haue not receiued the spirit of the world but the spirit whiche is of god that we may know what thynges haue ben geuen vnto vs by Chryst Symon But to what purpose did Paul speke here of the holy ghost Ioiada I aske of the wheather y t same selfe spirite dyd not inspyre the scriptures Symon Truely that same selfe spirite Ioiada Seyng therfore that it is all one and bothe the same spirite that Paule speaketh of here and that whiche speaketh in the scriptures haue I not proued that Paule by a spirituall man did not vnderstond hym which boasteth I can not tell what spirite despisyng in the meane season the scriptures but suche a spirituall man as is and will be ruled and gouerned by the holy ghost that waie that he sheweth and expresseth hym selfe in the holy scriptures He therfore that striueth againste the holy scripture and inspiracyon of the holy ghost can not bee that spirituall man whome Paule doeth speke of Now if he be not spirituall he can not iudge but he muste be iudged The Anababtistes therfore can iudge nothyng but ought to bee iudged and tryed by the worde of god Hathe not here the spirite of the Anababtistes lost bothe his win ges But I do remembre other ii places whiche dooe vtterly stoppe the mouthes of the Catababtistes The first is in the .x. chapiter of the Actes touchyng Cornelius the centurion which although he was elected by god yet not withstandyng beyng so tawght by the angell did sende messangers to fetche Peter y t he migh heare by hym the preachīg of our sauiour Iesu christ If that the spirite should disanulle and abolisshe the scriptures it shulde folow y t this outwarde preachyng and such like thinges wer done in vaine The other is in the .xvi. chapiter concernyng the Thessaloniens whiche after that thei had harde the preachyng of Paule dyd daily seke and serche the scriptures to knowe wheather Paule dyd teache true or not Which thing thei wolde not haue done if the spirites shoulde not be tried by the scriptures wherefore what so euer the Anababtistes dooe teache concernyng this thynge is false and erroneous and not vnlike vnto the errour of Montanus Sym. What monstruous thyng is y t Ioiada This Montanus about .xiii. hundred yeres a go was a great heretike who did almost speake of the spirite as the Anababtistes dooe For thei do cal in again the old abolisshed errours as it shall appere hereafter Sym. Go forth I praie y e and let vs discusse the argumentes of the second conclusion For I can not beleue that none of the saynttes whiche thyng thou doest affirme stifly did thruste them selues into the office of common preachers excepte thei were called What other thyng is this but as the bisshop of Rome hath done in times paste to hyde the truthe frome the commons that none saue onely thei that are learned dare speake and talke of it Where as not withstandynge god did manifest him self to the littell ones and not to the wise Mathew xi Ioiada I will doe it
not admyt the scripture to be iudge but referre al thynges to theyr interpretation and spiritee Is not this an hygh blasphemie that a sinnefull man shoulde presume to sete hym selfe iudge ouer the word and wyl of god asthough he ought not to bee obedient vnto it excepte he were moued with his owne spiritee and mocion to reiecte or receiue it I harde ones a papiste doctour openly in a disputaciō saie that we whiche teache the gospell dooe teache the truthe and dyd alowe our teachynge veary well but that he coulde not nor durste subscribe vnto it exrepte our teachynge were adprobated and alowed by the bisshoppe of Rome Beholde my Symon what abhominacion is this that a mortall man shulde take vpon hym to adprobate alowe the diuine and heauenly veritee and set hym selfe iudge ouer god Therfore haue I put this conclusion in the forefront because that the Anababtistes doe for y ◠moste parte boast and aduaunce their spirite vnder such pretence deceiuyng the simple and rude people Symon Doeth not Paule teache this that the letter doeth kylle and the spirit viuifieth or doeth quieken ii Corin. iii And Christe doeth saie Ioan. xiiii The spirite shall teache you all truthe It is spoken by the lorde also Hieremy xxxi Euery man shall teache no more his neyghbour saiyng knowe thou the lorde but all shall knowe hym from the lowest to the hyghest Finally Iohn dooeth saie It is no neede that euery man dooe teache you but as the vnction teacheth you of all thinges whiche is true and is no lye What canst thou saye agaynst so manyfeste scriptures Ioiada To the woordes of Paule I aunsweare thus That Paul speaketh there of the lawe whyche kylleth vs as he dooeth declare more apertly in the .vii. chap. to the Romains And by the spirit he vnderstondeth faith and the consolacion or comforte of the gospell That it is so the texte of the whole chapter dooeth testifie Therefore this place helpeth nothyng your errour For whan we speake of the woorde of god we dooe not vnderstonde the bare and deade letter or voyde sonnde of it but the word well and truely vnderstonded and as it is in veary dede And as for that that Chryste dooeth promesse a spyrite vnto his dysciples teachynge them all thynges wee dooe admytte and beleue it But that spyrite can not bee contrarye to Chryste nor teacheth any other thyng than Chryst hath taught Therfore doeth he adde by and by teachyng you what so euer I haue saied vnto you What dooe these thynges perteyne to the spirite of the Anababtistes whiche teacheth contrary thynges to the spirite of Christe The prophecies of Ioel and Hieremye are vnderstonded of that same spirite that Christe dooeth bothe promesse and geue to his disciples as it is euidently sene in the seconde chapiter of the Actes and the eyght to the Hebrues Iohn in his epistell whan he speaketh of the vnctyon dooeth playnely expounde hym selfe saiynge I haue written vnto you that ye bee not deceyued or that ye dooe not suffer your selues to be brought in to errour whyche thyng will then come to passe if ye dooe stedfastely abyde in the doctrine of the spirite whiche ye haue harde at the begynnynge and swarue not at all from it The holy ghoste is the spirite of truthe which canne neither lye nor repugne against hym selfe beyng all waies constaunte vnchaungeable euery where lyke vnto hym selfe Now no man can denaye but that the same euerlastyng vnchaungeable and holy spirite hath inspyred the holy scriptures in to holy mens hertes and myndes Whereby it foloweth necessarily that the same spirite which speaketh agaynste the meanyng of the spirite that dooeth speake and expresse hym selfe in the diuine scriptures is not of god but rather an humaine mayne affection whyche if it bee styffe maie bee deseruyngly called a deauelysshe spyryte as Chryste dooeth proue agaynste the Iues. Iohn viii Or canst thou thynke in thy mynde that spirite to bee good whiche contemneth the cleare manyfeste pure and holy scriptures and when by them he is conuicted of errour doeth boste an other spirite whiche shoulde teache cleane cōtrary thinges Is not this to despise y ◠spirite of y ◠scriptures and to repugne against hym As though our spirit meaneth truely and the spirit of the scriptures most falsely Where haue the Anababtistes learned to set their spirit against y ◠scriptures yea and preferre hym to the holy worde of god Symon But who hath geuen you this libertee to iudge al thynges after the litterall sence or letter Ioiada That we dooe not as thou doest interprete the letter But we saie that the worde of god conteined in the scriptures of the Bible is a touche stone wherby spirites are tried For what spirite so euer doeth agree with the scriptures is of god the father of truthe And agayne what spirite so euer is contrary to the holy scriptures is of the dyuelle the father of lyes Seyng therfore that the spyrite of the Anababtistes wil not bee ruled by the holy scriptures but preferreth hym selfe to the woorde of god callynge by crafte the woorde of god a bare letterre yea and sette set him selfe iudge ouer it he cānot be of god For if he were of god he would come to light and speake that same thyng that the holy ghost doeth speake in al the holy scriptures But now sith y t he doeth not depende of the scriptures but will be at his own lybertie it is a token that it is a craft and subtiltie of the deuell whiche doeth alwayes scatter repugne against god Sy. Thou speakest these thynges mightily and stronglye but withoute the word of god And this is your familier custome to speake many thinges without scriptures As touching the spirite what he techeth I haue brought and alledged places and testimonies oute of the scriptures But that the spirit ought to be tried by scriptures or rather mācipated and bounde vnto them and not be at his own libertie it is thy parte for to proue Or peraduenture thou dost prefer the creature vnto the creatour Ioi What and yf I should say also My spirite hath taught me this thyng What couldest thou do or say vnto me Sym. But that is not to aunswere Ioi Nor ye do not answere sufficiently when ye bost your spirite without or agaynst the scriptures But in this thīg we do learne that whan it pleaseth you ye vse the scriptures agayne whan ye see to be expede ent ye boaste aud aduance your spirit Whan I affirme that the spirite must be tried by the scriptures I doe not mancipate nor subdue the creatour vnto y ◠creature but I will that the thynge whiche is vncertaine be tryed proued by y t which is certaine and that any spirit be tried by the holy spirit of god that is to saie by the scriptures whether he agreeth with hym self or not And if he be like euery where vnto him self to be receiued if not to be refused
accordyng to the preceptes of the apostle Donatus dyd gather a particuler Church Nonatus lykewyse bothe in Affrica And yet not withstandynge none of theim both was called or sent by god And their Churche also were no Churches but conuenticles or assembles of Heretikes Symon What thynkest thou by the saiyng of s Paule .i. Corin. xiiii where he doth geue free libertie vnto all men to preache or interprete the Scriptures Ioiada I am of the same selfe opinion that Paule is Two or three sayth he may speake in the church Let the other heare and iudge Finally if it be reuelated to an other syttyng by let the other holde his peace And by and by it followeth For ye may al prophecy one after another that all may learne and haue cousolacion Symon By these wordes it appeareth that Paule dothe not geue libertie to euery man to preache what he listeth whē he nameth ii or .iii. and byddeth the other to heare to geue attendance to that that the Prophetes in the newe Testament suche as do expounde the scriptures are called Prophetes do expounde and set furthe out of the scriptures Nor he doth not gyue lysence to the hearers to interrupte the sermons of the Prophetes excepte it be when any thyng is lefte or peruersly expounded by the Prophet or interpretor By this it foloweth that it is not semely ne comely that any mā shuld interrupt if the truthe be sufficiētly enucleated shewed muche lesse that any man shoulde vnder suche pretence and colour sewe in or bring in his errors I doo see perceiue that the effecte of the matter doeth consist in thys thyng If it be necessary if any thyng be omitted and lefte by them that are Prophetes that oughte not to bee omitted or whiche beynge lefte maye dooe harme and agayne which being shewed may edifi the churche that then it may be shewed vnto them by any mā but that with al sobrenesse and charitie If nothing be wanting or lackynge all the audience to holde their ptace Ioiada Thou takest the ryght sense of it For it foloweth by and by The spirite of the Prophetes is subiect to the Prophetes For God is not the auctor of confusiō but of peace The Holy ghost doth not breake furth rashely with affection and stryfe but is treatable nor he dooeth not styffely contende for euery lyght matter but suffereth him self to be instructed and taughte so geueth easely place to him that hathe better vnderstandyng But the Anababtistes are farre from al such thinges boastyng neuerthelesse a spirit but as Iudas did boast his Apostleship sayut Iames dyd not without a cause warne vs saiyng Let not many masters be among you knowynge that we shall receyue greatter dampnaciō or iudgement that is to say we that are teachers Symon But here thou haste brought me into a greter dout For now I aske the Whether of theym two ▪ is greatter the Prophet vnto whom the spirit is subiect or the spirit If thou sayest that man is gretter then the spirite beware that thou doest not attribute to much to a mortall and frayle man If the spirite is hygher how can that thyng which is gretter be subiecte to a thyng that is lesse If so bee that thou preferrest the spirite vnto men agayne wyll haue the saiyng of Paule to be true I do not perceiue by what reason it can stande Or howe can a man be greatter then the Spirite whiche maketh hym a Prophet Ioiada Thou dooest aske righte well this question But it is to be noted that Paul doeth not here take the spirite for the holy ghost whiche is the thyrde persone in trinitie but for the gyfte operacion of the spirite of God The sense and meanyng of this place is therfore that the gyfte of prophecy is so in the power of the Prophet that hath it that he maye bothe speake holde his peace in the congregacion of the sayntes when and as long as it is expedient for the hearers For they are not so instructed and moued with the spirit as mad and phantasticall men are that they shoulde all cryout at once with an vnsemely clamor murmuryng one agaynst another with a debatefull contencion stryfe For so one coulde not vnderstande another The spirite of God is gentle treatable and peasable not stirrynge or mouyng any man to contenciō and debate but to peace and vnytie Wherfore he sayeth ye may Prophecy all one after another To the which exposiciō Theophilactus agreith interpretynge this place after thys maner The spirite that is to say the grace of the holy ghost which is in thee the operacion or workyng that hath inuaded thee is subiecte to the gyfte or grace of another man which is moued to Prophecy that is to say dothe geue place hearing But now if thou be so pleased let vs go aboute the thirde Conclusion Symon I am well content begynne thou The. VI. Treatyse or Dialogue Of the Vnitie of the Churche against the Sectes of the Anabaptistes Ioiada IChynke that thou wylt say nothyng agaynst the thyrd conclusion For what canne be sayde more truly then that Christ and his Apostles dyd alwayes congregate or assemble the Churche and that thei dyd neuer tumultuate or moue sedision for outwarde and temporall thynges Or is there any man that can say the contrarye Symon I wyl shew hym vnto the by by that is to say Christ whiche dothe saye I am come not to bring peace but the swoorde Ioiada Thou dooest writhe and wrest the wordes of Christ For he speaketh nor these wordes of his Churche that they shoulde disagree within themselues as the Anabaptistes do moue tumulte in those churches where Christ and the Gospell is preached sincerely but doth expres the nature of the infidels whiche doo persecute the faythfull For whersoeuer Christ is preched they that are godly do receyue and embrace him gladly and they that are vngodly doo bothe let and persecute Christ and his Disciples Now Christ doth cal this discenciō a sword which sworde is not among the godly in the Churche but the infidels do vse it agaynst them that ar godly Dothe not Esaie say that there is no peace to the vngodly The cognisaunce or badge of them that ar godly is Charitie Peace and Concord Wherfore the Lorde dothe call them that be peasable or loue peace blessed and chyldren of God Mat. v. Symou I do easely graunte that peace and vnitie ought to be in the Church But that Christ and hys Apostles dyd neuer moue sediciō for temporall thynges thou doest affirme it scantly Ioiada yea and truly also or elles shewe thou the contrary Symon In the .xv. chap. of the Actes we do reade that Paule and Barnabas had no small discencion and reasonyng agaynst them which dyd teache Circumsicion Who wyll deny circumcision to be an outwarde thyng Ioiada I vnderstande call outward thynges that dooe helpe nothyng to our saluacion perteining to the body more then to the soule and
without scriptures Ioiada I wyll proue all that I haue saied by the worde of god A littell afore that Chryste did departe from his apostels he did sende them vnto the worlde to preache the gospel vnto all cretures but before y t thei shoulde take in honde this offyce they shulde tary a while in Nierusalem till they were endued with grace frome aboue For he dyd promise vnto them to sende the promised spirit and comfort our of the father vpon them And after that thei had ones receiued the holy ghost with it thei did receiue the knowlage of all sciences speches tongues Luc. xxiiii Act. ii whan Moises dyd draw backe and did bryng many excuses knowledgyng hym selfe to bee without vtterance vneloquent chyldisshe and vnmete for that offyce that god woulde haue sent hym to the lord did promise that he would be in his mouth as he dyd also promise to his apostelles suche mouth and wisedome that no man shoulde bee able to resyste agaynste it Mathew .x. Paule writynge to Tymothe and Titus concernyng the election of bysshoppes requireth such one as is apte to teache able to exhorte with wholsome doctrine whyche can reuycte and confounde them that resyste and withsaie the truthe .i. Timothe iii. Titus .i. There Paule doeth forbydde that none of them whyche were newly conuerted shoulde be admitted to the office of a preacher Netherto haue I brought places and testimonies out of the scriptures touchyng the learnyng that ought to be in an ouerseer or bysshop Now shall we heare what the scriptures doe testifie and witnesse concernyng the miracles of them that are sent We dooe therfore alleage here the wonders that Moyses did shewe in Egypte and other innnmerable signes and tokens that bee written in the Actes the manifeste imposicion of handes and that thei dyd receiue the holy ghost visebly Moreouer that thei whiche be sent ought to be laufully elected and chosen by a common assent we dooe dryng the first chapiter of the Attes vpon the election of Mathias the vii and .xiii. of the Actes vpon the election of Steuen Paule and Barnabas The .xiii. chap. also of the Actes doeth manifestly shewe that Paule and Barnabas when thei had created thorow all the churches by a generall election priestes or seniours laiyng their handes vpon them and had made theyr praiers with fastyng did committe them vnto the lorde in whome thei had beleued Now thou seest my Symon that in y ◠times of the Apostels euery man dyd not rasshely aduaunce nor sette for the hym selfe to preache For if it hadde ben so what shoulde haue neaded any election and imposicion of handes But election was made after praiers fastyng The same is also written in the epistell to Titus Sy. What if thou fyndest all such thynges among the Anababtistes Io. Not y ◠lesse iote of al y ◠aboue rehersed thīges ergo thei are not sēt by god but sēsualitee and ipmpudent boldenesse dyd impell moue them For what myracles doe thei except these are to be called miracles that they with their pernicious doctrine dooe brynge men out of their right and godly minde in to starke madnesse or that thei make the gammons and legges of bakon hangynge in the larders of the symple and poore people inuisible What learnynge should we loke for where rudenes and as thei do speake themselues simplicitee is taken for hyghe rudicion I dooe passe ouer here many of them whiche can scarcely reade yea and what wyll ye saie of them y ◠can reade no maner of thyng Are not these y ◠neophites by y ◠neophites I meane not onely them that are newly conuerted but such as doe lacke learnyng that Paule do reiecte But thei promote them that by all their lyues tyme did neuer reade the Bybles hauyng onely in readinesse certaine sentences not vnderstonded which beyng either plucked out of al partes of scripture or stolen or els borowed of their gydes leaders thei dooe wrethe wrast turne to contencion w t all maledicence reuilyng And so stondyng among the simple people haue alwais in their tonges endes y ◠father of heauen and the spirite What name my Symon maie conueniently be geuen vnto them I maie not call them apostels for thei are not sent by god Again thei do not preache wher nothīn hath ben yet preached of god but where y ◠people hath ben a long season with the great labour of the true and faithfull ministers taught the waie of truthe there doe thei breake in destroiyng peruertyng as a storme or tempest stirryng vp all thinges makyng the commons so perplexed and doubtfull that thei know neither ende nor begynnyng If any man shoulde call them prophetes and expositours of the scriptures it were none other thyng but to call a filthy swine an excellent cunning Musician For thei are ignorant in al maner of tongues in so muche that thei doe contemne them being content with y ◠vulgare tongue onely If thou callest thē doctours they know nothynge lesse than the right waie and trade of teachyng Besides that thei want the truthe whiche is chiefly required in a teacher But paraduenture thei will be called bishops and sheapherdes Why do y ◠lacke then al suche excellent giftes as Paule requireth in a teacher or bishop In so much that thei be vnlearned striuers contencious and rude neophites Briefly they haue nothyng that perteine to y ◠office of a teacher Wherby any man maie perceiue that the Anababtistes are suche as doe send them selues beyng perplexed sedicious debatefull ambitious heretykes Sy. Thei be bothe chosen and sent Ioi By whome Sy. By their church Moreouer one brother dooeth lai his hand vpō y ◠other geuing hym ful power autoritee Io. This sendyng election maketh me to remēbre y ◠bishop of Rome for after that the bisshop of Rome dyd ones get pourchasse vnto hym selfe thorowgh disobedience tirannie and pernicious crafte suche great power by and by dyd he promote to bisshoprykes euery mule keper bawdes and blody souldyours ▪ But who did teache them to seuer and diuide the churche beynge vnited and glued with faithe and charitee seynge that there is but one God one faythe one babtyme and one churche Who hathe sent the authours of this secte to make and congregate a new churche Truely amulacion enuy strife contencion auaryce ambicion and stiffe pertinacy I could wel and sufficiently proue all these thynges except I shoulde here wittyngly spare some people Their Churche therfore is not the Churche of God but a certayne secte and congregacion of styffenecked and disobedient people among whom there is no more iust election then is in the company of rebelles traytours whiche forsakyng their owne prince or gouernour doo retchely without aduisement chuse thys man or that man to be their Capitayne But let vs graunt that it is a Church yet not withstandyng they erre in election whiche is not vsed among them
y t beleue In y e ii cha to the Ephe. ye ar saued thorow faith not of our owne selues It is the gift of god and cometh not of our dedes or workes For we ar his owne workmāshyp created in Iesu Christ to do good dedes which he hath prepared for vs to walke in in the .iii. to Ti we wer also folyshe disobediente deceaued seruyng to lustes and voluptuousnes liuyng in malice and enuye hatefull or odiouse and hatyng eche other But after y t the goodnes and loue of our sauiour God not accordynge to the dedes of rightwisnes whiche we haue done but accordyng to his mercye had made vs safe by the fountayne of regeneracion and renuynge of the holy ghost whiche he hath poured vpon vs abundantely thorow our sauiour Iesu christ that we beyng iustified by his grace shulde be made heyres of euerlastyng lyfe accordyng to our hope These places are plaine and can not be auoided For thei that speake againste them are no christen men but felowes of the false Apostles against whome Paule writeth callyng them euyll workemen and subuersours of the gospell of Christ And by these wordes not onely the Anababtistes but also all popishe doctours are noted and whosoeuer besyde doo attribute our rightwisnes and saluacion to our dedes workes Sy. I can saie nothing against the manifest veritee But I wold faine know of the in what reputacion thou haste the epistle of Iames and how muche thou doest esteme it Io. And I aske the first what thou thinkest or what oppinion and iudgement thou haste of the afore aledged places and howe strong thou coūtest them to be Sy. Thei are manifest and true and also strong enoughe and dooe attribute saluacion and iustifiyng to faith but Iamis doeth adscribe saluacion to our woorkes and dedes Ioiada What semeth vnto the then is it right y t many places shulde geue the ouer hande to one or one place to many Symon The interpretaciō of one place must bee taken out of many But what dooeth this to the epistle of Iames Ioiada Had the apostles all one learnynge and spirite Symon All one But I asked the touchynge the wordes of Iames. Ioiada I haue had alwaies in singulare reputacion the epistle of Iames and haue alwaies geuen great credit a faith vnto it though it hath ben suspected by Eusebius and other besyde counted lesse apostolicall But if it be Apostolical it foloweth that it hath the same meanyng and spirit that the epistles of Paul haue For this thou hast graūted before that thei had al one learnyng and spirit moreouer that the places whiche I haue aledged out of Paule and doo adscribe saluacion to faythe and not to woorkes are bothe true and stronge Now it foloweth necessarily that it is not the meanynge of Iames that woorkes shoulde iustifye and saue and that therefore this darke place and saiyng of Iames ought to be expounded by many plaine and manifeste testymonyes of Paule Symon What is that Ioiada That is to saie that Iames dooeth not goe about to proue that workes iustifie and that fayth iustifieth not but that faithe without workes is no faithe but an oppiniō and credulitie or light beleue which faith can not saue And y ◠it is sufficient to saluacion to trust leyne vpon this vaine oppinion It is manifest therfore y ◠Iames doeth not take here faith for that true and liuely faithe whiche faith is a gyft of God and renuyng of the mynde and lyfe but for a false oppinion which foolyshe men do call faith with the whyche faythe the diuell beleueth all quakyng and trēblyng but by it he is made neuer the better nor saued Besyde that he vnderstandeth not humaine or bare workes without faithe but faithe workyng effectually thorough charitee and loue Ponder the wordes of saynt Iames and thou shalt perceiue that he proueth there partly that faithe can not bee without workes partly that faith workyng thorough charitee doeth bothe iustifie and saue Therefore Iames dooeth not disagree from Paule but meaneth al one thing with him agreyng both in one spirit and learnyng Sy. Yet it semeth vnto me that our saluacion is adsribed to workes when it is attributed to faythe For if faith can not be without workes nor workes without faith thei must be all one thyng and that which is attributed to one is attributed to the other Ioia Faith and woorkes are almost so one thynge as the godhed and manhead are one persone in Christe And yet it folowed not that the godhed is mortal because that Christ dyed in very dede vpon the crosse Yet notwithstandyng it is all one persone whyche can not be diuided So we maie speake in this busynesse Faith iustifieth Here faith is taken for the election and grace of God and also for the redempcion whiche is not adscribed to our owne workes though thei can not be separated from faith and which folowyng most certainly of faithe are very sure vndoubted signes tokens of faith and election of god For so Paul doeth speake Whom he hath predestinated them dydde he chose whom he hath chosen them did he call whome he hath called them dyd he iustify And Iohn also We knowe that when he shall appere we shall bee lyke vnto hym and euery man that hath this hope doth make him selfe cleane as he is pure .i. Io. iii. In one sonne there is bothe lyght and heate and the one is not from the other Yet notwithstandyng the lightyng or illuminacion is attributed to the lyght and not to the heate and the heatyng or warmenesse is adscribed to the heate and not to the lyght Symon But the scriptures dooe often and in many places adscribe saluacion to oure woorkes and merites Ioiada That is done not because that the worke shoulde bee barely taken by it selfe but as a woorke or dede comyng of faithe wherby that whiche is farthest and chyefest that is to saie faythe maie be manifested and shewed I aske the can a man dooe any good thynge of hym selfe Symon No. For no man is good but god onely Ioiada And Christ saieth in the .xv. of Iohn As boughes can not brynge forthe fruite excepte they remayne stylle in the vine So ye can bryng forthe no fruite excepte ye remayne in me For without me ye can dooe nothynge Now I aske againe who bringeth forth the grapes and the wyne Symon The vine Ioia If god shoulde take awaie his strengthe frome the vyne and shoulde not worke in it that which we dooe see coulde that vine brynge for the wyne Sy. No. Ioiada The chyefe thyng therefore that geueth wyne is not the vyne but God and yet notwithstandyng we dooe adscribe the wyne to the vyne whereas it dooeth onely come of God Symon I can saye nothynge agaynste the truthe Ioiada It is all one reason when the saluacion and euerlastynge lyfe is attributed to oure owne workes where as it cometh of God onely and of gratuitee and free election For
GOD worketh 〈…〉 s bothe to be willyng and to doo or performe the thyng that he hathe moued vs to be willyng to do accordyng to his bountuous wyll He I say worketh in vs good workes as in his electes notwithstanding the workes ar attributed vnto vs and are called ours whiche neuerthelesse are Gods that glory honor may be geuē to god only Doest thou vnderstande what I say Sy. I doo vnderstand it very well Ioia Dothe it satisfie thee Sy. ye as truly Now do I perceiue that the lernyng of the Anababtistes cometh of ygnoraunce and boldnesse and that it is very pernicious and hurtfull whiche is gaye in the syght of the simple but in dede is an error malicious rudenesse 〈…〉 ut I desyre to knowe what thou wylte saye of the .v. conclusiō For they be fully persuaded that soules are a slepe The .x. treatie or dialoge How that the Soules after that thei be departed from the body do not slepe but lyue in christ Ioiada BVt with this opinion they do abolish the gospel which teacheth of the resurrection of Christ as saynt Paule in the fyrst chap. to the Romayns doth say Besyde that they doo denye the last Article of oure fayth that is to saye The lyfe euerlastyng after this lyfe Is not this therfore a pernitious Doctrine that repugneth agaynst so manifest veritie and sure beleue Sy. Thou doest not vnderstande the Anabaptistes For they doo neyther denye the Gospell nor the Resurrection of Christ They saye that the Soules after the deathe of the bodye if they dooe departe in fayth do slepe in the bosome of Abraham tyl the day of iudgement that then they do entre into euerlasting life And proue their saiynges by the gospell by Paule Luc. xvi i. Thess iiii I wyl not haue you to be ignoraunt touchyng them that are a slepe c. In the Olde Testament it is written of the Fathers that thei fal a slepe with their Fathers And also it is sayde of Stephen that he dyd slepe in the Lord. And that thei at lengthe shall receyue euerlastyng lyfe they do proue it by Paule .ii. Timoth. iiii I haue sayeth he fought a good fyght Now is there layde vp for me a croune of rightwysnesse which the Lorde who is a rightfull iudge shall geue or render vnto me vpon that day not onely to me but also to al them that loue his comynge There is suche a thyng Phil. iii. i. Iohn iii. Or what neade is it of that last iudgement if by by after his death euery man receyueth his owne dome these do seme vnto me strong Nowe wyll I fayne he are what thou canst saye agaynst it Io. I saye the same thyng that I sayde before If our soules dooe sleepe after the death of the bodye the soule of Christ sleepeth also and the resurrection is disanulled For Christ dyd proue that ther was an euerlasting lyfe by his rising agayne which can not be euerlastyng if the soule slepeth and begynneth then to lyue when iudgement dothe come Wherfore the sleepe of the Anababtistes dothe euacuate and disanull the gospell and resurrection As for the bosome of Abraham I aske the whether it be a slepyng place dormitori or a receptacle and place to receyue the lyuyng Sy A place whervnto the soules of y e faithfull Christen men ar gathered together tyll the day of iudgement Ioi Where is that place aboue or benethe Sy It is vncerteyne to me God doth know Nor it is not lawfull for vs to enquyre Sy. So ye do defend al vncertayne thynges that ye do teache And ye that do speake babble muche of the bosome of Abraham and do not know yet That comyng of Christ shall be in the last day of all Ioia What and I vnderstande that of the comyng of Christ at the ende of euery mans lyfe Sy. So thou doest say but it must be proued by the holy scriptures Io. These ar not my wordes but the wordes of him that speaketh there of his owne death For he vseth this word to go for to dye so that to go and to dye is all one thyng with him And agayne this worde to come wherfore the Anababtistes doo stryue is not taken for his last comyng but for the resurrectiō of christ and ye helpe and ayde that he sheweth vpon the faythfull christen men being in extreme nede For he came agayne after that he was rysen from death dyd declare that he had opened the kingdom of god that we might be sure that as he dyd entre in to heauen him selfe so we shuld come in or entre in also But he is entered in to immortal lyfe not in to slepe in to the kyngdome of God and not in to the bosome of Abraham and that by by after his death Therfore we shall also incontinent after our death entre in to euerlastyng lyfe and into the kingdome of God For he taketh vs away when he calleth vs from death to lyfe Iohn v. For it is added by maner of exposicion That where I am ther ye may be also Therfore are we taken in soule from death to euerlastyng lyfe in body to iudgement Or tell me dyd Christ with his death reserate open heauen whiche was locked vp afore or not Sy I do graunt that he did opē it Ioi But what neadeth this reseration or openyng if the soules doo not entre in to lyfe Where as notwithstādyng Paul doeth say I coueit to be dissolued deliuered from this body to be w t christ beleuyng that after this death he should be with Christ Peter moreouer doeth saye that for this cause the gospel was preached vnto the dead that they shuld be iudged in the flesh but lyue after or in y e spirit do not these manifest places teache proue that the soules doo lyue with God For he sayeth that y ◠gospell was preached vnto the dead What is els the gospel to be preached but redemption lyfe to be preached And what were they that were dead but they which after that thei were departed were gathered in the bosome of Abraham Sy. But howe was the gospell preached vnto them Ioia The vertue of the passion of Christ and the fruit of his death which were profitable vnto them Sy. How Ioi Because that they being deliuered thorough the death of Christ ar receiued as touching their soules into euerlastyng lyfe In the last day they shall ryse bodily and as all other shall be iudged in the vniuersall iudgement In the meane season their soules do liue with God Is it proued sufficiently that the soules that wer in the bosome of Abraham are delyuered brought in to heauen Sy. I dooe not saye agaynst it Ioia And thou shalt fynde none other thing in the word of god ▪ It followeth therfore that th◠Bosome of Abraham is no dormitory or slepyng place but an euerlastyng lyfe Which thyng we may proue by the .xvi. of Lu
â–ª For ther it is written that Lazarus is in ioy and solace wheâ— as the rycheman is punyshed in hell If so be that the soule as ye doo say shulde slepe she coulde haue no ioye excepte iâ— were by dreames if she reioyseth or haue ioy it is impossible that she shoulde slepe Likewisâ— it is manifest li knowen shewed in the .viii. of Mathew that many shall come sytte in the kyngdome of God with Abraham Isaak and Iacob That in the meane season I shoulde sai nothing that slepe is cleanâ— contrarye to the nature of the soule which is in Greke called â—ntesecheia or Endesechia that is to sai â— perpetuall and vnrequietable â—otion or workyng Sy. These â—hinges are more manifest and more strong then I thought Ioia It is the poynte of an vnwise man to say I thought not and hauyng hearde but one â—arte to geue sentence The Aâ—ababtistes do aduaunce and â—et forth gaily and paintyngly their argumentes but they are weake and nothyng strong Sy. I woulde fayne know in what significacioÌ„ the scripture vseth this worde to slepe which is so often tymes founde in euery place of the Bible Ioia Among the auncient fathers this worde to slepe was to dye naturally or after the commen course of nature And because of the resurrectioÌ„ it was saied that thei which dyd dye sleape For as a man geueth hym selfe to sleape doubting nothing but that he shall wake agayne from his sleape so the body sleapeth that is to say dyeth doeth lyâ— in the graue beyng kepte there â—yl the day of the general resurrection So the Fathers dyâ— sleape so Stephen all otheâ— godly persons Seyng therforâ— that to sleape is to dye and thâ— soules can not dye it foloweth that they canne not sleape Foâ— Stephen dyd saye Lorde receiue thou my spirite which thyng when he had saied haâ— coÌ„mitted or coÌ„mended his soul to the heauenly father his bodâ— sleapynge dyd dye In thy thyng they are deceyued thaâ— they do attribute vnto the souâ— that which belongeth to the body only But in the meane seasoÌ„ it is attributed to the whole maÌ„ because of the vnitie of the body and of the soule beyng knytted in one persone Which example was brought afore of Christ in whom the body died only not his godhead nor his soule Lykewyse a man slepeth but with his bodye not with his soule The Anababtistes doo not nor wyl not vnderstand this figure Sinâ—cdochâ— nor the other figures tropes Which thyng causeth them to erre in many thynges But ignorauncye maketh them the bolder to teache what so euer they do dreame or conceyue in their sleape Sy. Yet it is euident that Paul saith that a cotoune of rightwisnes shal be reÌ„dered vnto him at lengthe when thâ— Lorde cometh And also that which is written in Iohn anâ— in the Epistle to the Philipenâ— is sure and strongly grounded â–ª Ioia This ought to be obserueâ— Symon that the daye of thâ— Lorde in scriptures is not alwayes to bee taken for the lasâ— day but somtyme for the truth and lyght as in the gospell oâ— Iohn otherwhyles for the viâ— sitacion of the Lorde as ofteâ— tymes in the Prophetes and â— Cor. iii. sometyme for the endâ— death of euery man as Iohâ— vi I wyll resussitate or raysâ— him agayne to euerlastyng life in the last daye that is to sayeâ— when he dyeth For when anâ— man dyeth that day is last vntâ— hym After thys maner dyâ— Paule call the last daye in thâ— Epistle to Timothe For he had spoken before of his death saiyng I am ready to be offered affirming that he had ben faith full and loyall in his course therfore he dyd not doubte but that the rightwise iudge shulde render vnto him the coroune of rightwysnesse which as he leaueth no vnrightwysnesse vnpunyshed so alwayes rewardeth them that lobor faithfully And this place doeth rather for vs then for the Anababtistes seing that Paule dothe hope that the coroune of rightwysnesse duyd vnto the rightwyse shal be renderyd vnto him at the tyme of his death Ergo he beleueth not that the soules do slepe but that they do lyue euerlastingly That which thou aledgest out of Iohn and Paule to the Philipenses are spoken of the last iudgement but they proue not that the soules are a sleape For that whiche they doo speake of saluation there dooe perteyne more to the resurrection of the body For these are the wordes of Paule He shall transforme that is to say Christ our vyle body that he may make it conforme and lyke to his glorious body What meane these thingê elles but that our bodyes haue full hope of resurrection or risyng agayn As Iob dyd speke Iob .ix. Sy. If the soules dooe receyue by and by their iudgement as sone as they be departed what neadeth that vniuersall iudgement Ioia It perteyneth to the whole man whiche shall be repayred or made new agane with the body that shall ryse with the soule Of the which thyng it is written Chess .iiii. Mat. xxiiii .xxv. Doest thou yet desyre any thiÌ„g Sy. I had leauer heare foundations and groundes oute of the scriptures Ioia I haue brought verye many alreadye what dooest thou aske more Sy. Thou hast other helpes yet the which I pray the to bryng forth Ioia Seynge that thou arte desyrous of the truthe I wyll hyde nothyng frome the. This Doctrine and Opinion of the Sleape of the Soules dooeth not ouelye repugne agaynst the Scriptures fayth dooeth not onely disanulle the Gospell and Resurrection of Christ but is also agaynst all coÌ„mune sense reasone a rude and vnclearkelye ignoraunce but go to let vs expounde these thyngê I aske thee if the soule be a body or a spirite Sy. It is not a bodye nor any grosse substaunce but a syngle and pure spirite Ioia Can then a spirite be subiect to bodily infirmities as to be an hongered to be weryed to dye c. Sy. No for these perteyne to the bodye onely A spirite is immortall incorruptible euerlasting or perpetuall Ioiada Thou sayest very well therfore marke thyne argumeÌ„t thus Sith the soule is a spirit not a bodye it can not be subiecte to bodily passions or infirmities but is exempte frome them slepe doth chaunce to the body thorough werinesse Ergo the soule can not slepe for the soule cannot be weary Or canst thou brynge any other thynge concernyng slepe Sy. No for all operacions and senses dooe ceasse and rest and excepte the body shulde brethe folkes wold thynke that it were dead Ioia Now if our soules should slepe it shoulde folow that after this lyfe we doo feele neither good nor euyll which dothe directly pugne agaynste the Gospell Moreouer we wyl proue by the nature of the slepe that the soules can not slepe but the bodye only For now I aske the when doeth the soule slepe after that she is departed frome the body or when she is yet ioyned to the body
Sy. At bothe tymes Ioi Neither of them can be trew and I do meruail that so grosse an answere dyd come from the. For seyng that the Soule can muche lesse slepe when she hath put awaye the burdeyn of thâ— body then when she beareth about yet the burdeyn of the body doeth not sleape when shâ— is yet in the bodye it followetâ— that she sleapeth muche lesse when she is deliuered from thâ— bodye And that she doeth not slepe beyng in the body it maye be knowen by thys that in the tyme of wakyng the body doth alwayes without rest quyet worke which actions do come from the soule Ergo it is manifest that whiles that the body waketh the soule sleapeth not And agayn when the body hath geueÌ„ it self to rest to slepe the soule worketh with a perpetual motion or mouyng doeth neuer rest or ceasse either she bretheth or doeth some thynge alwayes withe the vertue of remembraunce vnderstaÌ„dyng or with the other excellent vertues powers All mans lyfe is eyther wakynge or rest in none of them bothe doeth the soulesleape Ergo the soule doeth not sleape at all Therfore slepe longeth only to the body not to the soule For when the soule begiÌ„neth ones to haue life it is a perpetual Entesechia comeyng froÌ„ the euerlasting eternall fontayne of goodnesse the which perpetuall Entesechiia that is to say vnrequietable perpetuall action and mouyng in the soule if any man denayeth by that same reason he must denay the soule Sy. These thyngê are somewhat darke vnto me Ioiada Therefore I wyll declare them by an exaÌ„ple Fyer is a very pure actuall thyng whiche after that it begynneth ones can neuer ceasse from his operacion and workyng tyll it be quenched and that is when it hathe nothyng whervpon it maye shew and exercise his operacion If thou denyest the operacion working of the fier thou hast denyed the fyer The nature of the soule is very like which after that she is poured in to the body by god is a liuely and working spirite and can neuer ceasse nor be at rest Wylt thou haue no fyer take awaye the operacion If thou denyest the Soule attribute vnto her slepe For to say that the soule is a slepe and to saye that the soule is not is all one thyng If the soule slepeth she dooeth rest if she dooeth rest she worketh not if she doeth not worke she is not For to worke and to be in the soule is all one thing â—yth that she is a perpetual motion workyng But the soule is therfore shee sleapeth not Dooest thou vnderstande this thyng Sy. Very well Ioia Therfore did I say that the Aâ—ababtistes knowe not the nature of the soule Sy. Thou shuldest peraduenture haue persuaded somewhat to Timens and Phedrus Platos disciples I had leauer heare Scriptures Ioia The Saduces dyd teache that ther was no Resurrection and by this dyd denye the immortalitie and perpetual workyng of the soule yea and also Angels and all maner of Spirites Act. xiii The Lorde dyd stop their mouthes with these reasons Ye erre sayth he not knowing the scriptures nor the vertue of God God after the death of the Fathers calleth hym selfe the God of AbrahaÌ„ Isaac and Iacob which is not the God of the dead but of the lyuyng and that therfore Abraham and the other Fathers were a lyue and not dead Thei were dead in body a gret whyle afore and buryed Therfore Christ speaketh here of the lyfe of the soule Ergo the soule beyng separated from the body is in her owne kynde worketh lyuely and slepeth not This syllogysme and argument doo I put to all the Anababtistes to answer to that they may cleare them selfe frome the heresye of the Saduces For thei are lyke vnto the Saduces and Manicheans What shoulde I say of the wordes of Christ whiche hangyng vpon the Crosse doeth comforte the thiefe with these wordes saiyng To daye thou shalte be with me in Paradise Sy. Paradise and the Bosome of Abraham are all one thyng to the Anababtistes where thei say that the soules doo sleape Ioia Thei do affirme this with out scriptures and with an hereticall spirite Christ sayeth To day thou shalte be with me in Paradise Ponder euerye worde If Paradice is a sleapyng place Christ sleapeth in it also For he sayeth To daye thou shalte be Moreouer the thiefe prayeth Christ to remember him when he shoulde come in to hys kyngdome If the kyngdome of God is a Dormitorie or Sleapyng place what doo the scriptures speake of the Resurrection and Ascendyng of Christ in to heauen Ye ate obstacle asses O Anababtistes whiche dare make mention of suche sleapyng agaynst so manifest places of the scriptures What shall thei say to the wordes of Christ Iohn v. He that heareth my word and beleueth in him that hath sent me shall not come in to iudgement but is passed frome deathe to lyfe Whiche woordes are so cleare that no maÌ„ can denay them but heretikes Let the .xi. of Iohn and the .xv. of the first Epistle to the Corinthians Item the .ii. Cor .ii. be reade and it shal euidently he knowen that the sleape of the Anababtistes is a blasphemy agaynst the Gospell and Resurrection of Christ Sy. If the matter be better looked vpon the Anababtistes can not cleare them selues from the crime of ouer boldnesse ignorancye but they haue not pondered all these thingê so exactly Ioia Why dooe they presume to teach then take vpoÌ„ theÌ„ that which passeth their strengthe And agayne when they be conuicted wyll not geue the vpper hande to the truthe But because they wyll be sene stedfast they be founde in all thynges frowarde and obstacle To say briefly They doo all thynges with contention arrogancye and ignoraunce Sy. I woulde had questioned with the touchyng the .vi. Conclusion but that I must go to myne Iune Tomorow if thou canst haue leasyr I wyll be here betymes in the morning and reason farther with the. Ioiada I am well pleased for I wyll go to myne Inne also be thou to morow in better readinesse Symon God be with the. Ioiada Fare well SOLIDEO HONOR ET GLORIA â–ª ¶ Thou shalt vnderstaÌ„de good Christen Reader that immediately after this as sone as may be thou shalte haue the seconde Booke whiche entreate vpon as many thynges as this Booke doeth bothe fruitfull to be knowen and also most necessarye for these perillouse tymes in the which the Diuell doeth all that he can to extinguish the trew Doctrine of the Gospell whiche at this tyme thorough our godly Magistrates doeth reuiue and florish agayne Fare well and pray that we may performe the Woorke that we haue in haude