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A70985 The reign of the whore discovered and her ruine seen her merchants the priests examined, and with the Romish church (their elder sister) compared and found agreeable in many things ... : some queries also for those people that pay tythes, and priests that receive tythes, to consider and answer : and whereas their cry hath been loud against us the people of God called Quakers, that we are Jesuits, and Jesuitical, in tryal they are found false accusers, and of the same stock and generation themselves ... : also the sustance of a dispute which was the 15th day of the 2d month, called April 1659, at the Bridge-house in Southwark, between VVilliam Cooper, VVilliam VVhitaker, Thomas VVoodsworth, VVieles, Watkins, Cradicut, and others who profess themselves ministers of Christ, and some of the people call'd Quakers ... / written in that which gives to see over all the popish train ... W.S. Smith, William, d. 1673.; Burrough, Edward, 1634-1662. Following letter containing the substance of the dispute. 1659 (1659) Wing S204A; ESTC R33983 31,593 40

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way of maintenance in your ministry by Tithes and gleab-lands and Easter reckonings and so much a year out of your Parish did not all this proceed out of the Church of Rome and was not in the day of the Apostles nor practised by Christs ministers but from the Whore you have had this also this way of being maintained and suing people at the Law for your Tithes and for your money Christs ministers never did thus but the Churh of Rome hath been the originall of all these things and practises and from whence had you this practice of sprinkling infants and calling it the Baptisme into the faith and into the visible church did not this come from Rome and have not you received it from thence if there was any such Institution or Practice amongst the Apostles prove it by Scripture else we will not believe you but must tell you the originall of this came from Rome and you have drunken the Whores cup and been made drunk thereby so now when we examine you throughly in your wayes and practices we find you agreeing with the Jesuites in many things and while you accuse others your selves are guilty and now people begins to see your shame and you cannot hide it for the witness is risen in people and the seed of God is coming forth which tramples over and treads down the false church and all her false ordinances and institutions and her cup must be broken to pieces and she shall no more make the Nations drunk and as for you false ministers though you pray and preach and cry against Heresie and Error and would beg Laws to suppresse it as ye say yet your selves are found guilty of the error and you want the spirit of truth to guide you and your own hearts are not cleansed and then how can you cleanse others and that which you call error and heresie is truth for your judgements are corrupted and your eye is blind and what you know you know naturally and not by the teachings of the spirit of God but by Traditions and by the words of other men without you and the holy anointing in your own selves you know not for you have not received it And whereas you queried whether the Scriptures were the word of God and the rule of life I do now answer The Scriptures were given forth by the spirit of God and are the words of God the word was in them that gave them forth and Christ is that word and the Scriptures testifie of him the Scriptures are not the rule of life but the spirit that gave them forth that is the rule to the children of God for as many as are the sons of God are led by the spirit of God and them that walk according to that rule of the spirit peace is upon them and so it is the spirit of God that gave forth the Scriptures that is the rule of life and not the Scriptures yet where the spirit is the rule it leadeth up according to the Scriptures in the fulfilling of them and as for ye hypocrites who do profess the Scriptures to be your rule and yet walks contrary to the Scriptures your own rule condemns you and out of your own mouths will the Lord judge you Is the Scripture your rule to preach for hire and to have so much a year for preaching and if any will not pay them to sue them at the Law and take their goods by violence and to cast their bodies into prison this is the practice of many ministers in this nation but what rule in all the Scripture have you for these things or vvhat example saving from the false Prophets false Apostles and vvhat rule have you in all the Scriptures for sprinkling of infants and calling it Baptisme into the faith and what rule have you to take Tithes and are not you hypocrites to professe the Scriptures to be your rule and yet act these things which the Scripture neither gives Commandment nor example for but the rather bears witness against but who hath the spirit and walks by that rule sees you and judges you who are out of the life of the Scriptures in the life that is contrary and with the spirit of God are you reproved in all your wayes of darknesse and error And whereas you queried concerning the light within we do say that Christ the second A●am lighteneth all mankind that be come into the world and this light John bare witness of and it shined in darkness and the darkness comprehended it not and that was it that enlightened every man that cometh into the world and this light brings all to receive Christ that doth believe and they that believe not this light is their condemnation and though you stumble at this stumbling stone as your Fathers the Jews did yet unto us that do believe Christ the light of the world is precious and all that comes to the knowledge of God must come to the true knowledge by the light that shines 〈…〉 hearts for it is the light that shines in the heart that gives the knowledge of God and although you wise builders do stumble at the foundation yet it will break you to pieces and confound you utterly for the light is risen in the hearts of many which light gives them the knowledge of God and the knowledge of you and all your false wayes of error and brings men to depart from them all and to follow the Lord in righteousness and so every man is lightened that they may believe and they that believe and walk in the light shall be saved but they that believe not but hate the light shall be condemned and this is their condemnation that light is come into the world and into their hearts and as for you you are but shallow men for you want the knowledge of God and truth stands over you though you oppose it and it will grow to a Mountain where all the Righteous shall be refreshed and the Lord is begun to work in the earth he hath set his hand to pull down Babylon and there shall not one stone be left upon another and all her Merchandise shall fail and her strong holds shall be broken down and all her Merchants shall howl and lament therefore now consider it ye Leaders of the people the day of the visitation is now but it will suddenly be shut up with the night of darkness upon you and you will be wounded and you can never be healed you will be ruined and can never be revived This is from a lover of your Souls EDWARD BURROUGH Something after AND now you Priests the black Clergy of England who count your selves Orthodox men sound able Ministers of the Gospell of Christ know and consider and let it be known to and considred by all people that we slander you not nor do you no wrong in disowning you to be the Ministers of Christ and in comparing you to the black bloody Popish trait your
that it hath been a great crime among poor ignorant people to hear them called otherwise is stil especially in some places of this Nation Were they not the Popes Mass-Houses and places of their Idolatrous Worship And what Rule have you in the holy Scriptures for any to worship the true God in these Idolatrous Dens and Popish Houses and to call them such and such a Saints Church especially without alteration in form in name and esteem Did the children of Israel do so Did the primitive Christians do so VVhere is your example And who made George a Saint and Katherine and Olives Mary Overies and Giles and Gregory c. that your Churches are called by their Names are they not of the Popes making are you not ashamed that people should call those places Churches And then concerning your Manners and Worship in these places Is it not your manner before your Worship begins to ring Bells to call your Hearers your Brethren together and whom do you imitate and who learnt you this but the papists and why do you deny them in words and imitate them in practice And is it not your manner to get an hour-glass to preach and pray by and to sing by and have you not the chief seats in the Assemblies the popish Train hath so and are you not like them Do not they worship and preach and pray and sing by the hour then do you not agree with them Did ever the true Christians and Christian Ministers do so And why must you have a soft Cushion with silken Jobs at the corners to lean on to read your studied devised framed artificial Sermon or speech to the people And by what order was your Pulpit or high place hung with imbroydered Cloath and some other of your stalls lined with cloath when others want it to wear even of your own heap and sect and fold Who are you like in this Have you any such president in the holy Scriptures What and where is your Rule and Example If you must have a Cushion cut off the Jobs and if you must have a Pulpit take off your imbroydered cloaths and cloathe your brethren which are within your own Parish and of your own flesh and do not let them go up and down begging for clothes and food while your Pulpits and Stalls or other chief Seats are clothed imbroydered and laced What manner of Christianity and brotherly love is there among you towards one another And how come you by this manners among you that he that hath a Gold Ring and costly Apparel and is called a rich man must have a sumptuous seat in the principal place and others in vile rayment can scarce have a place to sit on but must stand afar off Where I say did you learn this manners Did you learn it of the Church of Christ or the Pope and his Church And is it not your manner and custom to respect persons places times dayes things Doth not the Heathen so and the Papists so Then who may we compare you with if not with those Did ever any of the primitive Christians do so Was it their manner to respect the person of him or her that had a Gold Ring or costly Apparel Or was it their manner to respect or cry up the Jewish Synagogues or Heathen Idolatrous Temple or any particular place or house whatsoever as the onely place of Worship and call it a Church Or did the Church of God in the dayes of Moses and the Prophets when the Lord had given them victory over the Heathen their Enemies did they I say preserve the Heathenish Idolatrous places of Worship as Altars Groves and Temples and teach the people to call them Churches Was it not as lawful for those places to be called a Church as 't is for these popish Dens builded with observation East and West with a picture of a Cock and a Cross upon it as the Papists devised and appointed to be called a Church Did not the Ministers of Christ gather people out of them and bear their testimony against them and all Temples made with hands Did not the Lord by his Hammer and battel-Ax of War break down burn and utterly destroy those places and Images and Groves set up and consecrated by the Idolaters Did not the Lord begin such a work in this Nation some years since And hath some Instruments proved like Jehu begun in zeal and ended in covetousness which is Idolatry and hath not regarded the Law of God withall their heart And shall that frustrate the work and purpose of the Lord Is he not raising others to accomplish his Work and fulfil his Decree against the Adulterous generation of what name or sect soever and down in esteem if not in form must the Popish Mass-Houses come and which is now the Priests Market place and called a Church and down must your Bells and Pulpit-embroydered cloathes and such like trumpery come which hath been set up in the time of Popery and since the cry was Who is able to make war with the Beast And then is it not your manner to respect times dayes and things Are you not like the Papists in this also And have you not learnt of the Pope Bishops Cardinals Jesuits Priests Fryers and Monks and Heathens how and what to call your times dayes months and quarters c. Have they not all Heathenish and Popish Names The holy Scriptures you are not ashamed to say is your Rule but in what one thing do you walk according to your pretended Rule unless you mean the Popish Heathenish Scriptures or Writings call them your holy Rule if you mean those you shall be believed because you are found walking thereafter but if you mean the Writings which holy men wrote as they were moved by the Holy Spirit we know you are lyars and cannot believe you for they never learnt you to follow the manners and customs of the Heathen nor Papists as you do in respecting and naming or calling your Times Dayes Months and things the Scripture of Truth teacheth to call Days and Months after this manner First day second day third day fourth day fifth day sixth day seventh day First month second month third month and so to the twelfth month The Heathen and Papists and their Writings teacheth to call the first day of the Week Sunday or dies Solis the day of the Sun the second day Monday or dies Lun● the day of the Moon or the Moons day the third day Tuesday the fourth Wednesday the fifth Thursday sixth Fryday the seventh Saturday according to the Names of the 7. Planets wch the Heathen and Papists talk so much of And the first Month they call March the second April and so on to the eighth Month which is called October which signifieth the eighth Month November the ninth Month December the tenth Month from the Lattin words Octo Novem Decem eight nine and ten and the eleventh Month you call
January and the twelfth Month February Now do you not prefer the Heathenish and Popish Traditions Rules Customs Manners and Writings before and above what is delivered prescribed and taught in the Writings of the holy men of God so that it is come to pass by your so doing that if people are brought to call daies and months and times and places and persons according as those did who had the spirit of God which the Scriptures teacheth and witnesseth unto I say When people are brought to this they become a hissing and a wonder among you and are counted nice and frivolous and unmannerly and when we speak and write of hours dayes and months as they are recorded in the Scripture people cannot tell what we mean nor how to understand us nor when such a time hour day or month is but will rather mock and jeer at first hour first day first month c. and will have no such reckoning of times in their temporal civil or spiritual Accompts these are your Auditors your Disciples or Schollars as you have learnt you teach as you the Priests are so are the people imitators of the Papists and Heathen in this as well as other things and the Christians life words manners and behaviour you are out of and strangers to and may we not justly with the Heathen and Papists compare you whose example you follow And then concerning the manner of your publike Divine Worship as you call it have you not this manner and custom as the first part of your Worship to sing David's Psalms in rime and meeter divised or turned thereinto by Poets or Musicianers as Thomas Sternhold and John Hopkins and others with apt Notes to sing them withall before your prayer and after your Prayer before your Sermon and after your Sermon of all the people together Is not this your own invention Was there any such manner of singing in the Church of Christ You say Let us sing to the praise and glory of God and you keep an Officer to read the Psalm to people which are some drunkards some covetous some proud some defrauders of their Brethren dissemblers double dealers some Adulterers and unclean persons some jesters and idle talkers some light and vain wild and wanton some scornful high-minded and mockers some disobedient to Parents unthankful and unholy and of rude unchristian behaviour Of such consisteth your Church and are not the Steeplehouse-singers such And can such persons sing to the praise and glory of God Or are they in a state and condition fit to sing at all Doth not weeping and howling mourning sorrow and lamentation and wo from the dreadful Lord God of Heaven and of Earth belong to such singers Singing with Grace in the heart unto the Lord we own but singing with wickedness with pride and covetousness in the heart we utterly deny Singing with the Spirit and with understanding we own but your singing by Letter with Musical Notes and Tunes customarily ignorantly without understanding we wholly disown and bear our testimony against it as abomination in the sight of the Lord and it was never ordained nor appointed in nor by the true Church but it hath been ordained and appointed by the false Church the Whore and her Merchants in the dark night of Apostacy since the dayes of the Apostles and since the true Church fled in to the Wilderness And is not this singing of David's Prayers Mournings Sighings Complainings and Cryes unto the Lord and his Praises Rejoicings and magnifying the Lord and such like conditions as David was in I say Is not your singing of these things like the Papists singing have you any more rule in the Scripture for your singing then the Papists have for their singing And hath it not been one of the Whores later invention and addition to your Worship even about the time of Queen Elizabeths reign in this Nation but the same pure eternal light which appeared in the hearts of some about the beginning of our English Wars and manifested much of the Popish Trumpery which was then in being of which quiristers and singing-boys in white Surplices was one I say the same pure eternal light hath manifested your singing and noise to be as abominable in the ears of the Lord as theirs and to be denyed and witnessed against for you have no more rule in the Scripture for your singing David's Prayers then the quiresters and singers then had to sing the Prayer which Christ taught his Disciples which they called Pater Noster Which of all you Mass-house Singers are or ever were what you sing as when you sing O Lord I am no● puft in mind and that your eys are not scornful Are you not of such a proud and hard heart and puft up mind and scornful eyes many of you that you will scarce look upon nor walk with nor relieve those that are poor though they be of your own Church Then do you not sing a lye in this And is that to the praise and glory of God Surely you dare not say that God is glorified with a noise of lyes not that David's Psalms are lyes but you being not in the same state condition and life that David was in they are lyes in your mouths David said Mine eys gush out with Rivers of water because they keep not thy law I am afflicted ready to dye from my youth up while I suffer thy terrors I am d●stracted I am like a Bottle in the smoak I am like an Owle in the desert I am like a Pellican in the Wilderness I am like a Sparrow alone upon the house top all my friends and acquaintance hath forsaken me This David said and you sing these words ignorantly customarily never witnessing the same state condition so they are lyes in your mouths and God is not glorified but dishonored by you in this part of your Worship and your singing and the Papists and quiristers and Surplice-boys singing is abomination alike in the sight of the Lord and in the sight of his servants who are redeemed from amongst you and from under the great Whore which sits upon the Waters but the Lord our God is taking her seat from under her and into the pit she with her golden Cup full of Sorceries Witchcrafts and Fornications shall fall and none shall be able to deliver her neither can she save her self nor those that hath been and still are made drunk with her Sorceries and deceiveable ways of unrighteousness of which this trick craft and art of singing is one James said Is any merry let him sing Psalms He wrote these words to Saints but hear what he wrote to such as you Cleanse your hands ye sinners and purifie your hearts ye double-minded be afflicted and mourn and weep let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy into heaviness Such as these hath no cause to be merry who are sinners whose hands are uncleansed and whose hearts are unpurified and whose minds are double And
to be Deceivers and false Teachers and of Antichrist and your fruits and works doth manifest it and thereby do we know you not to be the Ministers of Christ but false Teachers as I have said And whereas you affirmed your selves to be Ministers of Christ and went about to prove it by your Arguments of invented Logick and the substance and intent of your first Argument was Those that have the Characters and Signs upon them spoken of in 1 Tim. 3. are Ministers of Christ but you have those Signs and Characters upon you and therefore You are Ministers of Christ Ans. Now this Scripture which you have mentioned for proof of your Ministry when you are truly laid to the line and measure thereof will prove that you are not true Ministers for you are not thus qualified in your Spirits and Conversation as this Scripture doth signifie but the contrary fruits and effects doth appear from you then is set down in this Scripture Are you blameless in your conversations And are you sober and of good behaviour and given to Hospitality and apt to teach And are you not given to Wine and filthy Lucre And are you patient not brawlers nor covetous And are you not lifted up with pride And are you of good report And do you hold the mysterie of faith in a pure conscience These things were required to be in the Ministers of Christ and have you these characters and are you such as is here spoken of And have you these fruits and marke upon you now are you to be tried and and I am searching your own proof whether it holds sound to confirm that for which you brought it No it is manifest by your fruits according to your own proof that you are men of another generation and are bringing forth fruits and works clean contrary to them whom the Apostle allows of for Ministers For you are not blamelesse nor sober nor of good behaviour for you are guilty of the pride and vanity of this world and live in envy and bitternesse and so not blamelesse nor sober nor of good behaviour neither apt to teach for you want the Spirit that was in the Apostles and you cannot speak as that Spirit gives you utterance but you speak from humane study and what you have gathered from other mens works and many of you are given to wine and strong drink and are greedy of filthy lucre and sue men at Law for wages and remove from one place to another for more means and for greater hire and this is covetousnesse and greedinesse of filthy lucre which you to wit genrally the Priests are known to be guilty of through the whole Land and ye have an ill report to be covetous men and proud men and ambitious and self-seeking men this report you have of many that are without and the poore unconverted people they know you to be guilty of these things and your Consciences are not pure neither do ye hold the mysterie of faith in it but your consciences are defiled with the evil and sinfull practises of this wicked world and that faith that you professe is not the true faith that the Apostles had which gave them victory over the world and over all sinne for you are in the pollutions of the world unsanctified and the guilt of sinne lies upon you these things are true as the Witness in your own consciences may testifie● so that your own proof and evidence hath condemned you and the Scripture by which you thought to prove your selves Ministers of Christ it hath turn'd upon your own heads and manifested the contrary and though you have said you were qualified according to that Scripture and therefore you were called into the mini●st● and were the true Ministers yet the contrary is discovered and that you are qualified by a contrary spirit and have the marks and characters upon you not of the true ministers of Christ but of 〈◊〉 spoken of in 2 Tim. 3. and according to that sort of false Teachers are you qualified and therefore in Practice and conversation you do not agree with the Apostles but are different and contrary to them and are according to the false Teachers and false Apostles and with them you do agree in spirit and in practice in many things And as to your call to the Ministry you are not able to make any good proof thereof at all nor did not at that time but some of them did deny that the anointing the unction of the holy Spirit was necessary unto the Ministry and this was the Argument That all things were mentioned for the qualification of a Minister in that 1 Tim. 3. but the holy unction is not mentioned therefore the unction of the spirit is not necessary to the Ministry Answer Something was spoken to this before as to shew the ignorance of it and the wickednesse of this Argument and some of you were partly ashamed of it your selves and had not the man and you been vvholly ignorant and blind this would never have proceeded from amongst you and are you like to be Ministers of Christ who hath asserted That the spirit of God and the anointing is not necessary to the ministry Was ever the like ignorance uttered by any before you even your Fathers the Friars at Rome would be ashamed of you herein to utter such dark and ignorant assertions Is this your Learning and your wise Logick to prove the anointing unnecessary to the ministry and such ministers we believe are you that have not the holy unction of the spirit but are ministers of the letter and by the will of man and not by the spirit nor of the spirit and so your call is not the same as was the Apostles but contrary to them and different from them so that we cannot own you to be ministers of Christ for ye are different and contrary to them both in your call and in your conversations And though you seemed to deny to be made ministers by your Learning and Education yet it is manifest that through that you received the ministry through the attainments of such Arts and Sciences and at last you came to attain to the Office of Ministers as you say and it was not by the call of the spirit nor by the gift of the holy Ghost for that you have in part denied and saith the unction is not necessary to the Ministry so it is but your hypocrisie to deny that you are made Ministers by your natural learning for we know that thereby onely and without the Gift of the Holy Ghost did you attain to that Ministry which now you hold cannot convert sinners to God nor turn the wicked from his evil way for it answers not the testimony of God in people but people remains always blind and ignorant under it and you go on dreaming for carnal ends unto your selves seeking for your hire and for your gain and therefore we do deny that you are true Ministers of Christ for you