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A41388 Firmianus and Dubitantius, or, Certain dialogues concerning atheism, infidelity, popery, and other heresies and schisme's that trouble the peace of the church and are destructive of primitive piety written in a plain and easie method for the satisfaction of doubting Christians / by Tho. Good. Good, Thomas, 1609-1678. 1674 (1674) Wing G1029; ESTC R23950 83,883 174

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is certain that a●prophane carless performing of Divine service is a very great sin and a necessary cause of irreligion and practical Atheism one exception I had allmost forgott which concerns Choristers who are said to be for the most part very untoward Children Firm. First This cannot be denyed but the reasons are first negligence in the Musick Masters whose chiefest care it is to teach them to Sing and the end why they Sing namely to set forth the Praises of their Creator neither are they so careful to instruct them how to behave themselves reverently and devoutly at the worship and service of God Secondly Some of them are not set to the Grammer School where upon they squander away a great part of their time in vain sports and idleness which is the Mother of all villany and wickednss Thirdly But the chiefest reason of all is that our Choristers are commonly the Children o● mean Parents who for the most part are very ignorant in the great matters of Religion and extreamly negligent in the concerns of their own and their Childrens Souls Now Deans and Chapters are necessitated to make choise of such poor Children because the better sort of people disdain to have their Children brought up in that noble Science of Musick which is their gross ignorance besides their scorn and contempt of this Science they misconceive that if they should send them to the Musick School it would hinder them in their Grammer learning which might easily be prevented by imploying those hours only at Musick which are spent in foolish insignificant sports and pastimes which as I am inform'd is the practise in some places beyond Sea where their youths spend much of the afternoons in Musick and Dancing Training Mathematicks and such like manly and profitable exercises which conduce both to the health of the body and benefit of the understanding Dub. I perceive that those exceptions against Deans and Chapters and Cathedral service are not so substantial as once I conceived them to be If you please we will now proceed to those which I have heard urged with much earnestness against ●et forms of Prayer and in particular against the Liturgie of the Church of England Firm. Most willingly I pray you favour me with the recital of them Dub. 'T would be to much trouble and to little purpose to mention all that I have heard seing many of them are very frivolous and not worthy of a serious answer those that seem to be the most material are First that they are imposed by mans Authority Secondly they stint the Spirit Thirdly they are cold and dead forms our Spirits are not affected and quickned by them as by conceived and extemporary Prayers Firm. First whatsoever is imposed upon us by mans Authority contrary to the word of God is utterly unlawfull but set Forms taken out of ●ods word are not contrary to that word especially when not only the very matter of them is contained in Holy Scripture but the very words and phrase 'T is a strange peice of nonsence that what is in it self lawfull and laudable should cease to be so because 't is commanded by our Superiors True indeed that things in themselves lawfull being in their own nature but indifferent if commanded as necessary and intrinsically holy are upon that account unlawfull and repugnant to Christian liberty but more of this when we shall di●course about Ceremonies Secondly That the Spirit is stinted by a set Form and that Reading of Prayers out of a Book cannot be praying by the Spirit To this I reply That if their were any truth in these exceptions how comes it to pass that ●e have so many set Forms of Prayer and thanksgiving in Holy Scripture How do set form● of Prayer more stint the Spirit then set Forms of Psalms for Singing Yea does a set Form of Prayer more stint the Spirit then the extemporary conceptions of the Minister limit and stint the Spirit of the Congregation to whom they are upon this account in the nature of set Forms When these queries shall be rationally answered I shall through away all set Forms which have been used by the ●hristian Churches for above 1400 years Besides those of the Presbyterian perswasion allow'd them as lawfull in their conferences with the Bishops anon after his Majesties restauration As to the other part of the other exception that reading of Prayers out of a Book cannot be praying by the Spirit this to those who understand the true meaning of that Phrase is a most frivilous cavill for setting aside the extraordnary gift of prayer to pray in or by the Spirit denotes first the making of our prayers according to the mind of the Spirit exprest in the Scripture as may appear Col. 3.16 Secondly to pray by the Spirit is to pray by that principle of grace wrought in our hearts by the Holy Spirit and enabling us to every good duty as well as to prayer Thirdly to pray by the Spirit is when the Spirit do's stir up our hearts to this Holy duty working in us good desires and motions quickning our faith and fervency whereby our hearts minds spirits go along with out Tongues and Words utterd either in a set Form or by our extemporary expressions which is usually practized by knowing Christians in their Closset devotions Dub. I confess I am not able to shew why set Forms of Prayer should stint the Spirit more then set forms of Singing and I am perswaded that praying by the Spirit signifies no more then the assistance of the holy Spirit quickning and stirring us up to and in Prayer whereby our hearts and spirits are fixed in that holy duty joyning and going along with the Tongue and Voice but truly I find by experience that my Spirit is more stirred up by a Prayer that is new which I never heard before being lively deliver'd then by a common Form read out of a Book Firm. This is the chiefest reason ●hich renders men such admirers of extemporary Prayers and so opposite to set forms their own experience tels them that they are more taken with such Prayers then with common Forms read out of a Book whi●h phanciful experience no wise man will plead against reason and judgment it being very deceitful and the issue of a very common corruption and humane infirmity which inclines us to be more taken with what is new then with what we have often heard especially when 't is deliver'd in a lively tone with pleasing actions and gesticulations of the Body and without Book though for substance and soundness what is read be infinitely before it Pray Sir answer me but this one question whether are your affections more stir'd up at the reading of some portion of Scripture by the Minister or at a good Sermon delivered from the Pulpit Dub. I confess I am much more affected my affections are more wrought upon by a good Sermon deliver'd with life and action then at the reading of the best Chapter
God Dub. You have abundantly satisfied me that the Sun had not an eternal being and consequently that neither men beasts or plants could be from all eternity however I desire to hear from you some particular arguments against the eternity of man-kind Firm. There is no particular man but had beginning was made and begotten by his Parents they by theirs and so we must ascend from son to father up to all eternity usque ad infinitum which is utterly impossible or else we must come to a first man who could not make or beget himself Now if every particular man be made and begotten then the whole kind must be made because the whole kind is nothing else but the Collection of all particulars Every one of them we see by daily experience had a beginning and is begotten or made therefore 't is made by some other for quicquid fit fit ab alio and this of some other and so forward until we come to the supream cause of all things which is God Again Either all men that are or ever were in the world were made or some were made and some not made but had being of themselves if so 't is impossible that these men should be of the same kind with the men that were made for that which is made depending upon another cannot be of the same kind with that which is not made and independent because a thing that is not made infinite independent is of another kind from what is made finite and dependent and these two finite and infinite dependent and independent are opposite members dividing one and the same most common kind Dub. 'T is a clear demonstration that every particular man being made the whole kind must be made hut pray tell me might there not be a perpetual successive generation of men up to all eternity and so a processus in infinitum an infinite number of them without all beginning Firm. This is altogether impossible for in a Catologue or Series of things every one of which had a beginning as 't is evident that every particular man had and consequently the whole Series there cannot possible be a processus in infinitum up to all eternity or an infinite succession of causes and effects without all beginning Eternity properly so called has neither beginning no● end for 't is duratio interminabilis an infinite unlimited duration and therefore whatsoever had a beginning cannot possibly be eternal but the whole series of men had a beginning for whatsoever is made had a beginning but the whole Series of men was made therefore it had a beginning for every particular man had a begining therefore the whole Series which is nothing else but a collection of all particulars and therefore it cannot be equal or comensurable to eternity which is without beginning Again If the ●eries or rank of men did run up to eternity or into an infinite number of successive generations then that infinite number of men have been swallowed up of death many millions of years before this age we live in and so death has passed over that number which is contrary to that certain principle infinitum non potest pertransiri 't is impossible to pass over or through that which is infinite nay then ●here would not be any man living at present for if an infinite number of men are already dead then all the men that ever were or may be are dead for infinito nihil pot●st ●ddi Yea if the world should continue ten millions of years longer there could not be after those ten millions of years more men in it then there were ten millions of years before this present for nothing can be added to that which is properly infinite to make it greater in magnitude or more in number neither could the Father be before the Son nor the gre●t Grandfather before or elder then either nam in aternitate non datur prius posterius In this infinite duration there is no former or latter and consequently had the world been from all eternity it could not truly be said that any man was before another not Abraham before Isaac or he before Jacob. Dub. You have made it very plain that the world had a beginning and consequently because t is ridiculous to suppose that it had its beginning from it selfe chance or Atomes that there is one supream cause of infinite power and wisdome the Creator of Heaven and Earth and of all things therein contained which is the Glorious and eternal God of whose being I hope I shall hence forth never entertain the least doubt Firm. Though you seem to be well satisfied with these reasons which I have urged for the being of God yet because something in them are not so intelligible to men of ordinary Capacities who perhaps may cast their eyes upon these papers you shall give me leave to use other reasons that are more plain and familiar and such as may perswade more with men of ordinary abilities then those that I have proposed to you● self Dub. Though I am fully satisfied in that great fundamental point yet in this I commend your Charity and do not envy the satisfaction of others But I believe you cannot alledge more convincing reasons th●n those which you have already made use of however I desire to hear what you can further say for the Con●irmation of this very great truth Firm. The other reason which I shall produce shall b● taken from the Goodly fabrick of the world the harmonious order of all things therein contained the horror of conscience in wicked men the dread of perjury in very heathens the appearance of evil Spirits their strange working in witches and wizards which may be seen more largely treated of in Doctor Fotherbys Atheomastix Doctor Andrews Cattechisme Du-Plessis truth of Christian Religion Grotius of the same Doctor Mores Antidote against Atheism Parsons Resolutions Doctor Stillingfleets Origines sacrae Gales Gentils Court Mr. Baxters Christian Religion with many others I shall breifly sum up what these learned men have wrot at large beginning with that argument which is taken from the Goodly fabrick of the world 1. T was excellently said of Tertul. lib. de Resur facilius credas Prophetiae si sis discipulus naturae if we be conversant in the works of nature they will lead us to the knowledg and beliefe of Scripture There is a most sweet harmony betwixt those two Books the Book of Nature and the Book of Grace What is said of the one monstrat Quaelibet herba Deum every herb or plant does shew there is a God is most true of the Scripture Quaelibet linea Deum refert every line in this Book shews us the power providence and wisdome of God And if the Atheist will disdain to read this excellent Commentary upon the Book of nature let him seriously peruse the Text the harmonious beauty and order of the Universe Plato and some other of the Antients were used to demonstrate the
justice of their cause are guilty before God os Treason Murder and Rebellion Dub. This censure is very severe and yet I cannot tell what to reply against it Many well meaning people observing certain abuses in Church and Common-wealth much desired a reformation of them and promised to themselves great things from the Long Parliament whereupon such is the brutish inclination of earnest desires and great expectations in the minds of men that are of short discourse that these poor inconsiderable persons were engaged against King and Country before they had well weighed That good Intentions cannot justify unlawful Actions That God has no need of the sinner That we must not do evil that good may come thereon But I am perswaded that these seduced men do see their former errors and are ●ruly penitent abominating from their hearts all Treasons and Rebellions against their Dread Sovereign and for the future will keep themselves from such unchristian practises Firm. I much commend you for your Chari●y and for those that had their hands in that grand Rebellion acd are no● truly penitent my hearty prayers are that the Lord would be merciful unto them and bless them and shew them the light of his countenance My severe censure as you were p●●ased ●o ●ail it was never intended against such but we see very few that have manifested any signal tokens of repentance for their lifting up their hands against the Lord 's Anointed rather we may fear they will commit the same wickedness against his Majestie that now swayes the Royal Scepter if they hid a fair opportunity Disobedience is a long step to Rebellion and is it not evident that our present Non-conformists are more disobedient more refractory against his Majesties Laws Ecclesiastical then those that lived before the late warrs who though they were Non-conformists yet were they not Separatists Brownists as our present Non-conformists for the most part are some of them Mr. as Ball in his Tryal of the grounds of Separation and others smartly wri●ng against such Fanati●ks And truly were there not a judicial blindness upon these men they might see by a wonderful providence the Lord did not own them in their Rebellious undertakings How strangely did their numerous and potent Armies dwindle into no thing ho● miraculously was our Gratious Soveraign preserved against all their Treasonable attempts and brought to the Throne of his Fathers with the greatest honor most general expressions of love and rejoycing that ever any Prince received from ●oyal Subjects and all this without the spil●ing of one drop of blood The Lord set it upon the heart of King and People to keep this sign●l dispensation of His Providence in perpetual remembrance not to ruine thēselves by Atheism Irreligion Profaneness or any enormous wickedness for which the wrath of God has b●en pou●ed out in full Viols upon wicked Kings and ungodly people as Sacred and other ●i●●ories do s●sficiently manifest Dub. It may be feared that there are discontented persons who are like wrangling Gamsters that having a bad game dealt them desire the Cards might be shuffl'd again that they might have a better Stock but I am perswaded many would conform were there a Toleration in Reference to some Ceremonies as has been said and the Renouncing of the Covenant not enjoyn'd Firm. You have had my opinion as to a Toleration in point of Ceremonies as to the Covenant tho it h●s been the opinion of several moderate men that it had been better if it had dyed without any such solemn Act for ' its Abrenunti●tion yet being it was peccant in all the four causes the Efficient Formal Material and Final 't was expedient in some respects for the Parliament to vote that it should be Renounced by all that expect Preferment in the Church of England and I do not see how any man who conceives himself bound by it can be a faithful Subject to His Prince besides there seems to be a signal judgment in it that the Covenant which was used as an Engine to remove the Cavaleers out of their Livings should have the same effect upon the Contrivers and ●igid Imposers of it for many of those were undon because they would not take it these because they would not Renounce it Nec lex est justior ulla Quam necis artifices arte perire sua 'T is Justice Law that he should feel the smart Who was first Author of that cruel Art I remember what Tacitus sayes of Cajus Vibius Eò immitior quia toleraverat And 't is like that the Cavileers having such a hard measure from the imposition of the Covenant would when power was in their hands make use of the Law of Retaliation by driving on the Act for Renouncing the Covenant and peradventure in some men there might be a grain or more of the Spirit of Revenge not beseeming Christian Charity how ever 't is a remarkable peice of Divine Providence that those who Pressed the Covenant upon their Brethren without mercy should suffer by it without mercy Dub. But as long as men have so little of a Christian spirit in them as to act by the Law of Retaliation of Spite and Revenge there is little of Peace and Unity to be expected Firm. We ought not to judge Acts of Parliament to be the Efforts of Revenge and Spite as for the Act about the Covenant there was some kind of necessity for it as to make tryal who were Loyal and Obedient Subjects who not for as 't was said before he that conceives himself bound by the Scotc●-Chaine cannot be a good English Subject However if the Suspending of that Act would assuredly unite us in Love and Peace I hartily wish that 't were not prest upon those that are of a quiet and peaceable Spirit agreeing with us in the most necessary Points of Religion that so we that have one Faith one Baptisme one Hope one Lord Iesus Christ one God the Father of all might keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of Peace which is both our duty and our interest if we consider what advantage the Papists make of those divisions which are too many amongst us the Seeds whereof have been Sown by the Roman-Emissarys Dub. 'T is not to be doubted but that peace and unity and love among our selves would much dishearten those restless Enemies of our Church and State who le●ve no Stone unturn'd to divide us that they might Reign over us and perswade us by their most cogent Arguments which are Gun-Powder Fire and Fagot Bloody Massacres to embrace their gross Superstition and cause Religion and Primitive Christianity to flourish in our miserable divided Nation while that time which is now spent in vain wranglements and un-Christian contentions would be better imploy'd in devout Prayer Holy Meditation in Mortification of our Corruptions in duties of Piety towards Almighty God of Love Mercy and Charity one towards another And now Sir give me leave to pay you my very hearty acknowledgments for the profitable pains which you have taken to bring me out of those Bracks and Bogs of Atheisme Infidelity Schisme and Heresy unto my Old Mother the Church of Engl●nd in whose Faith and Communion Thou O Father of Mercies Prince of Peace and God of all Consolation ever blessed and most Sacred Trinity ● grant that I may continue unto ●y Lives end and that I may so continue I beg your daily Prayers Firm. 'T is our great Christian duty to Pray one for another I shall not be wanting in the performance of it for your establishment in the true Ancient Catholick Christianity and I earnestly beseech you to remember me in your frequent intercessions and supplications at the Throne of Grace Blessed be the God of all power and wisdome who has thus prosper'd my weak endeavours in converting you from the error of your waies I will ad no more but this that you be true to the Doctrine Worship Discipline of our Church as they are contain'd in the Articles Liturgie Canons and Rubricks of it hold not any truth in Unrighteousness let your practise shew to the World that you truly and heartily believe what you profess be honest just in your Dealings towards men Temperate and Sober towards your selfe serious and single hearted in all duties of piety towards God and whatsoever things are honest whatsoever things are true whatsoever things are just Holy Lovely of good report Think on these things Practise these things make not the actions of men the Customs and Examples of these loose and evil Times humane Laws your rule to walk by but let the holy will and word of God be the adequate measure of your Life and Conversation walk conscientiously according to this rule and Peace and Mercy shalll be upon you as a true Israelite and one of Gods Peculiar People Amen FINIS ERRATA PAge 9. l. 11. read Dependent p. 12. l. 10. for puting r. putting p. 21. for their r. there p. 22. l. 3. leave our whether they be Pagans or Christians I know not p. 38. l. 12. for Statues r. statutes p. 70 l. 26. ● some of the Church p. 83. l. 12. for suspition r. superstition p. 104. l. 20. potius ad bene esse quam simpliciter ad esse is misplaced p. 113. ●r ● ●ot ●ankfulness p. 116.25 r. licence p. 119. l. 22. r. clear p. 121. l. 25. ● who was of p. 123. l. 22. r. incorporated p. 126. l. 28. r that have ruled well p. 129. l. 13. r. stiled p. 132. l 29. r. that sit at the Stern p. 133. l. 22. r. but not the end p. 136. l. ● r. throw away p. 138. l. 19. r. by phansies p 140. l. 30. r. assistance p. 155. l. 15. r. ●●t●rio●sly ibid. 2● 1 suspension p. 1●5 l. ●3 r. suspensions † Dr. Moors Antidote and Dr. Stillings●eets Orig. Sacrae p●g 395. R. B. C●●visse videas crescere non vides see Mr. Pools Nullity of the Roman Faith Cen●●l 〈◊〉 S●ss 12. C●n. 1. Non imagini s●d numini sacrificamus Ae Mr Fowes History 2 Cor. 10.4 Prov. 24. Eccle. 8.2 Rom. 13.1 Pet. 2. Ier. 4.2 Deut. 6.13 Heb. 6.16 2. Cor. 1. Rev. 10.6 1 Cor. 1.14 Act. 2. Math. 28. 1. Cor. 9. ●po● 2.3 † 'T was not long since that some of the Presbyterian a●d I●pendent perswasion were Deans and Ca●ons of Christ Church in Oxford such D●gnities not then thought to be useless and A●●i-christian why should they be esteemed so now