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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A41774	The Baptist against the papist, or, The Scripture and Rome in contention about the supream seat of judgment, in controversies of religion together with ten arguments or reasons, discovering the present papal church of Rome to be no true church of Christ : wherein it is also evinced that the present assemblies of baptized believers, are the true church of Jesus Christ / by Tho. Grantham ...	Grantham, Thomas, 1634-1692.	1663 (1663)	Wing G1527; ESTC R40005	55,798	108

hundred years after Christ and if she be not now what she was then in that respect I desire to be informed where that blood-drunken Fornicatrix mentioned Revelation 17. is now to be found The Ninth Reason The present Papal Church hath not those Marks which they themselves assign as the Marks by which the true Church can only be known infallibly Therefore the present Papal Church of Rome is not the Church of Christ Those Marks are 1. ANTIQUITY 2. SUCCESSION 3. VNIVERSALITY of Time and Place 4. VISABILITY 5. SANCTITY 6. VNITY 7. MIRACLES c. These are the Principal The Ninth Reason maintained THat the present Papal Church cannot have the true Mark of Antiquity is thus evidenced viz. The Papal Church is a National Church But no Gospel Church was National in the first Age Therefore no National Church hath the true Mark of Antiquity The strength of this Argument lyeth in the clear difference of the state of the Church under Abraham and Moses to what it was under Christ and his Apostles For The Jewish Church which was to be National took its form in a National way even in the very first Family where it began as appears Gen. 17. where Parents Children and Servants too must all be brought into that Church-state forthwith or not be suffered to co-habit together Which order must be kept in all the Families of the Jews as well in respect of their Servants such as they bought with money as their Children or any other And so the Jewish Church both in its beginning and its continuance acted forth it self in a way suitable to it self But when the Gospel Church began it is very evident that it took its beginning in the division of Families and that by vertue of Christ's Doctrine who affirms That he came to send fire on the Earth not Peace but rather Division For saith he From henceforth there shall be fix●● in one house divided three against two and two against three the Father against the Son and the Son against the Father the Daughter against the Mother and the Mother against the Daughter c. and all this for the Gospel sake Here a man must leave Father Mother Wife and Children For this cause ye shall be betrayed both by Parents and Kinsfolks For this cause the unbelieving Husband will put away his believing Wife And for this cause the Servant may refuse to follow his unbelieving Master being Christ's freeman and yet dwell in his Service as a Servant notwithstanding Thus it 's evident That the Gospel-Church took its beginning in a way quite contrary to the Form of a National Church even by turning the World or Church of the Jews up-side down which caused the Jews to cry out MEN OF ISRAEL HELP This is yet more evident by that thundring Doctrine of the Baptist when he said Think not or begin not to say within your selves We have Abraham to our Father No saith Paul We meaning the Gospel-Church which are of Faith are the Seed of Abraham and Heirs according to Promise For the Promise which chiefly is enjoyed in the Gospel was not made to such as were born after the Flesh but such as are born after the Spirit Whereupon he saith We henceforth know No man after the Flesh or because he descends from the loins of Abraham or any other For if any man be in Christ so as to be a demonstrable or visible Member of his Gospel-Church he is a new-creature Old things are passed away yea the old priviledge of standing in the Church by the Father's interest though the Seed of Abraham himself is now passed behold all things in this respect are become new Whereupon Peter contributeth his sentence and saith Of a truth I perceive God is no respecter of Persons but the Persons accepted upon a Gospel-account so as to be his Church are such as in every Nation fear him and work Righteousness which no Infant can do But what Hath God rejected Infants wholly that now he will not shew them so much favour as afore-time God forbid He hath not shut up his tender Mercies from them wholly or in part For as they are such and dying in their infancy through Adam's transgression so in Christ shall they be made alive Wherefore look how far soever they fall in the first man of the Earth so far they shall be restored by the Lord from Heaven yea the Gift to them by Christ shall exceed the Loss they had by Adam But if they live to years of understanding and become actual sinners against God then the way appointed for the remission of their sins is to repent and be baptized every one of them that they may receive the holy Ghost and so be by it led into all Truth and attain at the end the salvation of their souls through Jesus Christ our Lord. Another Argument whereby it appears the Church of Christ cannot be National is this No man is bound to become a Christian under pain of corporal punishment as Death c. but living peaceably as men no man hath power to compel them to be baptized or to walk in the Christian Profession as is clear from the Texts before recited Now take away Force in matters of Religion and a National Church cannot stand in an absolute National Form this all experience can testifie Again That the Church of Christ at the first or in the first Ages was not National in the first method or way wherein a Church beginneth to be so namely by the admission of Infants into the Church is very evident because it is utterly incredible that the many thousands of Infants of such as in those dayes believed should be admitted into the Church and not so much as the whisper of such a thing to be found in all the holy Writings of the Apostles And beside I have shewed from the Testimony of Vives Augustines Commentor That the Church had not the custom to baptize Infants in old time It is likewise certain if History be true That the Gospel-Church used no compulsion in matters of Faith for more than three hundred years after Christ About which time Constantine ordained grievous punishments for such as spake against Christ and allowed the Christians to use the Unbelievers hardly But God did not bless these doings for Constantine became an Arrian Heretick and persecuted the Bishop that baptized him as also others that continued faithful Hence then I conclude That seeing the present Papal Church of Rome hath not the true Mark of Antiquity Therefore they lose at once the next three Succession Universality and Visibility For Antiquity being wanting no true Succession can be found because the Root of Succession if good must be the Antiquity of it So take Antiquity from them and then wanting that first Age they cannot be found in every Age and not being found in every Age especially the first Age then they lose Visibility as themselves propose it for a Mark of

THE BAPTIST AGAINST THE PAPIST OR The SCRIPTURE and ROME in Contention about the SUPREAM SEAT of JUDGMENT in CONTROVERSIES of RELIGION Together with Ten Arguments or Reasons discovering the present Papal Church of Rome to be no true Church of Christ WHEREIN It is also evinced That the present Assemblies of Baptized Believers are the true Church of Jesus Christ By THO. GRANTHAM a Prisoner for Truths sake Luke 16. 29 31. They have Moses and the Prophets let them hear them If they hear not Moses and the Prophets neither will they be perswaded though one should rise from the dead Ezek. 20. 18 19. But I said unto their children Walk ye not in the Statutes of your fathers c. I am the Lord your God walk in my Statutes and keep my Judgments and do them Joh. 12. 48. The Word that I have spoken the same shall judge you in the last day LONDON Printed in the Year 1663. THE AUTHOR TO THE READER Courteous Reader NOt because I envy those of the Papal Church or desire them any evil Not that I desire they should be exposed to a suffering condition for matters of Religion or that they should be denied any liberty in that respect which I desire my self nor for any other prejudice God knoweth do I publish this small Treatise But because I judge my self concerned at this time to give my Testimony for the Truth against some Papal Tenents for divers causes As first I am at this time under restraint and though nothing hath been laid to my charge yet it is rumour'd by some that I am a Papist yea in this place of my Confinement have I been told to my face by some of the Protestant Clergie that I am a Roman Jesuite And indeed this is an ordinary aspersion which hath been cast upon those in general to whom I am related upon a religious account viz. That we are all Papists or will turn Papists c. and this not so much to our personal prejudice as to the dishonour of that antient way of Truth by us professed Secondly A more particular occasion of the publication of this Treatise proceeded from the Papists themselves in sending Seven Queries to the Baptized Congregations in this County commonly called Anabaptists To which through the importunity of some Friends I formed a brief Answer little thinking I confess that so much contention would have risen thereupon as since I have met with And I likewise confess that the undertaking is such as that it requireth a more fit Instrument than my self to manage it Nevertheless I hope I may say that hitherto what hath come to pass in this contest hath fallen out rather to the furtherance of the Truth for which cause I have thought fit to offer it to the perusal of others so much of it I mean as I conceive is at present needful and that is the substance of what hath passed about the means whereby we must decide or resolve Controversies in Religion It now wants but few months of a year since I sent my final Answer containing a Review of all that had been said in way of Answer to the Queries before in which I produced the Testimony of divers Antient Dictors as concurring with what I had therein spoken and as being directly opposite to my Antagonist But I have heard of late that he is gone out of this Nation so that I expect no more Reply from him And though for divers Reasons hereafter shewed I have not published the whole Discourse which if need be may in due time be brought to light yet I have thought it meet here to set down all the Seven Queries that so if any Christian of suitable endowments for the Vindication of Truth against the opposition that lyeth in the said Queries shall think fit to lay forth his Talent in that Service he may take hold of this occasion wherein to do it for the Queries were not directed to any particular person however I shall joyn to each Query one Antiquery which may serve at this present to blunt the edge of them as they carry an opposition to the Truth The QUERIES The ANTI-QUERIES Query 1. Antiq. 1. VVHether we are to resolve all Differences in point of Religion only out of the written Word of God VVHat Differences in point of Religion can you resolve without the written Word of God and whether the written Word of God be a perfect Rule for matters of Religion Query 2. Antiq. 2. How know you precisely what is the true Word of God Whether some Book must not of necessity speak for it self and whether the Scripture doth not best deserve this priviledge And whether it be not a bold presumption to say there are no holy Books but them which we or you have received for such sith those which we have tell us there are other holy Writings which never yet came to our hands nor to yours Query 3. Antiq. 3. How know you that your Copies and Translations of the Bible are the true Word of God since the Original Writings are not come to your hands What Copies and Translations of the Bible have you that are more true than ours and where are the Original Manuscripts of the Prophets and Apostles Qu. 4. Antiq. 4. Where we differ about the sense of the Word by whom must we be tryed the dead Letter cannot explain it self When we differ about the true Church and about the meaning of Authors by whom must we be tryed They cannot speak for themselves more than the Scripture and whether the Scriptures compared together do not explain themselves also whether it be not an opprobrious and ignominious speech for you to call the Scripture a dead Letter and whether the true lovers of the Scripture ever vouchsafed it such ill and indeed improper language Qu. 5. Antiq. 5. What clear Text have you out of Scripture for the procession of the holy Ghost from the Father the Son or for changing the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday or prohibiting Poligamy or Infant-Baptism And whether there be not as clear Texts to prove unwritten Tradition Purgatory and the real Presence Whether the Baptism of the true Church be not one and whether that one be not expresly found in the Scripture And whether the Scripture doth not prohibit all beside that one And whether the Papists have not confessed in many of their Books that Infant-Baptism is not found in nor grounded upon the Scripture and then whether it be not clear that all the Texts which speak of Baptism do not prohibit Infant-Baptism Also whether Joh. 15. 26. and 14. 26. and 16. 7. be not clear Texts that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son Also whether 1 Cor. 7. 1 2 3. do not as much prohibit one man for having two Wives and one woman for having two Husbands and whether it do not clearly prohibit the latter Also whether there be any that hold the first day under the notion of a Sabbath

I urged that of necessity the Scripture must decide all our Controversies as aforesaid because as things now stand the Word or Scripture is antecedent to the Church so that inasmuch as it is impossible to find the Church without the Scripture it supposes clearly that the Scripture must be found before the Church and so if the Scripture must of necessity resolve this great Controversie about the Church it consequently followeth that they must resolve all Controversies because all Religious Controversies are involved in this one general Query Where is and who are the Church Something here which the Adversary doth further write is omitted because it may be more fitly taken notice of afterward PAPIST I had reason to take notice of your general saying that the Word was antecedent to Faith and the Church since there was a Church and consequently Faith before the Scripture was written Now it seems you meant not the Scripture by the Word but I know not what Word which was afterward committed to writing It is past my understanding what Word you mean for since it cannot be Verbum Scriptum before it be written It must either be Verbum Traditum and I suppose you will not allow that or Verbum Dei Patris and that cannot be the Word you speak of as committed to writing BAPTIST By that Word which was antecedent to Faith and the Church as it relates to the Church under the Patriarchs c. I mean the Word which God spake to them and by them at sundry times and in divers manners And if you take that term Word to relate to the Church of Christ in its plantation then I speak partly of the written Word of God and partly of that which was at that time only spoken by word of mouth by Christ and his faithful Stewards and if you will call this part of the word Verbum Traditum I say that is the Word I speak of And I do also say this Word was afterward committed to writing which Word together with the former I mean that of the Prophets is that whereon the Church as now considered is founded by which she must be known And in this sense I say the holy Scripture is now antecedent to the Church And therefore well spake that Learned person Chrysostom when he forewarned the sons of men that if they took heed to any thing in order to their knowing the Church in the latter times beside Scripture they would fall headlong into the Abomination which maketh desolate and not be able to know the true Church BAPTIST I Think it meet here to give the Reader some account of my Judgment of these five Texts which I brought to justifie my Answer to the first Query which with my Answer was as followeth Qu. Whether we are to resolve all Differences in point of Religion only out of the written Word of God Answ The Spirit speaking in the Scripture together with right Reason as truely subservient is that whereby we are to resolve all Differences c. For proof I cited Isa 8. 20. 1 Tim. 6. 3. 1 Joh. 4. 6. 2 Joh. 9 10. 2 Thess 3. 2. where note that under the term We ought not to be understood any person but the Papists on the one part and the Baptists on the other who do deny each other to be the Church of Christ Now that the Church is to defend her self against all that come to spoil her of her Church-state by the Scripture onely as that which includes her whole strength is that which I brought these Texts to prove And first for that place Isa 8. 20. The Prophet foreseeing a Judgment coming upon Israel even such as God would hide himself from them and the Law and Testimony should be like a Book bound and sealed up as ver 16 17. compared with ch 29. 11 12. The Prophet likewise foreseeing that when God should hide his face Israel would enquire of Wisards and such as spoke from familiar Spirits as Saul did when under the like judgment as 1 Sam. 28. 6 7 8. wherefore the Prophet that he might warn the remnant of faithful ones whom he foresaw would be as wonders amongst the rest commands them as from the Lord that WHEN men should say unto them Seek unto such as have familiar spirits c. to go to the LAW as being their way to go to God himself for saith he Should not a People seek unto their God To the LAW c. and certifies them that by that they should know Deceivers for saith he If they speak not according to This Word the Law there is no light in them So that I infer thus much that when such as are enemies to the Church come to invade the Saints with their deceit the only infallible way to know them to be Deceivers is to enquire of God's Law and Testimony I know that Israel had the Testimony or standing Oracle beside the written Law And the Church now hath the new Testimony open in the Church beside the Law Prophets hereunto I say the Church is only to apply her self as aforesaid to find out the deceit of those who would rob her of that inheritance which she holdeth by the deeds of God's Law and Promises contained in Scripture by these as the only infallible Rule she knows those to be lyars who say they are the Church and are not And to this agrees the next three Scriptures the very reading whereof sheweth that when the Controversie is between the Church and such as pretend falsly to that Title the onely infallible means to refel them is the Spirit speaking in Scripture c. For thus saith the first of them If any man teach otherwise and consent not to wholsom words even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Doctrine that is according to Godliness he is proud knowing nothing but doting about questions c. Thus saith the second He that knoweth God heareth us he that is not of God heareth not us Hereby know we the Spirit of Truth and the spirit of Error The third saith thus Whoso transgresseth and abideth not in the Doctrin of Christ hath not God He that abideth in the Doctrine of Christ hath both the Father and the Son If there come any unto you and bring not this Doctrine receive him not into your house neither bid him God-speed From these Texts it appears that unless the Papists can produce something which they can infallibly prove to be Christ's Doctrine beside what is contained in holy Scripture or that the Apostles may be heard as infallibly by some other means as by the holy Scripture or that the Saints received some Doctrine for Christs that is not contained in the Scripture I say unless they can infallibly shew something of this nature my Answer is good But if they can produce any other thing of such authority then I acknowledge my Answer to be deficient Howbeit if any man or the Church her self