Independency accused By nine severall ARGUMENTS Written by a godly learned Minister to a Member of Mr. JOHN GOODWINS CONGREGATION AND Acquitted by severall REPLYES to the said ARGUMENTS by a Member of the same CHURCH In both which sweetnesse of spirit and soundnesse of Arguments have been endeavoured GALAT. 6.1 Brethren if a man be overtaken in a fault yee which are spirituall restore such a one in the spirit of meeknesse considering thy self lest thou also be tempted Published according to Order LONDON Printed for Henry Overton in Popes-head Alley 1645. To the Reverend my deare and loving Pastor Mr JOHN GOODWIN Pastor of the Church in Colemanstreet Deare and reverend Sir YOur favourable acceptance of my present pains and candid construction of engaging my self therein is my humble request by my present addresse whereof though mine own insufficiency might beget my suspicion yet the knowledge of your love which thinketh no evill gives me satisfaction for although the piety and parts of my ingenious Antagonist did challenge an opponent of sutable endowments and renders me presumptuous for my attempt therein unworthy to be named in competition with him yet the perfect knowledge of your pressing pains of severall kindes in the work of the Lord stopping the mouth which otherwaies would have begg'd your own labours in this present businesse together with the requests of some of our friends prest mee hereunto wherin if I have not prejudiced the Cause I plead for distasted you nor dishonoured God but though in the least measure have further'd the truth it is the highest ambition and greatest reward of The unworthiest to be numbred amongst your flock J. P. To the Reader Christian Reader VNity in judgement amongst the Saints is the promised blessing of another age but Unity in affection is our present duty confessed by all though the practice hereof be the care of few witnesse the bitter pens and railing lines of men professing the feare of God each against his brother i' th faith to the scandall of Religion and scorne of Profession dishonour of God and disgrace of the Gospel the joy of the Jesuite and hazard of the kingdome the stumbling of others coming into the paths of life seeing them trac'd with Lions and Bears and Wolves and Tygres in stead of Lambs and Doves the meek Saints of the most high God as if they had gotten a speciall dispensation in this present age to slander the persons traduce the actions reproach the names of their dearest brethren to fight the Lords battels with the Devils weapons and to trample under foot that royall Law of their liege Lord This is my commandement that you love one another â—oh 13.33 In this present Discourse thou shalt not observe allowance afforded to humane frailty the least tincture of that unchristian strain the minde of the Lord and truth of Christ being the mutuall designe of my opponent and my self I have not altered one word of his Letter only whereas he writ it entire I have presented thee with each Argument and immediate Replies with a different character between the one and the other for thy more distinct apprehension of both I say no more but prove and approve and the Lord direct thy heart into the knowledge and love of the truth I. P. My deare Friend YOu are not ignorant how respectfull and reverent I have carryed my self towards the Congregationall Way almost ever since you knew mee and daily am both praying and reading that I may be fully perswaded in mine own heart whether that or the other Way called Presbyterian bâ— the Way of God For this end I have given my self to the perusall of Mr. Goodwins Theomachia and his justification of it against Mr. Prynne and so farre as my judgment reaches he gets the better of him but yet some doubts I have to which I cannot pick answers out of both his books I dare not be guilty of that which hee so much pleads against blind obedience implicit faith I must not take up Religion by the lumps as once Mr. Thomas Goodwin said I must not pin my faith upon the sleeve of any person or persons upon earth though never so holy or learned as not knowing whither they may carry it the best of men are but men at best both God and men will expect from me that I be able to render a Scripturall Reason of my faith and conscience and therefore I request you earnestly to improve your interest in some friend you know I have no acquaintance with any Divine of that Way to communicate their light to mee in the following particulars and doubtlesse it will be an addition to my charitablenesse towards that Way if not quite pull me into 't for 't is my full purpose of heart to sall down before the truth when I meet it and know it I will be their's what ere come on 't that I find to have not the strangest hand but argument Deare Sir THe spirit of sobriety and Christian moderation doth so sweetly look through your lines casting such a gracious aspect of meeknesse humility with all lovely and Christian ingenuity and modesty that upon the first reading thereof I desired to ingage my self into your Christian acquaintance and to return an answer being desired hereunto according to my judgement unto your Letter being much encouraged by the spirit of your writing which promiseth mee a candid and an ingenuous interpretation of my mean indeavours and as the first fruits thereof I shall humbly desire these things of you First That you will please to passe by what you observe weak and wanting whereof you may find more then enough and to bestow your more serious considerations upon any thing if such a thing can be found which you may judge more valid the purest gold may be found in the grossest earth and arguments for truth are oftentimes like neighbours in their vicinity the poor weak and insufficient have the rich able and more sufficient for their support and comfort truth is welcome to a gracious heart though evidenced but by one or two sound arguments when many shall say Lo it is here or there and cannot shew it Secondly That you would be a Midwife to any argument which you judge pregnant and which hath truth in the belly thereof having strength to conceive but not to bring forth surely the sons of truth cannot but help the truth in straits which often suffers through the great insufficiencie of the abettors thereof the hearts of the Saints sometimes can better defend the truth discovered then their tongues or pens a nimble wit and learned head prove not alwayes the truths friend but Sir I do not prejudge you Thirdly That if we cannot agree in this truth yet wee may love one another in the truth let this be written in letters of gold upon the foreheads of all the Saints HOLINES TO THE LORD AND LOVE TO THE BRETHREN Faith and Love are the golden pillars supporting the hearts of the
hee saw the Saints that sprung up under his Doctrine is the Gospell or Protestant Religion the worse therefore An â—as for the other part of your rule of triall the making of Factions let the Magistrate spare none where it is found no upon his perill and as he will answer it before the Lord let him not spare any for this indeed is the main end of his authority to keep the people committed unto him in peace and to be a nursing father unto the Church if any be in his dominion but who are these Faction-makers surely not the meek in the earth the weapons of whose warfare are arguments reasons and Scripture and who would have men be at peace with all men not men that are gentle sofe striving only with the cords of a man viz. reason and understanding and not with the whips of Horses and the goads of Oxen. Were not the Bishops a factious generation And wherein did it appeare was it not by their insinuations into the Magistracie to have their Wayes maintained urged and prest upon men by a law by fines imprisonments banishments whips and pillories by procuring Lawes and Canons Decrees and Injunctions to presse men against the truth their judgements and consciences unto obedience thereof and hath not this State-troubling generation raised up and kindled that consuming fire that is like now to devour the kingdome Well if this evill spirit of distraction contention and faction be found in the Congregationall party let not the eye of the Magistrate spare them but let him take heed that he do not condemne the innocent and justifie the guilty Now the Lord in mercy conjure that spirit of Faction where ever it be found and give the Magistracie of this poor kingdome wisdome to observe where it is and prevent all dangers thereby that this distressed Nation may flourish in truth and peace The Conclusion THese are the Arguments or doubts that for the present I desire some satisfaction in that my judgement and conscience may be settled Let it not be thought that I am making a party against them or that I think my Arguments cannot be answered I am better perswaded of their holinesse and abilities then to think they will take up any opinions but they can satisfie any equall minded man that asks them a reason of such their faith nor yet let it be thought that I have followed these objections with a spirit that intends not to receive satisfaction I call him to witnesse before whose Tribunall I and all the purposes of my heart must stand naked one day for to be judged my very heart if I understand mine own heart stands open to receive all the truths of God whoever brings them with what externall inconveniences soever they come accompanied I have urged my doubts it may be thought with somewhat too much earnestnesse and heat I am sure with all singlenesse of heart aiming at nothing but to know more of the mind and Way of God that God may be more glorified in me Grace be with us all Your true friend to love and serve you and yours in Christ Jesus c. REPLY THese are the Answers which for the present I humbly return unto your Arguments which I must confesse again have been tendered with more sweetnesse and candidnesse of language phrase and expression then ever yet I did reade any arguments of this nature before wherein if I have shewed that which is indeed mine own viz. weaknesses insufficiencies and mistakes I hope the power of Christ in you viz. the spirit of love will cover them all and here again I must renue my former request viz. the letting slip if any thing be weake and your more serious thoughts upon that which is more valid and considerable to presume your satisfaction would be too great ambition though to assure my self of your acceptation is my perfect confidence Sir I leave what I have here tendered unto your prudent consideration desiring the Almighty to leade us all into the wayes of truth and peace knitting our hearts together in love and so guiding us by his counsels to bring us to his glory which is the hearty prayers Sir Of yours in all Christian love and sincerity J. P. FINIS
his power for they must be stopped REPLY FIrst whereas the Apostle tels Titus that such unruly talkers and deceivers mouths must be stopt it is cleer that it is Titus that must stop them for otherwayes the Apostle writes unto him to no purpose and hee directs him likewise which way hee should stop their mouths viz. vers 13. Rebuke them sharply that they may be sound in the faith and in the first verse of the next Chapter but speak thou the things which become sound doctrine and verse the 8th he saith of sound speech that it cannot be condemned Surely in that sense that Titus may be said to hinder them from condemning sound speech he may be said to stop their mouths you know in Scripture language a mans mouth is said to be stopt when he is not able to gain-say the power of reason and arguments that are opposed unto him So Luke 21.15 Christ promiseth his Disciples to give them a mouth and wisdome which all their adversaries should not be able to gain-say nor resist that is which shall stop their mouths viz. argumentatively So Acts 6.10 Stephen so spake that the Cyrenians and Alexandrians were not able to resist the wisdome and spirit by which hee spake So Matth. 22.34 Christ is said to put the Sadduces to silence that is to stop their mouths and vers 46. the Pharisees likewise were not able to answer him a word and to name no more places 1 Pet. 2.5 the will of God is that by well doing wee should put to silence the ignorance of foolish men You know there is nothing doth more open their mouths then the well doing of the Saints but they open not their mouths like men so here their mouths must be stopt viz. by Titus his sound words this I humbly conceive is as cleer as the day and to make it so you have the same phrase Rom. 3.19 that every mouth must be stopped Secondly whereas you say that that which Church-censure could not do was left to the power and providence of God to subdue and master and supply the office of a Magistrate I answer that though it was left to the power and providence of God to subdue and master yet that this was to supply the office of a Magistrate is but petitio principii and therefore your inference that now when God hath blest a Christian Commonwealth with Christian Magistrates hee must stop their mouths is likewise taken before given Thirdly if by stopping their mouths you mean directly according to the literall sense of the words the Magistrate neither can stop their mouths except he will cut out their tongues or sow up their lips c. for they will be speaking where ever they are ARGUM. V. GAlat 5.11 12. There were some that preached circumcision and Christ together this hotch potch-doctrine much prevailed exceedingly troubled the Churches and Paul sighs and gromes out this wish I would they were cut off that trouble you The question is what kinde of cutting off hee means is it by Church-censure then hee might soone have eased himself and the Churches of them himself might have excommunicated them as he did Hymeneus and Alexander 1 Time 1.20 or commanded the Churches when they had been gathered together and his spirit with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ to have delivered such up unto Satan 1 Cor. 5.4 5. but this hee did not on if hee did it would not serve his and the Churches turn he and they still groan under the misery of false Teachers therefore it must be meant of a cutting off by some speciall extraordinary providence of God their destruction by the divine hand of justice Whence I think this note may genuinely be collected The Church of God may be pestered with false Teachers which no Church-censure will so cut off as that they can be freed of them and therefore the civill Magistrate by his power God having left off extraordinary manifostations of justice against his and his Churches enemies must cut them off and not suffer the Churches to be troubled and sowred with the leaven of their doctrine REPLY I Answer by cutting off there you suppose not to be meant Church-censure and you give reasons for it but you think it was some speciall extraordinary providence of God in bringing to passe their destruction and I think so too though it may be meant also of Church-censure which the Apostle could have wished might have been done but the state of those Churches could not beare it but for that you infer that because now Church-censure cannot reach them therefore the civill Magistrate by his power God having left off extraordinary manifestations of justice against his and his Churches enemies must cut them off and not suffer the Churches to be leavened and sowred with such leaven of their doctrine But Sir I humbly deny your inference for if Magistrates have a lawfull power to supply the extraordinary instances of justice which God hathgiven in the punishment of sin if I say Magistrates have a power thus to do in your sense why then the Magistrate should kill and destroy liers because God by an extraordinary stroke of justice did kill Ananias and Saphira Acts 5. for telling a lie the Magistrate should destroy men for sleeping at hearing the Word because Eutychus by an extraordinary hand of divine justice fell down dead from an upper loft where hee was sleeping when hee should be hearing the Word of God Acts 20. Nay which is more absurd Magistrates should then omit the execution of justice upon more notorious sinners and destroy the lesse guilty sinners yea and should be at an uncertainty herein because Gods justice hath reached some and spared others guilty of the same sins yea much greater which I presume you will judge absurd for the Magistrate is to execute justice according to a known just law and not according to the example of God who may destroy for an idle thought if hee pleaseth ARGUM. VI. REv. 2. God has something to say against the Church in Pergamos because shee had those that taught the doctrine of Balaam and these also that held the doctrine of the Nicolaitans i. they had them still their mouths open teaching these doctrines not suppressed not taken out of the way And something he had against the Churches in Thyatira because they suffered that woman Jezabel to teach and seduce his servants either those that actually were his servants or those that possibly for ought they knew might have been his servants her they should not have suffered to have taught and spread her infectious errors though doubtlesse shee being a Prophetesse was able to have said much for her Way and would have pleaded conscience too yet 't is a charge drawn up against them that she is suffered and to mee it seemes by the Antithesis to run thus vers 22. Behold as if hee had said though you have failed in the execution of justice upon her yet behold I will cast her
into great tribulation and will kill her and her children with death I will not suffer her I will not faile in doing justice upon her and her children as you sinfully have done Church-censure only would not have bindered her from teaching but shee was not to have been suffered to teach therefore a further power ought to have come in for the suppression of her and her followers REPLY FIrst I humbly conceive that Church-censures if duly and timely performed would have prevented this reproofe both to the one Church and the other and the neglect hereof or which is worse the not suppressing these false doctrines by a powerfull preaching against the same was the ground of these sharp and bitter reproofs and my Reason is this it is evident they had not the help of the Magistrate therein for in respect of the politicall state it is said of the Church of Pergamus that shee dwelt where Satan had his seat or throne and where Antipas Gods faithfull servant suffered martyrdome so that they had no help in that respect from the Magistrate and if so I suppose you will not say the Church could imprison banish c. so that I presume their neglect must be of something which was in the power of the Church And Secondly whereas you say Church-censures would not have hindered these proceedings in the Church I humbly conceive the contrary because if the Church officers and members had examined these doctrines as they ought and upon the finding of them erronious had proceeded to censure them in case they would not forbeare the promulgation thereof from that time the Church was not to permit them to preach any more amongst them neither should they give them any more hearing Thirdly If a means sanctified by God to an end do not alwayes effect it wee may not therefore devise another Magistracy doth not suppresse all vice ARGUMENT VII MOst evident it is that the civill Magistrate in the Commonwealth of Israel was supreme in things Ecclesiastic ill 1 Chro. 15. David assembles all Israel to Jerusalem gives the Priests and Levites their charge orders the things of the Ark of God vers 1. to 18. 2 Chron. 15. It s said King Asa took courage and put away the abominable Idols and renewed the Altar of the Lord and made a Covenant and whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death whether great or small man or woman Now let it be showne where God took this power from the civill Magistrate under the new Testament why the Magistrate has not as much power or the same power in matters Ecclesiasticall as then hee had 'T is true the Apostles were very silent and close in giving the civill Magistrate his just power in things spirituall but I conceive this closeness of theirs was their prudence and that in these two respects 1. There was no Magistrate then but Heathonish or Jewish and so understood not Gods will in his worship and so had any thing been commanded it had been but a oarnall commandement humane which Christians must have refused and therefore 't was not their wisdome to speak or write much to this point lest it had proved a snare 2. Had they spoken much of a Christian Magistrate that should have power in things civill and Ecclesiasticall and be able to defend Christianity against all it's enemies this would have bred jealousies in the Roman State and Christian Churches would have been looked upon as a conspiring trayterous generation and persecutions would have soon been raised up against them It was the Apostles wisdome to keep Cesars head free from jealousies that so the Churches might enjoy Christ and their consciences the better therefore they spake so little of the Christian Magistrate in things civill and Ecclesiasticall well knowing that after-ages would not be at a losse or stand in this point but might look upon the examples of the godly Kings of Israel for their imitation never being repealed and in David Josiah Asa might see what was their right and just power in matters both of Church and State REPLY FIrst it is not to be denyed but that the civill Magistrates in the Commonwealth of Israel were supreme in things Ecclesiasticall but upon such grounds and reasons as were peculiar unto them and therefore not presidentiall for Christian Magistrates under the Gospel except upon the same or the like grounds For First the godly Kings of Israel and Judah were types of Christ thus David whom you instance it is said of him Psal 75.3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved I beare up the pillars therof which is true only of Jesus Christ the antitype who laid the foundations of the earth Heb. 1.10 and upholdeth all things by the word of his power vers 3. Now when the antitype is come into the world Jesus Christ in the room of his father David the law henceforth is to proceed from his lips and the government is to be upon his shoulders and of his Kingdome there shall be no end Isa 9.6 7. So Moses was a chief magistrate unto Israel unto whom they were to hearken untill Christ whom he did typifie was come and of him he saith himself Deuter. 18.15 A Prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you like unto me him shall you heare in all things whatsoever hee shall say unto you And it shall come to passe that whosoever shall not heare that Prophet that soul shall be destroyed from among the people Acts 3.22 23. The Kings of Israel and Judah whom you mention are types of Christs kingly office Christ therefore being come the types are gone for though kings of Commonwealths may be of a morall consideration and so perpetuall yet kings as the head of the Church in things Ecelesiasticall were types and therefore abolished and by the same argument as you will maintain the power of Christian kings over the Churches of God in things meerly Ecclesiasticall from the examples of the kings of Israel and Judah who were types of Christ by the same arguments may the Pope maintain a chief Priesthood under the Gospel after the example of Aaron and the rest of that order successively Secondly the godly kings of Israel and Judah were directed by the infallible mouth of God and guidance of his Spirit even in these Ecclesiasticall businesses and thus David whom you in stance to give the Priests and Levites their charge 1 Chron. 15. if you look into 1 Chron. 28.12 he had his direction from the Spirit of God and vers 19. David professeth that the Lord made him understand all the work of this pattern When you can prove such an infallible guidance and direction by the Spirit of God in matters of Church-government to be the portion of Christian kings under the Gospel there may be some colour in this argument Thirdly The kings of Israel were Elders of one ministeriall congregation for the whole Church and State were so as is
Saints together in the spirit of which love I come to your arguments Fourthly That no case is so cleer but some question may be raised about it to which present satisfaction may not be given it is sufficient if the main things things be justified ARGUMENT I. LEt it be granted that the Churches in the Apostles time were Congregationall for all nationall profession in the world was either Jewish or Heathenish yet if they were to be the president of the form of Church-ordering and government for ever under the Gospell how could all the Churches the Apostles had constituted up and down the world yea and all particular Christians be so corrupted as to suffer the government and worship of God to be taken from them so easily as that none that I can heare of are found upon record to have stood up for Christ and the truth but Nationall-Church-government was brought in and we cannot learn that there was any scuffle on contestation against it I do not think there can be named one truth of God that Antichrist or any other Heretique fought against but t is possible with a little search or study to name those peâ—sons that disputed or wâ—it on suffered in the defence of it and stood in the gap to keep out the error only in this all the Christian Churches in the world suffer'd the government of Christ which is so deare to the heart of a Saint to be destroyed and a false Antichristian government and worship to be obtruded on them and all sides are silent in the businesse Where is the Scribe is there no Disputer no Martyr to be found what not one that retained any spark of zeal for Christ that after ages could speak of either oâ—th approbation or detestation for willingly suffering shame spoyling of goods banishment death rather then Christ should be pull'd down in his worship and a Nationall false Church-government set up in the roome of it I cannot but wonder that all Christian Churches should fall at once into such a dead sleep to suffer the evill One thus to pluck up and thus to plant or else if their eyes were open I cannot but call it the greatest piece of cow ardise that ever the Churches of Christ were guilty of to stand idle speechlesse spectators by where was the valour of their faith Heb. 11.33 34. Or if they did dispute and suffer for it I cannot but think it the greatest unfaithfulnesse and oversight the Churches were ever guilty of not to transmit the story to posterity REPLY FIrst this Argument impleadeth Presbyterie as well as Congregationall government for where read we of sufferers for Presbytery Secondly To come more directly to the point you grant the Churches constituted by the Apostles Congregationall now if wee shew this practice of theirs was intended as a pattern for us and so taken by the most Primitive Churches we hope your demand will be satisfied though wee could not distinctly shew you why none appeared in the defence of it of which anon First God and nature do nothing in vain was the saying of the ancient Naturalists the Spirit of God did so distinctly set down the manner of the constitution of the Jewish Church by Moses that posterity may have a distinct pattern as wel as a rule to walk by the Holy Ghost hath to some purpose surely so punctually noted the manner of gathering and governing the Churches planted by the Apostles and what can this purpose be but our imitation in things lawfull and possible for all in the new as well as in the old Testament are written for our learning and follow me saith the Apostle and that by way of forbearing and negatively as by way of doing and affirmatively that is wee may not do what they did not when they might and the nature of the thing seemed to require it as the subjecting particular Churches to a combination of Elders which should have ordinary authority over the severall Congregations which they might have done as well as to keep up the government in one city which they did and as well as the Church of France at this day though under persecution yet keep their government and when by reason of the paucity of believers and the temptation of persecution they had much need of the help of government and no hinderance why they might not seeing though by reason of persecution they might have been hindered for a time and in some places yet the rule of such a government if it had been the will of God had been usefull and though they had been disturbed in one place yet it would have been exercised in some other this was a sufficient argument for God to use Jer. 7.31 they did which I commanded them not and for the Apostle Heb. 7.14 of which Moses spake nothing Ergo God intended it not And so affirmatively what they did for substance we must Hence Gualter in the end of his Comment on the Acts sayes they are not to be listened unto that tell us the way and practice of the Apostles in constituting Churches is not a pattern for us to follow Secondly The Churches in the first and second hundred yeers after Christ did take the Apostles practice for their pattern and therefore every Church did transact all their ordinary affaires within themselves as admission of members choyce and ordination of officers excommunication of scandalous persons deposition of their officers where just cause was in difficult cases indeed they used the counsell and help of other Churches but as being ingaged thereunto only out of the bond of mutuall love and fellowship not of necessity or subjection and where any Church was more famous for gifts numbers Ministers c. to these they gave the greater respects and did more depend upon their guidance till this voluntary and occasionall office of love became a custome viz. for the lesser and obscurer Churches to do nothing without the greater and for the greater to exercise inspection and some kinde of jurisdiction towards the lesser by way of charge and office till in the third Century it was by the Councel of Nice established by a Canon for a Church-law at which time Antichrist had made much progresse towards his usurpation For proof of all which I shall shew you some of the words of the Centurie Writers touching this Argument and first of the constitution of Churches planted by the Apostles 1. Câ—nt lib. 2. cap. 7. de gubernatione Ecclestitul de consociatione c. If it be said these consisted of many congregations and so were Presbyteriall I answer it cannot be proved they were so secondly nor disproved that they were one congregation because we reade so often both in Scripturall and Ecclesiasticall story that they had one Eldership not severall over them and that they all met upon one great occasion together as upon the choice or deposition of Ministers excommunication of members c. and if they did meet in severall places yet having one