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spirit_n	father_n	ghost_n	son_n	36,902	5	6.3305	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A33979	A supplement to a little book entituled, A reasonable account why some pious nonconforming ministers cannot judg it lawful for them to perform their ministerial acts in publick solemn prayer, ordinarily, by the prescribed forms of others : wherein is examined whatsoever Mr. Falconer in his book called, Libertas ecclesiastica, and Mr. Pelling in a book called, The good old way, have said to prove the ancient use of forms of prayers by ministers : and it is proved, that neither of the two aforementioned authors have said anything that proveth the general use, or imposition of such forms of prayer in any considerable part of the church, till Pope Gregories time, which was six hundred years after Christ, nor in any church since the reformation, except that of England, and (which is uncertain) some in Saxony.	Collinges, John, 1623-1690.; Falkner, William, d. 1682. Libertas ecclesiastica.; Pelling, Edward, d. 1718. Good old way.	1680 (1680)	Wing C5343; ESTC R18940	53,644	120

complaining to Pope Adrian at the imposing of Gregory's Common-Prayer Book it should seem he liked some other possibly that which went about for St. Ambroses better but it seems the complaint ran so high that some Fathers just come from a Council met again to decide the matter spent a night in prayer having first laid both the Common-prayer Books that of Ambrose and that of Gregory on St. Peter's Altar to desire of God by some sign to shew which of those Liturgies he would have universally used In the morning they went in and found that of St. Ambrose lying in his place that of Gregory torn in pieces and scattered up and down From whence they concluded that it was the will of God that St. Ambrose his Office should lye still and be used only in his own Church Gregories should be scattered over the world And thus the Roman Mass-book which is one point in which we differ from the Papists was confirmed by a miracle too He that asked the question By what Common-prayer book the Fathers prayed that night when both their books were lockt up Might have remembred that we have heard of a Liturgy of St. Peter's only one would think that if he had been Bishop of Rome he might have been angry to have seen his Liturgy thrown out and one brought in patcht up by so many hundred years his Juniors especially having so much superstitious stuff in it which he never owned It may be it was for this he caused it to be torn so that night not enduring such trash should lye upon his Altar but then the Fathers were miserably out in their judgments upon the cause This is the truth as to the pretended antiquity of Liturgies and as to the imposition of them by Canon-law from 600 to 800 by Canon and Civil Laws 800 years after Christ § 15. In further proof of this I shall but offer what the Reader may see in Print and what I know to be true It pleased his most Excellent Majesty to grant his Commission out under the Broad Seal dated 25 March in the 13th year of his Reign to 12 Bishops and to divers others requiring them amongst other things to advise upon and review the Book of Common Prayer comparing the same with the most ancient Liturgies which have been used in the Church in the primitive and purest times c. The aforesaid Commissioners did so and being divided into two Parties the party which in some things dissented made this reply to that passage It is to be found p. 11. of the Printed account of their Proceedings Prop. 19. As to that passage in his Majesties Commission wherein we are authorized and required to compare the present Liturgy with the most ancient Liturgies which have been used in the Church in the purest and most Primitive times We have in obedience to his Majesties Commission made enquiry but cannot find any Records of known credit concerning any entire forms of Liturgies within the first 300 years which are confessed to be as the most Primitive so the purest ages of the Church nor any Imposition of Liturgies for some hundreds of years after We find indeed some Liturgical forms fathered upon St. Basil St. Chrysostome St. Ambrose but we have not seen any Copies of them but such as give sufficient evidence to us to conclude them either wholly spurious or so interpotlated that we cannot make a judgment wha in them hath any Primitive authority This Proposition was given in with the rest by these Divines to the rest of the Reverend Bishops and Doctors of Divinity who made the opposite party and it was not only signed by Dr. Manton Dr. Jacomb Mr. Calamy and many others but by the most Reverend and Learned Dr. Reynolds at that time Bishop of Norwich Here if ever the proof should have been produced of Liturgies generally used and enjoyned in the Church in the purest and most Primitive times Let us now see what Reply was made the Reader shall find it in p. 75. of the Printed account It is the 16 Section of the opposite Commissioners Reply in these words Sect. 16. That there were ancient Liturgies in the Church is evident St. Chrysostoms St. Basils and others and the Greeks tell us of St. James much elder than they and we find not in all ages whole Liturgies yet it is certain that there were such in eldest times by those parts which are extant Sursum Corda c. Gloria Patri c. Benedicte Hymnus Cherubinus vere dignum est justum c. Dominus vobiscum cum spiritu tuo with divers others Though those that are extant may be interpolated yet such things as are found in them all censistent to Catholick and Primitive Doctrine may well be presumed to have been from the first especially since we find no Originals of those Liturgies from ancient Councils This is all they say What was replyed to this is too large to transcribe the Reader may read it in the aforementioned Printed Account of the Proceedings p. 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83. But because every Reader may not have that book at hand I shall add a few words We know none will deny but that particular men might even from Christ's time have by them forms of Prayer either of their own composure or other mens but that from the beginning all Ministers in any Church were tyed to them that we deny nor can it be proved It cannot be proved that in the first 400 years there were any entire forms of Liturgy that the Ministers might before they began to pray say Sursum Corda Lift up your hearts or Dominus Vobiscum The Lord be with you and the people of course say And with thy Spirit are far from proving that there were any books directing them so to do It is known that the Doxology Glory be to the Father Son and Holy Ghost was not in any general use for more than 300 years after Christ In the whole Answer there is nothing to prove that for 500 years after Christ there were any such forms as all Ministers in any one Church or Province were commanded to use and to perform their Ministry in prayer by without varying from it But the Reader may at his leasure read much more in the Judicious Reply made by the Commissioners on the other side And if more could have been said upon this argument for the Antiquity of Liturgies it is not probable it would have been omitted by 12 Bishops and so many learned men besides several of which have since that time been made Bishops and some of them are so at this day § 16. Our Reverend Brother talks therefore at a great deal too high a rate when he tells us p. 110. of Forms of prayer embraced by the ancient Church whiles it retained its soundness and before the corruptions and distempers of the Church of Rome took place if by embraced he means used generally by all Ministers or commanded so to

and ignorant as to the generality of their Ministers they made it their business to put out and put in to the Writings of the ancients what they pleased to forge Writings to be theirs which were not so and suppress others that were so which is evident from the Writings of Papists as well as Protestants Sixtus Senensis Possevine Bellarmine were all Papists so was Erasmus Rivet and Cocus were Protestants they have all books extant to teach us to distinguish betwixt the true Writings of the Ancients and those pretended to be theirs but not so And there is no doubt but it was through meer carelesness if they left a word or line in the ancients against any point of Doctrine any way of Worship any Rite or Ceremony in credit at Rome or used in their Church 5. From them came Justin Martyr Ignatius Clement Tertullian Ambrose Augustine in short all the Writings of the Fathers we have except possibly some two or three of the Greek Fathers yet the most famous and common Editions of them are all Popish and come out to us with their puttings out and puttings in what they pleased 6. From hence will appear what little credit is to be given to any thing in any of the books published under their names any further than it is agreeable with the Scripture and bottomed there 7. Allow me the Editions of the Fathers and Councils which the Papists have let us have I hardly know one Doctrine of Popery or one Idolatrous or Superstitious Practice Rite or Ceremony at Rome but I will bring as good proof for as either Mr. Faulconer or Mr. Pelling have brought for the Antiquity of forms of prayer generally used 8. From hence it follows that those who lay such stress on this point of Antiquity in the case are but doing the Papists work laying a foundation for the Papists to build all their abominable Doctrines Idolatries and Practices upon and he is half a Papist that is resolved to believe all those things true which may be found in the ancient Writings as we have them We have so much charity for those great and holy men as to believe they never wrote any such things though some Popish Monks and Fryers have fathered them upon them 9. If any will yet believe what they find in their Works as we now have them he stands obliged not to do it rashly but to read 1. what both Papists and Protestants have wrote as to that book of theirs out of which the Quotation is 2. Then to consider what was the signification of the words Liturgy Merit Offices and an 100 more in that age and whether we have not put a new sense upon them not known in their times 3. To consider how far in the judgment of Protestants the Church was corrupted in the times when those Fathers wrote 10. This I take to be a tedious work the Prophet Isa 8. 20. hath taught me a nearer and safer course To the law and to the testimony if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them Does any say but how will you know the sense of the Scriptures I answer from my own conscience and reason comparing things spiritual with things spiritual and hearing the judgments of others before I determine Will they say but you may be deceived it is true so might the Fathers but in things necessary if I use prayer I have a promise The Spirit shall lead you into all truth I am sure I can from Scripture be as certain of the Will of God in any case as I can be that any one leaf of the Fathers were ever written by them and if it were I am sure they were fallible men as well as I and in many things did err The pressing and laying so much stress as men do some men on authority and antiquity is in truth nothing but a mighty facturing for Popery and it is impossible but learned men must understand so much Besides not one often who talks so much of the Fathers and antiquity regards what Edition he quotes or makes use of and all know that where there is one of the Ancients to be got so much as of Erasmus his Edition who was a Papist but seemeth just and honest there are ten of filthy and most corrupt Popish Editions where the Reader can safely trust nothing And thus much shall serve for Mr. Pelling for I am not concerned as to what he saith for the English Liturgy let it be as fine a thing as it will if it be unlawful for me to use any in my Ministration in prayer it is most certainly unlawful for me to use that and at that boundary I stick till better reason than I have yet met with removes me from it FINIS For the Reverend his very Worthy Friend c. SIR YOU must think me either very regardless of the Obligations you have laid on me or which I had rather chuse very inconcerned in the New Argument for Forms of Prayer from Matth. 26. 44. that I should put you to the trouble of a second Letter to mind me not to overlook it and particularly to give you my thoughts upon it Indeed Sir the Argumentation from it savours fo little of a Scholar or a rational man that I did not think you in earnest But calling to mind that the Gentlemen we have to do with think they have a conclusive argument in the case from the ●… Apostles 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 command that prayers should be made for all men 1 Tim. 2 which surely may be made by each Minister for his Congregation and shall not need be prescribed in a book and what your self told me that you heard a late Bishop of Bath and Wells say That it was very probable that the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Parchments left at Troas which St. Paul took such care Timothy should bring were the Church-prayers or Liturgy forgetting as you well note that there St. Paul prayed some time without them I began to assume some more deliberate thoughts of that Text Mat. 26. especially reading what you write that you had once met with it in Print and had often heard it in Sermons and Conferences For Sermons men now-a-days use more Rhetorick than Logick but methinks in Prints and Conferences they should be more Logical Let me therefore consider the Text Mat. 26. 44. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 we translate it saying the same words so saith Mark 14. 39. Luke mentioneth but one prayer Now Sir how 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 can be translated the same words judg you it must be the same word if any thing ●nd we know though our Saviours prayer were very short yet there was more than one or two words in it But Sir this Topick speaks either a very great ignorance or a wilful design to lead others to mistake in those that use it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doth not signifie always a syllabical word but the thing