that they are the true Ministers of Christ that turn people from darkness to Light and from the power of Satan to God Act. 26. 28. Mu. I must confess our Ministers are great Scholars as Oxford and Cambridge can afford and we look upon such to be the Ministers of the Gospel and none else but yet I cannot say they turn people from their sins But pray are there no true Ministers of Christ but they Qua. Nay none can be said to be Ministers of Christ but such as turn people to the Lord. Mu. Why who then did send them came they of themselves Qu. I never sent them saith the Lord yet they run but they shall not profit the people at all Jer. 23. 22. Mu. Truly I think they have been much better than they are now Qua. Yea they have lost their Courage their Faith and their Zeal and some of them have spued up the Common-Prayer-Book in their Zeal but now they have many of them lickt it up again See what the Prophet calls such Isa 56. 10. Mu. Indeed our Ministers do love their bellies too well to be the Ministers of Christ Truly Friend I cannot speak much for them I see they feed their flock but sparingly but themselves they feed without fear I think for they grow in belly amain but what shall I say when such men as they go wrong what shall become of me that am a sinner Qua. Believe in the Light that shines in thy heart for that Teacher will never deceive thee but will make thee wiser than all thy Teachers Psal 119. 99 100. Mu. Your counsel is good but me-thoughts you were a very honest man and strict before you were a Quaker if I were so I should desire no more Qu. I had a Zeal but not according to Knowledge and all that I have given up to the Bats and to the Moles such as come not forth to look on the Sun for fear of persecution Joh. 10. 1. 1 Tim. 2. 3 12. Isa 2. 20. Mu. 'T is good to avoid Persecution as near as we can for the Scriptures advise us so to do Qu. The Thief and the Robber would climb up some other way but all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer Persecution 2 Tim. 3. 12. Mu. But Christ sayes If they persecute you in one City flee into another Qu. Before the Holy Ghost was given which was the promise of the Father they were more in fear and in the Childs state till our Lord and Master was offered up for a pattern to them then the same Spirit of Christ came into them and made them of the same mind for holy boldness and courage and they loved not their lives to the death and as Christ suffered in the flesh they do arm themselves with the same mind 1 Pet. 4. 1. Mu. Well but my Friend I have something else to say to you and I will leave these things to my Friend here who is better able to answer you than I can But pray let me ask you one question Qua. Use thy freedom Mu. Why did you forsake and dispise so harmless a Calling and Practice in the Art of Musick as you have done Besides you burnt and brake many good Instruments of Musick and burnt your Books of great price and value and why did you burn and break them at Tower-Hill I thought to tell you of it for it was an injurious thing to make our Calling contemptible And it is well known that Musick is the gift of God and an honourable practice I wonder you were not ashamed a man that lived so well and civilly to go and cast off such a Livelihood who maintained your Wife and Family very well and in good order and it is very probable if you had continued you had been of great esteem at this day Qua. I have found out the true Teacher who teaches the best Musick that ever any did learn who for rarity and skill out-strips all that ever had a name and such Musick as takes in the ears of God himself Jer. 9. 24. Mu. Lord bless me is there such a rare Musick-teacher among the Quakers I have heard indeed that the Quakers will come together in one place and sit an hour two or three and not speak a word one to another except sigh groan or weep do you call this good Musick Bap. Pray Friend what ground of Scripture have you to come together where some do sigh and groan and some do weep What Edification is there in this dumb show Qua. The Spirit breathes in whom it listeth and thou mayest hear the sound thereof but knowest not from whence it comes nor whither it goes John 3. Bap. Did you ever hear such Nonsense as this man speaks what strange stuff is this did I not tell you Sir what Nonsense we should have Qua. Are the Scriptures Nonsense Mu. Hold hold my Friend and be not offended at him for he hath spoke Scripture only some Translations do much differ Bap. All that I grant is true but what Scripture hath he to prove that Silent-meeting is a Worship of God Qua. The three Friends of Job when they beheld what misery he lay in they lift up their voice and wept and rent their cloaths indeed and sat down on the ground with him but spake nothing one to another for seven dayes and seven nights Job 2. last yet I do not bring this as a proof Mu. Indeed it was a long time for men to keep silence seven dayes and seven nights and not speak a word there was never such a thing done in our days I must confess but Job was a patient man Qua. I would ask thy Friend one Question and if he be free to answer me then the thing will appear more plain Mu. I 'le warrant hee 'l answer you for he is an able man and though he and I do differ I must confess in judgement yet I know he is able to answer you for he is a baptized person and stands for the vindication of Baptism and the Lord's Supper which are the Ordinances of God Qua. And I also stand in the defence of the holy Truth of God which was once delivered to the Saints Jude 3. Bap. Well Friend what 's your Question Qua. Who is it that tempts men to sin and to disobedience Bap. That is soon answered for he that tempts men to sin is the Devil Qua. Thou hast rightly answered for God tempts no man to sin neither is he tempted of any but every man when he is tempted is drawn away of his own lust and enticed and when lust hath conceived it brings forth sin and sin when it is finished brings forth death Jam. 1. 14 15. Bap. All that is true you have answered your self Qua. Then this is the Question By what means is it by a vocal voice or outward sound that he teaches men to sin Bap. Nay I do believe that the Devil is a spirit and doth not teach men to sin by
the question now but if you will not tell me where he dwells then tell me his name that I may find him out What call you his Name Qu. His Name is called The Word of God Rev. 19. 13. Mu. What a strange man are you what an Answer is this why do you answer so crosly I took you for a wise man once but are you not now turned fool But I have heard of such a Name well if his Name be called The Word of God it is a far better Name in my opinion than Solomon the King but I hope you will not be angry for Quakers do not use to be angry Qu. Nay I am not angry with thee one whit for thou hast spoke the Truth and there is witness born both in Heaven and in Earth to this Name for he whose Name is called The Word of God is a far more excellent Name then Solomon the King for every Name and power in heaven and earth shall bow and must bow to this Name Read Acts 4. 12. Phil. 2. 4 10. Mu. But pray Friend doth he prick Plain-Song or Intableture for if he prick Plain-Song I do not fear but I shall learn it Qu. He pricks very plain for every Note is as easily seen as a white Sembrif or Minnom John 16. 15. Mu. Truly I am glad to hear that you Quakers speak comfortably sometimes though it is but seldom it joys me much for now I hope I shall learn that Lesson that God is well pleased with But where doth he prick his Notes Qu. He pricks at the Heart and brings his pure Light into the Conscience that thou and all the men and women in the world may read yea that they that run on in their wickedness may read because the Book of Conscience is open that all men may see how 't is with them and may come to see who they have pierced And thus men begin to mourn their parts and their wives apart and this takes more in the ears of the Lord than all the Babylonish Worship and Musick in the world Acts 2. 37. Zech. 12. 12. Mat. 5. 4 Mu. Now wo is me is it come to this my hopes are frustrated Is there no way but I must come in at this door Well I do perceive that the Quakers preach not for gold nor silver for if you did you would never preach after this manner for who can take any pleasure in this Doctrine I see now what you drive at for when Peter preacht to the Jewes he told them that they had murdered and betrayed him whom God had made both Lord and King And when they heard this they were pricked at their hearts crying out Men and Brethren what shall we do Truly I do believe there be but few Musitians that ever learnt this Lesson Qu. Mind the gift of God in thy heart Christ Jesus the true Teacher and prize thy pretious time that it may be blessed to thee remember how that he hath waited on thee long O prize the long-suffering of the Lord for it is high time for thee now to return Rom. 2. 4. Mu. Would to God I were of any other Calling for I verily believe that God will overthrow all pleasant things and all false Worship I am sorry I have lived so vainly Bap. I could like the Quakers well if they did not despise the Ordinances as Water-Baptisme and Bread and Wine which are the two Sacraments Qu. Who gave you Baptists Commission to Baptize men and women with Water God never sent you yet you run but God sent John to Baptize with Water and some of his Apostles did it in their freedom and who gave you Commission to eat Bread and to drink Wine The Lord Jesus gave it to his Disciples but whose Disciples are you Ye please your belly and your Faith is of things that are seen but we look not at the things that are seen for they are Carnal but the things that are not seen are Eternal But Bread Wine and Water are seen No marvel that you love good Bread and good Wine and cry them up for Ordinances but if in its place you would put bread of Affliction and water of Affliction till he came and come every First Day to eat this bread of affliction and water of affliction you would not cry up your Ordinances so much as you do neither would you have the tenth part of Communicants as you have Are you not ashamed to intrude into those things you have no Commission for Poor David would not meddle with things that were too high for him Psal 131. 1. But when did you Baptists witness Davids state My tears have been my meat day and night Psal 42. 3. And again I have eaten ashes like bread and mingled my drink with weeping Psal 102. 9. And when did you Baptists fast till men might tell your bones as some of the Quakers have done Are you any better than Queen Elizabeths Fidlers that turned the holy sayings of David into Meeter Hymn and Verse O be ashamed and come to the Light and that will let you see how you have lept above the Life of Christ and his Disciples Come down ye exalted Spirits to the lowly Seed and Learn of him that is meek and low in heart Bap. Did not the Lord command his Apostles to Baptize all Nations in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy Ghost Qu. Yea that he did But who gave you Commission to Baptize any Besides you are blind Guides indeed to go and Baptize with Water and bring the Apostles Commission for it and there was no Water at all in it And Christ himself Baptized none with Water for he was not sent to Baptize with Water but with the Holy Ghost And Paul was not sent to Baptize with Water but to Preach the Gospel But you Baptists were never yet slain you never yet put on the Lord Jesus Christ When did you put on his Sufferings and Sorrows and how are you killed all the day For if you were slain with Christ from the Rudiments of the World why as living in the World are ye subject to Ordinances Surely you do not believe that Christ is come Gal. 3. 27. Bap. Nay We do not believe that Christ is come though we do believe he did once come but we look for him to come the second time Qu. He that believeth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is Antichrist and thou sayest thou dost not believe that Christ is come because thou lookest not where he is manifest in the flesh but thou lookest for him without And Is not Christ in thee except thou be a Reprobate 1 John 4. 3. Col. 1. 27. Bap. Doth not the Text say Ye men of Galilee why stand ye gazing up to Heaven this same Jesus which you now see go into Heaven shall so come in like manner as ye see him Qu. Friend Leave off thy gazing for they were reproved that gazed But come
thou and learn of that Woman and go sweep the house and light the Candle that thou mayest find the lost Groat or Pearl Christ Jesus in thy heart and be not faithless but believe This is in love to you Baptists who are loytering away your precious time for that which never did nor can make perfect Acts 1. 11. Luke 15. 9. Bap. Perfect Why it is a very great question to me whether ever any man was perfect in this Life saving Christ himself nay or ever can be 'T is true indeed you Quakers do hold such Tenets but I do not believe it therefore prove it me by Scripture if you can from Genesis to the end of the Revelations See I have given thee the whole Bible to prove it but you Quakers deny the Scripture Qu. Thou hast given me Scripture room sufficient that 's true but to say the Quakers deny the Scripture in that thou beliest the Innocent Job 4. 7. Bap. Well I have given you Scripture-room enough but I believe you cannot do it for I have searched the Scriptures as well as any of you Qua. But thou mayest erre not knowing the Scriptures nor yet the Power of God Noah was a Just man and Perfect in his Generation Gen. 6. 9. Here was a Just and Perfect man approved of God himself And again God gave testimony of Enoch That he pleased God for he walked with God and was not for God took him and before his translation he had this testimony That he pleased God Gen. 5. 24. Heb. 11. 5. And again the Lord justified Abraham after he had said unto him Walk before me and be thou perfect and Abraham did so for God bore testimony of him and said Abraham obeyed my Voice and kept my Charge my Commandments my Statutes and my Laws Gen. 26. 5. Yea verily and Abraham was called The Friend of God And again God bore testimony of Job That he was a perfect man that did fear God and eschewed evil Job 1. Now Friend Here are four men whom God bore witness off What hast thou against them And David was a man after Gods own heart and God bore witness of him that he failed in nothing saving in the matter of Uriah the Hittite 1 Kings 15. 5. And who did ever go beyond him in his repentance Yet after this he did witness a perfect state For said he God is my strength he maketh my way perfect 2 Sam. 22. 33. And again I will walk within my house with a perfect heart Psal 101. 2. And King Hezekiah said Lord remember now I beseech thee how I have walked before thee in Truth and with a perfect heart Isa 38. 3. And saith David Mark the Perfect man behold the Vpright the End of that man is Peace Psal 37. 37. And again The Lord hath not seen Iniquity in Jacob nor Perversness in Israel as thou mayest read Numb 23. 21. And again They that are in Christ Jesus are New Creatures I in them and they in me perfect in one John 17. And Be you Perfect as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect Mat. 5. And saith the Apostle We speak wisdom to them that are Perfect 1 Cor. 2. 6. 2 Cor. 2. 11. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of Gods Elect Rom. 8. And saith Paul That we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus Col. 1. 28. Ephes 4. 12. Col. 4. 12. 1 Thes 3. 10. 2 Thes 3. 17. Heb. 7. 19. Heb. 10. 14. Heb. 12. 23. Heb. 13. 21. Jam. 2. 22. Jam. 3. 2. 1 Pet. 5. 10. 1 John 4. 18. Rev. 14. 5. Mu. Truly Friend Baptist we are all out of the way we have spoke too much by hearsay of them that they do deny the Scriptures I would you had not said so But I see the poor Quakers put up much wrong for we have had very hard thoughts of them and they have been derided and mocked and hated of many insomuch that they have been punished to death many of them but for my part I shall be silent hereafter for I see they have been misrepresented And although we have said No man can be Perfect in this Life yet who is able to withstand these sound Scriptures and I have heard many say That a man may come to be as wicked as the Devil himself but tâ—uly I do believe that God is above the Devil yet I do not excuse my self for I am a grievous sinner and never look to come to such a state as to be Perfect in this Life Bap. Why no. For the righteousest man that is sins seven times a day Yea John himself said he was a sinner or else he would not have said We for the word we implies himself as well as they But if we say we have no sin we deceive our selves and the truth is not in us Qu. Do not bely the Scripture nor the Spirit that gave it forth for holy men wrote as they were moved by the Holy Ghost and it no where saith That the righteousest man that is sins seven times a day But Stand in awe and sin not And as for John he was a holy man a Divine and could not sin but he wrote to Children first that they might have fellowship with them who were Apostles But they being Children had not fellowship with them who had fellowship with the Father and with the Son Jesus Christ because they were subject to sin And besides Children are apt to sin and to think themselves better than they are which made the Apostle say this If we say we have fellowship with him and walk in darkness we lye and do not the truth Mark For this I do affirm That if John had said he had been a sinner he had lyed for no sinner hath fellowship with God For He that commits sin is of the Devil and God hath no fellowship with Devils But he that is born of God doth not commit sin And John was born of God as he said though he came to his own yet his own received him not but to as many as received him to them gave he power to become the Sons of God and John did receive him who were born mark not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man but of God Yet the Apostle did use a condescending word to the Children in saying We. But let all men take heed how they call that common which God hath cleansed Yet this I say in the truth of God That if any shall say they have no sin when Gods Witness in them doth condemn them for sin they then make God a lyar and we are all sensible that God will not clear the guilty But if we confess our sâ—ns he is just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness And again If we shall say that we have not sinned we lye and do not the truth But he that is born of God sinneth not for his sâ—ed remaineth in him and he cannot
for the Lake I think you are for the Lake more likely But prethee Friend let me ask thee one Question more Qua. Speak on Mu. Doth not the Scripture say I will have mercy and not sacrifice Qua. Yea and it is a precious saying happy are they that can receive it and understand what it means Mu. Then truly if I had been your Counsellour you should never have burnt your Books nor brake and burnt your Instruments for if you could not for conscience sake have followed this Calling then I should have advised you to sell them and to have given the money to the Poor How say you Sir had not that been better Bap. Yes truly in my judgement it had for then some body would have been the better for it Qu. To obey the Lord. is better than to give all my goods to the poor and my body to be burned yet to let thee know the Truth of this thing when I came to be convinced of this everlasting truth I saw my Calling would not stand before it I went but not in the Counsel of the Lord and sold most of my Instruments howbeit that would not cover me for the Lord met with me and as I was learning to sew for I had formerly some insight of a Tailors Trade but I was too high to bow to it till the Truth came and that is of power to make the strong man bow and I sitting alone with my mind turned in the Voice of the Lord said Go thy way and buy those Instruments again thou lately soldest and carry them and the rest thou hast in thy house to Tower Hill and burn them there as a Testimony against that Calling So I obeyed the Lord and bought them again and carried them and all I had in my house to Tower Hill and burnt them there according to the uprightness of my heart before the Lord which Books and Instruments did amount to more than four and twenty pound and I had great peace Glory be to God for ever Amen Mu. But might it not be a delusion and false motion were you never sorry for what you have done in this thing Qu. Yes I was very sorry that when I had brought them to Tower Hill and had begun to set them on fire and when the fire flamed upon them the rude multitude would not suffer me to burn them but put the fire out so I was forced to stamp upon them and break them to pieces for I did it with much indignation though my Father and Grandfather and Great-grandfather were Mufitians yet he that was before sin was taught me to do as I did but I was sorry that I could not be avenged on them as I would but the Lord did accept of it and I had great peace And if at this time I had as many as would amount to a thousand pound of Instruments and Books for that purpose to the fire they should all go for the same indignation is with me still against that practice as against lying and stealing and committing adultery yet there is something in Musick but there is a difference between the Harps of God and the Harps of Men as there is a difference between the Natural man and the Spiritual 1 Cor. 2. 14. Mu. Well but my Friend I must tell you what the Judgement of wise men hath been in this your perverse proceedings for you were then distracted sure enough and it was a very great delusion of the enemy to perswade you from so good a Calling and this they say further That if the truth were known you have been sufficiently sorry for it since and some do verily believe that you will be glad to follow it again if you can but get an opportunity and truly as my old acquaintance I could wish that you would follow it again with all my heart What say you Sir Qu. God forbid that ever such a motion should enter my heart it never did nor never shall What go back and build again the things I have destroyed I have had opportunity sufficient to go back again into Egypt But to answer the thing thou spakest that if the truth were known some say that I have been sufficiently sorry Well both thou and they shall know the truth in this thing Indeed I was sorry at my very heart and to this hour it troubles me That ever I should spend so much of my pretious time so idely in such a cursed practice Acts 11. 17. Mu. But was not David a man after Gods own heart and he played before the Lord and danced before the Ark. And in Solomons day there was Musick in the Temple Qu. What hast thou to do with David or with Solomon or the Temple Where are your Burnt-offerings and Sacrifices you that plead for your Musick Dancing and instance David Solomon Ye filthy hypocrites would you have David and Solomon and the Temple to cover you Behold Nebuchadnezzar that old Idolater who ordained That at the sound of the Cornet Sackbut Dulcimer and all his gang of Fidlers men must bow to his Idol And for this thousand years his Brother the Pope hath set up Mass-houses and Musick and Organs and Bells and Queristers in Idol Temples For Pauls Church was called The Temple of Diana And Peters Church at Westminster The Temple of Apollo And in Rome they had the great God Jupiter and in Florence The Temple of Mars And in other places to other Idols Now Jupiter Mars Apollo and Diana were unclean Spirits and filthy Devils See Bishop Jewel of Salisbury in his Treatise of the holy Scriptures Pag. 30. And in Englands Idol Temples they sing Davids Lamentations but never follow his Practice Psal 6. Prov. 14. 9. Dan. 3. 15. Mu. Truly me thinks when I go to Church and hear the Organs and Voyces and the Discords and Concords I am even ravished to hear and I can praise the Lord with them and t is to me as the joys of Heaven Qu. That Heaven will be shaken and thy Song will be turned into howling for such Musick and Singing was never set up of God but of men and it takes with that part in man that serves not God aright but is for wrath and judgement Hos 12. 26. 1 Cor. 2. 24. Mu. Marry God forbid Friend be advised what you say and take heed for our most learned Divines and reverend Fathers in God that we have in England do highly approve of Musick Qu. T is never the better for that nor they are never the better for being called of men Divines and Reverend Fathers in God when they Persecute the Saints God is highly displeased with them and will give them blood to drink But what effects hath Musick brought forth that men so highly esteem it What fruit did Nebuchadnezzars Musick bring forth in his day was it not to murder But the three servants of the Lord would not bow to his Image at the sound of his Pipes and his Fiddles though others did